Hamas as seen by an American progressive Zionist state senator

[King_David]

As a progressive (or “liberal” as I grew up calling myself), I’ve been troubled by the divide I’ve seen in the US progressive community over the Israeli-Hamas conflict. While there are many good progressives on the national scene who, as I do, enthusiastically support Israel, I have also seen the unmistakable strain of anti-Israeli sentiment on the part of progressives I know, read, or interact with on social media. Much of what I’ve heard from these people with whom I normally share so much is profoundly troubling, and antithetical to everything progressivism is supposed to be about.

First, when I say I am a progressive, let me tell you what I mean: the legislation in Pennsylvania legalizing same-sex marriage, raising the minimum wage to $12 per hour, mandating paid family leave, abolishing the death penalty, legalizing marijuana and taxing the use of plastic bags are not only bills I support, they are bills I’ve introduced. A number of commentators have nicknamed me “The Liberal Lion of Pennsylvania,” a moniker I proudly embraced during my recent congressional campaign.

My views on foreign policy are similarly, if not quite as aggressively, progressive. I opposed the wars in Vietnam, Iraq, Panama and Grenada. However, I am not a pacifist; I supported going into Afghanistan to prevent those who attacked us on 9/11 from planning their next strike. Generally, I support more foreign aid to help alleviate poverty and a greater emphasis on human rights in our dealings with other nations.

To me, this general worldview can lead to only one logical conclusion, which is the strong support of Israel in its current conflict with Hamas. There is one country in the Middle East that respects women’s rights, gay rights, the rights of political minorities, free speech and the right of dissent, and that is Israel. There is no other nation in the region that could, in any sense of the word, be considered progressive.

Hamas has a human rights record that can only be described as awful. Being gay is a crime punishable by death and women are subjected to strict dress codes, and are often the victims of “honor killings” while the Hamas government looks the other way. Religious minorities living in Gaza are subjected to almost daily governmental harassment, and one need only watch the news to see reports of extra-judicial killings of anyone even suspected of opposing Hamas’s war on Israel.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Hamas-as-seen-by-an-American-progressive-Zionist-state-senator-372714

[King_David]

2. Well you have your opinion

I would vote for this guy if he were in my district , but just about every Democratic Party candidate has the same views.

You should organize a Democratic Party candidate whose views you agree with, then get a bunch of people to vote in the primaries who agree with you too ( assuming you can find that many) and vote them into office .

Instead of voting for President Carter in every election , because he's not standing . LOL

[sabbat hunter]

4. That vote would be thrown out

In presidential elections you don't vote for the person, you vote for electors for that person. But if there are no electors supporting that person (ie a write in vote for Jimmy Carter) it is not even counted.

[King_David]

5. Exactly , it's a spoiled ballot

And the machine or person won't even see or read or care what you have written in , it would just be trashed.

[wellst0nev0ter]

3. So What Does He Think About The Settlements?

Indefensible.

[Scootaloo]

6. If you "enthusaistically support Israel" while it slaughters civilians, you are no progressive

[King_David]

7. He should apply to get credentialled by Scootaloo ?

[Scootaloo]

8. Butchery of civilians is not a liberal value

It seems that this would be obvious.

[King_David]

10. What are you saying about the OP ?

[Scootaloo]

11. Exactly what I said in post #6

if you throw your "enthusiastic support' behind a state that massacres civilians, you are not a progressive.

This ain't rocket surgery Dave.

[King_David]

12. Well Scootaloo , can you find me any Democratic Party reps or candidates that are going to disagree

with this dude?

Maybe Kucinech but I doubt even Bernie Sanders would .

Are you going to take away all their progressive credentials?

[Scootaloo]

13. I don't know what you're struggling with, Dave

Do you hold mass murder to be a progressive virtue? or just mass murder of Arabs?

[King_David]

14. I do not really understand what your getting at there,

Seems like a 'when did you stop beating your wife'' ? type of question...

We are also smart here on DU Scootaloo tsk tsk

[Scootaloo]

15. Can't be very smart if you don't understand mass killings aren't progressive

[King_David]

16. You calling a fellow DU member that I 'Can't be very smart' ?

We can all be civil here, makes for better discussion of the issues.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=79348

[Scootaloo]

17. Well, you're very confused by a simple, inherently logical statement

"Enthusiastic support for a state engaging in mass killing of a captive civilian population is not progressive"

If you are legitimately struggling with that concept David, then what other conclusion am I to draw? Maybe you just don't understand progressivism?

[DanTex]

9. The idea is that Hamas is bad, so everything Israel does is OK.

It's the mirror image of Israel is bad so everything Hamas does is OK.

[sabbat hunter]

18. I will have to

respectfully disagree that Israel 'slaughtered' civilians.

[Scootaloo]

19. You can be as wrong as you want. Free will and all.

[sabbat hunter]

20. and you can

be as wrong as you want about Israel slaughtering civilians.

[Scootaloo]

21. I could be, but I'm not. You notice all the dead civilians killed by Israel, right?

Couple thousand more maimed? Over a million tormented?

That's something you really want to throw your enthusiastic support behind, huh?

[sabbat hunter]

22. slaughtering would

mean that israel intended to kill as many civilians as possible. That is simply not the case.

[Scootaloo]

24. Oh, it was completely accidental?

Funny, I would think when you enclose a few million people in a patch of land about a sixth the size of London, and then pound the territory from land and sea with no real discrimination using high-powered explosives, your intent absolutely is to kill as many people, to wreak as much carnage as you can. I mean that's the outcome one certainly expects from raining missiles and mortars upon densely-packed civilian populations, including schools, hospitals, apartments, power plants, water treatment plants, and the like. it's not like some magical tent-god is going to guide all those blasts so only the "bad guys" get hurt, 'cause, y'know, laws of fucking physics and all that.

Rather than be upset by such atrocity, you rally to support and defend it. Like I said, if that's what you want to do, you can do it, but it sure as fuck doesn't make you any sort of progressive. Rather the opposite really. Rather the extreme opposite.

[King_David]

25. are you going to call him "not smart " as well now?

[Scootaloo]

26. He's not expressing deep confusion with basic logic...

...yet.

[King_David]

27. Personal attacks should be avoided

Please.

[Scootaloo]

28. So should support for mass murder, oppression, subjugation, and violence

[King_David]

29. Not sure what your going on about,

I was talking about keeping away from personal attacks.

What were you talking about , scootaloo ?

[Scootaloo]

30. I'm talking about things that should be avoided

I find it strange that you're still so very confused.

[AceWheeler]

33. Funny, I would say

that if you're neighbor across the street sits on his front porch with his child in his lap and starts shooting at you, he clearly doesn't care what happens to his child. In fact, he may well hope that you will kill the child, so he can accuse you of "atrocity."

So, go back to the beginning. Recognize how and why Gaza came to be what it is, and accept who and what Hamas is, as compared to all the other Arabs seeking peaceful solutions.

No true progressive supports the way Hamas eagerly and willingly sacrifices its own people in it's quest to eliminate Israel. And that includes you.

[Scootaloo]

36. Yes, I'm well aware of what you would say

And what you would say amounts to anything and everything that could possibly justify Israel's mass killing of civilians. After all, option B in this scenario would be criticizing Israel for its actions, and we can't have that, now can we?

[whosinpower1]

23. Subtle sleight of hand

Enthusiastically supporting the state of Israel-here is where I think progressives fall down on their job....I am supportive of the state of Israel, but am extremely critical of Netanyahu, Likud party, and what many would consider the far right.

Being hesitant to criticize what Israel does, because there are those who would see the state dissolved-seems to give Netanyahu and the far right a shield to any criticism.

But, Hamas is not a nation-Israel is a nation. I am extremely critical of Hamas. We can dance all day how awful Hamas has been-but Israeli policies driven by the far right should not be immune to criticism.

[sadoldgirl]

31. Since you claim that Israel is soo progressive,

then why are the rights of Palestinians in Israel not the same as for any Israeli? Equal rights and equal justice are definitely a part of a democracy,

or not?????

[oberliner]

32. They are the same

All Israeli citizens are equal under the law.

[Scootaloo]

37. And the law is, of course, enforced completely equally and fairly

Only problem is, you're wrong.

[King_David]

39. So is that different within Israel as opposed to

The UK ,The USA or Holland ?

Of course all countries have to fight discrimination within their countries.

[Scootaloo]

41. Israel is fighting discrimination?

One wonders how it plans to accomplish that while evicting Arabs from their homes to make way for Jews - Within Israel, even, driving forth Arab Israelis because they are undesirable, to make way for the Racially Superior. Or how about those MK's who incited an anti-black race rior in Tel Aviv... And of course the entire culture-warping scenario of occupation and brutality against the same people who just happen to be on another side of the armistice lines.

Sure, Israel fights discrimination - just like the Catholic Church fights child abuse.

[King_David]

43. You lost me with the "Racially Superior" nonsense .

I read about who started that nonsense on the extreme right wing and I can't argue seriously with that "philosophy".

He cites the Talmud as a text meant to assert Jewish superiority i

http://archive.adl.org/opinion/david_duke_review.html#.VAUhT9m9LCQ

[Scootaloo]

45. Well, Dave, do you have another term for it?

when Israel sets about a plan to forcibly remove Bedouin Arabs - Israeli citizens - from their homes, in order to build Jewish townships - Just Jews, no Arabs - in the same spots? What would you call that, if not racial supremacism? What do you call all the rest of the shit we've been showing you all this time, of Israeli abuses against Arabs?

There's just no other fucking term for it.

[King_David]

46. As I said that analysis is heard on the web in the m

The most extreme right wing sites .


http://archive.adl.org/opinion/david_duke_review.html#.VAUhT9m9LCQ

[Scootaloo]

49. What would you call it, Dave?

when Israel sets about a plan to forcibly remove Bedouin Arabs - Israeli citizens - from their homes, in order to build Jewish townships - Just Jews, no Arabs - in the same spots? What would you call that, if not racial supremacism? What do you call all the rest of the shit we've been showing you all this time, of Israeli abuses against Arabs?

Spare the smokescreen and just answer the question, David. These things are really happening, are really being done, and if they're not to be called racial supremacism, then I want to know what they ought to be called.

[Shaktimaan]

53. If you're talking about the prawyer issue...

Your analysis would be more accurately described as a combination of inaccurate reporting and a gullible reader.

[Scootaloo]

54. Uh huh

So, explain for me, Shaktimaan? Your excuses for ethnic cleansing are always amusing. Will you compare it to affirmative action again/ or maybe just insist that these people don't actually exist? Maybe some nonsense about "The Bible Says," that's always my favorite one.

[Shaktimaan]

60. Interesting reality you inhabit.

I wasn't aware I ever compared ethnic cleansing to affirmative action. Or denied the existence of Palestinians. Or used the bible as an argument for anything.

But then you have a tendency to see things through a certain filter. it seems to block out any inconvenient truths you appear allergic to.

[Scootaloo]

61. Pretty sure it was you who made the Affirmative Action argument

But anyway. Do go on.

[Shaktimaan]

62. Sure.

The situation you described simply isn't what's occurring. But as I said, you have difficulty accepting realities that don't conform to your worldview.

[Scootaloo]

68. So... Just to get this straight

Your initial assertion is that "that's not what's going on." I ask you to expand on what's going on. You respond by telling me "that's not what's going on."

Okay shaktimaan, sure, whatever. You can go back to making shit up about the United Negro College Fund now.

[King_David]

63. You used the very same accusation against another poster a little while ago

And he denied it too .

You have done the same to me a few times saying I support different nasty people.

False accusations that you never backup and personal attacks are the lowest a person can go in debate .

[Israeli]

64. ...........

Quote : " False accusations that you never backup and personal attacks are the lowest a person can go in debate . "

............

No comment .....except ....

[King_David]

65. I saw the very same accusation against someone else here

The very same
Exact same accusation
And he denied it

I was being as polte as possible in that post btw. And that's why lots of people get multiple "time-outs"

[Scootaloo]

69. Your alerts must not be working out in your favor, Dave

Maybe go back a few months to try to find something?

[King_David]

70. Hello Scootaloo , there's No alert necessary

Best not hide so people can see.

Thanks

[Scootaloo]

67. Yes, and I recall apologizing to him for it.

Last edited Wed Sep 3, 2014, 01:17 PM - Edit history (2)

However when I point it at shaktimaan, it's not false. As you can see, not only does he conflate israel's creation with affirmative action - including the burden and loss it placed on Palestinians - BUT, he also maintains that affirmative action is racist against white people and that UNCF denies tuition to white people. These are basic right-wing racist positions to attack affirmative action and traditionally black organizations. Since you're a David Duke connoisseur, maybe you can go look up what he says on the subjects and compare it to Shaktimaan's positions.

Soooo. yeah.

Once again, the person you're backing up isn't worth the time it takes to do so

[Shaktimaan]

71. Thank you.

For linking to my post before offering your creative interpretation of it. I couldn't have possibly made a better rebuttal against your accusation that I compare ethnic cleansing to affirmative action, or that I criticized affirmative action or the UNCF at all. This is a great illustration as to why it's pointless to offer well reasoned arguments to you. (Or to bother arguing with you at all.)

Enjoy your trolling.

[Scootaloo]

73. I feel the same about your lack of substance and constant spreading of falsehoods

Your claims about affirmative action were made into the context of the establishment of israel, which undeniably carried the cost of the ethnic cleansing of ~700,000 Arab men, women, and children from the territory Israel claimed and then expanded into. Which was the point I was making you were responding to. So yes, you were comparing ethnic cleansing to affirmative action.

Further, your assertions about Affirmative Action and the UNCF's donation practices are stock and standard bullshit claims from white racists. I corrected them and you just doubled down, showing that you are as married to your shit opinions about blacks as you are to your shit opinions about arabs.

You don't offer me well-reasoned arguments, Shaktimaan. You offer me garbage tinged with racism.

[Shaktimaan]

74. Also untrue.

My statements about affirmative action were used to compare it with ethnic nationalism, and had nothing to do with your self-serving extrapolations.

Comparing Jewish nationalism and affirmative action doesn't then imply an ongoing comparison between aa and every subsequent historical event related to the creation of Israel.

Regarding affirmative action, the link you provided already adequately describes my views. You were right about the UNCF's scholarship policies, good on that. Your arguments elsewhere contradicts itself so blatantly I don't feel much need to expand on it.

[shaayecanaan]

75. The question stands, though

what would you call the Prawer Plan, if not institutionalised racism?

[Shaktimaan]

80. What do I call it?

I don't know. I think scoot sees it a certain was because his entire process of understanding any issue relies on warping reality until he arrives at a pre-ordained conclusion. As a result, it's not just that I disagree with his interpretations; it's that he has his own facts, history and ideologies that don't match the ones I use here on earth.

So, the prawyer plan... you agree with scoot's description of it as "racial supremacism?" Let's start there.

[Shaktimaan]

59. Wow. What great examples.

This bill aims to exempt lone soldiers from paying television fees. Although originally a temporary order, this bill seeks to make the order into a law so as to grant more benefits to lone soldiers.

Benefits to soldiers is clearly racist. I don't know how I never saw this before.

According to the bill, an Israeli citizen who participates in combat operations or acts of terrorism alongside a hostile organization (including Hezbollah, Hamas and al-Qaeda), or a military organization on behalf of an enemy state (including Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria and Libya), against the security forces of Israel, will be held for a criminal trial, even if the person is a Member of the Knesset, and could have his/her citizenship revoked by the state.

Presumably, because Israeli Arabs are more likely to participate in terrorism than Jews, outlawing it is obviously discriminatory. Makes sense.

The bill aims to institute a compulsory civil service system for 18-year-old individuals who did not or are not obligated to serve in the military.

Are you sure you don't have the terms "equality" and "discriminatory" switched up? Because that would explain a lot.

[King_David]

34. Yes they are equal .

Any other questions?

[sadoldgirl]

35. You know, I should have expected the answer.

Yes, and black people in the US have the same rights as anyone else. I was so happy that the UN called us out on it, only to see and hear the MSM not mentioning it at all.

Well, I listened to a long speech from the author of "The general's son", and that gave me a totally different perspective. He is an Israeli, right? And there are Israelis, who disagree with that country's policy.

BTW: Once Israel has managed to take over all of Palestine ( clearly a zionist plan), what will happen to the Palestinians??

[King_David]

38. Let's get back to your assertion that there are not equal rights

Among all citizens of Israel Jewish Arab Muslim and Christian . Can you explain your assertion before we switch to another topic that you desperately want to.

Give us some examples of discriminatory laws please.

[King_David]

40. A Zionist plan huh ?

An evil Zionist plan ? Just Palestine or does it extend further than that ? How far will these Zionists go?

[Scootaloo]

42. So.. .there's no plan behind all the land seizure in the west bank?

It's all just totally random and meaningless?

Just like all the dead civilians in gaza are a big "oops"?

Or how the dude slugging George Galloway had no connection to anything at all, ever?



Gosh, it's amazing how much of the stuff pertaining to Israel and Zionism is completely devoid of meaning or import or connection to anything else! it's all just happenstance and coincidence that only gives the illusion of meaningfulness!

[King_David]

44. "Those Evil Zionists"

Are also a favorite meme of the most extreme right wing .



http://archive.adl.org/opinion/david_duke_review.html#.VAUhT9m9LCQ

[Scootaloo]

47. Interesting then, you're the only one here saying "evil zionists."

Sadoldgirl and I are simply noting the reality of plans to take over the remaining scraps of Palestine. This is pretty clearly laid out by the reigning party of Israel's charter.

You're the one adding "evil" to the mix and giving the dukester a platform... You keep doing that. Is that just "David solidarity" or something? King_David, David Duke, David Horowitz, et al?

[King_David]

48. I'm afraid I'm done speaking with you here

CYa

[Scootaloo]

50. I'm sorry your smokescreen didn't hold up.

Maybe next time, just try to answer the question?

[King_David]

51. Remember that personal attacks get people on DU all the time

With recurrent time outs .


There was no smokescreen .

Some people desperately require a "win" though , sorry you couldn't get it and with me leaving now your unlikely to get it either.



Bye

[Scootaloo]

52. Well, silencing one's opponents must be easier than defending the indefensible I suppose

[Ken Burch]

56. But not of the poster you responded to, and you know it. n/t.

[azurnoir]

57. Here from Adalah Israeli laws discriminating against Palestinians with Israeli citizenship

http://adalah.org/eng/Articles/1771/Discriminatory-Laws

[sabbat hunter]

66. none of those are laws

they are all just bills.

[azurnoir]

72. Prawer Plan , family unification law (meant to keep Israeli Arabs with Palestinian spouses seperate)

nice try though

[sabbat hunter]

76. Title of the article

Index of Currently Pending Discriminatory Bills in the 19th Israeli Knesset


Bills not laws on the list that they are highlighting.

[azurnoir]

77. real title -Discriminatory Laws- that's it period

and once again for good measure the link

http://adalah.org/eng/Articles/1771/Discriminatory-Laws

[sabbat hunter]

78. In my last post

I copied and pasted the title of the list that they have. I will do it again for you

Adalah
Index of Currently Pending Discriminatory Bills in the 19th Israeli Knesset


(as of 24 June 2013)


Bold for emphasis.

here is the link

http://adalah.org/Public/files/Discriminatory-Laws-Database/Discriminatory-Bills-19th-Knesset-24-06-2013.pdf


The original link you have is deceitful and misleading, when in the article itself and the links, they clearly say they are bills only.

[azurnoir]

79. you pullesdsomething entirely different out of the article and stated that was the article itself

the pdf is a listing of pending laws or at least pending in 2013 so in that much you are correct

[Ken Burch]

55. How many times does it have to be said...

...that opposition to Netanyahu's massacre in Gaza, and support for negotiations over bloodshed as a means to resolve the I/P conflict, DOES NOT, REPEAT NOT equate to support for or defense of Hamas? Most people who opposed the bombing of civilians(and no, 58 seconds isn't enough warning for innocent people to get out of the way...out of simpledecency it should have been five minutes at a minimum)are NOT defenders of Hamas and its tactics and you damn well know it.

Stop setting up false "either/or" choices. It was never a legitimate demand that people of conscience should have to defend Netanyahu or should automatically suspend any dissent about HIS tactics(tactics that are now morally identical to Hamas) just because he called it "self-defense". No other country expects to be able to silence all international and internal debate about its actions simply by invoking "self-defense"...including the United States. Why should the Israeli government get special deference on that point when no such special deference is given to any other government anywhere else.

Besides which, NOTHING would have been different or better if the world had cheered Netanyahu on on this. It's not as if Hamas would have vanished if only the entire planet had said "Go for it, Bibi!". The effects of bombing aren't changed by public opinion about said bombing.

[rateyes]

58. Wow! What a progressive thinking guy! Enthusiastically support an

apartheid state! How much more progressive can one get?!



Progressive Zionist---a fucking oxymoron.