Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumIsraeli Rapper: 'First Burn All Jails With Palestinians Inside, Then Destroy Jenin!'
One of Israels most popular hip-hop artists, Subliminal, was pretty angry after a Palestinian teen murdered an IDF soldier in his sleep earlier this week.
Subliminal posted a photo of the Palestinian, who was bandaged after apparently being roughed up during his arrest, and had some harsh words for the lad. Here are just a few of his choice phrases:
Now hell go into a jail in Israel like a hero! Will study a few degrees and get connected to all the heads of Palestinian terror groups Damn all those savages, we should burn the jails with all of them inside! And a second later we should destroy Jenin whose inhabitants gloat that they are the stronghold of terror against Israel Another embarrassing moment for me to be an Israeli! The people of Israel wake up! And all the lefties who hate what I wrote here kill yourselves already! I wish what happened yesterday would happen to a relative of yours and youll wake up from the zany dream youre holding on to and splitting and weakening my people!
Needless to say, the comments were very supportive. But Ill spare you those
MORE...
http://972mag.com/israeli-rapper-first-burn-all-jails-with-palestinians-inside-then-destroy-jenin/81922/
bravenak
(34,648 posts)They're idiots for the most part, and they talk too much.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)It's just that absolutely none of them get play on the radio. I've heard arguments that "gangsta rap" is just a new form of minstrelry, and I kinda believe it.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I used to know what they were talking about until a few years a go. Gangsta rap used to have a lot of truth in it, now it's pretty boys trying to act hard in front of the camera. My husband listens to it loud as hell in the car, I know when he gets home cause I can hear it thumping up the street when he pulls around the corner.
Rappers are always performing for the camera, and say stupid shit to get attention. Their livelihoods depend on it.
I still like Nas.
Response to bravenak (Reply #8)
delrem This message was self-deleted by its author.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I like when music tells a story, I've loved her since I was a little girl. I never realized until I was an adult that the food was shipped off to England, and I learned it from a documentary. Thanks for that song, I really liked it.
Response to bravenak (Reply #70)
delrem This message was self-deleted by its author.
King_David
(14,851 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)Response to Purveyor (Original post)
delrem This message was self-deleted by its author.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)There is also "stochastic terror", i.e. incitement, and wallowing in self-pity, which is very popular, but most likely it's an easy route to money and attention. The male gender alternative to Miley Cyrus and "twerking" is stomping around in a violent rage. A sort of preening.
And yeah, I prefer happy gay people to angry straight people, who would not?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)But - OH! - just imagine if it were an Arab rapper! Man, what a clusterfuck this thread would be, with the Supremacists demanding that we all "admit" that the lyric is representative of the depravity of all Arabs and Palestinians, citing it as evidence of everything from the necessity of blowing up Palestinians, to the reality of a worldwide media anti-Jew conspiracy.
But since it's an Israeli Jew rapping about burning Arabs alive, we get a few videos from David showing us that oh, not all Israeli rap follows this model. Which is cool, I like hearing rap from other nations (anything's better than 50 cent...) and of course the point that a society can't be judged by one rapper is absolute.y valid... but it seems a really, really different reaction from what we all know we would get if the ethnicities here were inverted.
shira
(30,109 posts)Not some nutbag lone gunner speaking for himself.
It's YOU guys who go all nuts about individuals like this rapper.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Must be some other guy that you're thinking about, huh?
shira
(30,109 posts)...who in no way represented state interests.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Shouldn't you be asking 'Name the last time anyone pro-Israel went nuts about something anti-Semitic a singer said?'
Or does the genre specifically have to be rap? All they have to do is stick a 'c' back in front of it and it sums up what I think of the entire genre. But we're not here to talk about my sophisticated and very cool musical taste, so....
The problem I have with this whole thing is that the undoubtedly hateful, bigoted words that are incitement aren't part of a song, but a rant posted somewhere. If they were part of a rap song, I'd sigh and stay true to my principles of artistic freedom, but they're not. I disagree with those who equated this with Molly Cyrus style 'Hey, look at me! I'm going to do or say something I think will shock you even though it's all been done way before me, and I won't worry about how much of a fucking moron it makes me look! That's coz I'm just so shocking and I want to sell more of my crap music!!' But this one's actual incitement. At least it needs to be condemned for what it is, and not given a pass because the person who said it's in a band...and I use the term band loosely here with a well-attuned tone of musical snobbery...
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Just checking. I mean the mouse backpack thing made me wonder if she lost a bet with her costume director, but aside from that?
shira
(30,109 posts)When we bash individual Palestinians or Israelis for theirs, that's another.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)You guys go all apoplectic whenever an individual Palestinian is singled out for something wrong that he or she did or said...where such an act speaks for all Palestinians, describes the depravity of the culture, how racism and hatred saturates Palestinian society.
While what this rapper did was disgusting, it goes beyond mere criticism of what he did. It's just part of a pile-on that confirms how zionism is racism, Israel has no right to exist, that what this rapper wrote is what zionism really is all about in a nutshell...
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Just to refresh yr memory and keep you on track, here's what you said:
I asked a very simple question, which was 'Why?' I was ignoring the fact that you used the word 'bash' along with 'apoplectic' and 'going nuts', which automatically puts a negative light on whoever's complaining about the bigotry, but now it's worth mentioning.
So, why is it one thing to complain about bigotry from Westerners, but totally another when it comes to Israelis and Palestinians?
After you've actually answered the question you were asked, maybe you can point me to all these posts in this thread you claim are ' part of a pile-on that confirms how zionism is racism, Israel has no right to exist, that what this rapper wrote is what zionism really is all about in a nutshell...' Because I (and I doubt most other DUers reading this) are spotting that...
shira
(30,109 posts)...western rightwing bigots, but not so much Palestinian ones. The former comes naturally while the latter tends not to be PC and it's seen as bigotry against Palestinians. Although bashing Israeli bigots (rightwingers) also comes naturally. Again, not as naturally as Palestinian bigots.
For example, you won't find many anti-Israel brigadiers ripping into al-Quds University or Sari Nusseibeh for their nazi rally. Bringing up the Palestinian Mufti's Naziism also seems forbidden.
So it's okay to rip into westerners (and Israelis seem to be considered westerners for some reason) but not Palestinians.
It's okay and quite fun to pile-on with Jews being bad....not so much Palestinians.
Is it really that confusing why a group of people from Europe are called "westerners"? I mean, yes it's the eastern part of Europe (and geographically not very far west of the Levant) but it's still called "the west" even in relation to Africa, which is actually far west of it...
shira
(30,109 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)And former CIS states. Their foreign minister is from Moldova. Is that "the west"? I guess it depends on what you're comparing it to (no w.r.t. France, yes w.r.t. China).
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)What you originally said was: 'When we bash individual Palestinians or Israelis for theirs (bigotry), that's another.'
I asked you why and you came out with something that wasn't an answer to anything I'd asked. Now after being asked to try again, you appear to be complaining that people don't 'bash' Palestinians enough for yr liking. Which leads me to wonder why you included Palestinians with Israelis with what you originally said...
I really wish you'd quit it with the nasty and untrue crap. No-one posting here regularly believes Jews are bad.
shira
(30,109 posts)When it comes to individuals, leaders, governments....you have one standard for westerners and another for non-westerners (except for Israel).
I'm assuming you're just as against Obama for Jeremiah Wright as you are Nutty for Dov Lior. Although Obama has distanced himself from Wright, I don't believe Nutty has. But both cases were as bad as the other.
I have no problem going after that idiot rapper for his facebook racism, but why aren't you and other pro-Pals here condemning Sari Nusseibeh, al-Quds, and the Palestinian government for nazi-style fascism?
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)And to be honest, I've got no interest in being involved in a 'discussion' that is as usual you throwing weird and untrue things at me about what you insist I think or believe. So, here's where I get off this zany bus-ride and leave you to do whatever it is you think yr doing.
Note to DUers reading this 'exchange'. When Shira returns and replies, she'll throw another handful of things about what I supposedly think and believe. Take it with the world's biggest grain of salt, and if yr interested enough to find out what I actually think, ask me. One thing I'm an expert on is what I think about things...
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)you mean the gaping void left by the passing of Sylvia Brown still is left to be filled? :
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)I heard that Sylvia Brown frequently was totally wrong with her psychic stuff, but I'd be surprised if even she mucked it up as much as Shira does when it comes to her telling everyone what I supposedly think
shira
(30,109 posts)...in the way Israelis and Palestinians are criticized here by the pro-Pal contingent. You'll note that there hasn't even been a word of condemnation of a recent nazi rally at al-Quds. At the very least, if something like that had occured at an Israeli University, the pro-I contingent wouldn't have a problem condemning it, especially when asked to comment on it.
Same WRT Nutty vs. Obama and their religious friends.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Why?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Remember what I said a couple threads back about having perspective? This might be another opportunity for you
If you're going to get into a wild, white-knuckled frenzy about something a musician says - and let me stress, I don't think you should, but I know how fond you are of apoplexy - then perhaps the guy who's calling for burning masses of human beings alive should rate rather higher on the outrage-o-meter than fuckin' Roger Waters and his balloon animals.
follow?
shira
(30,109 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)If so, I guess I'm going all nuts!
shira
(30,109 posts)Israeli
(4,141 posts)one of the better known is called SAZ , you can read about him here :
http://israel21c.org/culture/jewish-arab-rappers-in-israel-find-common-ground/
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I'm simply making the point, if the ethnicities were reversed - an Arab rapper stating that prisons full of Jews ought to be burned alive? I think we'd be seeing a very different reaction from some of the posters here.
Too bad they're like the klan version of the Graeae; you need all three of them to get a single brain cell going.
Israeli
(4,141 posts)I had to Google ' Graeae ' ..... now I've got it
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Or Persian, if you will. And Tunisian.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Not that his nationality really matters because those words are hateful however anyone looks at them...
Israeli
(4,141 posts)but sounds to me that oberliner is Ashkenazi and having a dig at the Mizrahi.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Nothing you wrote here is accurate.
Israeli
(4,141 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)His parents though are from Iran and Tunisia respectively. Maybe their traumatic experiences fleeing those countries shaped his POV. Might have been raised in an ultra-nationalistic environment as a kid.
Israeli
(4,141 posts)then what are you oberliner ?
Ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_ethnic_divisions
Israeli
(4,141 posts)I know you are religious ... I got it with the ' Hashem ' and my soul comment .
So if you are not religious Ashkenazi.......I take it you wont mind when I say how fuckin corrupt you all are ?
Ref : http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4454934,00.html
and
http://www.jpost.com/National-News/Former-chief-rabbi-Metzger-arrested-for-taking-bribe-fraud-332110
King_David
(14,851 posts)Have any thing at all to do with Oberliner?
Israeli
(4,141 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)His parents though are from Iran and Tunisia respectively. Maybe their traumatic experiences fleeing those countries shaped his POV. Might have been raised in an ultra-nationalistic environment as a kid. Who knows?
Response to oberliner (Reply #36)
delrem This message was self-deleted by its author.
King_David
(14,851 posts)"He's an unreconstructed Zionist - by which I mean that he's in a mental state of continuous and permanent war, "
What a bunch of jumbled crap...
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)I'm assuming it's only Israeli and Pelsar here currently, but you never know. Eyl could be floating round reading, so if he is, I'd love to get his take on this as well...
I went to that Subliminal's FB page.
https://www.facebook.com/SubliminalOfficial?rf=457703620988990
Assuming that Subliminal's a bit of a mindless moron who uses hatemongering as a way to get attention and $$$$, I looked at the comments for that post. I can't read Hebrew, and that Bing translator thing turns stuff into 'Kids. Were for you flowers terrorists but. Lynch terrorists! Terrorists but and for what how and. Lynch terrorists!'
Even with the godawful translation thing, I got the gist that what most of those people were saying was that Palestinians are terrorists and they need to be lynched and taking the law into their own hands is an awesome idea. Knowing that FB attracts trolls like flies to shit, is this sentiment one that's generally held in Israel, or is it mindless internet trolls who post mindless internet trolly stuff in Hebrew? Or is that their fanbase giving a good display of what being a fan is all about?
pelsar
(12,283 posts)nor do i care about him..i avoid Facebook, twitter, don't like "rap" and am stuck in the music of the 60's and 70's (yes i know its an age thing, narrow minded bigot that I am about music)
whether or not he has a following, i really don't know, and am definitely not going to look in to it.....facebook fan clubs are nothing more...hell if i know, why they join in on these things
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)While I'm with you on the avoiding twitter and not liking rap, and can half-heartedly run with music of the 70's depending on what it is (Led Zeppelin, The Who, etc), I'm prone to prowling FB and have a few band pages I hang out on, but not even the Pearl Jam one is as, uh, exciting as that one
https://www.facebook.com/PearlJam
pelsar
(12,283 posts)i'm more of the jim croce, billy joel...some abba, beatles, chicago, some simplistic beach boys kind a guy- the traditionalist
and i shall freely admit my knowledge about music is pretty pathetic
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)really okay I'm guessing I'm approximately the same age as pelsar if you said such a thing to me-I'd be insulted so 60's 70;s -King Crimson, Rush, Led Zeppelin, Zappa and the Mothers......but the fekkin' Bee Gee's not then and not now
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Quite satisfying, though having never farted in a lift, I really shouldn't make the comparison.
And I owe pelsar an apology for dropping the Night Fever bomb on him out of the blue like that.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)how to really insult you:
a little 'saturday night fever" perhaps
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)really though I just saw the movie for the first time a few months ago, Travolta's character was IMO a noxious jerk and I'm not just saying that 'cause I'm old
so on another thought do you listen to any 'newer' relatively that is bands?
pelsar
(12,283 posts)for the first time- part of it, didn't really like it, seemed "cheesy"
i hear the new music, just don't really like it, but i'm also not a huge music fan....so i've decided that being older has its privileges and i just turn on the computer, google 50 or 60 or 70's internet radio and let it play and i don't have to have an open mind to the new stuff.
btw....thats how my kids learned english, every morning on the way to nursery or kindergarten: mamas and the papas, beatles, beach boys, the simple lyrics made the english easy to learn
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Plug in artist you like. Bump into song by artist you're not familiar with, but sounds good. Plug in THAT artist... continue, until you've gone from Zepplin to Beethoven to Gabbi Lala and Tuvan throat singing. I've discovered that I actually like disco. I've laso discovered that when a disco song becomes popular, it instantly stops being "disco" and becomes "classic rock," which leads me to think that disco isn't a real musical category...
Country still sounds like really weak 70's rock, though. I keep trying, and it keeps on turning out to be The Eagles with more slide and less talent.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)So far I've worked out I'm very predictable, as I started with Spoon and so far haven't been given anything I'm not familiar with. And I keep on going round in circles and ending up with Arcade Fire over and over again. Clearly I need to play with it a bit and travel down some paths that I'm less familiar with...
I may be back in a few days. It depends how long it takes for me to get bored of this...
Israeli
(4,141 posts)not I pelsar .
how is it possible that you have " never heard of the guy " ?????
Probably as possible as you thought Uri Avnery was a Liberal Zionist ??
you American Zionists live in a parallel word to us pelsar .
pelsar
(12,283 posts)does not interest me in the least, not the reality shows, the singing shows, the celebrity interviews ad nausum
...whereas i like the older singers, classics of israel, from the same period: the 60's and 70's, the new stuff just doesn't interest me and i don't waste my time on it
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Israeli
(4,141 posts)he has a huge following Violet_Crumble and a very specific one at that .
If you are really interested then read this :
The success of Subliminal, Israels most popular rapper, is a reflection of the Jewish states conservative moment
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/music/51141/message
Its a sentiment held by many of our Right wing youth ... you see it more with football teams like Beitar Jerusalem supporters than with music fans tho.
Ref: http://972mag.com/racist-israeli-soccer-team-left-in-the-dust/40101/
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Right wing youth are noxious creatures. We've got our own variety of them here. Sadly my favourite nephew's one of them. He wants to destroy the Greens and all who vote for them. He quickly made a grudging exception for me when I told him I always vote for them in the Senate
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and if what we're seeing with the popularity of Subliminal is this manifesting itself and what that spells for the future
The Arabs, as they were called then, manned our countrys service sector for two decades after Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza in June 1967. But lacking civil or political rights, this underclass rebelled in December 1987. Termed the first intifada, the Palestinian uprising abruptly changed Israels reality. Palestinian workers disappeared from sight, first the young ones, then the elders.
Born a few months after the outbreak of the first intifada, my daughter grew up in a very different environment than I did. She has never met a Palestinian from the West Bank or Gaza. Now 19, she has seen our Palestinian neighbors only on TV, and views them as aliens. She is much more familiar with American brand names and sitcom characters than with the people who live 15 miles east of her Tel Aviv home.
http://www.salon.com/2007/11/26/two_state/
Israeli
(4,141 posts)written by someone who has actually lived thru it all
Monday, Nov 26, 2007 :
But this situation comes with a price. While allowing Israelis to ignore their unfriendly neighborhood, and live under the illusion that their country exists somewhere in Europe or North America, the status quo reduces Israelis motivation to seek compromise and peace with the Palestinians.
Yes it is " manifesting itself " .
" and what that spells for the future " .....???
That depends on which path you choose ....Peace or Armageddon
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)as you have an entire generation of Israeli's raised to see Palestinians as what could be considered less than human or lesser humans than themselves
Israeli
(4,141 posts)thats kind of insulting .
Its like me making some kind of statement that all Americans are George W Bush personified .
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)an atmosphere where Palestinians are seen as the other, the killers, somehow lesser humans- it's not that the kids themselves are Rightwing but the Israel has undeniably taken a Right ward turn, whether or not that message takes is up to the parents, sorry you misunderstood
eta for further clarity-the same has happened in the US post 9/11 where Muslims and Arabs in general are concerned
Israeli
(4,141 posts)I agree with you that it is up to the parents and also the schools ,
see :
http://www.alternativenews.org/english/index.php/aicafe/7046-aicafe-24-september
Its a never ending battle between Left versus wrong ....but dont believe the Right wing propaganda that there is no Israeli Left , one day we will have our own Obama ...and change .
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)I also remember after the 2009 election the press going about how the Israeli Left had been entirely marginalized, the Left in the US has undergone the same thing in 1980 and in 2004 especially but both times we came back and hopefully the Israeli Left will too
have you read this-it's about what ProIsrael should really mean, but unfortunately in many cases these days does not
http://972mag.com/i-am-pro-israel-too-reflections-on-972s-use-of-term/82294/
Israeli
(4,141 posts)there is nobody on the horizon of the Israeli political Left that has the charisma and the credentials to unite us , and to unite us we need to include the Israeli Arab political parties .
We had one once ...... shattered dreams .
But amongst the peace camp the hope is still alive , that hope you can hear and feel in the music of our youth :
( this is when I expect King_David to jump in with some comment about Harel Skaat being gay )
The song is HA'ISH HAHU ( That Man ) written by Nathan Yehonatan who lost a son in the army, ...lyrics include ....
"where in the world can you find people like those weeping willows?".
Where can you find people like the weeping willow who stand tall and strong
against everything the world dishes out to them? "
Its become a song of longing for someone to come along ...another Rabin ....
" Where are there more people
Like that man
That was like the weeping willows " .
King_David
(14,851 posts)After years of speculation, Israeli pop star and 2010 Eurovision contestant Harel Skaat has finally come out of the glass closet. (Weve chosen the word glass because we could all see right through it).
The singer, who Wiwi dubbed the sexiest Eurovision contestant ever earlier this year, made the announcement in a documentary aired on Israels Channel 2.
http://wiwibloggs.com/2010/10/27/harel-skaat-is-now-officially-gay/
I also agree with you that Rabin was a great man a Towering Israeli and a Jewish Hero and a Proud Zionist and IDF soldier and a trusted peacemaker ..
( and most certainly not a Post Zionist or passé Zionist or whatever your cult of 25 is called)
Response to Israeli (Reply #64)
delrem This message was self-deleted by its author.
Israeli
(4,141 posts)but honestly ... I dont think we can do it alone .
we need the outside pressure from Obama and the rest of the world .
pelsar
(12,283 posts)if you really believe so....i'll give u a few questions to ask Israeli, that you can ask in public...and when she answers you'll get a better idea of even how far minority extreme israeli left, has significant differences between your pov and hers.
of course as she has said so many times..her culture is not mine, so it should be an interesting discussion.
are you willing to play?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)So understanding this lets hear your questions
pelsar
(12,283 posts)The european left as the does the american left as its representative here...has some pretty definitive views...so why don't u ask her the following:
ask her about ROR....if i understand your belief, is that it has to be 100%, is that hers?
ask about the BDSM movement, if she agrees and believes her kibbutz and its products should be boycotted
ask her about justice...how only true justice to the Palestenians will bring about true peace (you might have to define it for her, your definition of justice)
ask her about leaving her home, given that it sits upon an arab village....
should she return to europe as others believe....
why is her son serving in the occupation army...is that not immoral?, why did she?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)although it should be noted that to produce the results you seem to desire each of those items must interpreted in it's most extreme possible way don't they, I'm asking mostly to see the reasons you'll come up with to fit your needs
pelsar
(12,283 posts)my "needs" is just to see a discussion between a far israeli leftist (pretty much as far as they go) vs the Pro Palestenian crowd here
aren't you curious to see if your version of justice has a connection to hers?...if there is some kind of "meeting of the minds" I used to love it when we had the muslim (i forget her name) here, as she brought in a different viewpoint.
now you have a real bonified card carrying israeli leftist, I think it would be quite an interesting discussion.
___
i can ask, but we all know what she thinks about me, and anyway the subject that i think should be discussed is from your point of view, not mine...
so why don't you want to ask her? you don't want to know?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but I'm curious what does her kibbutz produce that is exported outside of Israel?
and "the Muslim" as you put it, well I can tell you this much-she too was an American and I think a convert, she married a Palestinian man so I'm not all too sure how 'different' her opinions would be
pelsar
(12,283 posts)is between the hard core pro palestenains who talk about justice and Rand R..thats not me. I can't argue your point of view.
yes i believe your right...that she was an american that married a Palestenian from gaza.
anyway its a simple question, either you want to know about her opinion as to how it relates to yours or you don't. if you prefer not to know, just say so.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)more than once in fact but here it is again-yes 100% RoR should be allowed however Israel never do that so if I was negotiating I would give it up but for a price something like say Israel pulling out of the entire Jordan River valley
pelsar
(12,283 posts)Last edited Mon Nov 25, 2013, 01:47 AM - Edit history (1)
i'm just curious about hers....she once linked to her fathers online belief that mentioned RofR but neglected to mention any numbers. Infact there was some RoR after 48....apparently not enough to satisfy anybody (except those who returned).
theres also the BSM ....thats pretty standard amongst your left..does she agree to it, is she willing to reduce her luxurious life style in order to put pressure on the govt?
she was in the occupation army, how does that square with those here who see it as an immoral army? Lots to discuss, but its not for me to ask since i can't argue your point of view.
the anti zionist movement as i understand is an attempt to connect to the western left that sees zionism as racism....i would like to know just how far they are willing to go. We've seen progressive left demonstrating with hamas (about as anti progressive as one can get), would her anti zionist movement also join in?
thats why i'm asking....
she has made it clear that us american zionists are a "lesser" citizen then those like herself who's grand parents came and stole the land from the natives, she has also made it clear that she thinks little of israeli citizens with russian ancestry (at those have don't have her roots in the country), hence its clear she won't take any serious question from a mere israeli with american roots (what is it called in america when you look down upon the new immigrants?....dare you say it?)
...But you, now you she might answer, so its worth a try
why not?
Israeli
(4,141 posts)That is your own interpretation .... based on the last round of personal attacks you made upon my politics and my society and my culture .
I asked you then and I ask you again ..... you obviously dont like us so why do you think we should like you ?
Where do you get the " she thinks little of israeli citizens with russian ancestry " from ?
I dont remember ever mentioning anything on here about Russians ???
Truth be told I dont have a problem with them or with the Ethiopians or with the Mizrahi ...they all had good reasons for coming here .
So what kind of persecution did you face in America ?
pelsar
(12,283 posts)how are you defining the "us" that you keep on mentioning, perhaps you might want to define that clearly.
(and just a reminder, my wife is a kibbutznik as is her whole wonderful family, some go back further than yours, some are mizrach, some ashkenazi-her mother adopted a mizrachi family that lost their parents, and on the right i have religious family, some in the west bank, who are also very caring and as strong zionist as those on the kibbutz) and even some hariedi cousins, who are not zionists....they all vote from the left to the right and l like them all.
so now, who is the "us" that i don't like?
I dont remember ever mentioning anything on here about Russians ???
check your posts, you'll find it
So what kind of persecution did you face in America ? almost nothing, i grew up in nice suburb.
Israeli
(4,141 posts)your words not mine ..... you define us.. you were the one that started with this not I .
You check my posts ... your the one making the false accusations ...you back it up .
So what kind of persecution did you face in America ? almost nothing, i grew up in nice suburb.
thank you ... my point exactly .
pelsar
(12,283 posts)you got me...i don't like people who look down upon others....people who think they are better than others, for whatever their reasons (as in your grandparents made aliya, which then makes you "better" than those who came later, or you divide those who made aliya in to "good and bad depending upon their reasons for immigrating....)
your posts are full of that attitude.....
i have no idea what your point is, that i grew up in a nice suburb in america and decided to move to israel....why don't your write it out?
Israeli
(4,141 posts)you think I'm " far minority extreme israeli left " ...... I'm not .
Just goes to prove to me how little you know of us American .
Play ?
Play with this :
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.559785
pelsar
(12,283 posts)Last edited Mon Nov 25, 2013, 05:03 PM - Edit history (2)
since there seems to be a lack of "internet courage" amongst the americans here..so .I'll ask, and assume that your israeli enough to answer straight and honest
why don't you explain to your friends here how you view the Right of Return?....will you vacate your kibbutz to let the descendants of those that your grandparents kicked out return? Some here have explained it to me, that real justice means that ALL of them get to return, descendants an all...and your home is right on one of theirs.
if not..why not?
how about the boycott movement BSM..your "american/canadian friends here are all for it...are you? and if so are you boycotting israeli made products? boycotting the universities like shenkar? Or perhaps you disagree with the BSM movement?...its pretty anti zionist as i understand it, so it should be a good fit.
_____
btw an article in a paper proves nothing, absolutely nothing, its just an opinion.....what does prove your minority status are the amount of anti-zionists that have been voted in to the knesset...so how many are you?
what was that number? (I assume you have that famous kibbutz toughness to answer)
and just for fun, and my own amusement, why don't you ask your new american/canadian left friends here how they view your attitude towards israeli immigrants?....think of it as a cultural exercise.
Israeli
(4,141 posts)how old are you pelsar ?
the only true friends I have are Israeli like myself .... you know , the ones you call " elitists "
this is the internet if you havent noticed .
Once again I refer you to Gush Shalom .....its all up there pelsar all you have to do is read .
" btw an article in a paper proves nothing, absolutely nothing, its just an opinion.....what does prove your minority status are the amount of anti-zionists that have been voted in to the knesset...so how many are you? "
Its the opinion of a post zionist pelsar ....not a Liberal Zionist
Now there is another of your ' interpretations ' .... your sounding more like shira as the days go by ....a non Zionist does not a " anti-zionist " make .
You guys tried that with us already ....didnt work then and wont work now :
ref : http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1343412021/
Since then, the term has been expropriated as a synonym for anti-Zionism. But I used it quite literally. As I explained to the judge, my position is that Zionism was a historical movement with its glorious achievements as well as its darker side. One can admire or condemn it, but either way Zionism has come to its logical end with the creation of the State of Israel. Zionism was the scaffolding that made the building of the state possible, but once the house is built, the scaffolding becomes a hindrance and must be removed.
So the judge decided that I am not an anti-Zionist. She ordered the defendants to pay us hefty compensation, which helped us to finance our activities.
I still adhere to that definition.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)i 'm not asking "gush shalom" ....gush shalom is not here. I ask what your opinion is ....its your house thats sitting on stolen land...are you willing to return it? willing to join the boycott movement against your kibbutz to further justice?
well? or is it just a fairy tale, the "brave israelis"
my opinion of the "post zionism" still stands..its a pathetic effort to connect to the western left which is anti-zionist. And the only way you can do it is to denounce zionism, hence the term "post-zionsim".....And a good measure of how its "caught on" is by the numbers in the knesset...well how many are you?
Israeli
(4,141 posts)Gush Shalom is here .... I was amongst its founding members .
Your opinion of post zionism is perfectly understandable from a Zionist viewpoint .
How many non Zionists are there in the Knesset ?
Am I allowed to mention the Arab members and Hadash ?
Then there are those of us that vote Meretz ( as you say you do ) ....but are not Zionists .
How many non Zionists are there in the Knesset ?..... your guess is as good as mine .
How many non Zionists are there in the country ? .....many more than there is in the Knesset pelsar .
pelsar
(12,283 posts)i doubt you will find many arab israelis, who were once zionists and are now "post zionists" but if you can find them, count them in.
since the question is of how many "post zionists" there are, then it would nice to get some concrete evidence other than what you say....
So as far as I understand, its a political movement that as of yet has no party, doesn't really show up in the news, i can't recall any kind of protest or public event with the post-zionists.....
now it doesn't mean one day there might be a post-zionist prime minister, but that day is not today and the post-zionist movement today is minuscule....
Israeli
(4,141 posts)after all your the expert
cant tell a Liberal Zionist from a post zionist
your about as knowledgeable of the Israeli Left as King_David and shira ......
and what do you both have in common ?
pelsar
(12,283 posts)Last edited Wed Nov 27, 2013, 05:43 AM - Edit history (1)
i don't really understand why you don't want to explain this post-zionism of yours. I understand fully the platform of the general left in israel, yet you refuse (i've asked a few times already) for you to explain this post zionisim position on the Right of Return, of the stolen land your kibbutz is on, on the international boycott movement from you personal point of view.
if your not going to explain your opinion, why complain that some israelis, that don't have your socialist, colonialist roots, don't understand your movement or your culture?
Israeli
(4,141 posts)how insensitive does it get for you ?
the morning after Arik dies you are still pushing your agenda ... whilst the rest of us are still getting over the shock :
http://972mag.com/arik-einstein-the-iconization-of-a-non-icon/82540/
this thread started with Subliminal
let it end with Arik :
Israeli
(4,141 posts)I forgot to answer this last time :
http://972mag.com/i-am-pro-israel-too-reflections-on-972s-use-of-term/82294/
I agree with every word she wrote .....emphasise on this :
In return I give you this :
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/archive/1382094685?ver=Fri%2C+18+Oct+2013+14%3A11%3A28+%2B0300&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Gush-shalom-english+%28Gush-Shalom%29
Says it all .
shira
(30,109 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)alas it's too late I explained what I meant now are you willing?
King_David
(14,851 posts)Was asking Israeli why should she be surprised at your post .
You did write that post, did you not?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but considering I explained and Israeli accepted that, what exactly is your point?
King_David
(14,851 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)considering she and I had already cleared that up
Response to azurnoir (Reply #63)
delrem This message was self-deleted by its author.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Yep..
shira
(30,109 posts)More Palestinians are now coming into Israel from the W.Bank to work in Israel. The numbers are getting closer to how things were prior to the 2nd Intifada. It's why all those new "racist" buses transporting Palestinians from their towns into Israel were needed.
That's a positive step, right?
But if Intifada 3 starts and the suicide bombings resume from the W.Bank, would you oppose Israel putting restrictions on Palestinians entering into Israel?