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[polly7]

This message was self-deleted by its author (polly7) on Sun Sep 7, 2014, 02:47 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[TexasProgresive]

1. K&R

Raising the truth about Israeli policies towards Palestine will gain you few friends here.

[oberliner]

2. "Raising the truth about Israeli policies towards Palestine will gain you few friends here."

Totally not true.

In reality, speaking positively about Israel is the way to lose friends on DU.

[Israeli]

3. like this polly7.....

Denying the truth, and calling Shulamit Aloni a liar, will not gain any respect from the Israeli Left towards American Zionists like yourself and shira and co. oberliner ....

from the article :

This is nowhere more apparent than in the case of “road apartheid” (which was not practised in South Africa) in the West Bank which establishes separate but substantially unequal road networks for Jewish settlers and Palestinians, without any clear legal basis and without any notice of reservation of the kind that South Africa used to reserve separate parks, buses, beaches, and other public amenities for exclusively white occupation. (p. 897)

Today it is clear that security is at best a secondary justification for the wall. Its primary purpose is the annexation of land in the West Bank and East Jerusalem that accommodates Jewish settlements…. Israel’s wall and its associated infrastructure of gates and permanent checkpoints reveal an intention to impose a system of permanent enclaves in which residence and passage are determined by racial identities–within the context of the occupation while it persists, and ultimately facilitating the annexation of large swathes of the West Bank. This will leave for Palestinians, at best, the possibility of a Bantustan-type state in the remaining reserves. (p. 900)

The West Bank, for Palestinians, is…reduced to a series of dismembered enclaves. (p. 901)

[azurnoir]

4. Good map n/t

[shira]

5. You said yourself Olmert's offer in 2008 was good & the Palestinians should have accepted it...

There would be no "bantustans" right now and Palestine would be celebrating it's 5 year anniversary free of occupation and settlements.

So why do you think the Palestinians refused, and do you hold them accountable for their current situation given their missed opportunities over the decades to be ruling their own land, controlling their own fate?

[Israeli]

6. we have been thru all this before shira ....

so instead of wasting my time repeating myself to someone whoes only interest is in blaming the Palestinians for the continuation of the occupation of their lands ,... I give you two links :

http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=32646

THE PROMISE was great, the delivery far from the words. Olmert did establish two tracks of direct negotiations. One track was between himself and Palestinian President Abbas. The second track led by Tzipi Livni and former Palestinian prime minister Abu Ala`. It was widely reported that Olmert and Abbas developed a close rapport, and that great progress was made. The closest confidants of both sides admit that nothing was put in writing. In the end, Olmert presented a `take it or leave it` deal to Abbas which was not the product of a negotiated agreement, but more like the same arrogant approach taken by Ehud Barak in Camp David in July 2000. The deal that he offered Abbas could not be accepted by any Palestinian leader anywhere because it failed to include a permanent status arrangement that recognizes Palestinian Jerusalem as the capital of the Palestinian state. Without this there will never be peace with the Palestinians.

On negotiations with Abbas, Olmert`s grade is: failure! Olmert also blocked an agreement on the Livni-Abu Ala` track as well. On this track they were working on drafting an agreement. Progress was made, but the gaps were still too wide to be completed by the end of Olmert`s term.

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1285935459

Amid all this clamor, Olmert has found the time and the energy for the speech at the Geneva Initiative meeting, in which he described in detail his efforts to achieve peace with the Palestinians. With the help of his two forefingers, he asserted that peace had been very close, and that a full and final agreement could be achieved now. Thus he adopted a position that is far to the left of that renowned leftist, Yossi Beilin.

From the practical political point of view, the speech carries little weight. The public is much more interested in his forged accounts and the dollar-stuffed envelopes that he received. The part of his speech in which he belabored Barak (“Ehud vs. Ehud”) completely overshadowed the part devoted to peace.

YET IT is worth taking notice of what he had to say. Especially since it comes from a person who grew up in a right-wing home and who has spent his whole career in right-wing parties.

For half an hour, speaking fluently without recourse to notes, Olmert dealt with the core issues of the negotiations with the Palestinians................

No one denies that he has very sharp political instincts. If a person with such ambitions proposes an agreement, it means that he is convinced that these positions are now accepted by the great majority.

That’s the reason I suggest taking a good look at Olmert’s fingertips.

If you want to learn shira read both links all the way through ....

This is the basics towards any agreement :.......

Putting an end to the occupation,

Accepting the right of the Palestinian people to establish an independent and sovereign State of Palestine in all the territories occupied by Israel in 1967,

Reinstating the pre-1967 "Green Line" as the border between the State of Israel and the State of Palestine (with possible minor exchanges of territories agreed between the parties); the border will be open for the free movement of people and goods, subject to mutual agreement.

Establishing Jerusalem as the capital of the two states, with East Jerusalem (including the Haram al-Sharif) serving as the capital of Palestine and West Jerusalem (including the Western Wall) serving as the capital of Israel. The city is to be united on the physical and municipal level, based on mutual agreement.

Recognizing in principle the Right of Return of the Palestinian refugees, allowing each refugee to choose freely between compensation and repatriation to Palestine and Israel, and fixing by mutual agreement the number of refugees who will be able to return to Israel in annual quotas, without undermining the foundations of Israel.

Safeguarding the security of both Israel and Palestine by mutual agreement and guarantees.

Striving for overall peace between Israel and all Arab countries and the creation of a regional union.

Source: http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/about/aims/

When we have a PM that is willing to accept the above then and only then will we have a two state solution shira ....so how is Bibi doing ????

[azurnoir]

7. what strikes me again and again here

is that for some the word peace and Palestinians are opposites-we see all the 'defensible borders and "rockets raining on Tel Aviv " stuff but it doesn't seem to compute that a final agreement is just that a final agreement
Now of course the Gaza withdrawal will be endlessly coughed up as an example, but that was not a final or even partial agreement, as nothing really was agreed to

[Israeli]

8. probably because over in America you are more tuned into our Right wing azurnoir..

The " Gaza withdrawal " was one hell of a blow to the settler movement and to the advocates of a " Greater Israel " ......to this day they have never gotten over it or stopped whining about it .

Put the Palestinians aside .....for us it was retribution , revenge for Rabin's assassination and thanks for not having to send our kids to defend the messianic madmen of the Gush .
Arik became our hero ...thus the rise of Kadima .

It was the time of the ' Ribbon Wars ' .... Blue versus Orange , see :
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0808/p09s01-coop.html

Memories from then .... our kids being called Nazis and Kapos , spat upon, threatened and physically assaulted .

Then came Amona .

Bibi knows we have never forgiven him for his part in the incitement that led to Rabin's assassination .... he knows how we feel about the messianic madmen of the Wild West Bank .

He is walking a tight rope between us, the settlers , the Palestinians , Obama and world opinion......something has to give .

[azurnoir]

12. I think in America we probably hear more about who is leading the country

and unfortunately right now in Israel it is the Rightwing party(s) that have control, that is not to say the Left does not exist in Israel but with regard to international relations it plays a relatively minor role

that said I think you misunderstood my comment about Gaza, I was speaking of this little corner of internet-DU I/P albeit the very same excuses and justifications for a continued occupation and future domination of the West Bank by Israel using Gaza as the go to example are endemic to virtually all 'ProIsrael' talking points

[Israeli]

13. yes, that is what I thought ...

I think in America we probably hear more about who is leading the country

Thank goodness for the internet then .

Thought you might be interested in this :

http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=61645

All roads lead back to Amona

the very same excuses and justifications for a continued occupation and future domination of the West Bank by Israel using Gaza as the go to example are endemic to virtually all 'ProIsrael' talking points

Classic Right wing rhetoric azurnoir ......are you surprised ?

[King_David]

16. You use the term "ProIsrael' as if it's a bad thing,

Are you saying the Israeli left is not ProIsrael' ?

BULLSHIT !

Maybe you and your 29 posterior -Zionist cult are not but you are not anything like the Israeli left at all...

J-Street in the USA has been fighting and denying the accusation that they are not 100% ProIsrael' since their existence .

Sorry to break the news to you but your Passé -Zionist clan of a few dozen members are the marginal insignificant view of a tiny small cult of people who long for the days of communism.
And hardly anyone has heard of this "book-club , cofee and cake party of yours.

[Israeli]

17. I did not use the term .....

I was quoting azurnoir .

Either you cannot read, or you need an ophthalmologist, or you are lacking basic intelligence
King_David .

We are not communists and we are not a " tiny cult " and I'm not suprised you have never heard of us .... you know next to nothing about the Israeli Left King_David .

This is probably what you grew up with :.....

http://jtf.org/israel/israel.jewish.civil.war.part.three.htm

If you notice they also call us " the Bolsheviks " like you do .

See how they describe themselves as Jews and us as " The evil, self-hating Israeli people ".

I quote for you :

At Amona, for the first time in modern Jewish history, right-wing Jewish youth fought back against the self-hating Israeli Bolsheviks. Thousands of Jewish youth heroically resisted the expulsion at Amona.

Of course, the battle of Amona was very lopsided in favor of the Bolshevik expellers. Thousands of soldiers and police came to carry out a pogrom against 5,000 unarmed Jews, most of them teenage boys and girls. The police used horses to run over unarmed demonstrators. The police attacked the Jewish teenagers with large clubs. Policemen beat and sexually assaulted 15 year old Jewish girls.

Israeli Bolshevik dictator Ehud Olmert announced before Amona that he had ordered the army and the police to destroy three more Hilltop Youth outposts in the second week of February. But after Amona, the scheduled destruction of the three outposts was postponed indefinitely because of the "unexpectedly strong resistance" met by the police and armyin Amona, to use the words of the government spokesmen who were interviewed by the Bolshevik newspaper Maariv.

What does fighting back in this civil war mean? When Bolshevik soldiers and police come to a Jewish community to violently expel its residents and its defenders, the residents and the defenders have not only the right, but the obligation, to defend themselves and to defend their fellow Jews with rocks, bricks, bottles and whatever else is available.

Last summer, during the expulsions of Gush Katif and northern Samaria, JTF and its Kahanist allies were only ones advocating the type of resistance that we finally witnessed on February 1 in Amona. Last summer, they called us "crazy" and "extremists." Few call us "crazy" now.

That is what we are fighting against haver ....and if it takes a civil war to remove these crazies ...then so be it .

Thus all roads lead to Amona.

[King_David]

18. "you are lacking basic intelligence "

Nice debating technique Moteknik ...

Not quite civil ...

[Israeli]

20. your debating technique...

is anything but " civil " King_David.

You want me to improve mine... I suggest you get your act together first .

Someone made a comment along the lines of your more of a court jester than a king ,
I agree with that .....mockery is all you have haver .

Try sticking to the subject under discussion ...If you dont have anything to add except nonsense then move on .

[King_David]

22. That's rich ,

But in case anyone thinks these "post Zionists or passé Zionists or Posterior Zionists or interim Zionists" ( I can't remember what you call this baking club)are anything but the tiny group of 26 people maximum or so... It needs pointing out...

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

38. In defense of Israeli...

First the ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you and then you win.

You seem to be caught in between 1 and 2 right now.

[King_David]

39. Ummm ok ,

Sounds deep and profound ..I guess..
( maybe to you )

[delrem]

19. So that's where shira gets it.

"Sacred Jewish Biblical lands were handed over to the Hamas-PLO Arab Muslim Nazis with little or no resistance from right-wing Jews."

(Dave: I want you to post a vid showing all those IDF soldiers with undone belts akimbo doing the macarena)

[King_David]

21. No clue what your going on about here,

Please explain .

Try unjumble and repost please.

[Israeli]

23. Really ??

No need to " unjumble and repost " delrem , I got it first time around

[King_David]

24. Cool,

Explain to the rest of us please and especially to me...

Cos being the one that it was addressed to I have no clue what he meant.

So was it mocking?
Derogatory?
Homophobic?

Explain the jumble please.

[pelsar]

9. nothing really was agreed to

do you really believe that?..that there was no agreement between the parties involved?

really?

[azurnoir]

10. oh yeah I forgot

Sharon said here it is take it or leave and Abbas said okay I guess that's an agreement of sorts

albeit the Jewish Virtual Library tells another story see the comment below

[pelsar]

14. so...

thats u r belief.... that there was no discussions at all about the evacuation

just asking for u r opinion....

[Israeli]

37. Inorder to understand the evacuation of Gush Katif azurnoir...

you need to understand Arik Sharon....what drove him and what was his reasoning behind it ,also what part did his relationship with George W Bush play in all of it ?

According to this map, Israel will annex the areas along the pre-1967 border as well as the Jordan valley, up to the "back of the mountain" (an expression particularly dear to Sharon). It will also annex several East-West strips to connect the Jordan valley with the Green Line. In these territories that are marked for annexation, Sharon created a dense net of settlements. That was his principal endeavor throughout the last thirty years, in all his diverse positions - Minister of Agriculture, Minister of Industry and Trade, Minister of Defense, Minister of Housing, Foreign Minister, Minister of Infrastructure, and Prime Minister - and this work is going on at this minute.

The Gaza strip is one of these enclaves. That is the real significance of the uprooting of the settlements and the withdrawal of the Israeli army. It is the first stage in the realization of the map: this small area, with a dense Palestinian population of a million and a quarter, was turned over to the Palestinians. The Israeli land, sea and air forces surround the strip almost completely. The very existence of its inhabitants depends at all times on the mercy of Israel, which controls all entrances and exits (except the Rafah crossing into Egypt, which is monitored by Israel from afar.) Israel can cut off the water and electricity supply at a moment's notice. Sharon intended to create the same situation in Hebron, Ramallah, Nablus, Jenin and the other areas.

He knew perfectly well that no Palestinian leader could possibly agree to his map, now or ever. That's why he did not intend to have any political negotiations with the Palestinians. His slogan was "we have no partner". He intended to realize all the stages of his plan "unilaterally", as he did in Gaza - without dialogue with the Palestinians, without considering their requirements and aspirations, and, of course, without seeking their consent.

Source : http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1136678803/

[azurnoir]

11. Here it is pelsar from the Jewish Virtual Library no agreement

Israel gave up all the territory it held in Gaza and evacuated some West Bank settlements without any agreement from the Palestinians, who now have complete authority over their population within Gaza.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/settlements.html

[pelsar]

15. except... i remember

discussions between israel and the PA about the greenhouses, i remember discussions about the israeli settlements, to keep them intack or to raze them...i remember discussions about the withdrawal and how to avoid any armed conflict....where all parties agreed to some kind of conclusion.

i recall agreements concerning the importing of goods, electricity, people, of the various border stations

i dont remember the PA showing any resistance to the idea of israeli pulling out, do you believe that the PA infact didnt agree to the pullout?

but there were lots of discussions, agreements on the process and the post withdrawal period.

perhaps you dont remember that period, but i sure do

[azurnoir]

25. so the Jewish Virtual Library is lying, is that what you're claiming?

but if memory serves apparently your 'idea' of an agreement is Israel saying here it is take or leave and the Palestinians saying okay or not?

There were no agreements pelsar

[pelsar]

26. no agreements……?

so you have no idea why the greenhouses were kept and not destroyed like the settlements?

you have no idea how suddenly all the kassams and attacks on israelis suddenly stopped during the pullout?

what there wasn't was a signing ceremony, there wasn't anything signed, there weren't any speeches….there was just actual events on the ground which in my world are far more important than any "words" or ceremonies and given the coordination between the PA, the hamas, islamic jihad, the IDF and the settlers, clearly there were agreements.

its just a matter of keeping ones eyes open and observing the actual events…

maybe its the definition of agreement that your having a problem with?

[azurnoir]

27. There were no agreements

the greenhouses were purchased for $14,000,000 mostly provided by Bill Gates, Israel apparently agreed to take the money is that the agreement you're talking about ?

[pelsar]

28. another teaching moment…check out the definition of agreement

there were greenhouses, there were houses, there were buildings, agricultural land, water systems…

since either you don't know, prefer not to know i shall teach:

greenhouses at first were discussed to be destroyed, and agreement was reached, where they would be purchased, left intact and some of the settlers were going to teach the gazans to use them. That is called an agreement. Water systems to those greenhouses were also left intact, the homes were flattened as the PA didn't want them, that too was part of the discussions between the PA and Israel, which led to a "AGREEMENT"

The kassams suddenly stopped being fired, despite the hundreds of israelis crowded in small areas. Obviously there was an AGREEMENT with the locals not to try to kill them. Whether or not Sharon threatened them with killing their children i don't know, but an agreement was reached, hence there was no firing, which started up the day the settlers left. (agreement ended).

See how that works..when two groups discuss what to do about something and agree upon it, its called an agreement, there is nothing in the definition about who is the stronger or weaker, nor does it requires a ceremony.

the events and the news of the time, were very clear.

[azurnoir]

29. No pelsar the settlements were demolished save 2 synagogues, even the cemetery was removed

the greenhouses were left partially intact because Israel/settlers were paid $14,000,000 dollars for them period no other reason

The evacuated settlements were razed by demolition crews, with 2,530 homes being destroyed. All but two of the synagogues of the settlements were left intact. The remaining two synagogues, whose construction allowed for them to be taken apart and reassembled, were dismantled and rebuilt in Israel. The demolition of the homes was completed on September 1, while the Shirat HaYam hotel was demolished later.[21]

On August 28, the IDF began dismantling Gush Katif's 48-grave cemetery. All of the bodies were removed by special teams of soldiers supervised by the Military Rabbinate and reburied in locations of their families' choosing. In accordance with Jewish law, all soil touching the remains was also transferred, and the dead were given second funerals, with the families observing a one-day mourning period. All coffins were draped in the Israeli flag on the way to reburial. The transfer was completed on September 1.[22][23]

The IDF also began withdrawing its forces in the Gaza Strip, and had withdrawn 95% of its military equipment by September 1. On September 7, the IDF announced that it planned to advance its full withdrawal from the Gaza Strip to September 12, pending cabinet approval.[24] It was also announced that in the area evacuated in the West Bank the IDF planned to transfer all control (excluding building permits and anti-terrorism) to the PNA - the area will remain "Area C" (full Israeli control) de jure, but "Area A" (full PNA control) de facto.

On September 11, the Israeli cabinet revised an earlier decision to destroy the synagogues of the settlements. The Palestinian Authority protested Israel's decision, arguing that it would rather Israel dismantle the synagogues.[25] On September 11, a ceremony was held when the last Israeli flag was lowered in the IDF's Gaza Strip divisional headquarters.[26] All remaining IDF forces left the Gaza Strip in the following hours. The last soldier left the strip, and the Kissufim gate was closed in the early morning of September 12.[27] This completed the Israeli pullout from the Gaza Strip. However, an official handover ceremony was cancelled after the Palestinian Authority boycotted it in response to Israel's decision not to demolish the synagogues.

In addition to the synagogues, all of the greenhouses in the settlements were supposed to be intact after the Economic Cooperation Foundation raised $14 million to buy the greenhouses for the Palestinian Authority,[28] although about half of them were previously demolished by their own owners before being evacuated for lack of the agreed payment.[29]

On September 20, the IDF temporarily entered the northern Gaza Strip, constructing a buffer zone parallel to the border near Beit Hanoun before pulling out.

This page was last modified on 21 October 2013 at 11:20.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%27s_unilateral_disengagement_plan

[pelsar]

30. and that is a called an agreement...

if somebody pays you not to do something or to do it and you AGREE, you have now made an agreement, its was an agreement between the people paying, the PA that wanted the greenhouse and the israeli govt that agreed the deal

the decision to raze the homes by the israeli govt was also a result of discussion with the PA. They agreed upon some issues on not upon others.

its a simple definition, i have no idea why your trying to redefine the word agreement. I realize its standard affair around here, to show how evil israel and israelis are, but i will always stick to the dictionary for my definitions.
___

you probably meant some grand "agreement" with all it ceremony and hypocrisy and political games. The withdrawal from gaza didn't need any of that crap, the agreements made were what was necessary to get the job done. The future would depend upon the actions of both parties, and no "public agreement" would change that. Its a far better and more honest system than the political games played.

here I'll let you answer what you avoided:
why did the attacks upon israelis stop during the withdrawal and suddenly start again once they all left gaza? pure coincidence?
how is it that not a single Palestinian took it upon himself to try to attack?

[azurnoir]

31. yes Israel agreed to take money from the Economic Cooperation Foundation

and began destruction of the greenhouses when a payment was late, that's about the only agreement that took place

now as to the question I ignored (you claim avoided LOL) let's hear it from you why?

[pelsar]

32. well?

if you didn't avoid it…then please rewrite it, because clearly i missed it..
copy and paste will also do, it will take you about 5 seconds.

[azurnoir]

33. It was your question -not mine

you asked it twice and claimed I avoided it, so if you don't remember -oh well

[pelsar]

34. i'm sorry i don't understand….

i simply asked a question…you mentioned you answered it, andi don't see it

so you don't want to simply cut and paste it, so i can clearly see your answer?, is there something i'm missing here? any reason why you don't want to repeat the answer to the question?

i'm afraid i don't understand the "game" here, perhaps you can enlighten me on that?

[azurnoir]

35. well okay then it's settled

cheers and all that

[pelsar]

36. i remain befuddled

i never understood that part of this forum……you reach a point just when a poster is being pressured to leave their "comfort zone" and then comes the "non answers" the vague replies, the funny icons….and my all time favorite: I already answered that.

i guess what i find most amusing is that this is "cyber space" its not real, there is no reason why one should not answer, unless of course for reasons that i do not understand, this place actually has an emotional affect (for some it does given the emotional reactions I've received ) and answering directly is just too hard.

well to each his own, and most important, to each his own dictionary (i have a preference for webster)