Court tells state to explain why 'racist' rabbis not prosecuted

[Scurrilous]

Court questions attorney-general's decision not to try rabbis whose interpretation of the Bible allegedly permits the killing of noncombatants during war • State says four prominent rabbis did not actively endorse illegal acts of inciting racism and violence.

<snip>

"Torat Hamelech, a book on the Halachah and its treatment of non-Jews during war, continues to generate controversy, some four years after its publication.

The book, which literally means "The Way of the King," was authored by two prominent national religious rabbis -- Rabbis Yitzhak Shapira and Yosef Elitzur -- who allegedly make the case that killing noncombatant gentiles during war was sanctioned by the Bible under certain circumstances.

On Wednesday, the High Court of Justice said Attorney-General Yehuda Weinstein and the State Attorney's Office have three months to explain why no charges were pressed against the authors of the book. The ruling comes after the Israel Religious Action Center and the Coalition Against racism in Israel petitioned the court to have Weinstein overruled. Weinstein will also have to explain his decision not to prosecute Kiryat Arba and Hebron Chief Rabbi Dov Lior and the Od Yosef Chai Yeshiva head Rabbi Yitzchak Ginsburgh, who endorsed the book. Rabbinical endorsements are usually written by well-respected figures to elevate the author's standing and vouch for his or her credibility.

According to the petitioners, they turned to the court only after repeated pleas to the State Attorney's Office and the attorney-general were ignored. According to their lawyer, Leora Bechor, the rabbis should be put on trial for inciting to racism. "The book is laden with highly racist comments that incite to violence against Arabs and other minorities in Israel; this also amounts to sedition."

http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=13495

[shaayecanaan]

1. video

[Violet_Crumble]

2. Good....

Something like that would clearly fall under racial vilification laws here.

The article says they're 'prominent national religious rabbis'. Does that mean they're on the payroll of the state?

[Israeli]

3. Some background for you ....

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1309538748/

[Violet_Crumble]

4. Thanks for posting that. It's been a while since I read Uri Avnery...

The article answered a question I had, too.

To give you a bit of DU background, I was going to go digging back in DU2 and see if I could find the post where someone once told me with a straight face that Dov Lior isn't nearly as bad as pro-Palestinian groups like the International Solidarity Movement. That was a real WTF??? moment if ever there was one. I might track it down when I have a bit more time on my hands...

[shira]

5. Dov Lior is just as bigoted/racist as Gilad Atzmon and those who support Atzmon....

....like the ISM.

What's difficult about this?

And here's that thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x375292

There's literally a wealth of information on the web WRT Atzmon's connections to the ISM and FreeGaza (whose founders like Greta Berlin are also ISM).

[Violet_Crumble]

6. Really? Yr going to have to help me out with that one...

Even though I'm sure at some point in the past you would have accused me of *supporting* Atzmon, I know nothing of him apart from what I've read here, and that's enough to work out the guy's a raving anti-Semite. So as yr an expert on him, can you point me to something that gives some information about how he's employed in an official capacity by a Palestinian govt, and it's in that official capacity that he incites hatred and the killing of Jews? Oh, and a few quotes advocating the killing of Jews would be helpful as well. Then I'd be able to say you've got some sort of point...

While I know you love playing six degrees of separation where if someone's once walked on the same street as someone who once went to a high-school reunion with the mother of someone who's an anti-Semite, that makes them a *supporter* of the anti-Semite, I'm not seeing how anyone else could get the connection yr trying to make between a state-funded, hate-filled bigot who advocates the killing of non-Jewish non-combatants (Lior) and a left-wing organisation that isn't bigoted (ISM), let alone being state-funded and advocating for the killing of Jews. And that would be because the two aren't the same at all...

Anyway, as the Chief Rabbi of Israel endorsed that revolting book that's the subject of the OP, using one degree of separation that would make him a *supporter* of Lior, right?

[shira]

7. (Long Post) Atzmon is as vile as a gutter antisemite gets...

Call him crazy and disturbed, but he's from the old-school. Decades ago, there was nothing wrong with publicly hating the Jews, wanting them dead, etc. He's not at all ashamed of his views. In a way, I respect him for his honesty. He's far more honest than the cowards who hate Jews but never admit to it.

Some choice quotes:
http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/article/1493/gilad-atzmon-supporting-holocaust-deniers-and-spreading-hatr

“I guess that amongst the survivors of such a nightmare scenario, some may be bold enough to argue that ‘Hitler might have been right after all.’”

“Nobody speaks about throwing the Jews to the sea.

"Nobody?"

Nobody.

"Never?"

“No no. No. And it’s not fair on the sea as well. I never thought of that one”

laughter

In 2004 the Board of Deputies of British Jews criticized Atzmon for saying, "I'm not going to say whether it is right or not to burn down a synagogue, I can see that it is a rational act."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Atzmon

Here's a Californian chapter of the ISM recently promoting Atzmon:
http://www.ism-norcal.org/dennis-bernstein-in-conversation-with-gilad-atzmon/

Here's FreeGaza promoting Atzmon 2 years ago:
http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2011/06/26/us-boat-to-gaza-proudly-presents-antisemite-gilad-atzmon-at-its-fundraising-party/

I mention FreeGaza because it was founded by the same folks who founded the ISM. Remember the Greta Berlin kerfuffle?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113418727

Lots of Palestinian supporters had to back away from FreeGaza as a result. Like Huwaida Arraf and Adam Shapiro of the ISM:
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/statement-former-board-members-free-gaza-movement

Naomi Klein resigned from FreeGaza too:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10151241315939919&id=12400234918

Bekkah Wolf of the ISM said Berlin's Facebook Group was vile WAY before she posted the Nazi videos:
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/10/if-only-it-was-just-one-tweet-one-activists-experience-in-the-our-land-facebook-group.html

But then there was Paul Larudee, a co-founder of ISM. Here's Larudee on the Greta Berlin affair.
http://www.deliberation.info/greta-berlin-in-salem-mas/

Paul Larudee
October 8, 2012 at 2:00 am Log in to leave a comment

Dispel the Doubts? What Doubts?

I am not going to waste my time trying to liberate Palestine by prosecuting Greta Berlin for the offense of – in essence – turning onto a one-way street against the traffic.

Doing so gets a lot of attention, and the drivers heading towards you will say a lot of nasty things. However, it doesn’t necessarily mean that you secretly harbor a desire to sabotage the traffic or that you are part of a movement to end one-way streets. It means that you weren’t paying attention to the road signs.

Greta has apologized for the error. According to Ali Abunimah, however, “many people” want to “dispel the doubts” by having Greta publish the full conversation in which the offending video link occurs.

What doubts?

This is not a rhetorical question. What exactly is the accusation, if any? I have to stretch my imagination quite a bit to even guess the intention of this statement. That Greta is a closet racist? A spy?

Or is this just a fishing expedition? A grand jury? A House Unpalestinian Activities Committee investigation, looking for anything that might lead to an indictment?

What Ali and Co. are asking (to continue the analogy) is to know who else was in the car, what the contents of the trunk (boot) may have been, the car specifications and legal ownership, any outstanding liens, the time of day and weather conditions, etc.
I disagree with Greta on substantive issues and other real concerns, but that is just the point. Let us disagree on and discuss substance, not this foolishness. There is enough disunity already. Can we please set these matters aside and just liberate Palestine?

It wasn't bad enough that Berlin did what she did...her fellow ISM co-founder, Larudee, defended her gutter antisemitism.

But what does Berlin have to do with Atzmon, you ask? She endorsed his most recent, vile and depraved book:

"Gilad's "The Wandering Who" entertains, pushes and irritates us. His painful journey through what it means to be Jewish, what the consequences are of carrying that realization around, and his ultimate acceptance of who he is makes me awfully glad I was raised a Methodist.

Not to be missed and not to be put down for later, his book is one of the best reads of 2012."

Greta Berlin - Co-Founder, the Free Gaza movement

And then there's Larudee's glowing review of Atzmon's book:
http://www.paltelegraph.com/world/middle-east/77-middle-east/10205-a-lingering-what-a-review-of-the-wandering-who-by-gilad-atzmon.html

That shouldn't be surprising given Larudee's northern California chapter of ISM recently promoted Atzmon. If you clicked on the link above, you'd have seen that. Larudee is the head of that chapter.

This goes well beyond some weak, guilt-by-association charge. Don't you agree?

[Violet_Crumble]

14. Do you want to go back and try to answer the question I asked you?

Because I couldn't help but notice that it was as though yr reading some post other than mine and got busy answering a question I didn't ask you. If I'd asked you to prove that Atzmon is an anti-Semite, that would have hit the nail on the head, but I didn't, which should have been obvious seeing as how I said in the post you replied to that what little I've read of and from him has me thinking he's a nasty anti-Semite.

So, let's take this in tiny bite sized chunks. Here's the first bit of what I asked you that you didn't answer:

So as yr an expert on him (Atzmon), can you point me to something that gives some information about how he's employed in an official capacity by a Palestinian govt, and it's in that official capacity that he incites hatred and the killing of Jews?

Once that's out of the way, we can move onto the second part...

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

16. What you're experiencing is the Hasbara Two-step.

It is intended to lead you away from the OP and lead you nowhere.

Good catch on your part.

[delrem]

17. hmmm, yes, that's the essential disconnect.

The inability to distinguish law and the sanction of law in gov't appointments and dealings from the state of mind of individuals. The inability to distinguish racist law (e.g. the old SA apartheid law) from individuals who hold racist views and/or make racist statements and/or perpetrate race crimes.

So the rantings of 'Gilad Atzmon' are thrown into the ring, like a dead squid, as some kind of response to an article discussing state law, the application of state law. Weird. The lowest level reductionism.

[shira]

19. The argument is about hypocrisy. Those who condemn one type of racism and bigotry....

Last edited Mon Nov 25, 2013, 07:32 PM - Edit history (3)

...while endorsing and supporting another type are hypocrites and haters themselves. That was the point.

As for state law and application of state law, there are videos from MEMRI and PMW that show how racist and violent the PA and Hamas are, preaching hate, inciting individuals to violence and terror. Those are the views of the PA and Hamas.

As bad as Lior is, he speaks for his religious constituency and no one else. His views are not the views of the state. Just as bigoted and racist senators and congress-critters aren't mouthpieces for the government but they're paid by the gov't.

I don't expect you to acknowledge the difference b/c in your view, Israel is uniquely racist, unlike any other nation. Well, except for every other nation out there that is worse.

Reminds me of Noam Chomsky blasting BDS hypocrisy and antisemitism. Bigots and Racists who pretend they're against racism & don't care about hurting Palestinians. You should watch and learn...

#t=598

[delrem]

24. No, shira, the issue was your citing Gilad Atzmon, to deflect from the OP.

Todays edit to insert a vid of Noam Chomsky discussing the BDS movement is completely irrelevant and just shows that in your capacity as deflector you have no other aim, no other object, so don't give a damn about the relevance of your sideshows.

[Violet_Crumble]

22. The trick is to try and keep it focused...

With that one, they're determined to go off on tangents and talk about anything else but the subject of the OP, so every now and again I enjoy the challenge of trying to keep it on track and not letting it wander off down all sorts of different paths which invariably end up a million miles away from where things started

[delrem]

25. hasbara in DU I/P is entertaining, all right.

That one just posted an interesting cut from an interview with Chomsky, no less, in 2010 and about BDS, or rather, about what Chomsky thinks of the I/P BDS movement. That one seems to believe that posting that cut from a Chomsky interview is sufficient reason to insinuate that other DU I/P contributors are "hypocrites". So that one isn't interested in the actual intellectual challenge provoked by Chomsky the academic, that one is only interested in irrelevant slander.

I wouldn't let that one lead such a conversation. !!!

A colleague of that one (may the earth goddess nurture me through these trials) is (he says) trying to give me a lesson in "logic", focusing on the example that I provided several weeks earlier of Aharon Barak's ruling on the meaning of "Israel is a Jewish State" - in an argument to the effect that Israel is indeed an apartheid state. His reasoning is that Aharon Barak's ruling is irrelevant to actual Israeli state law and that it somehow doesn't count as a conclusive fact about it. Thus a colleague of that one is busy denying that Israel is a Jewish State, and the whole of DU team-hasbara is solidly behind his argument. That is bizarre.

[Violet_Crumble]

27. Ah, thanks for reminding me of the other thread I've got to revisit...

[shira]

18. Atzmon isn't employed in an official capacity by the Palestinian govt....

Last edited Mon Nov 25, 2013, 01:38 PM - Edit history (3)

However, he is revered by the ISM, which you believe is a wonderful pro-Palestinian organization.

And as you're well aware, all governments employ and pay racists. From congressmen to parliamentarians, from Judges to teachers. If I'm not mistaken, Israel also employs hateful Christian, Muslim, and Atheist leaders as well...like in the Knesset or as leaders of certain state-funded religious schools. Wanna hang them high and burn them at the stake too?

[Violet_Crumble]

21. You should have stopped at the subject line on that one...

Because the first line after that is total bullshit, and the second is yet another example of you using the 'but everyone else does it too!!!' excuse when it comes to Israel, a tactic you NEVER EVER EVER use when it comes to Palestinians...

An extremist on the state salary who advocates the murder of non-Jews. And what a shock it is to see that Netanyahu has praised him. I've bolded it in the hope that you won't miss something that's bolded:

Sometimes, one advertisement is enough to make everything clear. On Sunday, the day before the 18th anniversary of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin's assassination, an advertisement appeared in this paper about Rabbi Dov Lior. It wasn’t an ad calling for him to be indicted. Rather, it was a statement of sweeping support for “the great Rabbi Lior, may he live long and happily,” calling him a “teacher of tens of thousands” and attacking the Knesset member who dared say something negative about Lior and thereby merited having someone spit in his face. It is signed by 105 important rabbis – rabbis who receive their salaries from the state.

If Lior were a Muslim religious leader responsible for similar attacks on Jews, in a best-case scenario Israel would try and convict him, sentencing him to dozens of consecutive life terms on the basis of far weaker evidence. The more likely scenario is that he would be the target of a “pinpoint prevention,” as the army euphemistically terms assassinations.

But Lior is Jewish. And therefore, his partner in orchestrating demonstrations where they chanted “With blood and fire, we will expel Rabin” publicly called Lior “the elite unit leading the State of Israel.” That partner is Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who, seven months after this incitement, took over Rabin’s official residence

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.556311

And there's more. Lior has been involved in Likud's campaigns:

In a somewhat cheeky tone, the campaign added: “We hope that this will not interfere with the Likud campaign, in which the honorable rabbi is involved.”

http://www.jewishpress.com/tag/hebron-kiryat-arba-cheif-rabbi-dov-lior/

So, now we've established that unlike Dov Lior (we can add 'hang them high and burn them at the stake' to the long list of negative terms you use for anyone who speaks out against incitement and calls to kill Palestinians such as 'going nuts', 'apoplectic', and 'bash') Atzmon isn't employed in an official capacity by anyone and is an individual, no matter how repulsive I find his anti-Semitism, let's move on to the next part of the question. Remember to try to stay focused, okay?

The next part of my question was to provide me with some quotes from Atzmon where he's advocated the murder of Jews. It's merely an added exercise now, as you've admitted that he's not in any official position of influence, but I'd be interested in seeing those quotes.

[shira]

23. Stop playing games, VC. Atzmon is definitely revered by the ISM...

A couple posts back, plenty of evidence was given to you. The leaders of the ISM like Paul Larudee promote his filth.

As to the rest of your post, you're just confirming that you still don't understand the difference b/w a western democracy and a totalitarian dictatorship. You quoted Nutty on Lior, but let me ask you: Do you believe when Nutty talks like that, he's doing so on behalf of the gov't? When US officials make racist statements, are they doing so on behalf of the the US? Is such racist talk actual US or Israeli policy? Your answers should be no, no, & no.

Now when we talk about the PA or Hamas and their racist representatives in government, the media, educational and religious institutions, it comes straight from the boss. Whether it's the head of Hamas or Mahmoud Abbas, that's exactly what they're all about. That's how state-controlled totalitarian governments operate.

Netanyahu can be booted out of power tomorrow and replaced by a leftist. That doesn't happen and cannot happen in a totalitarian society. It's really difficult going on with someone like yourself who is seemingly ignorant about this. Okay, I don't think you're really ignorant, but just pretending to be. I think you know better but are playing games.

The next part of my question was to provide me with some quotes from Atzmon where he's advocated the murder of Jews. It's merely an added exercise now, as you've admitted that he's not in any official position of influence, but I'd be interested in seeing those quotes.

Look a couple posts up in #7 where I copied a few choice quotes about throwing Jews into the sea, how burning synagogues is a rational act, and how maybe Hitler was right.

[Violet_Crumble]

26. Yr losing the plot again. Let me try and help you focus...

1. You initially doubled down on the totally zany claim that the ISM is far worse than an extremist Israeli Rabbi on the payroll of the Israeli govt who openly advocates the murder of non-Jews, amongst other revolting things. You insisted they're worse because they have some sort of connection with Atzmon, some obscure fringe anti-Semite who I'd have never have heard of except yr constantly popping up in threads that aren't about him to go on and on about him as though he's the most important person in the world.

2. I asked you a question, which was as Dov Lior's on the payroll of the Israeli govt and speaking in an official capacity, is Atzmon on the payroll of any govt and speaking in an official capacity.

3. After ignoring the question, you finally answered it with a 'Yes.....but!!!'

4. I asked you for quotes from Atzmon advocating the murder of Jews. Of course, unlike Lior, he wasn't speaking in an official capacity, but I was still interested in finding out.

5. At this point on reading yr latest response, I'm suspecting I'm not the only person at DU thinking to myself: 'Hold on here! Shira flies into a rage and calls the ISM bigots and Jew-haters because at some point someone from the ISM said they liked Atzmon. So how come she's now sitting there making excuses when it comes to Netanyahu calling Dov Lior 'the elite unit leading the State of Israel.'? Using Shira's logic wouldn't that make the organisation Netanyahu is with (the Israeli govt) raving maniacal bigots? After all, that's the logic she used with the ISM.'

Now when we talk about the PA or Hamas

We don't and we weren't and we're not going to. Much the same as the lack of understanding you have of political ideologies like fascism and Marxism. Or dictatorships or totalitarianism for that matter, you have a complete lack of knowledge when it comes to Hams or especially the PA, and my experience over the past few years is you've got no interest in learning. Which is fine with me, as I won't waste my breath...

[shira]

32. You're not paying attention...

1. You initially doubled down on the totally zany claim that the ISM is far worse than an extremist Israeli Rabbi on the payroll of the Israeli govt who openly advocates the murder of non-Jews, amongst other revolting things. You insisted they're worse because they have some sort of connection with Atzmon, some obscure fringe anti-Semite who I'd have never have heard of except yr constantly popping up in threads that aren't about him to go on and on about him as though he's the most important person in the world.

Again, I bring up the ISM or the BDSM to demonstrate the hypocrisy of certain people who pretend to be against all types of racism and bigotry. Many of these same people are racists and bigots themselves. They're certainly not progressive or liberal when they are part of or support such organizations. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?

5. At this point on reading yr latest response, I'm suspecting I'm not the only person at DU thinking to myself: 'Hold on here! Shira flies into a rage and calls the ISM bigots and Jew-haters because at some point someone from the ISM said they liked Atzmon. So how come she's now sitting there making excuses when it comes to Netanyahu calling Dov Lior 'the elite unit leading the State of Israel.'? Using Shira's logic wouldn't that make the organisation Netanyahu is with (the Israeli govt) raving maniacal bigots? After all, that's the logic she used with the ISM.'

Again, see above. And I have no problem criticizing Nutty for his embrace of Lior. Our POTUS has his own history with Jeremiah Wright.

Now when we talk about the PA or Hamas...

We don't and we weren't and we're not going to. Much the same as the lack of understanding you have of political ideologies like fascism and Marxism. Or dictatorships or totalitarianism for that matter, you have a complete lack of knowledge when it comes to Hams or especially the PA, and my experience over the past few years is you've got no interest in learning. Which is fine with me, as I won't waste my breath...

Of course you don't want to talk about the PA or Hamas, who are 100x worse. You cannot even bring yourself to condemn the al-Quds fascist rally from earlier this month. I want to know what kind of leftist/progressive doesn't have a problem with that sort of nazi-style fascism, or with Sari Nusseibeh's letter condoning it. If we're going to criticize western leadership, why not the Palestinian as well? Is it not PC? Is it bigoted?

[shaayecanaan]

28. Netanyahu doesn't speak on behalf of the Israeli government?

Who knew?

[shira]

33. How much stock do you put in Netanyahu's embrace of Lior?

As much stock as Obama's history with Jeremiah Wright....or more? And why?

[shaayecanaan]

34. Are you comparing the two? nt

[shira]

8. Now as to supporting Lior...

Any asshole endorsing his depraved book is w/o question a bigoted POS. Whether a fellow Rabbi or not, they're disgraceful.

Same as the assholes who endorse Gilad Atzmon's book, like ISM founders Paul Larudee and Greta Berlin, or John Mearsheimer and Richard Falk.

[azurnoir]

9. Has it ever occurred to you that about the only here that mentions Atzmon and Berlin is the poster

your addressing? Frankly I'd never heard of either of them until she brought them up, with the pretense that they represent the entire ProPalestinian movement

One must wonder why so very much time and bandwidth is spent on them as opposed to the real issues

[Jefferson23]

10. If you'll forgive for jumping in here. I believe it is referred to as a smoke and mirrors

approach to the issues of the conflict...rinse repeat...the word, anti semitism.

As if that were the main obstacle to peace, and as if either of those individuals have
any political power to bring about an end to the occupation.

[azurnoir]

11. Exactly these folks do not really have any political influence on those in power

I've wondered though if it's sort of a hearts and minds thing for the general public

[shira]

13. Here's Ali Abunimah on why being against Atzmon is so important

We reaffirm that there is no room in this historic and foundational analysis of our struggle for any attacks on our Jewish allies, Jews, or Judaism; nor denying the Holocaust; nor allying in any way shape or form with any conspiracy theories, far-right, orientalist, and racist arguments, associations and entities. Challenging Zionism, including the illegitimate power of institutions that support the oppression of Palestinians, and the illegitimate use of Jewish identities to protect and legitimize oppression, must never become an attack on Jewish identities, nor the demeaning and denial of Jewish histories in all their diversity.

Indeed, we regard any attempt to link and adopt antisemitic or racist language, even if it is within a self-described anti-imperialist and anti-Zionist politics, as reaffirming and legitimizing Zionism. In addition to its immorality, this language obscures the fundamental role of imperialism and colonialism in destroying our homeland, expelling its people, and sustaining the systems and ideologies of oppression, apartheid and occupation. It leaves one squarely outside true solidarity with Palestine and its people.

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/palestinian-writers-activists-disavow-racism-anti-semitism-gilad-atzmon

[shira]

12. Here's Bekkah Wolf explaining why this is important, even if u don't think it is....

This moment is a challenge to the Palestine solidarity movement and for us to define the movement we want to be, and the rhetoric and ideas we are willing to embrace.

What she, and this group, represents is dangerous to our movement in solidarity with Palestinians: a complete disregard for the basic principles of anti-racism and anti-bigotry most of us hold dear.

Several people, particularly Palestinians in Palestine, have criticized the amount of attention Greta and her tweet have gotten. Some have criticized her for making this about her and drawing attention away from the people who are actually suffering. Others have criticized those in the movement who have tried to hold Greta accountable. What people seem to be missing, however, are two key reasons why we cannot tolerate this rhetoric in our movement.

First, as a movement based on universal principles of human rights, freedom, and dignity, we should not allow any bigotry, racism, Islamophobia or anti-Semitism in our midst. This was a point eloquently made in recent days in a statement signed by more than 100 Palestinian activists, academics and cultural workers.

Secondly, there are some utilitarian reasons why we should avoid this kind of rhetoric. Every time a Palestine solidarity activist takes on the issue of Holocaust and its connections to Zionism, every time they conflate Judaism with Zionism, they are making an inherently Zionist argument. The horrific historical reality of the Holocaust does not, and never can, trivialize or justify the dispossession and suffering of the Palestinian people. But Greta and others, by insisting on making such topics a primary concern are tacitly conceding a key Zionist claim that the legitimacy of Zionism and its past and present deeds in Palestine stems from the Holocaust.

As an anti-Zionist Jew who has been active in Palestine for 10 years, Greta Berlin’s statements and the content of “Our Land” not only offend me, but they have damaged my ability to combat Zionist rhetoric by claiming that I cannot be both religiously Jewish and anti-Zionist. Zionists routinely argue that to be Jewish is to be Zionist and the kind of rhetoric displayed on “Our Land” concedes this important point and supports this fundamental Zionist claim. In addition, this episode regarding Berlin’s tweet has damaged our movement as a whole and has shown deep short-sightedness by opening us up to attack and dismissal by Zionists who are desperately trying to paint us as a movement as anti-Semitic. Palestinians have not asked the solidarity movement to concern itself with notions of Jewish identity, authenticity, and the Holocaust, but to offer active and effective solidarity in restoring their rights in their country.

I am hopeful, however, because of the principled stances prominent members of our movement took against this offensive and misguided rhetoric. In my experience, a majority of Palestine solidarity activists are genuinely anti-Zionist and desire to combat a modern-day political movement, not an ancient religion or group of people. To paraphrase what a fantastic Palestinian activist once said, there were Jews in Palestine long before Zionism, and there will be Jews there long after Zionism as well.

http://mondoweiss.net/2012/10/if-only-it-was-just-one-tweet-one-activists-experience-in-the-our-land-facebook-group.html

[Violet_Crumble]

15. Yep. It's been like that for at least two years...

Last edited Mon Nov 25, 2013, 08:28 PM - Edit history (1)

The only person that mentions them is that one, and the way they carry on you'd think those two fringe people actually personify what everyone who supports Palestinian self-determination thinks. It's pretty clear she trots them out whenever she wants to divert attention away from whatever the topic of a thread is, and that's usually when a thread's about a) Palestinians being killed by the IDF, b) someone on the payroll of the Israeli govt is advocating killing Arabs or making bigoted and hateful comments that would be treated as incitement in countries like mine, or c) any thread that has an OP that's got even the slightest criticism of Israel

on edit: See below post #20 for an example of trying to derail a thread and talk about anything but the subject of the OP

[shira]

20. Those 2 vulgar people are both revered by the ISM....

There's something really wrong (and hypocritical) about people who support a bigoted organization like the ISM and who cry racism and bigotry at others.

Agree?

[shaayecanaan]

29. Im still trying to figure out...

how Netanyahu doesnt speak on behalf of the Israeli government but Gilad Atzmon speaks on behalf of the Palestinians.

I'm trying to process it but its making my head hurt. Something to do with democracy or some shit. Can anyone walk me through it?

[Violet_Crumble]

30. I'll give it a go...

And, yes. It makes my head spin to run through the convoluted 'logic', but here goes. You owe me a Panadol!

To being, take the default position that the Palestinians are a Culture Of Hate™, fascists and that Israel is a beacon of all that is to be aspired to when it comes to Western democracies, a place of awesome tolerance, where even the right-wing parties like Likud and The Jewish Home are liberal compared to (insert something to point at here).

Then clinging to that default position, insist that Netanyahu is one of those rare politicians that don't let little things like calling an extremist type who was heavily behind the incitement that led to Rabin's assassination (Nutty doesn't have clean hands there, either) 'the elite unit leading the State of Israel.' get in the way of his so very tolerant and peace loving words and actions as Prime Minister.

Do an about face right about here...

Clinging to the default position again, point and shriek about some connection somewhere between someone in the ISM and a garden variety anti-Semite. Insist that position makes not only the ISM anti-Semites, but carry it further and imply that anyone who doesn't hate the ISM with the same seething rage as you is also an anti-Semite. At this point it helps to spit out something about how Western democracy rocks, try to put the words Palestinians and Nazis in the same sentence, and tell everyone else they just don't understand the dynamics of the region like you do.

Rinse and repeat....

Hope that helped

[shaayecanaan]

31. I might need more than Panadol...

Might have to smoke a couple of cones before it all makes sense to me, I think.

[azurnoir]

35. and quite possibly it won't even then

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