Pro-Palestinian group pushing phony agenda on campus

[King_David]

To appeal to students on campus, the Students for Justice in Palestine is desperately trying to rebrand the image of Palestinian Arabs into a group on the front lines of the fight for liberal ideals and racial harmony.

The theme of the SJP national conference at Stanford next week is “From Margin to Center: Connecting Struggles, Forging a National Movement.” According to the website promoting the event, “The struggle for Palestinian liberation is deeply intertwined with the fight against patriarchy (sexism, homophobia, cissexism, ableism), racism, and capitalism…”

Considering the culture that is cultivated in Palestinian society, and what a Palestinian state would entail, this cynical rebranding effort, designed to appeal to impressionable, idealistic students on campus, must be exposed for what it is: a fraud.

Unfortunately, Hamas and Fatah promote racism, hatred and violence toward Jews, as well as cruelty toward gay people. Therefore, the idea that Palestinian Arabs’ “struggle” with Israel is part of a broader struggle for civil rights across the globe is absurd.

http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/69915/pro-palestinian-group-pushing-phony-agenda-on-campus/

[azurnoir]

1. yes you've given you opinion on Palestinian civil rights

King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile |
Response to Original message
1. NO RECOGNITION DESERVED

Fuck Them

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x366616#366617

[King_David]

5. Anybody denying Gay rights and discriminating against Gay human beings,

Deserves NO recognition and sanctions and BDS and deserve to be ostracized from the family of decent civil nations.

I will repeat, anyone discriminating against Gay , LGBT deserves a big FUCK THEM !!!


You have a problem with that?

The sochi olympics should be boycotted too...

[azurnoir]

11. I have a problem with denying whoile nations civil rights every man woman and child

Gay or Straight civil rights of any kind for any reason

[King_David]

12. Any nation Denying Gay rights to their own population,

Who routinely jail and or kill those human beings that were born Gay or LGBT should be ostracized and boycotted and removed from the community of civilized nations...

Goes for Russia too...


FUCK THEM !!

[azurnoir]

13. Hamas has been ostrasized the West Bank follows Jordanian law which legalized being Gay in 1951

long before Israel did

eta so there are no 'misunderstandings'

[King_David]

16. Hamas allows gay rights ?

Or even life ?

Lol ... You sure are out of touch ...

Doesn't warrant a response even.

[azurnoir]

18. no but you are indeed free to misread any way that you might need to

I said Hamas has been, in reply to your statement that any nation should be ostracized (I believe in the past you've used such terms smashed and crushed) based on their Gay Rights history

however the West Bank follows Jordanian law which legalized being Gay in 1951 more than 3 decades before Israel

[King_David]

21. So what?

We talking 2013.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

27. It's basic math. So you talking 2013.

azurnoir seems to have a point that you are desperately trying to ignore.

Curious.

[King_David]

28. What's the point

That's Israel's neighbors are fucking homophobic bigoted pricks that even on DU have people defending this barbaric anti gay Neanderthal attitude ?

That point?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

29. So this isn't about the SJP, but it is about Israel's neighbors? Strange.

Do you care to link to those who are "defending this barbaric anti gay Neanderthal attitude?"

I'm sure that you can provide clear proof where they side with Israel's neighbors. No?



On edit: You mentioned "homophobic bigoted pricks" with some vigor. Have you considered that there are a great deal of "anti-Palestinian bigoted pricks" within Israel and the West bank causing a great amount of damage to Israel's reputation in the world?
How do you feel about that?

[Scootaloo]

33. And what about people who exploit LGBT people to justify the oppression of others?

[King_David]

14. I am proud of that post btw,

And I consider any criticism of that post to be homophobic ..

[azurnoir]

30. Let's bring your beliefs closer to home

the state of Florida refuses to recognize marriage equality what sanctions would place against them? what rights would you deny to Florida's citizens?

[King_David]

83. Shame in Florida for not recognizing Gay Marriage

But my boyfriend and myself have a condo in South Beach we kiss and snuggle on the street and take our kids for walks on Lincoln and hold hands wherever we go etc etc etc

We have never been arrested , tortured, imprisoned or shunned in Florida for having been born gay ...

And any place or territory that does that must be shunned and expelled from the family of the civilized .

Your comparison of a USA state to the cultural backward places that discriminate against their own gay citizens is absurd.

[azurnoir]

84. so no one in Florida has ever been shunned by their family for being Gay

gotta link for that one eh?

However I knew that somehow someway Florida would be different, in fact it seems you only wish to take extreme measures when the 3rd world in involved why is that?

[King_David]

86. I'm talking state sponsored

Your comparison is not only insulting it's absurd ...

[azurnoir]

87. No my comparison is accurate and as the state of Florida does nothing to stop such things

they may as well be state sponsored

[bemildred]

2. I thought we wanted them to adopt more progressive policies and attitudes?

Why the fuck are we criticizing this?

[King_David]

3. no criticism would be warranted if it were true and they were adopting more progressive policies

and attitudes.

But they are not, hence the word phony.


Buy they should.

Unless you know different?

[bemildred]

4. Who is "they"? These kids want to adopt them, what's wrong with that?

You want to conflate them with Hamas? Bullshit.

[King_David]

6. They , as described,

'Unfortunately, Hamas and Fatah promote racism, hatred and violence toward Jews, as well as cruelty toward gay people. Therefore, the idea that Palestinian Arabs’ “struggle” with Israel is part of a broader struggle for civil rights across the globe is absurd.'


The elected leaders and Governments of the Palestinian People.

(unless you think this is controversial among the population? Please share )

[bemildred]

7. Right, you want to conflate this college group with Hamas.

Got it.

[King_David]

8. Nope, no conflation , so you didn't 'get it' as it turns out,

I hope this group fights for Gay civil rights or even the ability

To exist as a Gay person or even to live....In Gaza and Ramallah.

That would be impressive indeed.


I have no idea, since I am too scared for my life to visit Gaza or West Bank as a Gay man, if the 'policy' by the Governments of Palestine towards Gays is at all controversial or not.


Do you know ?

[bemildred]

9. This is not the government of Gaza or anything else.

It's a group of college students. They mean what they say and should be encouraged for adopting those messages. That's what we want them to do, adopt progressive positions. Someday they will be governing Palestinians themselves, some of them, and we don't want them spouting jihadi gibberish in preparation do we?

[King_David]

10. American College students attittudes are not the problem here,

It is who and what they are advocating for, and the deception to those supporting Gay rights .

[Violet_Crumble]

34. Because progressive is the antithesis of the ZOA, of which the OP is executive director...

We can't have Palestinians having themselves any sort of progressive viewpoints that might cause problems for the ZOA's rather progressive stance that Palestinians are terrorists and there's no such thing as Palestine because it's all Eretz Israel and belongs to Israel.

Mr Levine holds some interesting views. I'd hazard a guess that he's pretty RW on the scale of things based on his bio

The truth of the matter is that Israel is not occupying Palestinian land. There was never a state of Palestine in Judea and Samaria. Before Israel reclaimed it in a defensive war, it was illegally occupied by Jordan for twenty years. Before that it was ruled by the British and the Ottoman Empire.

Furthermore, the Palestinians will not be placated by a state of their own because they are not primarily motivated by self-determination. Their main goal is to destroy Israel and drive the Jews into the sea. They were offered a state of their own in 1937, 1947, 2000 and 2008. Each time they declined the offer.

Only from these facts can we move forward and find an acceptable solution to the conflict.

<snip>

After that, I worked for the Leadership Institute and the Republican Jewish Coalition, where defending Israel was integral to my everyday work. More recently, I was an Associate Producer at PJTV.

<snip>

At ZOA, we will not bully Israel into giving up land to a people who venerate terrorists and rejoice in the killing of Jews. At ZOA, we will not admonish Israel for building homes for its citizens in Eretz Israel.

Read more: http://zoa.org/2013/08/10209639-a-new-narrative-on-israel/#ixzz2jevNJObp

[bemildred]

35. Ah, so it mucks up the narrative when they adopt progressive positions, is that it?

And we whine about bigotry.

[azurnoir]

47. ah yes ZOA

I guess progressive in this instance is interpreted as meaning what agenda one is attempting to progress

[King_David]

85. How you feel about Gays having any rights at all

Last edited Mon Nov 4, 2013, 09:23 AM - Edit history (1)

In Gaza or West Bank...

ZOA or otherwise... The far far right support Hamas in their discrimination against Gays ( and Jews)

I get it .. We expect anything from these right wing organizations ..

But you don't expect people who support the Democratic Party in the USA or self described "progressives " to defend the indefensible homophobic bigoted hateful positions of the governments of the people of Palestine.

[Violet_Crumble]

106. I think you missed things like words and question marks from that post...

I'll try to make some sense of it, though...

While yr attempt to portray anyone who is Palestinian or supports Palestinian self-determination as homophobic is relentless, it's doomed to failure, especially when yr talking to LGBT allies...

The person who wrote the article that you posted is from an extremist organisation and I posted some of his extreme views, which you appear to have totally ignored. It'd be a safe bet that this bloke is opposed to gay rights, as he's a Republican, and he's doing what some others do and cynically bringing up gay rights only when it comes to the Palestinians....

One can be critical of policies towards gays in places around the world without feeling the need to embrace hatred and intolerance towards entire populations. For example, Russia has some horrible anti-gay laws that led me to support a boycott of the Winter Olympics. Does that mean I think that Russians are 'fucking homophobic bigoted pricks' (yr words in this thread about Palestinians)? No, it means that I think Russian society and Russian lawmakers need to change their attitudes. This is something that could happen naturally in a series of small steps, or it could involve outside influence like sanctions and/or boycotts. But one thing that's a big out of bounds is to advocate for the destruction of countries. Stripping a basic human right from an entire population to punish them for discriminating against a section of their own population is wrong. And what you've been consistently arguing is that the Palestinian people have no right to have their own state, where most people recognise that these are two different struggles and they can be fought simultaneously but one's not dependent on the other...

[King_David]

110. Sorry but there should be zero tolerance

For bigoted homophobic pricks especially to those countries or territories imprisoning or killing Gays at a state level .

There is no such thing as a progressive or an ally to the GLBT cause who excuses or gives a pass for such.

There ain't no defense for the indefensible ... There ain't no "cultural "pass either.

PERIOD !

Nobody supports us gays or is prepared to go to bat for us besides nice sounding platitudes like. " I supported a boycott of Russia"

If gays had their own country and strong army like the Jews now do , the killing and imprisonment of Gays would cease just like it sort of has occurred for the Jews .

[Violet_Crumble]

111. It'd help if you tried reading what yr responding to...

Maybe you'd like to explain how my stance on Russia makes me a homophobe? Feel free to be concise. I can insert missing words and question marks like I did with the previous post...

[King_David]

112. I didn't see many allies of us Gays on this thread

And I'm not answering snippy questions from posters who feel superior .

[Violet_Crumble]

113. We're all aware of how narrowly you define an LGBT ally...

If someone supports Palestinian statehood, or even dares to say that they want to see equality for gays in Palestine, then that makes them a homophobe.

Considering yr throwing around nasty accusations of homophobia at a lot of DUers in this thread, yr not well placed to accuse anyone of being nasty. I asked a simple question based on yr accusation that holding views like my own on Russia makes me a homophobe. I didn't expect any answer, as that would involve having to justify an accusation that you throw round without putting any thought into it. If you change yr mind and decide to try to explain *why* you think what you think, then feel free to return and answer it....

[King_David]

120. Nope , bye nt

[Violet_Crumble]

121. Yes, that is a very narrowly way to define it...

As I said, if you ever feel like explaining how the stance I told you I hold on Russia and its treatment of gays is homophobic, feel free to return and do it. But just flinging round nasty and untrue accusations of homophobia is probably far easier than trying to justify why you think the way you do...

Have a lovely night!

[shira]

154. If you're against people advocating the destruction of another state, you'd oppose global BDS

As it is, you support a movement that is against Israel's existence and the 2-state solution.

I call bullshit on you.

[Violet_Crumble]

163. Huh? Are you now claiming I support the destruction of any state?

It's really hard to work out what yr trying to say there. I get the sense that it's more of the same old, same old, where you ignore what people say their views are on things, and invent what you want them to be.

btw, any chance you could go back read my post you 'replied' to and do a coherent response to it that deals with what I said?

[shira]

164. You support BDS. We know what BDS stands for. I call BS on you. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

165. Again, what are you calling BS on me for?

Yr not trying to invent another view I don't hold to slap on me? That would be very clumsy and silly if you were trying to do that. I think we've had this conversation many, many times but you seem to forget five seconds after yr told. Yr not very skilled at telling everyone what other DUers think or believe, which is why you should leave it to them. And in this case my belief is anyone advocating the destruction of any country is expressing a view I don't think is the slightest bit left-wing. I don't believe in the destruction of any country, and anyone who then turns around and insists I do is a fucking liar.

Lovely talking to you again.

[shira]

182. Simple logic. You support global BDS. BDS advocates for Israel's destruction. Thus.....

Last edited Tue Nov 5, 2013, 06:08 PM - Edit history (1)

...it's only reasonable to assume you share the same goals. You certainly don't, nor have I ever once seen you oppose the BDS anti-Israel cause.

How am I wrong?

[Violet_Crumble]

217. The difference between simple logic and fucked up 'logic'...

Simple logic:

I stated, and I'll make it really big font so you can't miss it:

[font size="5"]'I don't believe in the destruction of any country, and anyone who then turns around and insists I do is a fucking liar.'[/font]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113450285#post165

Simple logic dictates that when I state what my views are, those are my views seeing as how I'm best placed out of anyone in the entire world to say what my views are.

Fucked up 'logic':

Ignoring what someone states their beliefs are, and embarking on a tactic I like to call Shira's Sixty Degrees Of Separation to come up with 'logic' like this example of fucked up 'logic' I gave elsewhere in the thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=50534

If yr still struggling to read and grasp the very simple and concise explanation of my view I provided, all I can do is translate it into a dialect yr more likely to be familiar with. Like this: 'I don't beliebe in the, uhhh, destruckion of any country, 'n anyone who den turns around 'n insists I do is a fuckigg liar'

http://www.rinkworks.com/dialect/

[shira]

231. So why do u support BDS when they advocate for an end to Israel via RoReturn? n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

233. Did you read and grasp what I said in my last post?

I'm concerned you may have done that thing where you don't bother with any of that and just start galloping off in some other direction. A simple yes or no will suffice...

[shira]

234. Yep, but that doesn't explain why you support BDS. It's why I asked. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

235. I'm pretty sure you didn't grasp what I said...

Nor got that final bit of what I said: '...and anyone who then turns around and insists I do is a fucking liar.'

I'll leave you at this point to ponder that and other things, like what the hell is a safe word. I don't want to overload you with new concepts. Enjoy the rest of yr evening!

[shira]

238. I figure what you're really saying is you don't see anything wrong with BDS....

Like others, you deny they're for Israel's destruction.

Therefore, when you defend them you can pretend you're not defending an organization committed to ending Israel.

Am I warm?

[shira]

39. Who says SJP is adopting a progressive stance? They're claiming the Palestinian cause....

...has been and is a liberal/progressive cause when it never has been. Here's what they claim:

“The struggle for Palestinian liberation is deeply intertwined with the fight against patriarchy (sexism, homophobia, cissexism, ableism), racism, and capitalism…”

That's a lie.

[bemildred]

40. Read the OP, their website says it.

You don't believe them, I get that, it mucks up your narrative.

But you would believe them if they spouted a bunch of jihadi nonsense. Because that fits your preconceptions.

[shira]

50. Their website says the Palestinian cause is linked to liberal causes. So I ask, since when?

Is SJP demanding gay rights in a future Palestine? Show us where they have ever done so.

[bemildred]

56. Right, you don't believe it, so what? Is that all you have? nt

[shira]

58. When have they EVER advocated for liberal causes in Gaza or the W.Bank?

The next time they do so will be their FIRST.

You believe them.......why? What evidence do you have that SJP will fight hard against Hamas for gay rights?

[bemildred]

60. It's on their website. Go read it.

But this becomes boring, I have to go.

[shira]

62. No, it's not. All that's on their website is one sentence stating that the Palestinian cause....

...is deeply intertwined with liberal causes, when it never has been in its history.

You're seeing things you wish were there.

[bemildred]

63. Always a pleasure, Shira.

[bravenak]

15. Why are you criticizing these kids?

They seem to be trying to do good things. I must be missing something?

[King_David]

17. I am criticizing them for pretending there are

Anything similar to Gay rights or rights of gays to live within Palestine...

[bravenak]

19. So they shouldn't push for things that don't exist yet in Palestine?

I don't think they are pretending that there are enough rights. I think they are pushing for more rights. Right?
Why the hell is this a bad thing?
I'm still missing something?

[King_David]

20. Maybe reread the OP

They not pushing for Gay rights at all within Palestine... Maybe that's what your missing here ?

[bravenak]

24. Give them a few months to get there.

It is probably something that they're discussing at the present time. Did they say that they exclude gay rights specifically? Cause I don't see that.

[bravenak]

49. There are lots of states in the US that don't recognize gay rights. No universal marriage rights.

How would you like to crush the United States? Gay rights aren't universal here, so what would you like to do to us?? Fuck us right? Gonna stop taking our homophobic money? Our anti gay rights military equipment going to be returned?
Please. You
I read the op. They aren't a gay rights specific group. They're college kids.
You don't care about their rights at the heck all. You couldn't care less if they have rights. But now you hate them for not pushing for your rights. Wow.

[King_David]

82. Comparing places that jail or kill

Gay men to the USA is absurd .

Any country or territory that imprisons or kills or discriminates against their own people for just being born homosexual does not deserve to belong to the family of civilization .

Such places should be shunned boycotted and cutoff ...

Yes !!

[bravenak]

88. The US has discriminated against gays forever.

Most states still do. My state in fact won't recognize your marriage if you are gay. How would you punish my state?? Most states discriminate against gays, they don't kill or imprison them, bug they can't get married. Most states offer no protection at all for gay people, they can be fired at will for being gay, can be refused housing.
What sanctions would you place on the United States for discriminating against our own people just for being homosexual?
We have crazy people here that compare homosexuality to bestiality and pedophilia. You would sanction over half of the United States and have them cutoff from the rest of the world?
Do tell.

[King_David]

89. Nope I will not continue that absurd

Insulting to all especially Gays, argument..

[bravenak]

90. Oh goody !

I'm glad cause it is stupid.
Cause I thought you were saying that countries that discriminate against gays should be shunned. I think you did say exactly that.And since we do, (discriminate against gays, women, blacks, Hispanics,I was worried about what type of shunning or crushing my state/country was in for.
I guess it's okay if it's the United States not recognizing gay rights. Cause we don't. Not all rights in all places. Some places are very anti gay in my country. They still attack gay couples just for existing, in some areas. Shameful shit.

[King_David]

91. The USA government kill or inprison the Gays

Like they do in Iran or Gaza?

Yep I thought not,

Your argument is absurd.

[bravenak]

93. Ok.

5. Anybody denying Gay rights and discriminating against Gay human beings,

Last edited Sun Nov 3, 2013, 04:06 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)

Deserves NO recognition and sanctions and BDS and deserve to be ostracized from the family of decent civil nations.

I will repeat, anyone discriminating against Gay , LGBT deserves a big FUCK THEM !!!


You have a problem with that?

The sochi olympics should be boycotted too...

You said discriminate.

[bravenak]

94. So.

When do you start the boycott then? And how bout those sanction? I think we got the fuck us loud and clear. I just want to be ready when you let loose your wrath.

[King_David]

96. Lol you actually believe this "argument " of yours

No need to censure Russia Iran or Gaza for their treatment of Gays because it is the same in the USA ...??

That's ignorant insulting and degrading to us gays that I refuse to continue this discussion with such...you need do a little research into this topic ..

Bye bye ...

[bravenak]

97. I'm just using your words.

Last edited Tue Nov 5, 2013, 05:01 AM - Edit history (1)

Thanks for replying!
5. Anybody denying Gay rights and discriminating against Gay human beings,

Deserves NO recognition and sanctions and BDS and deserve to be ostracized from the family of decent civil nations.

I will repeat, anyone discriminating against Gay , LGBT deserves a big FUCK THEM !!!


You have a problem with that?

The sochi olympics should be boycotted too...

Shouldn't you punish the US too?
You did say it.
When do you plan to start the BDS campaign against the US and Russia? I'd like to know.

On edit: c'mon David I may be interested in helping. It may help push congress into actually doing something. I won't boycott my own country, but I'd like to see how things go with your BDS campaign against US. And Russia. And many many other countries.
You've got me worried over here. I need to prepare for the crushing you will mete out upon those nations that have members among them who have offended and harmed you. You must punish all of us collectively for our bigots, and deny us all our most basic rights until we do as you say.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

23. You're missing the pure hate of some anti-Palestininan posters.

That's all.

[bravenak]

26. I know.

I like to hold a mirror up to his face. He hates everything Palestine except the land.

[shira]

100. Pointing out the lies & hypocrisy of certain pro-Palestinian posers isn't hatred.

Last edited Mon Nov 4, 2013, 04:56 PM - Edit history (1)

Pure hate is demonstrated by the "progressives" here who couldn't care less about Palestinian women, gays, christians, or blacks within Gaza and the W.Bank.

That's real hatred.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

123. Your empty rhetoric is dully noted.

[shira]

127. Nothing empty about it. Name one pro-Palestinian group for BDS, anti-apartheid, etc...

...that loudly advocates for liberal causes and civil rights within Gaza or the W.Bank right now.

Just one.

You know, from all these liberal, awesome and progressive groups you support so much...

One.

Can't do it, can you?

==============

Which Palestinians do these posers support if not the women, gays, christians, or blacks suffering persecution under Palestinian leadership?

Which Palestinians do you support? Don't hold back. Speak up!

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

130. I'm not playing your games of diversion tonight.

You're a hate monger through and through.

[shira]

156. You should support Palestinians for 2-states who want to live peacefully w/ the Jews...

You should support Palestinians who are oppressed throughout the Arab world, who lack civil rights.

Don't hate.

[aranthus]

132. What I find hysterical

is that the crowd that complains about "pinkwashing" goes all "what are you talking about" when confronted with actual pinkwashing.

[King_David]

133. That is a great point,

Yes it is true.

[bemildred]

167. Well, I think, you better get used to it, because it's going to continue.

Nobody except the already converted is going to buy this pinkwashing bullshit, or your conflation of Hamas with these college students.

The fact is if there is nothing they can do, it they do not mention "the gay", or bash gays, they will be savaged for that. If they do mention the gay, it's "pinkwashing" and bullshit.

The real goal is just to shut them up, to discredit them, to deny them the right to be heard.

Who, exactly, is really being intellectually dishonest here?
Who, exactly, is really wallowiing in self-pity here?

[shira]

36. Because they're lying. They say...

“The struggle for Palestinian liberation is deeply intertwined with the fight against patriarchy (sexism, homophobia, cissexism, ableism), racism, and capitalism…”

That's a big, fat lie.

In no way has the Palestinian struggle ever been linked to liberal causes.

[bemildred]

43. So is your theory that they should STAY in the social dark ages to progress?

And aren't you disrespecting the Palestinians like Pelsar says? Thinking they can't be as good as us?

[aranthus]

189. The theory is that they should actually progress instead of lying about it. n/t

[bravenak]

45. This is their struggle too, they were born.

They want to include progressive principles in their belief system, I'm cool with that. I don't damn the kids for the faults of Hamas. Stop that. You have to stop demonizing a whole generation of Palestinian youths. These are liberal college students, not Hamas leadership.

They're linking the Palestinian struggle to liberal causes right now, and there is nothing you can do to stop them from progressing.

Why does it bother you so much that the Palestinian youth on college campuses want to be liberals?
I know why.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

125. "In no way has the Palestinian struggle ever been linked to liberal causes."

What a truly bigoted thing to write, Shira.

[shira]

126. FACT: Hamas, Fatah & their western propagandists don't do liberal causes. n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

129. As another poster has pointed out, and I am paraphrasing,

you do double duty slandering anything Palestinian.

[delrem]

134. What this faction of hasbara is doing is something that shouldn't be done.

By "this faction" I just mean this group of very similar voices of hasbara, perhaps owing to only one or two actual people running the puppets.

What this faction of hasbara is doing: it is denying that there can be a progressive, liberal, enlightened Palestinian, Arab, Muslim - of any degree. The hasbara theme is to portray all Palestinians, Arabs, Muslim, as extreme terrorist fundamentalists. By denying the existence of progressive voices among the Palestinian, Arab, Muslim populations, this faction of hasbara is simply cancelling the possibility of diplomacy.

That shouldn't be done. It just shouldn't be done. But it is done at DU I/P,

[shira]

143. The Palestinian cause vs. Israel is not liberal/progressive in any way....

BDS, Apartheid slander, etc... are all 1-state movements designed to destroy and then replace Israel via war, mass slaughter, ethnic cleansing. There is absolutely no concern on display for Palestinians oppressed in Gaza, the W.Bank, Lebanon, Syria, etc. It's a pure hate movement.

OTOH, there are Palestinians and others who are genuinely for 2-states and will recognize and co-exist peacefully alongside the Jewish state.

The latter movement is liberal/progressive.

The former isn't.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

209. The Israeli cause is progressive?

Yes, stealing land in the West Bank to drop illegal settlers on is so progressive.

[shira]

211. You're changing the subject. You can't even acknowledge there are peaceful Palestinians....

...who are for 2 states, who will recognize Israel as legit, and gladly work alongside like-minded, peaceful Israelis.

I can only imagine you see such Palestinians as traitors and racist Zionists themselves, for apartheid, stealing land, ethnic cleansing....

Now that's real hate.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

214. No, my countrified equivocator, you wrote this...

The Palestinian cause vs. Israel is not liberal/progressive in any way....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=50494


...and I spanked you with the truth.

Deal. With. It.

[shira]

216. Palestinians for 2-states and peace with Israel are by definition not against Israel....

....unlike those who are for full RoReturn, BDS, 1-state, sharia law. It's that cause which is not progressive in any way, shape, or form.

Pay attention spanky.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

220. It's so sad that you cannot admit your error when it is presented to you

in an honest manner, but then, my maligner of the Palestinian people, why would I expect you to take the high road?

[shira]

221. You just don't pay close attention. You'll note in all my posts about the bad guys....

...that they're anti-Israel, bigots, warmongers, etc.

By definition, Palestinians for 2 states and peace (and there are many of them you'd call traitors) are the good guys. Unfortunately it's not their cause you support. The Palestinian cause you support is the bad one.

Let me know when I can correct you again.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

225. My poor Shira. If you are going to embrace mendacity I will just have to leave you to yourself.

Have fun.

[shira]

226. Good. Go have fun playing with yourself. n/t

[delrem]

128. Demonizing an entire demographic is an adjunct to war crimes.

War crimes couldn't be perpetrated except under an unrelenting barrage of hate talk aimed at the target demographic in general.

Such an unrelenting barrage of pure unadulterated hate, rejecting anything and everything that could be considered positive, simply would not happen against any other group except Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims. It turns DU into a stormfront-like garbage site.

I've fucking well had enough with a place that allows it.

[shira]

144. 1-state BDS warmongers demonize themselves. Apparently you've never heard of Palestinians....

...who are genuinely for 2-states and want to co-exist peacefully alongside the Jews.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

22. Thanks, dave. You hit off with the hatred of Palestinians right out of the gate.

I'm not sure what you are trying to compensate for, but practically the entire article rests on something other than the SJP.
Two short paragraphs set up the student group while the remaining 12 paragraphs look to knock down the Palestinians.

Nice work if you can get it.

I guess that it is better than discussing the IDF, illegal Israeli settlers or the Israeli apartheid state.

[shira]

37. It's because SJP lied. They say about the Palestinian cause...

“The struggle for Palestinian liberation is deeply intertwined with the fight against patriarchy (sexism, homophobia, cissexism, ableism), racism, and capitalism…”

That's a lie.

The cause has been led from the start by illiberal, regressive fascists like Hamas and Fatah.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

95. Keep up with the hate, shira.

You do a good job of it.

[shira]

101. Explain clearly what you mean by "hate". And while you're at it....

Last edited Mon Nov 4, 2013, 09:35 PM - Edit history (4)

Ask yourself why you cannot help but label Israel apartheid and racist in every other post of yours, when Gaza and the PA version of a future Palestine is already WORSE than Israel and by definition, more racist and apartheid.

They're apartheid and racist now against women, gays, blacks, christians, and jews. It's against the law for Jews to purchase land there, and Jews won't be allowed in a future Palestine.

So imagine if I called Palestine an apartheid, racist state post after post after post, comparing their actions to those of the nazis as you do vs. the Jews...victims now are the oppressors....getting my rocks off doing that just as you do. You'd certainly find that hateful. Of that I'm certain and there's no doubt. So why isn't it hateful when you do that to Israel?

Keep that in mind the next time you accuse others of what you do.

[bravenak]

25. I guess you don't want them fighting homophobia?

Why not? I do.

[oberliner]

31. The struggles are not compatible

I think that is the issue here. The values noted in the fight against the patriarchy are not values common to the Palestinian cause. Though I certainly wish they were.

[bravenak]

32. These are kids from a new generation.

They will be leading the nation one day. If they want to fight the powers that be, and fight against homophobia and for civil rights, I support that.
Maybe these values are becoming common cause among the youth and it should be welcomed like a breath of fresh air.
This is what we want them to do, right? Become more liberal over time? It's working, we should be pleased.

[shira]

75. These new generation kids are supporting the wrong Palestinians....

And it's not just SJP, but also every other major so-called pro Palestinian group like the ISM, PSC, BDS, FreeGaza, Mondoweiss, ElectronicIntifada, etc.

None of them are working for the civil rights of women, gays, christians, blacks, or jews in Gaza or the W.Bank.

That's not what they do.

So which Palestinians are they really supporting, if not Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah, etc?

Simple question.

[bravenak]

77. Who are they supporting then shira?

Who?
Who are the WRONG Palestinians that they are supporting??
What are you accusing this group of kids of doing specifically?
I'm not seeing where there committed high crimes and misdemeanors, so why are you so against this group of college kids, pushing for more liberal values?
Is it a case of ' they're not perfect, so they should disband, end the meetings.?'!?
Are they not allowed to discuss liberal values and find their places in the world??

I guess we should end college republican meetings too. They're not working for the civil rights of gays, women, blacks, Jews or Arabs in this country, so they must be supporting who? The klan? The white male separatists?
That's what you sound like.

[shira]

107. College Republicans don't pretend to have progressive views like these liars

It's not progressive to advocate for the destruction (via war) of a UN country. It's not progressive to run cover for the oppression of gays, women, christians, and blacks in Gaza.

You can see it demonstrated here if you're truly interested - although I doubt you are. You don't want to really know. You're comfortable where you're at and anything challenging your POV you willfully ignore.

You won't find any of Israel's harshest critics here (or pretty much anywhere else) interested in putting equal time into condemning Hamas and Fatah in favor of civil liberties for Palestinians within a peaceful 2-state framework. They're simply not interested in that. It's not fun for them. What gets them going is their venom against Israel. Hate is the primary motivator.

Liberal pro-Palestinians should be advocating for less corruption within the Palestinian government, as well as for Palestinian leadership to grant civil liberties for all Palestinians within Gaza and the W.Bank. Not only do these posers for Palestine NOT spend half their time advocating for that, they won't even spend 1% of their time doing so. "Maybe later." Yeah, right.... Bring it up and they'll change the subject to Israel. But look at what Israel is doing. Blah, blah... Like I said, running cover for religious fundies who persecute women, gays, and other minorities. Not very liberal.

Try it out here. See if you can find any real liberal pro-Palestinians interested in the civil rights of Palestinians now under Hamas and Fatah oppression. Good luck with that!

When you can find some pro-Palestinian orgs that actually advocate for liberal values within Palestine, let me know. But you should realize you'll have a VERY difficult time finding one (which goes to show how truly vile and depraved the entire anti-Israel movement is). But again, I doubt you want to know. Wouldn't want to challenge your most cherished views that can never be questioned, ever.

[bravenak]

137. Way to totally go off subject on a tangent.

Do you practice this deflection technique daily?
You don't get to make the decisions on his a liberal is supposed to view the world. You are barely liberal. You advocate war and occupation, and think nothing of the theft of land and destruction of human rights imposed on Palestine by Israel. This is not liberal. You are no arbiter of liberalism with the policies you support.

You can't find where these kids are doing anything wrong,so you conflate them with all other groups that you don't like.

You talk about hate, but you hate them and fear them more than they could ever feel the same way about you. It's in all of your postings, dripping with venomous hatred. You can't even see it, it's blinding you.

[shira]

145. SJP is another BDS, 1-state advocate group for full RoReturn, more war, blood, ethnic cleansing..

You should be supporting college kids who are genuinely for peace and 2-states.

Those you are supporting want the conflict to continue.

[bravenak]

147. More labels Shira?

I believe they want what they say they want. And it's pretty peaceful. No hate speech that I can see, Shira.
They did not say they wanted war or ethnic cleansing or blood. You said that.
You are an apologist for ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and see nothing wrong with it having been done to Palestine. I'd look for the quote but who has time to sift through that nonsense?
You want the war and occupation to continue indefinitely. You support the siege and captivity of millions of people. You care naught for their collective human rights and speak of them as though they're inferior.
Not going to let you make things up and go unanswered.

[shira]

151. They're for BDS, 1-state, and against Israel's existence. Do you deny that? n/t

[bravenak]

159. They never said they were against Israel's existence.

Show me where they said that. You can't, so yes I deny that they are against Israel's existence.
BDS is a movement they aren't talking about wiping anyone off the map.
1 state is a solution that some people want to see happen. So what? You like 2 state they like 1 state.
You are blowing stuff up out of proportion, trying to make a group of college students seem to be bent on the destruction of Israel and accusing them of being a hate group.
You have no evidence, besides quoting people.
Like I said, you're making stuff up.

[Violet_Crumble]

171. I think everyone else but Shira can see they haven't said that....

Just because I'm bored right now, I'm going to explain Shira's thought process:

It was sunny over here today.
It was sunny today in Gaza as well (okay, I don't actually know what the weather was like but for the sake of this exercise I do).
Hamas enjoyed that sunny weather.
So did I.
Therefore I support Hamas and want to kill all Jews!

The 'logic' is easy once you get the hang of it!

[bravenak]

176. Oh!!! You won the thread on that one!!!!! Winner!!!

I totally get it now!! Just be as unreasonable as possible and accuse somebody of trying to wipe Israel off the map. It doesn't matter that that's not the stated goal at all. Or that she's the only person on earth who believes herself. My oh my.
I can't stop laughing!! I'm bookmarking this for this times when I need to laugh.

[shira]

183. BDS is against Israel's existence. They're big supporters of BDS....

I can only reasonably assume they share the same goals as BDS when it comes to Israel's existence, or lack thereof.

[oberliner]

81. Which kids are we talking about?

Last edited Mon Nov 4, 2013, 10:13 AM - Edit history (1)

If you are talking about US college students - my point is that they should not delude themselves into thinking that the Palestinian population necessarily shares their values with respect to the issues mentioned above. Those values are definitely worth fighting for and it is my hope that all people move in that direction over time, though some would say that is an example of exceptional-ism and a lack of respect for other cultures who do not share our progressive values with respect to, for example, homosexuality.

[bravenak]

92. Mostly just these American college students who are in no way linked to terrorism.

They're just kids. They want to inherit a peaceful earth from us. All civil rights and human rights struggles are linked in some way as far as I'm concerned. Black men got the vote before white women, black civil rights struggle was occurring alongside women's rights movements. Then gay rights, union rights struggles were happening for a long time. We all had to work together and still do.
Maybe we are trying hard to push people towards a more progressive society. That's our job as liberals. I haven't heard the Palestinian people rise up and say to these kids, no thank you, we don't want rights, we don't want freedom, we don't want a state.
I think the Palestinians share many of our values. Most humans want the same things.
Palestinians are people and are mostly good people. Why would I think we didn't share many values??
I don't see the problem with linking civil rights struggles together. These people are controlled by a state that they have no say in, no vote in.They don't control their own airspace, and are confined into small areas, and under the threat of military violence at all times.They're in a human rights crisis situation.

The kids are doing the right thing.

[oberliner]

98. Of course they aren't

"Most humans want the same things. Palestinians are people and are mostly good people. Why would I think we didn't share many values?? "

Should we impose Western values on non-Westerners? I think that is a reasonable question to ask, especially with respect to the patriarchy.

[bravenak]

99. We should never impose our values. But we expect certain standards to be met.

That's the way of the world.

[shira]

119. What standards do you expect Hamas and Fatah to meet? n/t

[bravenak]

169. Good try.

Didn't work.

[oberliner]

162. Are there universal standards with respect to the patriarchy?

Can that not vary by culture?

[bravenak]

168. All things vary by culture.

This we know. As long as there are people on earth there will be differences. We have no idea how far their society would have progressed were they to have had the freedom of self determination.
I don't know what you mean by universal standards with respect to the patriarchy. If you get more specific I may have an opinion for you.

[oberliner]

172. That is precisely my point

Can we expect non-Western cultures to embrace Western ideas about, say, the role of women in society, or to share a progressive view of homosexuality?

[bravenak]

174. Why don't we find out instead of damning them without letting them try.

They will get it right eventually. It takes time.

[oberliner]

180. I'm all for that

I hope that those who support the fight against homophobia and sexism continue to promote those values even if they may be unpopular in certain communities.

[bravenak]

181. The struggle never ends.nt

[delrem]

136. How is it "imposing Western values on non-Westerners"

to simply acknowledge that Palestinians, being just like any broad group of people, are mostly good people?

[oberliner]

161. That isn't

The views about the patriarchy, especially homophobia and cissexism, however, might vary more widely though.

[shira]

38. SJP isn't fighting homophobia. They're claiming Hamas and Fatah have been doing so. n/t

[bemildred]

41. Bullshit. nt

[bravenak]

42. What?

I'm not seeing what you're seeing.

[shira]

51. Find where SJP is holding rallies, submitting petitions, doing ANYTHING to fight for gay rights....

...within Gaza or the W.Bank.

Take your time looking for their LGBT advocacy.

[bravenak]

57. Not a gay rights specific group that I'm aware of.

Bunch of college kids.
But you know that right?
They're kids.
Kids.
Group of college kids.
They don't have to fight for gay rights.
They're just students.
I see anti homophobia as something they're interested in.
Don't see where they claimed to be fighting for lgbt rights.
Show me where they claimed to be fighting for gay rights (specifically) throughout Palestine.
I can't find that anywhere.

[shira]

61. The point is SJP doesn't fight for any liberal causes within Palestine.

The reason why is they're not a liberal/progressive group. They have no intention of fighting for the rights of women, gays, christians, blacks, or jews in a future Palestine.

And yet you support these kids.

[bemildred]

59. They put it on their fucking website.

I am 100% sure any pro-Israeli site that put up pro-LGBT positions would be lauded for that act. You are applying a double standard.

[shira]

66. No, they didn't. That one sentence only claims the Palestinian cause is linked to liberal....

....and progressive causes as well, when it never has been in its history.

Can you find anything other than that one sentence that shows they're really serious about a future liberal and progressive Palestine?

Anything at all?

[bemildred]

70. I don't need anything more than that one sentence.

It is a expression of future intent, not a claim of past performance, it rejects the past, and it's also quite correct. Palestine will to progress without modern social norms.

[shira]

74. Of course all you need is one misleading statement. Says it all. n/t

[bemildred]

76. Yeah, I've always been a sucker for bullshit. nt

[Scootaloo]

64. Of course you're not seeing what Shira is seeing.

Shira's personal world would scare the shit out of Hieronymus Bosch.

[bravenak]

69. I know she scares me. Nt

[shira]

44. Northeastern U’s Students for Justice in Palestine Cheerlead Hamas and Call for the Murder of Jews

What was particularly revealing, and chilling, about the Boston rally was the virulence of the chants and messages on the placards, much of it seeming to suggest that more sinister hatreds and feelings—over and above concern for the current military operations—were simmering slightly below the surface. Several of the morally self-righteous protestors, for instance, shrieked out, to the accompaniment of drumbeats, “Long live Intifada,” a grotesque and murderous reference to the Second Intifada, during which Arab terrorists murdered some 1000 Israelis and wounded more than 14,000 others.

That pro-Palestinian student activists, those who purport to be motivated by a desire to bring “justice” to the Middle East, could publicly call for the renewed slaughter of Jews in the name of Palestinian self-determination demonstrates quite clearly how ideologically debased the human rights movement has become. Students on U.S. campuses, who never have to face a physical threat more serious than getting jostled while waiting in line at Starbucks, are quick to denounce Israel’s very real existential threats and the necessity of the Jewish state to take counter measures to thwart terrorism. And quick to label the killing of Hamas terrorists by the IDF as “genocide,” these well-meaning but morally blind individuals see no contradiction in their calls for the renewed murder of Jews for their own sanctimonious cause.

http://www.peaceandtolerance.org/index.php/2012-07-26-13-33-03/shame-on-neu/129-northeastern-u-s-students-for-justice-in-palestine-cheerlead-hamas-and-call-for-the-murder-of-jews

[bravenak]

46. Demonizing the kids again, heh?

Several people yelled out things, so the whole group is the devil. I get it.
They must be terrorists, right?

[shira]

53. When has this group of "liberal" kids advocated for liberal causes within Gaza & the W.Bank?

Try finding something that demonstrates where SJP have loudly confronted and condemned Hamas and Fatah for being illiberal, regressive, and fascist on just about everything that matters to progressives and liberals.

[bravenak]

68. You want the kids to do that you should encourage them to.

I'm surprised at the vitriol, Shira. Stop spewing venom at these children! They're college kids.
I don't see why you hate them so much. You don't even know them.

What evil have they brought upon your land?? Anything? A college liberals group offends you that much?
Stop delegitimizing these kids. They're just kids.

[shira]

73. It's not just these kids. No major pro-Palestinian groups do so....

Not FreeGaza, the ISM, PSC, Global BDS, anti-Apartheid Israel, etc.

None of them do.

They don't do what they do out of support for oppressed Palestinians. They're part of the problem, not the solution. If they're not advocating for genuine civil rights within Palestinian society, which Palestinians are they really supporting?

[bravenak]

78. We are talking about this group of kids that you're demonizing.

Or has the subject changed since you can't justify demonizing a whole group of college students for not being perfect?
I didn't know we were blaming the kids for what the adults didn't accomplish yet.

[shira]

103. Regressive college students pretending to act liberal demonize themselves....

Last edited Mon Nov 4, 2013, 04:54 PM - Edit history (1)

How else to describe students for the destruction of a progressive/liberal Israel, replaced by a regime that will in no way respect the civil liberties of any of its citizens?

You're fooling yourself thinking these are decent college kids who mean well. Or else you're assuming they're stupid and don't realize what they advocate (BDS, 1-state, no fighting for civil rights within Palestine) is in line with extremists like Hamas and Islamic Jihad. They know what they're doing. Don't insult their collective intelligence.

Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP) is a radical student organization with chapters on more than 75 campuses across the country. Since its inception, SJP chapters have campaigned for divestment from Israel, which it categorizes as an apartheid state, and accuses of ethnic cleansing.

GWU Students for Justice in Palestine and J Street U at GW partnered Nov. 17 for a "conversation about the future of the region," at an event titled, "Israel and Palestine: What's Next?"

J Street U is the student offshoot of a controversial national advocacy group, J Street. Though it considers itself pro-Israel, J Street is considered by many longstanding Jewish organizations to be well outside the mainstream in its focus on Israel as the source of the conflict. In similar fashion, its campus arm advocates for a "progressive voice" to debate about Israel.

But J Street U's mission wasn't sufficient for SJP: Its speakers made clear that, to them, justice in the conflict cannot be achieved as long as Israel exists.

"As the name SJP suggests, this organization seeks a just solution for the Palestinian people," said a George Washington student. "Justice is the goal and a one-state solution is the means; will be considered to be the best means for achieving the goal."

A two-state solution allows Zionism to continue, another student noted, "which implicitly means the denial of Palestinian rights, particularly Palestinian refugees."

The dialogue devolved into some heated exchanges, as the J Street participants struggled to grasp their fellow students' intransigence.

"These lands were taken by force," an SJP member said, "and thus we have the right to say no."

http://www.investigativeproject.org/3313/sjp-dialogue-goes-nowhere

These students wouldn't be able to get along with Israel's most leftwing liberals determined to work alongside Palestinians in peace. When they can't get along with Israel's most leftwing advocates and never speak up for Palestinian civil rights, the math becomes as simple as 2+2. These students aren't progressive or leftwing.

[bravenak]

138. You have officially lost me with the nastiness.

Hatehatehatehatehatehate. Hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate.
That's all I saw when I read what you wrote.
Demonizing kids that you don't even know. Are you sure you're a democrat/liberal? I can't tell.

Why the hell are you pretending that you give a damn about Palestinians and their rights? You hate them.
Stop faking like you care, and try to make some good arguments. I'm not reading your official talking point links. I don't stand for racism.

[Violet_Crumble]

140. Hey, you should check out that site she linked to...

The guy who runs it has a testimonials page, and this one is awesome!

"Steven Emerson is no doubt the world's greatest expert on radical Islamic terror networks. He's the 'go-to' guy for the government and the media."
Bill O'Reilly, The O'Reilly Factor

http://www.investigativeproject.org/about.php

If anyone gets bored of having a polite laugh at the way Shira's raging at those college kids for daring to support LGBT rights for Palestinians while totally ignoring the hatred and extremism of the author of the OP, that testimonial's pretty amusing

[bravenak]

141. Thank you, I'll try it out.

I try not to indulge her usually by clicking on evil links, but you've convinced me.
I can't believe he works for Billo and she's linking to him.

[Violet_Crumble]

170. The Bill O'Reilly endorsement amused me...

It makes a nice bookend to the OP being written by an extremist RW type

[bravenak]

173. There were so many nice tidbits to choose from.

I liked

"Obviously, you're one of the foremost experts on terrorism, not only in America, but across the world."
Joe Scarborough, MSNBC's Scarborough Country

Oh and Tweety Ffs.

"Steve Emerson knows what he's talking about with terrorism."
Chis Matthews, Hardball

These people really stress me out. In a good way, keeps me on my toes! I think to myself, this has got to be an act!! I bet you she laughs her ass off at the serious replies she gets.
I refuse to take this act seriously.
I reread the thread and laugh my ass off too.

[shira]

184. Chris Mathews is a big supporter of Obama and Democrats. You realize you're at DU?

And you realize that the Democratic Platform insists on a 2-state solution, not 1-state BDS?

Seems you're the oddball out of touch here.

[bravenak]

194. Don't care what Chris Matthews supports.

I agree when I Agree and I disagree when I disagree. He fawns over his guests in such a way.
Why are you trying to litigate the 1 state vs. 2 state solution? The people can decide what they want, I won't come over and impose any particular solution on them. It's not up to me or you even.
You are the oddball.

[shira]

232. Another reason to litigate vs. the 1-state solution....

If Israel has only 2 choices....the status quo vs. allowing 1-state (end of Israel)........how likely is it that Israel will choose the latter and thus end the occupation and settlements? Seems you're giving the hardliners in Israel no choice but to keep the status quo going. Rightwingers would be happy with that. And you know what? They wouldn't face opposition from leftwingers in Israel, as hardly anyone there supports 1-state.

One state just prolongs the occupation.

[bravenak]

236. So now it's my fault if the occupation continues?

It's not up to me whether it's a one state or two state. Really, I'm not interested in imposing my solution.

[shira]

146. Compare the 2 groups from that last post. SJP vs. J-Street U....

One group of college kids for BDS, 1-state, against Israel's existence vs. another that is for 2-states co-existing in peace alongside the other. The former refuses to get along with the latter college group.

You really can't tell which one is the hate group, can you?

Fascinating.

[bravenak]

150. No Shira I won't compare them.

No.
These are just college kids and I won't be calling them a hate group for you.
Nothing you have said was fascinating. SOS another day.
You really hate the idea of people supporting Palestine so much that you'll label a group of college kids a hate group to suit your needs. Sick.

[shira]

152. I know, you refuse to let facts get in the way. n/t

[bravenak]

155. That's you love.

That's all you.

[shira]

185. The fact is that hate for Israel, being for its destruction is not pro-Palestinian....

Advocates for Palestinian rights in that region of the world who are intentionally silent about the civil rights of women, gays, christians, blacks, and jews in Gaza and the W.Bank are not pro-Palestinian in any real sense of the term.

[bravenak]

192. You're making that up!!! Nobody is advocating hate for Israel!!!

You don't get to decide what pro Palestinian is, you hate them. They want Israel to comply with international law! You should too.
Like you care about the civil rights of Palestinians. Please Shira, I'm not brand new.

[shira]

196. Hate is advocating for Israel's destruction. The goal of BDS.

I can't be held responsible for your disingenuous, willful denial.

[bravenak]

198. The stated goal of BDS is to get Israel to comply with international law.

I can keep saying it until you understand that the stated goal of BDS IS TO GET ISRAEL TO COMPLY WITH INTERNATIONAL LAW. That's all.
If making Israel comply with international law means the destruction of Israel, I'm quite shocked.
How does complying with international law end Israel?
Maybe you are in denial, because it shows in black and white that the stated goal of BDS is to get Israel to comply with international law.

[shira]

199. It doesn't matter what they state on paper when it's clear their ULTIMATE goal is to end Israel

Barghouti made it clear by both stating it and writing it down.

His mask slipped and you're here running interference for that shit.

======

But you mentioned INTERNATIONAL LAW. There is no such law that imposes from the outside immigration policy against Israel's sovereignty that allows a full RoReturn which would then (in both Barghouti's and Abbas' view) end Israel. THAT is against international law. In fact, the only thing they point to is a UNGA resolution on refugees that is non-binding...meaning it's NOT international law at all. And not even that UNGA resolution mentions 3rd, 4th, or 5th generation Palestinian refugees.

IOW, this international law talk that BDS mentions is bullshit.

[bravenak]

201. I see no where that it states the ultimate goal you are describing.

I won't judge an entire movement based on your conspiracy theories.

[shira]

203. It's the same ultimate goal as these guys admit from decades ago. You'll deny it of course....

These guys below were looking for international law, justice, and everything that is good and righteous to prevail, as they had nothing but the best intentions...right?

Go on, pull my other leg. Tell me they're the good guys!

In the Arab world, the refugees were viewed as a potential fifth-column within Israel. As one Lebanese paper wrote:

The return of the refugees should create a large Arab majority that would serve as the most effective means of reviving the Arab character of Palestine, while forming a powerful fifth-column for the day of revenge and reckoning. 67

The Arabs believed the return of the refugees would virtually guarantee the destruction of Israel, a sentiment expressed by Egyptian Foreign Minister Muhammad Salah al-Din:

It is well-known and understood that the Arabs, in demanding the return of the refugees to Palestine, mean their return as masters of the Homeland and not as slaves. With a greater clarity, they mean the liquidation of the State of Israel. 68

The plight of the refugees remained unchanged after the Suez War. In fact, even the rhetoric stayed the same. In 1957, the Refugee Conference at Homs, Syria, passed a resolution stating:

Any discussion aimed at a solution of the Palestine problem which will not be based on ensuring the refugees’ right to annihilate Israel will be regarded as a desecration of the Arab people and an act of treason. 69

A parallel can be drawn to the time of the American Revolution, during which many colonists who were loyal to England fled to Canada. The British wanted the newly formed republic to allow the loyalists to return to claim their property. Benjamin Franklin rejected this suggestion in a letter to Richard Oswald, the British negotiator, dated November 26, 1782:

Your ministers require that we should receive again into our bosom those who have been our bitterest enemies and restore their properties who have destroyed ours: and this while the wounds they have given us are still bleeding! 70

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFrefugees.html

[bravenak]

206. These kids weren't a part of whatever this is you posted.

Why are you linking these kids to people who have been dead for years?
People who have nothing to do with them?
I don't get all the gate Shira. Its hateful.

[shira]

204. Here's Obama acknowledging full RoR means extinguishing the Jewish state...

Fast-forward to 3:08....

&feature=youtu.be


So to recap, we have Arab leaders from the past 6 decades, Omar Barghouti (leader of BDS), Palestinian PM Abbas, and Obama all acknowledging that full RoR means the destrution of Israel.

And here you are denying that's what BDS is all about, when full RoReturn is their goal.

Why the lies?

Why the dishonesty?

[bravenak]

205. See, as an atheist I don't get why it has to be a Jewish state as there are other religions there.

I don't think taking that identifier away means the destruction of Israel. It will no longer be a Jewish majority state, but thats due to demographics. It doesn't mean the state will end and be destroyed, just that the majority will become a minority. That's happening in the United States as we speak. It won't destroy us.

[shira]

208. It's not about religion. It's also a state for atheist Jews who are targets of hate worldwide....

Even for Jews not considered genuinely Jewish by the religious authorities.

The problem prior to 1948 is that Jews were the minority everywhere else throughout the world and that never worked out well. Zionism is simply the national liberation movement of the Jews. It's equal rights for Jews. The right of self-determination other groups or nations of people take for granted worldwide. The same rights Palestinians have and what Israel has offered them. But only the Jews' right to this self-determination is questioned. The Palestinians' have somewhat similar goals, their own exclusionary Arab state where the national religion is Islam. None of you question that....only the Jewish state.

Consider that Jews were kicked or scared out of all neighboring Arab nations. They were ethnically cleansed there as well as out of the W.Bank in 1948. Palestinian government-sponsored media is outrageously antisemitic and there are literally hundreds of videos showing it. How do you really think a minority of Jews would fare in such a state where the hatred between the 2 people (of course it's on both sides) is so thick?

One state is a train-wreck waiting to happen. Here's Uri Avnery of Gush Shalom explaining it in a debate....
http://www.countercurrents.org/pappe110607.htm

Read the whole thing.

[bravenak]

210. That's all well and good Shira.

The fact that there are many many people who aren't Jewish living there is enough to drop the qualifier. Like how I don't call the United States a Christian nation, because it's not. Plenty of other people living here who aren't Christian.

You forgot to mention that the Palestinians right to self determination is also being called into question. By Israel.

And the Palestinians aren't faring too well under the jurisdiction of Israel. Now you fear being under their jurisdiction. Do you think that they will treat you as bad as you have treated them? We won't let them and you know it.

The Palestinians were also ethnically cleansed, and you approve of it. I remember reading your approval of that in the ' remember the nakba' thread. Member? You member. You basically thought that since it was better than a full genocide, it was cool. Right??
Please Shira, miss me with that bull.

[shira]

212. I edited the end of that last post. Read the article cited at the end, the debate with Uri Avnery..

....on 1-state vs. 2-states.

Lemme know what you honestly think of it.

[bravenak]

222. Dude that was just too long and drawn out.

Sorry about that, but I have no vested interest in either a one state solution or a two state solution.
I don't know why you're trying to litigate this with me?
Palestinian were kicked out of Palestine. Neither is okay. I don't know how a minority of Jews would do in the modern time as a minority population. They will be a minority one day regardless so that is something that will have to be dealt with.
It's okay for Israel to dominate and control Palestine, but it's not okay for Palestine to dominate Israel because they will do something, we just don't know what because were not psychic.

[shira]

48. Fake 'eviction notices' scare Jewish students

When Rayna Exelbierd returned to her dorm room at Glades Park Tower on Florida Atlantic University’s Boca Ratoncampus last Friday, she found an “eviction notice” attached the door.

Exelbierd was one of more than 200 students in three dorms who received the fake notice from the campus group Students for Justice in Palestine.

“Some students who didn’t read the document believed they were really being evicted,” said Exelbierd, a 20-year-old sophomore from Memphis, Tenn.

The flier drew attention to Students for Justice in Palestine’s claim that about 25,000 homes have been demolished since the “occupation of Palestine” by Israeli troops began in 1967.

Noor Fawzy, who the university identified as a leader of Students for Justice in Palestine, could not be reached by email.

Exelbierd said students are very concerned. “We’re taking it very seriously,” she said. “We’re considering it a hate crime. The flier promotes hate; it doesn’t promote peace. People were scared by it. People felt threatened by it.”

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2012-04-05/florida-jewish-journal/florida-jewish-journal-eviction_1_noor-fawzy-scott-brockman-campus-group

[bravenak]

52. So those that read the notices weren't scared?

Just the people who didn't read them. Ok.
I wonder how Palestinian families feel when they are taken from their homes to have them demolished in front of their children. That doesn't matter though, right? They're just Palestinians, why should you care? Not really people.

You care more about fake eviction notices than homes being torn down. Good to know.

You blow my mind every day.

[shira]

54. Yeah, great idea to post eviction notices on the doors of Jewish students....

Do you wonder why they picked Jewish students?

Should they pick on black college students and scare them the next time they raise awareness about human rights in some other part of the world?

[bravenak]

65. Things like that have happened to black people in the United States for centuries.

Did you forget that we had to have the national guard to integrate high schools?
Try not to conflate the struggles.
Black people win on the who has been oppressed more argument.
Everybody sold black people. Even blacks, even Jews.
They may want Jewish students to be aware of what they face, with forced evictions and land theft. Maybe the were hoping for some empathy. I empathize with having your land stolen, I can trace my ancestry back to my ancestors in the Cherokee and Blackfoot tribes. I still feel a sense of injustice for all the broken treaties and lies that were told to and about my people.
Their land was stolen, our land was stolen. I get it. My ancestors bodies were also stolen. And their children.
You want them to shut up and do nothing?
What does Shira think they are allowed to say and do? Anything you won't demonize, that comes from a Palestinian youth?

[azurnoir]

71. the US dept of Education dismissed charges that SJP targeted anyone

Rutgers University has a strong history of student protests and being the voice for those whose cries have fallen on deaf ears. We are proud to uphold this tradition that is fundamental to what it means to be a student at this university as well as a citizen of this nation. The First Amendment protects our right to free speech at a public university — especially speech about one of the most urgent international human rights issues of our time. This is a college campus, the quintessential marketplace of ideas, where vigorous debate about serious problems is part of the educational experience. Free speech is sometimes controversial and upsetting to some — it would be worthless if it were not. But as was recently noted by the U.S. Department of Education in dismissing complaints against campuses like Rutgers alleging that pro-Palestinian activism creates a hostile environment for Jewish students, “In the university environment, exposure to robust and discordant expressions, even when personally offensive and hurtful, is a circumstance that a reasonable student may experience.”

http://www.dailytargum.com/opinion/commentary/mock-evictions-demonstrate-palestinians-life-experience/article_00764dae-3541-11e3-9c49-001a4bcf6878.html

SJP has done this at different campus's on numerous occasions

and what the poster you're addressing doesn't seem to realize is that there is a difference between fake and real

[bravenak]

80. She'll change the subject soon to rock throwing.

I wish she knew the difference between pretending to do something and actually doing it.
Getting a fake eviction notice might piss me off. Steal my land and tear down my home to build an apartment building that I can't live in? I might want to burn it down the day you lay the new carpet, never let anyone have a chance to live there. I might *gasp* throw rocks. That's what you do when you hit rock bottom. There's no where to go but up.
She expects the Palestinians to be drones, with no feelings, no needs, and only useful for the land they can give up.
The more I read from her, the more sure I am that she's wrong about everything.

[shira]

72. So you shouldn't be supporting anti-Jewish bigotry. n/t

[bravenak]

79. What anti Jewish bigotry?

This group of kids? Give it a rest Shira.
You can't turn every palestinian youth into a terrorist. It's not working.

[shira]

104. Targeting American Jews in their hate vs. Israel is bigotry.

FFS, they advocate the destruction of a UN country. Anyone here advocating the destruction of Iran, N.Korea, or Canada would rightly be considered an extremist, which is what they are.

[azurnoir]

105. and what about the US Department of Education which threw out the suit against SJP?

anything to say about them?

[shira]

108. First, before I answer you what do you make of organizations....

...advocating the destruction of a UN member state? When you find organizations advocating the destruction of any other nation on the planet, it's assumed those positions are considered hateful, warmongering, and extreme, right?

So what about SJP, which advocates for Israel's elimination, which BTW is against the rules of DU's I/P forum?

[azurnoir]

109. don't want to answer so you attempt to divert got it not playing

I'll take your attempt as an answer in and of itself along with your hate filled assesmant of SJP which so far your accusation about have been shown to be patently untrue

[shira]

114. And I take that as yet another evasion by you.

When you're ready to answer my questions, I'll gladly answer yours.

Not playing by your bullshit rules anymore.

[azurnoir]

115. your questions are based on what in my opinion is a false premise

I've seen you over the years charge virtually every organization or individual who advocates for justice wrt Palestine and a Palestinian state of wishing to destroy Israel, being in favor of "killing Jews" along with rampant name calling

the rules are not mine but fwiw here is SJP's mission statement

About Us

Who we are:
Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP) ASU Chapter is a diverse group of students, faculty, staff and community members at Arizona State University, organized on democratic principles to promote justice, human rights, liberation and self-determination for the Palestinian people. As SJP ASU Chapter we are dedicated to educate the campus and the community of the injustices in Palestine of the past and present times.

Our Vision:
Change the mind of one, transform the ideology of hundreds‘, shift the public opinion of thousands, revolutionize national foreign policy in regards to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict to create peace and justice.

http://sjpalestine.com/?page_id=2

[shira]

116. An organization that advocates for Israel's destruction isn't peaceful...

That isn't justice.

Nor do they care about the civil rights of Palestinians. In fact, just bringing up gay and women's rights in Gaza or the W.Bank evokes cries of racism, zionist talking points, changing the topic, etc.

They're posers.

[azurnoir]

117. shira you make these pronouncements but show nothing that proves them

and no one save you is attempting to change the topic

[shira]

118. Look it up yourself. They're for BDS, full RoReturn, 1-state....

So let's start there. They advocate the destruction of Israel and that makes them hardline, warmongering extremists. What other peaceful advocates pining for the destruction of another member UN state (not Israel) do you know of? Name one.

And don't even think of denying how extreme it is to advocate for another's state's destruction, which they're certainly doing.

a) Norm Finkelstein admits that is the goal of the BDS cult.
b) Abbas admitted that allowing RoR means the end of Israel.
c) If you remember, when asked how many would have to die to achieve one state, an answer from Frank Barat (who interviewed Finkelstein WRT the bds cult) answered 200,000.

[azurnoir]

122. are you going on this tangent to distract from being proven wrong on SJP targeting Jewish students?

and I did give you their mission statement none of what you mentioned was there and then more pronouncements

[shira]

124. They're a hate group and they're not for liberal/progressive values, civil liberties...

As to BDS and the destruction of Israel, here you go:
http://www.bdsmovement.net/2011/the-first-national-sjp-conference-adopts-bds-principles-as-point-of-unity-8232

Who else but a hate group advocates the destruction of a UN member state? The only Jewish one in existence. The only state they boycott.

You have no problem at all with them, right?

[Violet_Crumble]

131. Bullshit...

Do you just blindly link to things, make outrageous and untrue claims, and hope that no-one will bother reading? Because there's nothing in that article that says that group of college kids that you so virulently hate want to destroy Israel. They want Israel to comply with international law.

[shira]

148. SJP is for BDS and 1-state. They're against Israel's existence.

I'm not sure how advocating the destruction of a UN member state complies with International Law.

[Violet_Crumble]

166. Bullshit...

The link you posted said nothing of the sort. Do you bother reading anything you link to before you post it?

[shira]

186. Not sure what's bullshit. You don't believe BDS is against Israel's existence? Or that....

....SJP supports BDS?

[Violet_Crumble]

218. I said what was bullshit in the first sentence of a two sentence post...

That's why it's always helpful to read further than the subject line of a post. Go read the first sentence and you won't be unsure anymore...

[azurnoir]

139. please attempt to stay on subject okay?

it seems that now you've reverted to using any engagement to promote hatred or business as usual

[shira]

149. I'm on the subject of SJP. You're defending them. n/t

[azurnoir]

175. for review you started with claims that SJP targeted Jewish students which were proven false

so when put on the spot you divert from that and start going on about BDS, destruction of Israel blah blah blah

as far as I'm concerned they have done nothing to be demonized about

[bravenak]

142. Why are you still making stuff up?

No one targeted anybody. That had already been proven.
They do not advocate for the destruction of any country. Stop lying.
Please get your facts straight before you go popping off at the mouth, spewing tired ass right wing mouth breather catch phrases.
You will be called on it from now on.
I'd hate for anybody to think DU was full of liars.

[shira]

153. SJP is for BDS and 1-state. They're against Israel's existence....

Norm Finkelstein is a BIG critic of Israel and he admits those who are for BDS are for Israel's destruction...

BDS calls for full RoReturn, which Mahmoud Abbas acknowledged means the end of Israel...
http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Abbas-We-cant-expect-Israel-to-take-in-a-million-refugees

Here's a transcript from a BDS conference where activists admit war would result and hundreds of thousands would die due to their advocacy for 1-state...
http://richardmillett.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/antony-loewenstein-six-million-should-die/

[bravenak]

157. All this over some college students?

Good grief!

[shira]

158. You should support J-Street U. college kids. Not college kids against Israel's very existence. n/t

[bravenak]

160. No thanks.

I'll decide for myself who to support. I'm smart enough not to be taken in by bullshit.

[Violet_Crumble]

178. That demand that you support J Street college kids brought back some memories...

I dunno, it's kind of like if I started urging kids here to join the Young Liberals (fyi, the Liberals here are our RW party)

J-Street, oblivious to the facts, joins the demonization campain vs. Israel

[bravenak]

179. She sure is pushy.....

Felt like I was on the plantation for a sec. Or like when my stepdad told me we were republicans. I was not a republican.

If she supports it, I suspect it of being sinister.

[shira]

188. You two should get a room. The bullshit you two generate could turn into something quite kinky. n/t

[bravenak]

191. You would know about bullshit, heh heh!

I'm feeling frisky right now. You wanna come join us, sweetness?

[bravenak]

177. ^^^^^Everyone, this is not meant to be a factual statement.^^^^^^ look up^

No one advocated for the destruction of a UN nation. She made that up.

[shira]

187. BDS is against Israel's existence & wants it gone. Do you need evidence of that? n/t

[bravenak]

190. Yes. Prove it.

WHAT IS BDS?
In 2005, Palestinian civil society issued a call for a campaign of boycotts, divestment and sanctions (BDS) against Israel until it complies with international law and Palestinian rights. A truly global movement against Israeli Apartheid is rapidly emerging in response to this call.
That doesn't sound like their goal is to end Israel, just to make it comply with the law. You may it means the end to Israel, but that's not the stated goal.

[shira]

193. Omar Barghouti is recognized as the leader of the BDSM against Israel....

He said:

“I DO NOT BUY INTO THE TWO STATE SOLUTION. It is not just pragmatically impossible it was never a moral solution.. The first issue would be the right of return but if the refugees were to return you cannot have a two state solution like one Palestinian commentator remarked, YOU WILL HAVE A PALESTINIAN STATE NEXT TO A PALESTINIAN STATE RATHER THAN A PALESTINIAN STATE NEXT TO ISRAEL”

&feature=youtu.be

He also wrote...

The current phase has all the emblematic properties of what may be considered the final chapter of the Zionist project. We are witnessing the rapid demise of Zionism, and nothing can be done to save it, for Zionism is intent on killing itself. I, for one, support euthanasia.

http://electronicintifada.net/content/relative-humanity-fundamental-obstacle-one-state-solution-historic-palestine-12/4939

Mahmoud Abbas also acknowledged that the return of millions of refugees (the goal of BDS) would mean the end of Israel...

In a dramatic comment on the refugee issue, furthermore, at an internal meeting that PA President Mahmoud Abbas had with the Palestinian Negotiations Support Unit on March 29, 2008, Abbas said, “On numbers of refugees, it is illogical to ask Israel to take 5 million, or even 1 million – that would mean the end of Israel.

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Abbas-We-cant-expect-Israel-to-take-in-a-million-refugees

To demonstrate how extreme the BDSM is, here's Barghouti from his book explaining why he cannot partner with Israel's most leftwing progressives and liberals, because they're Zionists...

For example, Barghouti explains that his movement cannot ally with Israeli peace groups, because even “the most radical Israeli ‘Zionist-left’ figures and groups are still Zionist, adhering to the racist principles of Zionism” that “maintain Israel’s character as a colonial, ethnocentric, apartheid state,” which BDS seeks to dismantle.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2012/1/26/BDS-boycott-Israel-Avishai-Don-Harvard-Crimson/#comment-423721058

[bravenak]

195. You have proved nothing with this garbage.

BDS has a stated goal.

[shira]

197. ROTFLOL! And people wonder why BDS advocates are considered cultish...

Their stated goals on paper don't mean shit when their leadership clearly explains in very clear language just what those goals truly are.

Barghouti let his mask slip several times.

He even lied about RoReturn leading to one Palestinian state next to another Palestinian state. He denied he said it even though it's on video.

==========

FFS, Mahmoud Abbas acknowledged full RoReturn means the end of Israel.

Wake the fuck up!

Or don't. Which goes to show how the cause you support is bullshit, smoke and mirrors.

[bravenak]

200. So this means?

Shira, you may need to calm down. I am going by the stated goals not some conspiracy theory you've got going on.
You make it sound like somebody threatened to drop a bomb. No one did. Some people have their personal opinion about what might be an effect of BDS but that is not in the stated goals.

[shira]

202. Barghouti is BDS. He stated what full RoReturn truly means. Abbas acknowledged it....

...means the end of Israel, just as Barghouti admitted. Barghouti even said he wants Israel (Zionism) euthanized.

Anyone familiar with the history of this conflict knows Arab leaders have been pining for full RoR in order to destroy Israel ever since 1948...

In the Arab world, the refugees were viewed as a potential fifth-column within Israel. As one Lebanese paper wrote:

The return of the refugees should create a large Arab majority that would serve as the most effective means of reviving the Arab character of Palestine, while forming a powerful fifth-column for the day of revenge and reckoning. 67

The Arabs believed the return of the refugees would virtually guarantee the destruction of Israel, a sentiment expressed by Egyptian Foreign Minister Muhammad Salah al-Din:

It is well-known and understood that the Arabs, in demanding the return of the refugees to Palestine, mean their return as masters of the Homeland and not as slaves. With a greater clarity, they mean the liquidation of the State of Israel. 68

The plight of the refugees remained unchanged after the Suez War. In fact, even the rhetoric stayed the same. In 1957, the Refugee Conference at Homs, Syria, passed a resolution stating:

Any discussion aimed at a solution of the Palestine problem which will not be based on ensuring the refugees’ right to annihilate Israel will be regarded as a desecration of the Arab people and an act of treason. 69

A parallel can be drawn to the time of the American Revolution, during which many colonists who were loyal to England fled to Canada. The British wanted the newly formed republic to allow the loyalists to return to claim their property. Benjamin Franklin rejected this suggestion in a letter to Richard Oswald, the British negotiator, dated November 26, 1782:

Your ministers require that we should receive again into our bosom those who have been our bitterest enemies and restore their properties who have destroyed ours: and this while the wounds they have given us are still bleeding! 70

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFrefugees.html

It's the same warmongering rhetoric, wrapped in a slightly prettier 'BDS' package for the uninformed, the useful idiots, propagandists...

Barghouti admits to the same goal. He's just a bit more clever in concealing his true aims. He admitted it, but you deny it....which goes to show just how full of bullshit your advocacy is and why no elected Dems share the same views.

[bravenak]

207. One man is not BDS.

Nice try. It's not working Shira. You're blinded by hatred, you can't see.
They stated their goals and I'm not interested in the motivations you ascribe to them. You've never had a nice word to say about a Palestinian who doesn't agree with your goals.

[shira]

213. Everyone in BDS acknowledges he's the movement's main leader. Unreal denial by you....

Utterly dishonest.

Remember what he wrote in his text about not wanting to work alongside Israel's most leftwing peace advocates? Forget the rightwingers he's against.... he can't even find common ground with Israel's most leftwing peace advocates and you think he and the movement he represents has peaceful intentions?

For example, Barghouti explains that his movement cannot ally with Israeli peace groups, because even “the most radical Israeli ‘Zionist-left’ figures and groups are still Zionist, adhering to the racist principles of Zionism that treat the indigenous Palestinians as lesser humans who are an obstacle or a 'demographic threat' to be dealt with in order to maintain Israel's character as a colonial, ethnocentric, apartheid state."

http://books.google.com/books?id=odEO0JqAuzMC&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=%E2%80%9Cthe+most+radical+Israeli+%E2%80%98Zionist-left%E2%80%99+figures+and+groups+are+still+Zionist,+adhering+to+the+racist+principles+of+Zionism%E2%80%9D&source=bl&ots=y5FsvPvoMg&sig=tZkRTr2DSeDPxX3Cqr-Teq5Nwus&hl=en&sa=X&ei=A595UtLMHfKssATUjoHIBQ&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%E2%80%9Cthe%20most%20radical%20Israeli%20%E2%80%98Zionist-left%E2%80%99%20figures%20and%20groups%20are%20still%20Zionist%2C%20adhering%20to%20the%20racist%20principles%20of%20Zionism%E2%80%9D&f=false

Get real.

And it's not just Barghouti. This is BDS, period. Against all normalization with Zionists.

What kind of peace do you really think BDS envisions when they refuse to work alongside Israel's most leftwing progressive peace activists?

[bravenak]

215. You have stated your disapproval of him before and it is duly noted.

Not everyone is a Zionist. Sorry.
Maybe the BDS movement and Israel's left have different goals. I'm not omniscient.
I think BDS has stated their goals. They want Israel to comply with international law.

[shira]

219. It's BDS, not just Barghouti. They're against all normalization with Zionists....

....including the most progressive leftwing peace activists. That should be a red flag for you right there.

And again, this isn't about complying with International Law.

There is no such law that imposes immigration policy against another nation's sovereignty (Israel) that would allow a full RoReturn which would (in both Barghouti's and Abbas' view) end Israel and therefore end Israel's sovereignty. THAT is against international law. This isn't rocket science.

In fact, the only thing BDS-holes point to is a UNGA resolution on refugees that is non-binding...meaning it's NOT international law at all. And not even that UNGA resolution mentions 3rd, 4th, or 5th generation Palestinian refugees. There's no such thing as a 3rd, 4th, or 5th generation refugee.

IOW, all this talk of international law compliance is bullshit.

They and their useful idiot followers don't know shit about international law.

[bravenak]

224. There is no red flag.

Left wing groups don't always get along with each other.
You are just repeating yourself now.

[shira]

227. No red flag? I'll spell it out for you then....

It's one thing to be against all rightwing zionists. I get it. But all leftwing ones as well? That puts you against nearly 99% of all Jews worldwide, as only a scant few are anti-zionists for 1-state. It's like finding yourself in opposition to 99% of all blacks or gays....not wanting to work alongside those who are the most leftwing progressives.

It stinks something fierce.

It's happened many times before in history, where all Jews (both left and right wing) were shunned, boycotted, hated.

Smells like the same thing...

[bravenak]

229. No Shira the comparisons you make are false.

And I won't tell you why. Because you already know.
They don't have to agree with Zionism or be in favor of it or work with groups that are Zionist groups.
Doesn't mean anything to me.

[shira]

230. So you wouldn't have a problem with folks refusing to deal with > 99% of all blacks....

...even blacks with the most progressive leftwing credentials? Obviously you have no problem with folks refusing to work with > 99% of all Jews, but how about if it were blacks instead?

[bravenak]

237. Depends what the goals of the group are.

The tea party doesn't work with 99% of blacks right now. I don't accuse them of wanting to kill us all. In fact I'm glad they don't want to work with most of us. Their policies are not in our best interest. See what I mean? False comparisons. I can do this all day Shira.

[shira]

239. The Tea Party are regressive rightwingers. Which progressive leftwing party....

....would boycott 99% of all blacks?

[bravenak]

240. Who's boycotting 99% of everybody?

I'm getting confused as to why were talking about what we're talking about.
That was probably the point.

[shira]

241. BDS anti-zios are boycotting 99% of all Jews who are not anti-zios like them.

As Barghouti wrote, they can't even get along with Israel's most leftwing progressive peace camp. Unless Jews are advocating for the end of the Jewish state altogether in favor of a majority Arab one, they're the enemies of BDS. They're being boycotted. That's greater than 99% of all Jews.

No prevaricating now, okay?

Name another movement out there you can support that would boycott 99% of all blacks or 99% of all gays.

[bravenak]

242. That's not true.

99% of Jews world wide? The whole entire world?? All of the Jews? Even the ones in America? Europe?
I just don't believe the 99% figure. I think that may be a lie.

[shira]

243. You won't find even 1% of Jews in favor of ending the Jewish state & replacing it.....

...with one majority Arab ruled state. So BDS sees them all as Zionist enemies, racists, for apartheid, ethnic cleansing, theft, oppression, etc.

Name an organization you could support that would boycott > 99% of all blacks.

You're prevaricating.

[bravenak]

244. I'm not the one making up my own figures without proof to back them up.

Once you have proof, not outrageous claims, I may be willing to look over the evidence. Not from anti Palestinian sources. Not reading anymore of that crap.
Stop trying to use black people as props in your argument. You've done it about a half a dozen times in a row.
They boycott Israel until it complies with international norms. It's a nonviolent form of protest that I approve of people using. I may join them or not depending on my preference.

[shira]

245. You're still bullshitting with that international norms crap? How many times must this BS....

...be ripped apart for the crap it is? I realize posting this to you is a waste of time since it appears you wish to be willfully blind to the facts, but here goes:

1. There is no such law that imposes an immigration policy against Israel's sovereignty that allows for (in both Barghouti's and Abbas' view) the end of Israel via demographics and therefore an end to Israeli sovereignty. THAT is against international law. It's a declaration of war. Try pulling that shit on any other nation, telling them they must allow unlimited immigration of another culture or ethnic group so that the nation changes practically overnight to something else entirely via new majority rule. Every nation in the world would consider that an act of war. Imposing war and ending a nation's sovereignty is not supported by any International Law.

2. UNGA resolutions are suggestions, not law. So UNGAR 194 on refugees isn't law.

3. Even if UNGAR 194 were international law, and it's not, there's no mention of 3rd, 4th, or 5th generation refugees.

============

I realize you're set in your ways, similar to how religious fundamentalists close their minds off to facts and reasonings. No amount of evidence, facts, or logic can penetrate those who are compromised by religious belief. I'm sure that if I asked you just WHAT you would need to see to convince you, you'd evade the question entirely. No amount of evidence would be enough for you.

[bravenak]

246. Fake numbers.

That's all I have to say about you. You make things up and act as if they were true.
Where did you get that 99% figure by the way?
Back up your talk with real evidence, not some anecdotal stuff from right wingers and then you can start demanding some answers. Back up your claims.
The rest of what you are talking about is your opinion. Not factual. I don't even know why you try to keep "explaining" it to me, but I'm just not a sucker.You can get pissed if you want to, but you just been spitting flaming nonsense throughout this entire thread. No one else lives in your version of reality.

[Violet_Crumble]

223. Someone's got to ask about this BDSM thing...

What's the safe word?

[shira]

228. Umm...what? n/t

[azurnoir]

67. SJP did NOT target Jewish students here is their statement

For more than 65 years, successive Israeli governments have used home demolitions to displace the native Palestinian population of the region in order to create and maintain a Jewish-majority state and to “Judaize” certain areas. In 1948, Israeli forces expelled approximately 750,000 Palestinians from their homes during the state’s creation, systematically destroying more than 400 Palestinian population centers in the process. Since 1967 and the start of Israel’s occupation of the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza, Israel has destroyed more than 27,000 Palestinian homes in the occupied territories. According to the United Nations, in the first nine months of 2013 alone, 862 Palestinians were made homeless by Israeli home demolitions. These facts about home demolitions, and those contained in the mock eviction notices, are all accurate and substantiated by internationally respected human rights organizations. Just a few weeks ago, both the United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights and Human Rights Watch condemned Israel’s policy of demolishing Palestinian homes, with the latter noting that it amounts to a “grave breach of the Fourth Geneva Convention.”…

We posted the notices under many doors on different floors of residence halls. We chose doors at random, aiming to maximize the number of people who would be viewing the notices, with one exception: We intentionally avoided the Hillel building and Les Turchin Chabad House, locations with many Jewish residents. This was done to avoid the possibility that Jewish students would feel that they were singled out…

This peaceful, quiet demonstration is not unprecedented. It originated with student activists at New York University and has spread to other schools across the country, including Harvard University, Yale University, San Diego State University and Florida Atlantic University. This action is part of our long-term mission to draw awareness to a human rights issue that affects the global community on social, psychological, humanitarian and economic levels.

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/10/describing-demolition-palestinian.html

[azurnoir]

55. So those that didn'read them were scared by them

guess they should have read them , huh?

[MagnumUK]

102. Lying for Islam?

[delrem]

135. Lying for the Great Koot Hoomuni.

Or maybe they were just supporting progressive values.

Why not? Do you think Palestinians and those who hope that something good befalls the Palestinian population can't possibly support progressive values?

I've got two plants. One I water regularly and move from place to place to get more sun. The other I neglect, and when I'm feeling jaundiced I under-water it from a somewhat tainted supply. But I don't kill it, or throw it out. In fact my behavior w.r.t. these plants isn't rational. I blame the abused and neglected plant for its shameful condition. So no fucken way I'm going to water and feed it and give it sun, since it only has itself to blame for its condition. I keep it alive, but no thanks to it!

My other plant thrives and for no reason I know I'm especially refreshed to bathe myself in its presence after I've shut the door on the other. One thing's for sure, my thriving plant is a thing of wonder - how could nature produce a thing of such beauty? I meditate in luxury with my thriving plant, feeling that I become closer to God.