Gaza flooded with sewage and conspiracy

[Jefferson23]

By Ramzy Baroud

The latest punishment of Gaza may seem like another familiar plot to humiliate the strip to the satisfaction of Israel, Mahmoud Abbas's Palestinian Authority, and the military-controlled Egyptian government. But something far more sinister is brewing.

This time, the collective punishment of Gaza arrives in the form of raw sewage that is flooding many neighborhoods across the impoverished and energy-choked region of 360 square kilometers and 1.8 million inhabitants.

Even before the latest crisis resulting from a severe shortage of electricity and diesel fuel that is usually smuggled through Egypt, Gaza was rendered gradually uninhabitable. A comprehensive United Nations report last year said that if no urgent action were taken, Gaza would be "unlivable" by 2020. Since the report was issued in August 2012, the situation has grown much worse.

snip* "But Israel's reciprocal promise to help revive Gaza's economy has not been kept," it reported. Israel has done everything it its power to keep Gaza in crisis mode, from denying the strip solar panels so that they may generate their own electricity to blocking Gaza's exports. "In the meantime, Gaza is rotting away."

in full: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MID-01-271113.html

[King_David]

1. Of course Israel is to blame that

There's all of a sudden "a severe shortage of electricity and diesel fuel that is usually smuggled through Egypt"

The Jewish state was also to blame for global warming and animal species extinction .

[Jefferson23]

2. Post what you believe the Israeli government is responsible for within the I/P conflict.

I can post documentation from B'Tselem on the sewage and electricity issues, if you like,
that supports the OP.

[King_David]

3. Lots of claims are made about what Israel and it's people are responsible for ,

"PA minister: Israel poisoned Arafat the same way Jews poisoned Prophet Mohammed"

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/PA-minister-Israel-poisoned-Arafat-the-same-way-Jews-poisoned-Prophet-Mohammed-331636

[Jefferson23]

4. That's what I thought, you have nothing applicable to counter the OP, just smoke and mirrors.

Enjoy your day.

[King_David]

5. When you can't counter an argument that beat yours up,

A person could always call it " smoke and mirrors."

[Jefferson23]

6. I know, and you rely on smoke and mirrors habitually in this group.

Evident in your responses to the OP.

[King_David]

7. Ah ,ok so translation :

"You keep countering my arguments effectively " some people like calling that "smoke and mirrors ".

[Jefferson23]

9. Several posts later, you still have nothing to counter the OP...that much is clear.

You have made no arguments, period.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

57. Dave is not interested in doing anything that promotes the OP.

He is leading you away from it. That's all that they have these days.

[King_David]

59. Coming from you

I wear it with a badge of honor .

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

60. And yet, several posts later, you still have nothing to counter the OP...that much is clear.

Wear that one, dave.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

63. And the tapdance goes on and on: wearing a hole in the floor.

There's also the whitewash when the Nakba is brought up: conflating what zionists had done in the Nakba and what other countries in the M.E. were doing to Jews at the time. Two wrongs not being right or just.

[King_David]

62. Sigh

You see my responses are to posts like the one I'm replying to. They aren't part of any serious discussion . As usual they are just amateur ( your fave word) and in no way interested in any kind of meaningful exchange .

Your use of emoticon here says it all .

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

64. And yet once again, several posts later, you still have nothing to counter the OP.

You can keep on dancing, but your card is full.

[King_David]

67. I would reply to you using your own words, which would be a good reply to this post,

But I would never talk to fellow DU members the way you do....


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=52402

[Scootaloo]

8. David, let's try thinking, shall we?

This is the portion you quote, yes?

"a severe shortage of electricity and diesel fuel that is usually smuggled through Egypt"

That is indeed an important statement. And yes, Egypt has been cracking down on smuggling. But you're missing something Dave.

Why does Gaza depend on smuggling for diesel fuel?

[oberliner]

10. "Why does Gaza depend on smuggling for diesel fuel?"

Because Hamas refuses to get its diesel fuel from Israel.

Hamas has refused to import Israeli diesel because of taxes imposed by the Palestinian Authority.

[Scootaloo]

13. Interesting. Got a source I could peruse?

[oberliner]

14. Apologies - should've cited the source (NY Times)

Hamas has refused to import Israeli diesel because of taxes imposed by the Palestinian Authority.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/21/world/middleeast/raw-sewage-and-anger-floods-gazas-streets-as-electricity-runs-low.html?_r=0

[Scootaloo]

19. As Purveyor points out, those taxes double the cost of the fuel

And Gaza was already hard-pressed to scrape up the funds before these taxes were levied.

Moussa Abu Marzouk, deputy head of Hamas’s political bureau, accused the Palestinian Authority of raising the price of Israeli diesel from NIS 4.26 ($1.2) per liter to NIS 7.75 ($2.19), making Gaza’s energy bill unaffordable to the Hamas government.

“The [Palestinian] Authority in Ramallah has gone back on its promise to not increase the tax. This has rendered the energy authority in Gaza unable to pay the taxes, as it can barely pay the bill without the tax,” Abu Marzouk wrote on his Facebook page

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-official-blasts-ramallah-over-gaza-blackout/

I think it's less a case of "refuses to" and more like "can't."

[Igel]

22. But the conversation drifted, didn't it.

From "It's Israel's fault" to "Gaza can't afford the PA-imposed tax."

Do we assume that the original assertion, that the diesel shortage is Israel's fault, is withdrawn as unfounded?

The only thing that remains is the outrage.

[Scootaloo]

23. Do bear in mind that Israel and the PA are partners in this

I had thought that diesel was on the embargo list, but apparently not - I stand corrected on that. However, the Palestinian Authority isn't wizarding diesel out of thin air. It buys it from Israel, then imposes the Gaza-only tax.

Do you suppose that Israel might consider direct sale instead? I mean if someone were to bring it up, which honestly isn't hugely likely from Hamas. But on the odd chance.

[oberliner]

66. That is always the way

It's way discussions here are an exercise in futility.

But hey, it's still exercise!

[Jefferson23]

15. They refuse, because it is twice the price...you forget that part, oberliner?

The impact has been swift and harsh for the people of Gaza. The plentiful supply of cheap Egyptian fuel has almost dried up; fuel from Israel is both scarce and twice the price. The fuel crisis has meant Gaza's daily power cuts now last up to eight hours. Prices of basic foodstuffs have risen, according to Owida: flour is up 9%; cooking oil 4 – 5%; and sugar 7%.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/14/gaza-chokes-israel-egypt-economic

on edit to correct link.

[King_David]

11. Because whenever Israel opens the border

Hamas usually rewards this action with some kind of attempt to massacre some civilians?

Think that's a reason ?

[Scootaloo]

18. You're answering a different question.

It's not about "opening the border," as you and I have discussed. It's about the blockade on goods and shipping.

I happen to believe Israelis can manage the border without blocking off common-use goods and shipping needed by Gaza's one point five million human beings. I also realize Israel has far more say over the operations of that border than Egypt, simply by dint of having more of said border, and having a say in how Egypt operates its border as well.

And Hamas seems to try those operations regardless of the border status anyway, so it's not even a good answer, to whatever question you're trying to respond to.

[pelsar]

20. and you BELIEVE....because you have to ignore history

this bears repeating, since clearly you don't like it:

after the withdrawal Israel have 3 border stations for importing goods to gaza. Israel imports would arrive on trucks, the goods where then inspected and transferred to gaza trucks and sent in to gaza. And when the gates were opened to let out the trucks......there were attacks on the israelis. Not to mention the occasional mortar that landed in the stations..

you can believe israel can "manage" the border, as long as you accept that murder attempts on israelis is also acceptable, and apparently you do. so you should at least admit that.


and yes israel has a longer border than egypt, but you didn't mention what exactly can't be imported on the 12km long egyptian/ gaza border?

and you didn't mention how israel controls the egyptian border...care to explain how that works (you keep forgetting to do that....)

[Scootaloo]

21. I do, huh?

you can believe israel can "manage" the border, as long as you accept that murder attempts on israelis is also acceptable, and apparently you do. so you should at least admit that.

Once again, a Zionist accuses me of supporting murder, and rather than prove this assertion, they implore me to "admit it." How odd.

So the reason Israel forbids the importation of cement is because of a mortar attack at Erez in 2011? Can you tell me why pasta had been for the years prior to that, because I can't see the connection. Was pasta involved in the 2004 karni bombing? Explosive-packed manacotti, perhaps?

[pelsar]

27. yes you do...lets start with the simple one first

you have made the assertion several times now that israel somehow controls the egyptian/gaza border.

well? perhaps you would like to explain how that works?

and after you've explained that, we'll move on to the others...

[delrem]

26. I agree to the first, not to the rhetorical second.

Only an idiot would equate to be "blamed for global warming and animal species extinction" with Israel's siege on Gaza. Only an idiot, King_David.

[King_David]

32. Agreed

What's with all these idiots ?

Israel and it's people worldwide , Bnai Yisrael are not to blame for the problems of the world ,agree 100%...

O Tayn Li Koach !!!

[delrem]

35. Can we go ahead with that agreed?

Israel is of course to blame, or to credit, for any interactions it does have.

I figure about the same w.r.t. Iran.

This has *nothing* to do with the Iranians and Jews including Israeli Jews living in my district. We all get along well.

[King_David]

38. I bet 96% of Jews living in your district

Would abhor your views as expressed on this message board and so would Thomas Mulclair. ( a very good man and friend of Israel and the Jews of Quebec and Canada )


Viva Le Quebec libre ! ..by the way...

[delrem]

40. well..... that's your opinion, and you haven't presented yourself well.

[King_David]

41. I have absolutely no ties to Canada

But I very much support and fund a free Quebec... I fight for it and donate to the Quebec freedom party ...

I would support a more vigilant militant Quebec freedom party too...

As far as I'm concerned it's 50% +1 baby...

Vice Le Quebec Libre !

[delrem]

50. Cool.

[delrem]

51. You don't seem to understand Canada, King_David.

That is, if you think your comment above is somehow a "dig".
Is it?

Unless you mean that you're a jackass who defends the military tactics of the FLQ.

Take a closer look at Canadian politics, King_David.
Canada isn't holding Quebec under siege. Quebec throws more than its weight.
Canada is fucked up, King_David, but not *that* fucked up.

It might be better to focus on the Canadian First Nations, King_David.
The tales of abuse are endless, and, in the vast majority of cases, true. You can't make shit like that up, King_David, which is why I think it'd be better to focus on that when you divert attention from I/P.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

56. When you ride a straw dog don't expect it to go very far.

[azurnoir]

12. The raw sewage is causing disease and death among small children in Gaza

including Haniyeh's own Granddaughter, there really is no excuse for this as pointed out in the article

Gaza's only power plant has been a top priority target for Israeli warplanes for years. In 2006, it was destroyed in an Israeli airstrike, to be opened a year later, only to be destroyed again. And although it was barely at full capacity when it operated last, it continued to supply Gaza with 30% of its electricity needs of 400 megawatts. 120 megawatts came through Israel, and nearly 30 megawatts came through Egypt. The total fell short of Gaza's basic needs, but somehow Gaza subsisted. Following the ousting of Morsi and the Egyptian military crackdown, the shortage now stands at 65% of the total.

In an interview with the UN humanitarian news agency, IRIN, James W Rawley, the humanitarian coordinator for the Occupied Palestinian Territory, depicted a disturbing scene in which the impact of the crisis has reached "all essential services, including hospitals, clinics, sewage and water pumping stations."

Israelis on the other hand, have been doing just fine since the last military encounter with Hamas.

"The past year was a great one," the Economist quoted the commander of Israel's division that "watches" Gaza, Brigadier Michael Edelstein. Due to the large drop in the number of rockets fired from Gaza in retaliation to Israeli attacks and continued siege (50 rockets this year, compared with 1,500 last year), "children in Israel's border towns can sleep in their beds, not in shelters, and no longer go to school in armored buses," according to the Economist on November 16.

[oberliner]

16. In spite of the best efforts of the Israeli hospital where she was taken for treatment

When are those elections happening in Gaza again? There have been none since Hamas took over. How many years ago is it?

[azurnoir]

17. yes however the child is dead and the source was infection most likely from untreated sewage

contaminating the water supply, now you can go on about elections but that does not excuse this

I'm trying to imagine the outrage if an Israeli child died and the reactions was oh when will Bibi be replaced they elected him right as if a child dying from these conditions is somehow okay or just collateral

[Scootaloo]

24. A few things, Oberliner...

No one's trashing the doctors. Men and women don't join the profession unless they want to help people - Or, at least, they don't last long if that's not the case. Of course they did what they could.

Using that to praise the state of Israel is duplicitous, however. Remember back in 2004, after the eradication of Iraq, when the republicans demanded that we give the Bush administration praise for building two schools? Never mind that the same administration had just leveled the entire nation, look, two schools, you must hate America if you don't praise that.

Yeah, I'm glad the schools were built. And I'm glad that these doctors did their doctoring. But I'd be even gladder if the US had not flattened Iraq in the first place, and I'd be gladder if Israel were not keeping Gazans living in rubble and sewage in the first place.

I suppose that when you're a Zionist, as you and those Republicans are, you see Arabs as little more than objects to be acted upon. The story isn't that water is contaminated with sewage because Israel bombed the treatment plant and refuses to allow repair and treatment materials to cross the border. No, the story is nice Israeli doctors who will treat the victims of disease this causes. For that matter, the story isn't about how there are doctors in Gaza who could, who want to treat these people, but can't because of the same blockade.

Second, I remember that Hamas won the last legislative elections. I remember this because some of your friends continue to bring it up as evidence that Arabs are animals who only understand violence, and use it as justification for their belief that Arabs need to be brutalized like this. Further, I recall that Israel and Fatah worked together to conduct mass arrests of these legislators. And then of course, there was that whole "violent coup attempt" by Fatah that failed in Gaza, rather nastily. And of course this is the genesis of the mass reprisal against the one point five million people in the Gaza strip by Israel.

I bring all this up because I'm curious about how, exactly, you expect Hamas to call elections. I mean on the one hand, it doesn't have any ministers in the parliament to try this, they're mostly in jail (a few are targeted with missile strikes, which does no good, either.) Even barring that, wouldn't the Palestinian Authority need to sign on to the notion as well? And wouldn't there need to be some guarantee that an imnical foreign power would not interfere with violence if the result it desires is not obtained?

[oberliner]

76. Reasonable points

I do think, though, that you read things that aren't there. For example, I didn't praise the State of Israel. Only in your mind did that happen. Read the text of my post again if you don't believe it. It may be illuminating to you. I know something that happens to me as well - where I see something in a post that isn't there - so this isn't meant as a dig at all, but perhaps a chance for an "aha" moment.

Also if you think Hamas can't call elections, are you prepared to just accept the fact that Hamas will be ruling Gaza indefinitely? Don't you think there ought to be some mechanism for the people living there to determine whether or not they are comfortable with their leadership? One would think there would be a way for the will of the Palestinian people living in Gaza to express itself, short of an Arab spring type event as we have seen elsewhere in the region.

Some of the other stuff you wrote is just ridiculous and surprising to hear from someone who is otherwise so reasonable (i.e. "I suppose that when you're a Zionist...you see Arabs as little more than objects to be acted upon&quot . That you can think something like this in spite of all the various discussions we've had on this board is incomprehensible to me.

[pelsar]

28. what kind of universe do you live in?

even the term 'Palestine' is taboo

their social, political, economic and physical infrastructure has been repeatedly targeted for destruction.... but continuously, so there is *nothing left

in a pattern that won't stop until they are completely annihilated.

whew!...we finally got to genoicde.....

anybody here want to confirm the belief that we wont stop until we annihilate the "P" (we can't even say the word, its taboo)

[delrem]

29. I was addressing oberliner.

I won't address you until you recognize that Israel is a Jewish State granting the right of aliyah to a country, a land, which has a Jewish majority.

Until that time, I don't consider you at all credible in any way.

[pelsar]

30. you've got to be kidding?

your actually "threatening me" that you wont respond unless I agree with you? OMG!!!!

I shall explain this very simply: you have no influence over my actions what so ever, nothing, zilch, nada. You are a cyber space "person" that is not real in any "real" sense. You are a data flowing and clearly you have confused a cyberspace forum with real life...

you don't have to respond, you don't have to believe i have any credibility, you can believe i live on the moon and have super fast internet.....you can and should believe anything you want to, but the concept that i would alter any of my beliefs so that i might get a response from you is laughable at best

god have you got to get out more....

[delrem]

31. I was addressing oberliner. Not you. expletive deleted.

[pelsar]

34. yes i know....the concept is free speech

its a wonderful thing, you can respond to anybody you like and i, in turn, if i'm a interested may put in "my 2 cents"

its a really cool idea, free speech......and you in turn don't have to respond or anything, you can ignore me, "yell at me" call me names (well that gets your posts deleted)....

but i will respond to any post i feel like it, and those who believe in freedom of speech now doubt will defend that very idea.

[delrem]

37. OK - you can consider it done, pelsar.

[pelsar]

43. this is pretty pathetic or sad.....

an internet poster who believes that us Israelis are involved in genocide (i assume that means my family, being active in the IDF, are personally involved), has declared that I am not credible and threatened to "not respond to me" if I don't agree with certain beliefs.

wow, being "threatened" on an internet forum..... i can decide if that is one of the most stuipedist ideas and concept that I have ever heard, or if its one of the saddest.

believing that "threatening" a poster with a "non response" on an internet forum could influence someone, is one of the saddest commentaries on modern society that i can think of. Confusing cyberspace with real physical life is not good, it means those people are living in an illusionary world.

I'm sure there are many commentaries on this type of phenomenon and i'm sure its more and more prevalent with the younger generation. Infact i shall tell a short story:

a few years ago, back when i was doing reserve service, we had the base commander (this was a training base for tanks) tell us about the differences between the new recruits and the older ones (my generation). He mentioned that they needed an extra week to understand the difference of real consequences for their actions, their failures and success, vs their previous experiences that were mostly cyber space oriented and always without any real consequence.

For example, they never knew that, when attempting to fix a tank tread that if they missed swinging the 5 kilo hammer, they might actually break a leg and that there is no "undo" for it.....

[King_David]

33. LOL

Ha ha..

[King_David]

36. Agree 100%

Exactly correct..

A refuge to Jews under persecution.

[delrem]

39. Do you understand how that contradicts your "LOL" to pelsar, just now?

pelsar is busy *denying* that such a refuge to Jews under persecution exists.

[pelsar]

44. actually i don't....

nor have i ever.....you have made a few assumptions that are wrong, you should try asking

cyber threatening as per you attempt to get a response from me, it one of the most pathetic things i have ever read.

[delrem]

45. So pelsar=K_D is now on record. Thank you for clearing that up.

[pelsar]

46. if your going to threaten...

at least have the gumption to go through with it....my god, you can't even follow through on your own threat?

[delrem]

47. ouch! you're telling me to drop a nuke on you! to be consistent with your imagination! nt

[pelsar]

48. i'm telling you to have to gumption to follow though on your threat...

I won't address you until you recognize that Israel is a Jewish State granting the right of aliyah to a country, a land, which has a Jewish majority.

well...since I don't take well to threats and since i believe you should learn that there are consequences (though these are just cyber consequences, clearly its important to you)..i will not do as you demanded.

so, your credibility is now "on line".. you should now stop responding to my posts.

come on, show a mimimm of credibility here...its taken you about 10 seconds to "wimp out"

[oberliner]

74. There should be elections

They are overdue.

Perhaps the current Hamas leadership in Gaza does not reflect the desires and will of the people. The only way to find out is to have a vote. There has not been an election since Hamas took over more than six years ago.

[delrem]

42. Are you really going to let *pelsar* speak for you?

How can you explain King_David's interjection?

You present yourself as a voice of reason and I can respect that, but not when a rat-pack tag-team stands in.

[shira]

53. No one can reasonably respond to u when u believe Israel is annihilating the Palestinians....

When you believe Israel is about to go all genocidal on the Palestinians, there's no genuine discussion to be had. You're living in a fantasy land.

But to help you out, it's not that there's no way that'll ever happen. It won't. It's that even when Israel goes to war, as it has in the past 30 years, the Israeli people don't have the stomach to do what Western and NATO nations have done in war during the same time period. Israel is by far more careful with the civilian lives of its enemies than any other nation on the planet. I know this creates a dilemna for you, but it's reality. The Israeli people would never stand for anything that remotely resembles genocide.

You may as well be arguing creationism or 911 conspiracies.

And BTW, when people argue Israel is about to annihilate the Palestinian people (or Iranians) that's incitement and blood libel. You'd never do that WRT to any other nation for fear of being labeled a bigot.

[shira]

55. You get off on accusing Israelis of being racist, genocidal nazis....

...but you go apeshit when others attempt to criticize Palestinian extremism.

I find the mentality fascinating.

[King_David]

68. Nasty,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=52443

[King_David]

71. "or if even the term 'Palestine' is taboo"

"Taboo" to whom ?

[King_David]

72. ", in a pattern that won't stop until they are completely annihilated. "

I'm not sure at all that you have a grasp on IP affairs --- at all..

When you actually believe the Jewish State is commuting Genocide ---no wonder Oberliner hasn't answered you...

Who on earth could take u seriously ?

[King_David]

77. I think your not quite up with what's going on with IP

Send me a private message and I'll recommend some reading for you..

It's not a very easy topic to grasp..

[King_David]

79. I was being helpful, you obviously know nothing about Israel or

Us Jews and I was offering to help.

Once I knew nothing about Quebec ... Did some reading .. Lots if reading .. And decided the québécois have been done wrong by the ROC ... And now support a free Quebec ...FLQ too...

Viva la Quebec libre

[King_David]

84. "who lies right to my face"

You do realize this is an Internet forum in cyberspace?
I have never seen your face...
You do know we not out in real life here?

[oberliner]

75. Responded above

Is there even talk of a forthcoming election in Gaza? There was at one point. Seven years is too long, isn't it?

[Shaktimaan]

86. really? I thought the whole idea of good, independent government...

was built around the cornerstone of the rule of laws, not people. The US fought in two world wars and never missed an election. I was in new york after 9/11. Elections for mayor proceeded normally.

Here's the sad fact. If the Palestinians can't manage to form a democratic government then they'll always have an excuse handy... they have plenty of problems. But ultimately it is up to them to build their own state, or fail at it. Right now they are failing, and miserably at that! But in the end it's the Palestinians that will suffer. No one can create a country for someone else.

I don't think it's possible to hold a fair democratic election in these circumstances.

Well, I agree that it's not possible for the Palestinians to do it. America on the other hand, America would just do it. Israel? Sure. Basically most democratic nations would be able to do it pretty easily under the same conditions. I mean, aside from not wanting to, what exactly do you suppose is stopping them? It's an election, not rocket surgery.

I'm not assigning blame here or saying why they can't do it. It doesn't matter. But at this point I'm convinced... not gonna happen. They don't want it. Did you see that rad tunnel they built out of Gaza? No way you're telling me that they could make such an awesome tunnel, but they're unable to get a shoebox and collect slips of paper from everyone. What, has Israel outlawed shoeboxes or something?

[azurnoir]

82. yes above you responded to the death of a child with "when will there be elections"

as if Hamas rule makes children dying unnecessarily from contaminated water due to the destruction of civilian infrastructure somehow justifiable, now you double down on that - thank you

[azurnoir]

85. or more simply

distracted from and made to seem justifiable

[Jefferson23]

52. UN begins distributing fuel to counter Gaza crisis

GAZA CITY (AFP) -- The United Nations on Thursday began distributing fuel in Gaza to keep critical infrastructure running as fears of a health crisis grow over accumulating rubbish and sewage, a UN official said.

"Fuel is actually coming in, as of today, through the Kerem Shalom (goods crossing with Israel), purchased by UNRWA and distributed by the UN," the organization's Middle East special coordinator Robert Serry told a news conference in northern Gaza.

"That doesn't resolve the fuel crisis in Gaza, but it does provide a safety net, we hope, for the coming two to three months for those critical installations here," he added.

Serry's announcement came as the Islamist Hamas-run Palestinian territory suffers the most serious fuel crisis in its history, with daily power outages of up to 16 hours.

Hospitals, water and sanitation plants, businesses and private homes are all being hit.

The minister responsible for the Middle East at Britain's Foreign Office said that a year after a truce ended fighting between Israel and Hamas, conditions in Gaza had only worsened.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=652362