Israel is not a democracy

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/inquiry/16947-israel-is-not-a-democracy

Long-standing Israeli propaganda has it that Israel is the "only democracy in the Middle East". The statements of Western political leaders, particularly from the US and UK, often also make this claim as part of their justification for fostering ties with Israel. They claim the mantle of "democracy" for themselves, while often supporting or directly creating brutal regimes of occupation and tyranny around the world (such as the US-UK occupation of Iraq, and the theocratic Saudi tyrany).

In fact, as activists and critics have long pointed out, Israel is an ethnocracy - a state ruled by a particular ethnic group, in this case, something defied in Israeli law and practice as "the Jewish people".

(In reality, as the Israeli historian Shlomo Sand convincingly argues in his book, The Invention of the Jewish People, there is no such thing as a homogeneous, unified "Jewish people". Instead, there are many different Jewish cultures and identities, ranging from the eastern European Ashkenazis to the Jews of Iraq, Yemen and Ethiopia. As Sand demonstrates, there is no unified secular culture that knits together these various different peoples.)

The state officially discriminates against the indigenous population of historic Palestine - who awoke one day in 1948 to find that they were suddenly defined as "Israeli Arabs" by a state that, at best, regards them with suspicion. My colleague Ben White's second book Palestinians in Israel: Segregation, Discrimination and Democracy is the best introduction to this topic.e ruled by a particular ethnic group, in this case, something defied in Israeli law and practice as "the Jewish people".

[King_David]

1. Ha ha ha ha

Considering the country's and territories around Israel ...



rofl:

[azurnoir]

7. well yes of course and we must remember that even prior to 1991 South Africa

was considered a democracy too

[shira]

23. It's rich seeing a pro-Hamas cheerleader like Asa Wistanley arguing...

....that Israel is not democratic.

Join me in denouncing terror cheerleaders like the OP's Asa Wistanley?

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

26. I think I'll join you

[still_one]

2. What bullshit. Do you even understand the parliamentary form of government they have?

Obviously not

[shira]

14. Consider the author (Asa Wistanley) is a HUGE cheerleader for Hamas....

But the resistance, led by the Qassam Brigades, the armed wing of Hamas, has provided just the morale boost the Palestinian people have needed.

Palestinian defence forces have put up a tenacious and stiff resistance in Gaza, to an extent the enemy was not expecting.

Israel did not expect the humble rockets to make much impact on them, but resistance fire towards Tel Aviv airport forced it to shut down for a time, with international airlines cancelling their flights, and leaving many tourists and Israelis stranded. Poor them! Maybe they know now how Palestinian travellers have felt for more than 66 years.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/inquiry/13052-resistance-unites-palestine-hamas-will-emerge-stronger-from-gaza-

See posts #12 and #13 as well.

Welcome to BDS.

Hamas-style.

[King_David]

3. "there is no unified secular culture that knits together these various different peoples."

That's called wishfull thinking by the BDS crowd .

And this is your business ? Why ?

[guillaumeb]

4. Isreal=United States

Your post also describes the method used to create the US. Many disparate ethnic groups united under a common myth.

In Israel, the myth was that the created state of Israel was "a people without a land for a land without a people". The myth that Palestine was merely empty desert, to be filled by the Jews. (Unspoken was that the Zionists/Jews were the people that Europe did not want.) Israel is indeed an ethnocracy, or an apartheid state if you will, that treats non-Jews as third class citizens.

In the US, the myth was that this country was mostly empty land filled up with heathen savages who had to be displaced so that the European immigrants could occupy this God-given land and fulfill their manifest destiny. Unspoken was the genocide committed against the First Peoples and the slavery of millions of African peoples stolen from their lands and forced to build this country. The descendants of these African peoples are still treated as not being American 400 years after arriving here.

Provocative post.

[truebluegreen]

27. True.

And I would add that the US is not a democracy either (or a republic) despite national elections every 2 years since the will of the people is almost universally ignored.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

5. As he points out, the laws of the state are designed to ensure

that any Jew in the world (regardless of whether or not they have any factual ancestral connection to the historic land of Palestine, now occupied by Israel) can "return" to Israel, while Palestinian refugees, who have been constantly kicked out of their homes by Israel since 1948, are entirely barred from returning to homes they or their grandparents were born in.

[King_David]

6. Seems he has a problem with Israel's existence

Same as Hamas does.

His problem is with Israel not the occupation.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

9. Although legions of Western journalists camp out in Jerusalem,

occasionally in Ramallah, almost all of the mainstream reports from Palestine miss the basic point that Israeli rule in the West Bank is in no way a democratic or enlightened. It is a regime of death squads, settler terrorists, torture and the denial of the most fundamental human rights - along purely ethnic and sectarian lines.

[shira]

13. Asa Wistanley is ridiculously pro-Hamas. See pos#12 below...

There's also this one from this past summer:

Palestine's ‘allies’ must stop condemning armed resistance

Unfortunately, she appended a caveat: "I denounce deadly force on both sides" – a wide reaching statement which seems to call for Palestinians to lay down their arms in the face of Israeli aggression and ultra-violence....

...Left-wing pundit and columnist Owen Jones responded to the Israeli assault with a fairly popular article criticizing Israel. But he also criticized Palestinians resistance, stating that there is "no defense for Hamas firing rockets into civilian areas" – taking as a given this Israeli propaganda line.

Wistanley is of course a big proponent of BDS.

Maybe we missed the memo, but I guess supporting Hamas is now the liberal/progressive thing to do as a BDS supporter....

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

15. "The country has imposed the most crude and brutal form of military rule on at least one

significant section of the native population of the land, almost continuously, since its inception."


BDS

[shira]

17. Do you have a problem with your source being pro- Hamas?

Maybe all BDS sources are the same?

Help me out here...

Just wanna know.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

20. From 1948 until 1966, the Palestinian citizens of Israel were subjected to a military regime,

under which they were bared from free movement, and were in thrall to a strict regime of permits. In 1967, Israel invaded and illegally occupied the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and the section of south-west Syria known as the Golan Heights. The Palestinians in the newly-occupied territories were subjected to a brutal military rule, one that (although its forms have shifted since the Oslo accord) has continued until the present day.

[shira]

22. You're quoting from a pro-Hamasnik like Wistanley. May as well be David Duke...

Why should anyone care what he writes about the Jewish state?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

24. Why should anybody care what you write about anything?

I let DUers decide what they want to believe, but there will always be a scared and shrill contingent: focused on shutting down debate.

[truebluegreen]

28. +1 nt

[shira]

56. So u think liberals should care about what Hamas supporters think of Jews....

Is that correct?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

57. I'm not sure what alternate universe you got that from, but I will restate...

I let DUers decide what they want to believe, but there will always be a scared and shrill hasbara contingent: focused on shutting down debate.

[shira]

58. Criticism of Israel is one thing. Pro-Hamas, Jew-hating incitement & propaganda....

....is another. I think sane people can distinguish between the two & denounce the latter for the stinking garbage it is.

Asa Wistanley is a proud, outspoken supporter of Hamas & their war against the Jews.

Full stop.

At the very least, I expect fellow liberals to trash supporters of Hamas' vile Jew-hating, genocidal agenda. Just as I expect them to do the same with any garden variety neo-Nazi.

Why is that too much to ask for?

[laserhaas]

62. As a yid, I take exception to the argument of anti-Israel; BUT, I do NOT condone evil in our names.

Nor do I condone America going to war in the middle east, simply because we are more powerful.

If you had NOT made the remark that your comment is a personal attack - I would then be okay with your comments as debate (1st 2 paragraphs only).

Totally disagree with the extremism of either points of view;
and desire - ONLY - facts specifics

Please refrain from crying out loud against the person?

Stick with opines on the subject matter... is a better way to be!

[Shaktimaan]

96. That's what he said, sure.

But it's not remotely true.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

97. LOL. The great sage shak has spoken.

[Shaktimaan]

95. Correct.

In what sense does this indicate that Israel is undemocratic?

I noticed that almost all of the op's examples were from the occupied territories, describing abuses against non-citizens of Israel. Which may be valid, but are an entirely separate issue from that of Israeli democracy. When have an occupied people ever been granted the same rights as the citizens of an occupation? In areas Israel has designated as Israel the indigenous Palestinians enjoy citizenship and equal rights under the law.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

98. "I noticed that almost all of the op's examples were from the occupied territories..."

"but are an entirely separate issue from that of Israeli democracy."

You're funny.

[azurnoir]

8. Israel is now trying to jail Palestinians for idealogical crime

The Israelis previously sent Abu Rahme to prison using as a pretext the pathetic notion that an art project made from a collection of spent Israeli tear-gas cannisters found in Abu Rahme's home constituted a "weapon".

Now the army are attempting to put him away again, and the argument is that his is guilty of "idealogical crime," reports 972, an Israeli website. No wonder, when all Palestinian protest in the West Bank is outlawed by Israeli military decree.

Israel's torture regime in the West Bank needs to end now.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/inquiry/16947-israel-is-not-a-democracy

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

11. Be careful, azurnoir. Dave might tell you that you are not allowed to post your thoughts...

depending whether or not you are and insider in his eyes.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=95373

King_David (10,950 posts)
70. Strange you're comfortable commenting in this thread to the same degree as Israeli is...

You shouldn't be...

She has a right to... She is not on outsider ( on either side of this )

Now what's really odd is somebody that calls themselves a liberal deigning to callously judge others and exclude them based on ethnic / religious lines.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=95386

Star Member King_David (10,952 posts)
75. It's up to you , I'm just amazed your so comfortable with it

Israeli is an insider..

azurnoir, what's the definition of bigotry?

[NaturalHigh]

10. Cool story bro.

[shira]

12. (Aug 2014) Asa Wistanley: Hamas waging just & defensive war...

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/inquiry/13160-hamas-is-waging-a-just-and-defensive-liberation-war-in-gaza

The simple fact is that, in the Gaza ground war, the Palestinian resistance forces are beating the Israeli arm, who then retreat into their APCs so that their forces than bomb the whole area from afar. They are putting up stiff resistance, one that the Israelis did not expect. They are well-trained, professional and are acting in an ethical way.

All of Hamas's political and military leaders in recent statements and speeches (including in Deif's audio statement Tuesday) have emphasized the moral difference between the two sides: while Israel deliberately targets Palestinian civilians sheltering from the bombing in UN schools (a war crime, and a form of collective punishment intended to put pressure on the resistance), Hamas has been targeting only soldiers. As I detailed in my column last week the numbers bear this out, with 59 Israelis being killed so far, almost all of them soldiers.

Nice pro-Hamas, pro-terror perspective for a liberal board.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

16. The fundamentally anti-democratic nature of Israel was once again illustrated this week

during a sentencing hearing for Abdullah Abu Rahme, a Palestinian protester and well-known activist from the village of Bil'in.

The agricultural village has been struggling for a decade against Israel's theft of its lands in order to build settlements in which only Jews are permitted to live, and the apartheid wall.

BDS

[shira]

18. Wistanley is just another pro-BDS, pro-Hamas fascist...

Here's a challenge for you...

In the future, can you post opinions from BDS proponents - unlike Asa Wistanley - who aren't fascist supporters of terror groups like Hamas that want all Jews dead?

If they exist.

This is a liberal board, after all.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

19. Jewish settlers in West Bank are treated as Israeli citizens and subjected to Israel civil law

(in theory: in reality they have a free hand to carry out crimes and abuse against Palestinian civilians). Palestinians living the same territory, where they and their ancestors have lived since time immemorial, are tried under Israeli military law - a system of kangaroo courts in which military officers rubber stamp the decisions of their colleagues. The conviction rate of these "courts" is 99.7 percent - a figure to make even the most brutal regional dictator blush.

[shira]

21. Are Hamas supporters like Asa Wistanley representative of the BDS movement?

Or is he an outlier you strongly condemn?

Waiting for a condemnation if he doesn't speak for most BDS'ers....

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

25. Happy Valentines, shira.

[azurnoir]

47. The article was published August 1 2014 at the height of Proctive Edge and at a time when Hamas

Last edited Thu Feb 19, 2015, 02:39 AM - Edit history (1)

was militarily engaging IDF something that seems not to mentioned much for some reason

[shira]

48. You agree with Wistanley when it comes to Hamas? n/t

[azurnoir]

50. I think that at a point during last summers attack on Gaza and its people

that possibly some of Hamas's action were defensive in nature- and remember when it comes to the tunnles, even IDF's leaders said they were for military targets as opposed to civilian ones

[shira]

51. Wistanley didn't say some of Hamas' actions were defensive in nature.

He defended their entire war effort, and you know damned well what Hamas was trying to do.

Wistanley's a vile & nasty POS, do u agree?

[azurnoir]

53. I neither agree nor disagree entirely :)

why always the litmus test with you, what is your aim here?

[shira]

55. LoL. So what exactly do u disagree with?

I disagree entirely with it, just as I'd disagree with the same piece if written by a Stormfront member.

Wistanley is a supporter of Hamas & their terror attacks.

That makes him a Jew hater extraordinaire.

[azurnoir]

59. are you comparing me too or saying I am a Stormfront member?

don't be shy now

[shira]

64. I'm asking specifically what u disagree with. So what's your answer?

I consider Hamas' supporters & defenders no better than filthy Stormfront neo-Nazis. But since you say you're not a supporter or defender of Hamas, what are you worried about?

[azurnoir]

65. yes you know what you consider bbut I already gave you my answer

sorry you don't like it or it wasn't more useful to you

[shira]

67. LoL at yet another deflection. Why do u fear the simplest questions?

Embarassment?

Shame?

Stand by your convictions!

[azurnoir]

69. what are you talking about and oh BTW I edited my comment

I felt it might be too hostile but as I said you got your answer and sorry it was not what you wanted or found somehow useful

[shira]

72. You still didn't answer. I want to know what u agree or disagree with....

Why are you so afraid to answer?

[azurnoir]

75. I already answered you and I am not afraid as you claim but I have already answered

I'm not giving you an itemized list

[King_David]

29. Asa Winstsnely is another expert who has adopted another people's cause and made it his own.

Another aspiring leader of the Palestinian people who's expertise arises from the fact that he's been visiting the area since 2004

Associate editor with The Electronic Intifada, Asa Winstanley is an investigative journalist who lives in London. He has been visiting Palestine regularly since 2004. Read more.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

30. It's odd, dave, that you believe you have the right to exclude people from the I/P conflict.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=95373

Star Member King_David (10,950 posts)
70. Strange you're comfortable commenting in this thread to the same degree as Israeli is...

You shouldn't be...

She has a right to... She is not on outsider ( on either side of this )

It's odd, dave, that some would label posters as insiders or outsiders in a conflict, and I would wonder what they would say about other struggles: such as LGBTQ rights. If a hater told me that I cannot voice my support for LGBTQ, since they consider me on the outside, do you really believe that they should be taken seriously?

So what's really freakishly odd is somebody that calls themselves a liberal deigning to callously judge others and exclude them based on ethnic / religious lines.

[King_David]

31. Well it's all about the motivation of these people

What makes these people adopt another people's cause and make it their own and one and only primary cause?

Well that is because "Anti Zionism" is acceptable in polite society.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

32. That's your misguided interpretation.

If one stands up for LGBTQ rights I would expect haters to say the same of them.


On edit: But let's be serious, dave. That is not what you were saying.

I am probably closer to Israeli in viewpoint than you are so intimating that I am an anti-zionist, saying that I am on the outside, whereas Israeli is on the inside still smacks of exclusion based on ethnicity / religion.

Star Member King_David (10,950 posts)
70. Strange you're comfortable commenting in this thread to the same degree as Israeli is...

You shouldn't be...

She has a right to... She is not on outsider ( on either side of this )

You really are being tremendously untruthful here, dave. You are assigning a right based upon what exactly?? Ethnicity?? Religion??

[King_David]

36. Israeli is intimitly involved in this

As are the Palestinians and their Muslim brethren , most Jews have family in Israel and we are very close to the action and have an actual horse in the race.

Rense or David Duke or Alex Kane or Greta Berlin come to the table for different reasons .

Similar views to Israeli ... Maybe coincidently... Who knows?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

37. So then you are assigning a right to speech based solely upon ethnicity and Religion...

while excluding other opinions.

That's what you are saying, dave.


Now what's really odd is somebody that calls themselves a liberal deigning to callously judge others and exclude them based on ethnic / religious lines.

[King_David]

38. No that's poor extrapolation

Try again

Merci

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

39. You may be entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

My analysis was spot on.

God, you are awful at this.

[King_David]

40. Nah I don't think so

You post the exact post so many times its rendered absolute or useless .

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

41. Give my regards to the ethnocracy, dave.

And as always, thanks for the kick.

[shira]

34. Wistanley & his ilk are motivated by hate to slander & incite vs. the Jews....

They support Hamas' neo-nazi war aims vs. the Jews.

This isn't even debatable, it's so fucking obvious. They're not even trying to hide it anymore.

================

Welcome to the 21st century; same as the early 20th century.

History repeating itself all over again with the same fascist brownshirts on the wrong side of history.

[guillaumeb]

35. when you say Fascist brownshirts

are you referring to the illegal occupiers of land, the people who are ethnically cleansing territory that they have illegally seized? Or some other fascists?

[guillaumeb]

33. much of the "defend Israel no matter what"

arguments here revolve around the alleged bias of one commenter. In all of these counter posts there is no attempt to dispute the factual basis of what was posted. That Israel has violated International Law regarding occupation of illegally seized territory, that non-Jews are treated as second class citizens at best, that genocide is being committed against the Palestinians, all these inconvenient facts are cast aside because the argument here centers around the messenger rather than the message.

Similar to the pathetic attempts of J. Edgar Hoover to discredit Martin Luther King Jr. by attacking his alleged sexual indiscretions rather than admitting the essential correctness of his message.
Similar to the attempts to discredit the anti-war movement in the 1960' and 1970's by focusing on a tiny number of violent acts rather than the message of the movement.

Interesting that none of these "defend Israel" posters mention Israeli historian Shlomo Sand's argument about the fiction of the homogenous Jewish people. This fiction is at the heart of the Zionist claim of an ancestral homeland for Jewish people. If there is no "unified Jewish people" there can be no claims to speak for them.

Also interesting and normal in many arguments about Israeli terrorism is the claim that merely mentioning the fact of Israeli terror tactics makes one an anti-Semite.

[shira]

49. Countering a Jew hater's points like the OP's Asa Wistanley is as much a waste of time....

....as countering David Duke's garbage over at Stormfront.

that genocide is being committed against the Palestinians, all these inconvenient facts

Facts to 911 truthers maybe.

Israeli historian Shlomo Sand's argument about the fiction of the homogenous Jewish people.

You had to go there...

And you wonder why no one sane takes these garbage Hamas talking points seriously?

[guillaumeb]

61. genocide is defined as:

the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

That said, since the first terror attacks perpetrated by Irgun and Stern, the aim of the Israelis, stated explicitly by them many times, has been to ethnically cleanse Palestine by terrorizing the indigenous inhabitants, the Palestinians, into leaving Israel.

In violation of International Law, Israel has seized, occupied, and colonized the West Bank since it pre-emptively attacked Egypt, Jordan, and Syria in 1967. It continues, with US support and patronage, to ignore International Law.

Israeli law makes second class citizens of all non-Jews. The evidence is abundant and massively documented.

These are all facts, as opposed to opinions. That these facts are uncomfortable to supporters of the Israeli occupation is evident from the harsh attacks leveled against anyone who dares to question the moral rightness of the Israeli position. I have read these attacks in many publications. But harsh words, name calling, and accusations of ethnic hate are simply a smokescreen to hide the attacker's weak argument and lack of fact.

[shira]

42. You should post more from pro-Hamas fascists like Asa Wistanley...

Let everyone know what the neo-nazis from BDS are all about....

Palestine's ‘allies’ must stop condemning armed resistance
http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/20786

[azurnoir]

43. Interesting article especially this part about IDF censoring of the news especially about the rocket

Like most other journalists, Jones is ignoring the fact that in their statements, Hamas and other resistance factions regularly declare military targets. As the brilliant Nazareth-based journalist Jonathan Cook often points out, tight Israeli military restrictions on reporting the landing locations of Resistance rockets makes this all hard to verify.

http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/20786

Thanks for posting

[shira]

44. Nice deflection from Wistanley's open support for Hamas' terror attacks.

Think you can muster enough energy to oppose Asa Wistanley's cheerleading for Hamas?

Maybe try to distance the "noble" BDS movement from that neo-Naziism?

[azurnoir]

45. is that the best you can do spout filthy name calling such as neo-nazi

IDF censors the news that has been pointed out here before by an Israeli citizen in fact

[shira]

46. Those who support Hamas' terror attacks against Jews are filthy neo-nazis...

Every bit as much as scumbags who supported the Nazi effort against Jews more than 70 years ago.

[azurnoir]

60. so you're saying once again Hamas attacks only Jews not Israeli's or Israel itself?

[shira]

63. Hamas' main goal is to attack Jews. You know that very well....

Why are you playing games?

[azurnoir]

66. No games I asked you a question period

[shira]

68. And I answered you: Hamas' intent is to deliberately attack Jews in Israel...

Can you at least acknowledge that?

[azurnoir]

70. That's not what you said though you just added the "in Israel part to to #68

and Hamas intent would be to attack Israel unless they have really really smart rockets

shira (24,170 posts)
63. Hamas' main goal is to attack Jews. You know that very well....

Why are you playing games?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=95735

[shira]

71. So? Both are correct. Their goal is to attack Jews, whether in Israel or outside Israel....

It's in their founding charter.

What's your point?

And why do you have such difficulty acknowledging this basic fact?

[azurnoir]

73. to claim Hamas is trying to attack only Jews and in other places such as New York is ridiculous

Hamas attacks Israel

just because you claim something to be a fact does not "make it so"

[shira]

74. Why is this so difficult? Their stated enemies are the Jews. That's a fact. n/t

[azurnoir]

76. It's not difficult at all Hamas attacks Israel period

[shira]

77. So now you're denying Hamas' enemies are the Jews? n/t

[azurnoir]

78. I'm saying Hamas's enemy is Israel you might add the PA too at least on occasion

[shira]

79. Who are Hamas' non-Jewish enemies within Israel? n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

80. Palestinian Israelis. The other non-Jewish 24%.

A hamas rocket, if it hits anything, doesn't ask for ethnicity. Does it?

[shira]

81. Show us evidence Hamas has a problem with Israel's non-Jews. n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

82. Actually, if you want to prove that then go ahead.

I just did by mentioning that a rocket fired by hamas could hit anybody and doesn't ask if they are Jewish, Muslin, Christian, Hindu, Atheist or other.

[shira]

83. So you have no proof. There's plenty showing Hamas wants Jews dead...

Nothing I know of that has Hamas calling for the killing of anyone non-Jewish in Israel.

So tell me why it's so difficult for you to acknowledge Hamas wants Jews dead?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

84. The onus is on you to present proof.

If you make an accusation...

[shira]

85. Proof Hamas wants the Jews of Israel dead? n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

86. Are you confusing yourself??

Please follow the thread.

[shira]

87. There's plenty of proof Hamas wants Israel's Jews dead....

No proof I know of that Hamas' intent is to kill Israel's non-Jews.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

88. Sorry, but I can just take your word for it.

Just show us the money.

[shira]

89. You want me to prove Hamas wants Israel's non-Jews dead...

....as much as they want the Jews dead?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

90. If you make an allegation then you should be

expected to back it up.

When I have accused Israel, rather justly IMHO, of being an apartheid state it is not just opinion, but there is plenty of proof to back that statement up with: illegal colonization, hemming in Palestinian population, land theft etc.

Now if I mentioned that Israel wants Iran blown up I should provide proof, right?

[shira]

91. What I'm saying is there is no evidence Hamas wants to blow up....

...or kill any of Israel's non-Jewish population.

You want me to prove a negative?

When I have accused Israel, rather justly IMHO, of being an apartheid state it is not just opinion, but there is plenty of proof to back that statement up with: illegal colonization, hemming in Palestinian population, land theft etc.

That is your opinion.

Not the opinion, however, of any western democracy or major human rights group like HRW or Amnesty.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

92. No, I am asking you to prove an accusation on your part.

If hamas attacks Israel with rockets then they attack, potentially, anybody that is in range of the rockets in Israel: Muslim, Christian, Atheist, Jew.

If Hamas fires a rocket at India, good luck with that, are they only attacking Hindus?

And as to my opinion on Israeli apartheid...

Regardless of the gutless politicians that turn a blind eye to Israeli apartheid it does not mean that it doesn't exist. The same can be said for the gutless politicians that knew Batista was a bloody dictator, that the Shah was a bloody tyrant, and that Israels leaders were former terrorists. They may be bastards but they are our bastards just doesn't cut it any more.


Rape is still rape, murder is still murder, and theft is still theft. Those are the facts.

[azurnoir]

93. So you're claiming the Israeli Bedouin killed by a Hamas rocket was a victim of friendly fire?

http://www.timesofisrael.com/negev-bedouin-defenseless-as-man-killed-4-injured-by-gaza-rocket/

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

94. And that is our point, shira.

Thank you, azurnoir. Now hopefully that has been put to bed...so that another outrage may be manufactured.

[Fred Sanders]

101. Fascist and Nazi in the same sentence....you win.

[cheapdate]

52. Of course they are. It's a limited democracy, for sure.

[Bonobo]

99. Silliness does not enhance your reputation for truth telling. nt

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

100. You're more than welcome to discuss the article.

[Bonobo]

102. Actually I am welcome to post whatever I wish.

In this case, my comment is that it is silly to have posted such a preposterous article.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

103. Opinions vary.

[shira]

104. Any article mentioning the crank Shlomo Sand (Jews are an invented people)....

...isn't worth the effort of reading, let alone analyzing. What a fucking waste of space on a liberal board.

Funny that Sand recently resigned from being "an invented Jew" (his terminology actually).



I wonder how the pro-Hamas, Israel hating neo-Nazi Paparazzi would respond to Sand writing his next book about the invented Palestinian people in their invented Palestinian homeland...

Would they heartily approve of that as much as they've drooled over his Jew baiting books...

Hmm.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

105. "Who takes this schlock seriously at a liberal board?"

Real liberals challenge the status quo.

Real liberals that aren't brainwashed by Israeli hasbara.

Real liberals that are tired of Israeli apartheid.

BDS.

[shira]

106. Shlomo Sand is an unhinged crank whose dumb rantings make people stupid.

Same goes for posts written by pro-Hamas neo-Nazi psycopaths.

They're of zero value to liberals.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

108. "Same goes for posts written by pro-Hamas neo-Nazi psycopaths."

Are you accusing me of something?

[shira]

109. The OP was written by a pro-Hamas, neo-Nazi psycopath (Asa Wistanley). n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

113. Why not just scream "DavidDuke! DavidDuke!"

Really, shira, don't you ever get tired of accusing critics of Israel as Nazis?

It becomes so comically sad to see you do it so often.

[shira]

116. Liberal critics of Israel aren't pro-Hamas like Wistanley, or Yvonne Ridley. n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

119. All I see in your posts are DavidDuke! DavidDuke!

[shira]

120. Sand claims anti-semitism doesn't exist today. Do u agree with Shlomo Sand?

Not that I expect a straight answer from you.

“The century of anti-Semitism between 1850 and 1950 is finished. Pro-Zionists don’t understand history. I don’t think that political public anti-Semitism exists today in the western world. You cannot find members of Parliament in Britain or the United States who are openly anti-Semitic. You cannot find journalists who are anti-Semitic. You cannot find films that are anti-Semitic.”

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

138. In the youtube link provided, Sand makes it pretty clear he is referring to politics.

You cannot find a member of Parliament in (unintelligibly) Britian or the United States that is openly anti-Semitic.

Criticizing Zionism, criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic

Nice try.

[shira]

107. Are the Palestinians an invented people like Sand alleges the Jews are? n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

111. As a work of history

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Invention_of_the_Jewish_People

Writing in The Financial Times, British historian Tony Judt commented, "Shlomo Sand has written a remarkable book. In cool, scholarly prose he has, quite simply, normalized Jewish history." He states that he is untroubled by the book's historical perspective, and that "Sand – for example in his emphasis upon the conversions and ethnic mixing that characterise the Jews in earlier times – is telling us nothing we do not already know."[3] [27] British historian Eric Hobsbawm selected Sand's book as one of his "Books of the Year" for 2009: "Shlomo Sand's The Invention of the Jewish People (Verso) is both a welcome and, in the case of Israel, much needed exercise in the dismantling of nationalist historical myth and a plea for an Israel that belongs equally to all its inhabitants."[28]

[shira]

114. You punted by not answering. So once again...

Are the Palestinians an invented people, or do u fear agreeing to such a racist statement?

Don't run away from yet another question.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

117. I believe in some of your posts that

you have mentioned that the Palestinians aren't.

It depends on the term "invented."

Did you ever read Sand's book or are you just reacting as usual?

Have you considered that what Sand has written applies to other nations as well?

German.

Polish.

English.

Irish.

[shira]

118. That's 2 strikes. Once again, would u say the Palestinians.....

....are an invented people?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

122. Try rereading what I wrote before you

jump up and down again.

[shira]

124. You didn't answer b/c you realize how racist Sand's thesis is. n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

126. Oh, you're jumping up and down again.

Perhaps all these Israelis, that you call anti-Semites, know something that your Bostonian existence has never taught you.

Perhaps you should IM Israeli so she can set you straight.

[shira]

127. Sand claims anti-semitism no longer exists. He's a crank, right? n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

139. That's not what he said in the video you posted.

He is talking politics.

You cannot find a member of Parliament in (unintelligibly) Britian of the United States that is openly anti-Semitic.

Criticising Zionism, criticising Israel is not anti-Semitic

[shira]

110. Further, do u believe the Jews are an invented people - as Sand claims? n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

112. See reply 111.

[shira]

115. I asked YOU. So yes or no, are the Jews an invented people? n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

121. As azurnoir has explained to you thing are

just not black and whit, and I have answered you that peoples and nations come about promoting their similarity, but historically that is not always the case.

[shira]

123. You punted again. I get it, you're too embarassed to answer. n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

125. No, shira. You just don't have the ability to read.

You do, however, work in absolutes, and that us a comically sad existence.

[shira]

128. Your scholarly hero, Mr. Sand, says anti-semitism no longer exists...

Do you take him seriously on that one?

Inquiring minds would like to know.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

129. Heros are for children and storybooks shira.

[shira]

130. Sand is on record stating anti-semitism no longer exists in the western world....

This is a "scholar" you believe should be taken seriously by liberals.

You wanna walk that one back, Ace?

[azurnoir]

131. could you provide a link to Sand saying those exact words please?

we'll go from there okay?

[shira]

132. It's in post #120 above, but here's the link. Try defending that one....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=95874

[azurnoir]

133. Richard Millet the source of your video defended Anders Breivik saying

He describes Breivik's victims as "mixed-raced, globalized, uncultivated, social-democrat petit bourgeois." In the same essay, he also argues that the Norwegian massacre was the result of a weakened European identity, cultural decay, mass immigration and multiculturalism, and calls Breivik's mass murders “formal perfection

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Millet

now name members of the US House Senate or executive branch that are antisemitic, despite Malcolm Hoenlein's claims of top-down antisemitism in the US government, same with the UK

There is “top-down anti-Semitism” in the US, said Hoenlein, and, much like in the United Kingdom, it is “the poison of the elite that trickles down into society.”

http://www.timesofisrael.com/american-jewish-leader-danger-of-anti-semitic-spillover-in-us-criticism-of-israel/#ixzz3SGQESJuY

[shira]

134. Deflection - and wrong Richard Millet. He's British, not French.

Shlomo Sand is a disturbed, bigoted crank & phony who writes dumb stuff for gullible people.

Agreed?

[azurnoir]

135. Nope I do not, Sand is an interesting character as are his writtings regardless of of whether or not

I agree with him

and the Millet(t)s appear to be of similar mindsets, so much so it's very hard to tell them apart

[shira]

136. Oh? So u still take Sand seriously despite his stupid remark on anti-semitism?

I find that fascinating.

How dumb does he need to get before you start questioning his credibility?

[azurnoir]

137. as I said I find him interesting and you've not yet named antisemitic memebers of the US

House, Senate or Executive branch

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

141. Which was Sand's point, but some gloss over that to accuse him of saying something he didn't.

IMHO, this charade where we have to justify false accusations, is a rather comical exercise.

We know they are lies or half truths, which is as good as a lie, the poster in question knows they are lies and they know that we know.

It is all rather a sad day for Zionist reasoning.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

140. Why would I walk back something that you are not being honest with?

From your youtube video Sand stated that.

You cannot find a member of Parliament in (unintelligibly) Britian of the United States that is openly anti-Semitic.

Criticising Zionism, criticising Israel is not anti-Semitic

He's talking about politics there, shira.


Nice try.