As long as extremists on both sides have an "ALL-OR-NOTHING" attitude we will see no peace.

[dballance]

From the very limited view I see on social media, the news, and web I want to desperately believe that the vast majority of both Israelis and Palestinians do not wish to be continually at war.

I believe that if anyone objectively looks into it the vast majority of the Palestinian people are not shooting rockets at Israel and don't want to. It is some political extremists in Hamas firing rockets. I believe that the vast majority of Palestinians would love to just have a stable country where they can own businesses, import and export, travel freely, have clean water and electricity. Unfortunately, the extremists who used to do the frequent terrorism by crossing out of Gaza and the West Bank and committing terrorism like suicide bombings, bus bombings, car bombings, etc. ruined it for all the Palestinians. I'm not saying those people had no valid grievances. I'm pretty sure they did/do. I take umbrage with the manner in which they dealt with these grievances.

Just like I'd be willing to be the vast majority of Israeli's would be more than happy for all this to be over as well. There are certainly extremists in Israel, the Likud, who I think, will not rest until they push the Palestinians into the seas or into other Arab nations. Of course, during the establishment of Israel there was no shortage of terrorists acts by the Israelis in defense of their cause. Menachem Begin was, infamously, one who committed what could be called terrorist acts in the name of Zionism and establishment of the Jewish state.

On Edit:
As with most conflicts there is no clear right vs. wrong/good vs. evil here. (The Nazis are an exception to that for certain when it comes to conflicts). There are varying opinions and political ideologies at play. Until BOTH sides agree to compromise on points they hold as inviolable then we'll get no where.

Note: I really tried to walk the fine line here and be fair. If I have offended anyone please educate me in a manner that will make me less ignorant in the future. Please don't just pillory me for being wrong or naive or too simplistic. Educate me. Please.

[randys1]

1. In other words are most willing to share to have peace?

I would hope so, and if that is the case then it is almost as if there is a monetary payoff for the two extremes here...

What other reason do people do what they do?

Religion, oh yeah, phucking religion makes this much tougher, doesnt it.

Too bad it really isnt only about money like it is for most American rightwingers...

[dballance]

2. Yes, I think you are correct. Most are willing to share and co-exist to have peace.

You are also right that it's too bad it's not all about money like it is with the US GOP. The religious aspects do complicate things greatly.

Here in the US all we really have to do is make peace more profitable than war then wars will end. Of course, empire and stealing other peoples' resources still does require quite a large defense force.

[shira]

15. See #14 below. n/t

[elleng]

3. You did well, I think, dballance.

I would emphasize the misery to the Palestinians caused at and subsequent to the establishment of Israel, and the fact that so many now appear to ignore it.

I shared an office with an Israeli-born American, 20+ years ago, who was CERTAIN that the Palestinians left their homes willingly so that my friend's family could move into it. I met one of that generation of Palestinians Monday, at Starbucks, and I apologized to him, for what 'we,' 'my' people, and the west, did to him and his family. They did NOT leave willingly, and the harm to them continues to be felt.

[King_David]

4. Your a spokesman for your people?

Who are "your" people?

[elleng]

5. I speak for myself.

My family and I are Jewish, and to the extent that I am a Member of the Tribe, not a king, queen, prince or princess, I speak.

[Jefferson23]

7. +1

[shaayecanaan]

6. You're trying too hard...

just relax. You don't have to come up with a nice, safe, mainstream liberal position on everything. Its more or less impossible anyway.

If I were a Jewish Israeli, I would want to kill the Gazans I suppose. It would be annoying having to run for shelter all the time and it would take serious time out of my day.

On the other hand, if I were a Palestinian, I'd want to kill the Israelis even more. They came and took my father's land, and then even occupied the tiny rump of territory that we'd managed to keep for themselves. Even today, they assert some entitlement to the 19% of historical Palestine not yet annexed by Israel, as though having the other 81% was not already enough for them. All the killing doesn't help either, but it is not the main problem. The problem is that the Palestinians were a peasant society, and they lost their land.

It is easy for you and I to be pious liberals because our forefathers did all the dirty work before us. They killed all the Indians, raped all their women and took all their land, making it possible for people like you or I to live a nice lifestyle without even the lingering sensation that we are doing so essentially at the expense of those poor red bastards who got the knife all those years ago. But even still, if the ghost of that poor red bastard were to knock on your door and ask for his land back, you're not going to give it to him, are you?

Machiavelli said that men should either be treated generously or destroyed. The problem is that the Palestinians have not been treated generously or destroyed, and are reacting accordingly.

Now, it is possible that Israel may elect to treat them generously, but I doubt it. The political wind seems to be drifting the other way. They will probably destroy them, I think, at some point, although that is subject to global warming or some other calamity not finishing off all the rest of us first.

I can hardly begrudge them that, in a way, as every other nation was founded on the death and destruction of its previous inhabitants, so why not Israel?

I suppose the lingering annoyance that I have is that a large number of Jewish Israelis seem to consider themselves categorically more moral than everyone else (all that "light unto the nations" crap), and that somehow the establishment of Israel was not as bad as South Africa, or Canada/Australia/the US. Einstein pourned scorn on the notion:-

And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them.

It is probably the Palestinians now that are protected from the worst outrages by having a lack of power. You cannot, however, make the mistake of believing the weak to be more moral than the strong, or by thinking that things would improve if the strong decided to be nicer to the weak. "Moral agency" arguments are complete bullshit when applied to such huge groups of people, inevitably the law of averages dictates that there are equal numbers of arseholes in both groups.

It is the same when people on this forum imply that the poor are more moral than the rich, or that Black people are more moral that white. The Apache chief Geronimo used to toss white babies up in the air before impaling them on his knife. About 2000 white Arikaner farmers have been murdered by Black nationalists since the end of apartheid. You can't expect the weak to behave more nobly than the strong, they'll always disappoint you.

The best thing that you can hope for is that the weak eventually become strong enough that the strong think twice before kicking the shit out of them. You never know, it might happen.

[Shaktimaan]

8. +1

[Jefferson23]

9. Honest. n/t

[dballance]

11. Thanks for the reply.

You presented some great points and that was exactly what I was after. To encourage intelligent discussion rather than "passionate" arguments from either side

Thank you. You are part of why DU is a great place.

[shaayecanaan]

13. No problem, take it or leave it

One more thing: disregard any argument that this particular dispute defies characterisation because it is "complex". In fact it is relatively simple: there are two groups wanting the same patch of land. The reason why people fall back on the old shibboleth that this conflict is "complex" is because liberals feel more squeamish about this dispute due to the issues of Jews and anti-semitism, and don't feel as comfortable viewing this dispute in their usually way, as a simple black-white dichotomy (eg Serbia/Bosnia, South Africa, even the Falklands Islands dispute). If the Palestinians had been colonised by WASPs instead of Jews then I don't think that there would be the same hesitation and hedging.

In reality, all conflicts are complex to some degree. The two bloodiest conflicts in South African history were the difaqane (a black on black war of Zulu against Xhosa) and the boer war (white British vs white Dutch), far more blood was shed in these wars than in the struggle against apartheid. The african national congress had its own armed terrorist wing, and nelson Mandela refused to disband them until apartheid was abolished. The ANC murdered collaborators, in fact their instrument of choice was putting a tyre full of gasoline around someone's head and setting it alight. Mandela's own wife participated in at least one such murder.

You can say the same for the the Irish republicans, the native Americans, the Vietnamese. The Palestinians have done nothing that has not been done many times before by other indigenous groups trying to preserve themselves.

[shira]

14. You're forgetting Hamas/PLO plans to rid all Palestine of Jews…..

…or to kill them all. Not only do their founding charters state this, it's prominent in their state-controlled media all the time. Repeated daily in schools, government institutions, etc. Non-stop for decades. It's not about 1967, but rather 1948. It always has been.

That was not a feature in the other conflicts you mentioned. In those conflicts, people wanted their own land in peace alongside or shared with their perceived enemies. In I/P that is not the case at all.

[shaayecanaan]

16. How's the job hunting going? Nt

[shira]

21. Why? n/t

[LeftishBrit]

25. One point here...

I entirely agree that some Israeli Jews (just like some Brits and Americans, no doubt some Palestinians, etc) have an excessive romantic attitude to their own nation, and think it's uniquely moral. I also agree that the establishment of Israel is not in itself more moral than the establishment of 'South Africa, or Canada/Australia/the US' (and one can add the UK, New Zealand, India, Pakistan, etc. etc.)

But there is an attitude among some critics of Israel that is a mirror-image of that: that Israel is WORSE, and its creation more IMMORAL, than anywhere else on the planet; and that is definitely not true either.

[geek tragedy]

10. I disagree with that. Extremists will always have an all-or-nothing attitude.

Otherwise they wouldn't be extremsts.

The real question is to what extent the extremists control each side.

If the extremists are marginalized, then their attitude doesn't matter so much.

[dballance]

12. I see your point. I cannot dispute it.

You are absolutely correct. Extremists will always be extremists to the point of the "all-or-nothing" attitude. That is why they are extremists and so disruptive to society - IMHO.

The question is: How do we people who are NOT extremists push them out of the way so that rational discourse can begin?

[shira]

17. Extremist views are unfortunately mainstream within Palestinian society

It's pretty much forbidden to protest against the extreme voices, and people who do pay the price for it. What else can be expected in an authoritarian society?

It's not mainstream within Israel, however, as extreme voices are constantly challenged and marginalized.

======

If you want to believe in some fake balance, that both sides are equally guilty, both have their extremists, both are….. you'll always find people who will accommodate that view.

[dballance]

18. To your point. Aren't extremist views also mainstream within Israeli Politics?

I'm pretty sure the Likud has some rather extreme views of how Israel should occupy all the lands that the "God" of the Torah told them is theirs. To the exclusion of any other people. To the eventuality of wiping out peoples who have been there for many generations.

What say you to that? A several-thousand year old proclamation from a supposed deity. Rather than reality of human lives that are suffering each and every day. Today, here and now.

[shira]

19. They definitely exist but aren't mainstream. Israel's very liberal overall….

Their media is very critical of such extreme views.

[dballance]

20. I totally agree. Israel is very liberal overall

I agree with you. I believe the mainstream Israelis are far more liberal and accommodating than their government of B. Netanyahu.

[shaayecanaan]

22. then why do they keep voting for him?

Don't get me wrong, I like your ideals, but you need to make them fit with reality.

Israel was one of only three countries to prefer McCain to Obama in 2008:-

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3613689,00.html

About 6% of Israelis identify as left wing, which is pretty low.

The ceasefire proposal is highly unpopular with Israelis, who would prefer to see the war continue:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28437986

For what its worth, the Palestinians preferred Obama by a 3 to 1 margin, but I'm not arguing that the Palestinians are liberals, because that's obviously bullshit.

[dballance]

23. Good question.

I guess the same sort of thing applies to all the people in the USA South that continue to vote for Republicans who have clearly stated they'll gut every program that helps those same poor people who vote for them.

I wish I could explain why people vote against their own best interests. I cannot. It is quite a dilemma and if we could turn those people to voting in their own best interests we'd be a lot better off in this nation.

[LeftishBrit]

24. I agree...

Unfortunately, in most conflicts:

(a) the extremists tend to call the tune, because they are much more active and aggressive than the rest

(b) extreme action on one side tends to lead to fear, and therefore greater support for extreme action, on the other side. In practice if not in intention, the Israeli Right have done more than anyone to build up support for Hamas, and Hamas have done more than anyone to build up support for the Israeli Right.

There are organizations which are encouraging collaboration and co-operation between Israelis and Palestinians. In particular, the One Voice Movement is a collaboration between moderate Israelis and moderate Palestinians, in favour of a two-state solution and an end to the conflict.

www.onevoicemovement.org

Also see the various organizations under the umbrella of the Alliance for Middle Eastern Peace

www.allmep.org

Also there is the Oasis of Peace village and school, where Jews and Palestinians live and work and study together, and which can always benefit from international financial support. I am involved in the British Friends of this organization; here is a link to the American Friends:

www.oasisofpeace.org