Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumWhat makes Israel apartheid? Please cite proof and references.
This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Lithos (a host of the Israel/Palestine group).
I would like to see why, after tonight's election, seeing that the Joint List of Israeli Arab Parties were the third largest group to have seats in the Knesset.
Seems that they enjoy equal rights the same as Jewish citizens.
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Tony_FLADEM
(3,023 posts)They are affected by the policies of the Israeli government but they have no say in helping formulate these policies. If they were allowed to vote the Arab Parties would have 35-40 seats instead of a mere 13.
android fan
(214 posts)not Israel. That's the big honking difference. Palestine already has a government run by Mahmoud Abbas. It is in Ramallah.
Tony_FLADEM
(3,023 posts)the Palestinians in these territories are being ruled by the Israeli Government. Abbas has no power. I even heard when he wants to travel somewhere he has to get permission from the Israeli Government.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)have ilegally gobbled up with their Jewish-only colonies.
It's apartheid.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)Not to mention that many Palestinians who were expelled in the Nakba, or are descended from those who were, have a better right to be citizens of Israel than many Israelis who immigrated under the racist right of "return" do.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)And over whom Israel has declared eternal dominion.
Much like the Pharoah did to the Jews back in the day.
android fan
(214 posts)Palestinians can freely apply for Israeli citizenship and enjoy the same rights as everyone else.
You yell at us that we don't let Palestinians vote - they can't - they are NOT citizens of Israel by any means. They are citizens of Palestine run with Mahmoud Abbas.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Israel has spoken on this subject, and decisively so. It will occupy the West Bank, and rule it without the consent of its people, as long as Israel itself exists.
Israel has given the Palestinians no choice: the only way the occupation will ever end is via the destruction of the state of Israel. They can't do it militarily, so they will have to do it demographically.
Two-state solution is no longer a topic of conversation between the two tribes. Now it 's a matter of when Israel grants the people under its permanent rule basic civil rights.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and another for those non-Israeli's living under Israel's brutal military rule and an example children or juveniles are living by 2 different systems one normal police type for settler children and a military justice system for Palestinian children
Israeli children are considered adults at 18 while Palestinian children live under a different standard
http://www.unicef.org/oPt/UNICEF_oPt_Children_in_Israeli_Military_Detention_Observations_and_Recommendations_-_6_March_2013.pdf
now I've been told this is justified because the Palestinians are not Israeli citizens but the territory the Israeli 'settlers are living on is not Israel
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)people like you who enjoy all the benefits of life and deny the reality of the West Bank. My biggest regret is some of my tax dollars go to support the repression of Palestine.
Response to android fan (Original post)
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android fan
(214 posts)But you tell me *WHERE* Palestinian are a citizens of Israel? You CAN'T because there isn't one because they are citizens of the state of Palestine. Their city is in Ramallah.
Response to android fan (Reply #8)
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geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)If Palestinians want control over their own destiny, they need to swallow Israel rather than separating from it.
Jewish democracy died today.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Israel treats the West bank as part of Israel - it's why Israelis keep moving in. Those Israelis enjoy full rights under israeli law, the material perks of being considered Israeli communities (electricity, water, roads, housing...) all while the Arabs they are taking land from are ruled by military fiat. Even in "Area A," the Palestinian Government can't do much without asking Israel for permission, because of the ways Areas A, B, and C are set up. As we see with Israel's constant withholding of tax revenue and occasional mass arrests of Palestinian MP's, the Palestinian "government" is wholly subordinate to their rulers.
Within Israel proper (for which we will use the 1949 armistice lines, for simplicity's sake), 20% of the population of Israel is Arab. They have been shut out of government since the nation's inception, with no Arab-focused party ever gaining a palce in hte ruling coalition; potential coalitions headed by Jewish parties would rather collapse and cede power to their rivals, than bring in Arabs, as we saw in 2013.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)android fan
(214 posts)Are you seriously that rude?
All I asked for proof, and so far everyone's 'proof' has fallen flat, due to the very fact that Palestinian citizens are NOT Israeli citizens. They are more than welcome to apply for an Israeli citizenship like everyone else.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Just like gay men have the right to marry a woman in Russia.
PotatoChip
(3,186 posts)
Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)
Fozzledick
(3,921 posts)just mindless repetition and a shameless disregard for truth.
android fan
(214 posts)and refusing to accept plain facts as truth...
It just blows my mind on how many people can call themselves Democrats and be hostile to a specific religion that normally enjoys Democratic support.
DetlefK
(16,670 posts)1. Palestinians have big problems obtaining building permits for new houses. So they build without those permits. And Israel uses this lack of permits to tear the buildings down again. And when the Palestinians leave the area, guess who swoops in to build there?
http://mondoweiss.net/2015/02/israel-demolished-palestinians
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/1/24/un-israel.html
2. Israel declares areas as national parks to deny that area to palestinian communities for development. (Israel has a dozen national parks where you can see rocks and bushes in their natural habitat.)
http://www.btselem.org/jerusalem/national_parks
http://www.btselem.org/download/gan_czavim/en.html
android fan
(214 posts)are not acceptable as references. They are pro-BDS anti-Semitic websites, therefore biased.
That even includes BTselem.
so keep trying, DetlefK, I'm sure you will open your eyes on the actual facts, not some bullshit that the BDS people are feeding you.
DetlefK
(16,670 posts)Those run by people or corporations or nations (you rejected Al-Jazeera because of Qatar) supporting Israel I suppose?
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Ask for sources, then dismiss them out-of-hand because they say something you don't like.
No need to expose myself to your nonsense.
Bye.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)For a time, Israel's excuse was that the occupation was just a temporary measure until peace could be negotiated. Everyone pretty much understood that this was a lie, but at least there was plausible deniability. But now Bibi has come out and said that the occupation is not going to end and the settlements are going to continue, making a permanent apartheid state official policy.
In Israel proper, the situation is more like Jim Crow than apartheid. Rampant discrimination in areas like housing, immigration, marriage, etc., Israeli Arabs are second class citizens, but it falls short of apartheid like exists in occupied territories.
android fan
(214 posts)They gave up control to PLO and then Hamas took it over.
Hamas is the bad boy in this fight.
And you people call Israel apartheid? I'd be looking into Hamas and their ideas of "rebuilding"..
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Gaza is an open-air prison.
Hamas is a bad guy, and Likud is another bad guy. Israel just voted for permanent apartheid and expanded settlements.
android fan
(214 posts)Dan, I think it'd be best if you look up the history and research it.
You're just basically guessing.
Gaza is not an open-air prison. It has Hamas, and it controls the government, and that's why it is under a lot of restrictions to try to get rid of Hamas and put in a better government than a terrorist group bent on Israeli destruction that is written on their charter. From what I hear, Gaza before the turnover was one of the nicest places to visit. Now it became a shithole because Hamas is utilizing all their resources to focus on rebuilding destruction to go after Israel.
Oh, and did you notice, since the war ended, that Gaza hasn't even gotten anywhere with its citizens in rebuilding their land.... Instead, it diverts the necessary materials to focus on destroying Israel? The funds has already stopped coming in because Hamas were not properly utilizing it.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Again, the West Bank is an obvious apartheid state.
Gaza is a prison camp. It's in the state it's in because Israel tightly seals the borders and occasionally bombs it to the ground.
Mosby
(19,491 posts)Moreover, the security arrangements are the product of signed agreements between the two sides, so the occupation is legal.
This is what President Carter had to say about the apartheid analogy:
It's not Israel. The book has nothing to do with what's going on inside Israel which is a wonderful democracy, you know, where everyone has guaranteed equal rights and where, under the law, Arabs and Jews who are Israelis have the same privileges about Israel. That's been most of the controversy because people assume it's about Israel. It's not.
"I've never alleged that the framework of apartheid existed within Israel at all, and that what does exist in the West Bank is based on trying to take Palestinian land and not on racism. So it was a very clear distinction."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine:_Peace_Not_Apartheid
There is no apartheid in Israel, period.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)an apartheid system. Since Israel is imposing the apartheid, and has now signaled that it has no intention of allowing the Palestinians to have a state, but wants the apartheid to continue forever, this makes Israel an apartheid state.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Except for the inconvenient fact that Israel controls the water, electricity, and physical access to and from Gaza, including sea access, yes I suppose a claim could be made that Hamas controls Gaza.
I infer from the responses and your replies that either:
a) you know absolutely nothing about the subject, or
b) you are being deliberately provocative to annoy, or
c) you are a troll perhaps, but one who avoids blatant provocation so as to avoid being ejected
please enlighten me and give links proving your points
Dick Dastardly
(937 posts)Continuous repetition of baseless claims does not make them true.
Israel does not control the water in Gaza.
Israel does not control the electricity in Gaza. Gaza has their own electric plants.
Israel does not control physical access to gaza as they do not control the Gaza/Egypt border.
In any case no country including Israel is obligated to keep its own borders open to anyone or provide anything to anyone. Israel has every right to control what passes through its border in or out, especially a border with someone they are in a conflict with. They have in fact done, provided and allowed far more than is required of them in all the above areas and in others as well.
Considering when Israel left Gaza the attacks multiplied into the thousands and thousands they have every right to take even far more steps than they have to stop the attacks. They have been far more lenient than just about anyone has or would be in their position.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)In response to your assertions about control, and in order:
water:
http://www.seamac.org/equalrights.htm
electricity:
http://opiniojuris.org/2014/07/26/can-israel-cut-water-power-gaza/
from the above citation:
Israel and Gaza are not equal sovereign entities. Israel has controlled Gaza for decades, which resulted in significant dependence on Israeli infrastructure. Even after the disengagement, it still holds certain powers over the population in Gaza – including by its control over essential infrastructure. Since Israel does not allow, de facto, the development of independent infrastructure in Gaza, it cannot completely deny the responsibility to provide these essential supplies. Therefore, the interpretation suggested in the Opinion does not reflect a proper balance between the different objectives of IHL – even when considering the special challenges of asymmetric warfare. Chiefly, this is because it results in a legal “black hole” which deprives the civilian population of the effective protection of international law.
physical access to Gaza:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/31/gaza-borders_n_5630811.html
Uncritical defenders of Israeli war crimes will continue to ignore facts in their quest to paint Israel as the eternal victim in this struggle, but ignoring reality will not make it go away, nor will it solve the continuing problem.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)snip* Is it true to say, as Richard Goldstone has argued, that there is no basis for likening Israel's occupation of the OPT to that of apartheid? Is it true, as he argues, that such suggestions are "pernicious" and "inaccurate"? Or is there substance in these suggestions?
Of course, the regimes of apartheid and occupation are different. Apartheid South Africa was a state that practiced discrimination against its own people. It sought to fragment the country into white South Africa and black Bantustans. Its security laws were used to brutally suppress opposition to apartheid. Israel, on the other hand, is an occupying power that controls a foreign territory and its people under a regime recognised by international law - belligerent occupation.
However, in practice, there is little difference. Both regimes were/are characterised by discrimination, repression and territorial fragmentation (that is, land seizures).
Israel discriminates against Palestinians in the West Bank and East Jerusalem in favour of half a million Israeli settlers. Its restrictions on freedom of movement, manifested in countless humiliating checkpoints, resemble the "pass laws" of apartheid. Its destruction of Palestinian homes resemble the destruction of homes belonging to blacks under apartheid's Group Areas Act. The confiscation of Palestinian farms under the pretext of building a security wall brings back similar memories. And so on. Indeed, Israel has gone beyond apartheid South Africa in constructing separate (and unequal) roads for Palestinians and settlers.
Apartheid's security police practiced torture on a large scale. So do the Israeli security forces. There were many political prisoners on Robben Island but there are more Palestinian political prisoners in Israeli jails.
Apartheid South Africa seized the land of blacks for whites. Israel has seized the land of Palestinians for half a million settlers and for the purposes of constructing a security wall within Palestinian territory - both of which are contrary to international law.
Most South Africans who visit the West Bank are struck by the similarities between apartheid and Israel's practices there. There is sufficient evidence for the Russell Tribunal to conduct a legitimate enquiry into the question whether Israel violates the prohibition of apartheid found in the 1973 Apartheid Convention and the Rome Statute.
John Dugard is a professor of international law, who authored a comprehensive study of the law of apartheid (Human Rights and the South African Legal Order (1978)) and was for seven years (2001 – 2008) Special Rapporteur to the UN Human Rights Council on the human rights situation in the Occupied Palestinian Territory.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/11/201111395153781378.html
android fan
(214 posts)Here's why:
1) It broadcasts from Qatar, the same country where it hosted the leader of Hamas for quite a long time, and lavishly, I hear.
2) The emir of Qatar is pro-Hamas and gives them shitloads of terroristic dollars to "rebuild" Gaza which really meant rise up again and destroy Israel.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Enjoy your stay.
android fan
(214 posts)Look, all I'm saying is that while I'm not happy Bibi won, it's just annoys the heck out of me when people are uninformed WRT Israel, and favoring dangerous characters that promotes destruction of Israel.
I'm done with the I/P forum for now.
FBaggins
(28,706 posts)It's either Fox or a national news outlet for a pro-Palestinian state?
No room for anything in between?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)and has been published throughout academia and respected internationally. You can find
his opinion on a more sanitized website, since this one gives you such pause.
Regardless of your absurd claims, Israel is stuck with the label based on what they do and
to whom they do it. Your nonsensical rebuttals won't change anything.
Enjoy your stay on DU, Israeli policy has its supporters here..albeit a small percent.
FBaggins
(28,706 posts)Where it was published in this case is merely additional evidence of that bias... not that any has been needed for many years.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)published, will not change anything.There is a wealth of opinion that holds apartheid to be an
appropriate label..you'll need to come up with a better defense than Al Jazerra is biased, they
did not write it.
You and others with your defense of Israeli policy may wish to consider why even
Kerry has used that word..danced around it a little, but not much. That Israel
has in the US their strongest ally and the SoS uses the word..good luck with credibility
when denying it.
FBaggins
(28,706 posts)Just because you agree with the guy doesn't suddenly make him unbiased.
http://www.unwatch.org/site/apps/nl/content2.asp?c=bdKKISNqEmG&b=1317481&ct=2753615
There is a wealth of opinion that holds apartheid to be an appropriate label..
And a more rational body of opinion that thinks that's nonsense... just like the similarly nonsensical claims of "genocide".
You and others with your defense of Israeli policy may wish to consider why even
Kerry has used that word..danced around it a little, but not much.
And you and others with your defense of Hamas may wish to consider why most Democrats still support Israel.
Kerry has used that word..danced around it a little, but not much.
Dancing around it a little? You're referring to last year when he came right out and admitted that he used the wrong word? When the Democratic Secretary of State (and former head of the party) says the word is "best left out of the debate here at home"... you keep using it because... ?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)is your choice..that is what keeps the vigil alive for denying an apartheid label.
You imagine he has no sense of politics when he said, If I could erase the tape..lol.
Well, he can't..so as I said, good luck.
Noam Chomsky: What Israel’s Doing Is ‘Much Worse’ than Apartheid
by Josh Feldman | 12:49 pm, August 12th, 2014
http://www.mediaite.com/online/noam-chomsky-what-israels-doing-is-much-worse-than-apartheid/
One needs only to look at Israeli policy to see how it applies and I suggest to you to
peruse B'Tselem and other human rights groups..it is an absurd notion to deny the label.
You really don't need Dugard, Chomsky nor anyone else..but they are serious individuals
who should not be dismissed. Taking the time to read Israeli policy is all that is necessary.
Accountability
Area C
Planning and building
Settlements
The Gaza Strip
Use of fire arms
Beating & abuse
Attacks on Israeli civilians by Palestinians
Violence by settlers
Separation Barrier
East Jerusalem
Demonstrations
more: http://www.btselem.org/
The major problem UN Watch has is they do not criticize Israeli policy, they may be a good
fit for staunch Israeli policy people.
Despite efforts to paint itself as an independent watchdog group, UN Watch has repeatedly been accused of having a staunchly "pro-Israel" bias and on outlook on Middle East peace that is closely in line with that of Israel's right-wing Likud Party. For many years, the group was funded by the American Jewish Committee (AJC)—publisher of the neoconservative flagship journal Commentary, whose editors have included Norman Podhoretz and Irving Kristol—which has made use of its offices in Geneva, as well as those of other affiliated groups, including the Transatlantic Institute in Brussels.[2] - See more at: http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/UN_Watch#sthash.d2Cl8Ajx.dpuf
And yes, I am serious..absolutely.
FBaggins
(28,706 posts)Barbara Boxer - "... any linkage between Israel and apartheid is nonsensical and ridiculous"
From reporting at the time - the State Department's position was clear.
While not confirming whether Kerry warned that Israel could become an apartheid state, she said: "The secretary does not believe and did not state publicly or privately that Israel is an apartheid state, and there's an important difference there."
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)FBaggins
(28,706 posts)Tell me... will President Clinton/Sanders/Warren change the US position closer to your preference?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)attempt to support Israeli policies. If Israeli policies were in the best interests
of the US, Israel would not need such a heavily funded lobby. Much like the
NRA and other lobby groups, they could never cut it based on the merits
of their policies.
Enjoy the success of lobbies, one day Americans may decide they will fight
for public funded elections. Obama is already pushing back on neocon foreign
policy regarding Iran..I wonder how many supporters of Israeli apartheid would
vote for Bernie Sanders who wants to end all lobby money abilities in
our election process.
FBaggins
(28,706 posts)It's a reminder that you're dead wrong if you think that yours is the majority position (or anywhere close).
If Israeli policies were in the best interests of the US, Israel would not need such a heavily funded lobby.
Was that supposed to make sense? Do we need to reconsider pro-worker policies because the unions wouldn't need to provide so much support if their positions were really in our best interest?
I wonder how many supporters of Israeli apartheid would vote for Bernie Sanders who wants to end all lobby money abilities in our election process.
You missed how you just destroyed your own position... didn't you?
How is the "heavily funded lobby" buying Sanders' support if he's wants to end all lobby money?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)elections in his state and his platform. Anti Union people/corporations are the ones
that are heavily funded..that is who succeeds. You're a very confused person, I think.
bobalew
(439 posts)Not worth the time to read you, sorry... Have a Good Day Sir!
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)•About 1.2 million Palestinian Israelis, who make up 20 percent, or one-fifth, of Israel’s population, have second-class citizenship within Israel, which defines itself as a Jewish state rather than a state for all its citizens. More than 20 provisions of Israel’s principal laws discriminate, either directly or indirectly, against non-Jews, according to Adalah: The Legal Center for Minority Rights in Israel.
If you want more information, or to explore yourself, check out the link below:
http://www.adalah.org/en/content/view/7771
I hope this helps you out.
Bragi
(7,650 posts)
sabbat hunter
(7,110 posts)have the same rights as any other citizen of Israel. It is Arabs living on the West Bank that do not have Israeli citizenship that is the problem.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)and tell me you still believe that
sabbat hunter
(7,110 posts)are proposed bills not actual laws. Also it is only in their opinion that are discriminatory and IMHO in many cases they are wrong.
For example raising the % vote needed to get in to Knesset. That is not discriminatory in the least. In fact, this election, by combining forces, the JAL is the third biggest party in Knesset. Much better when they were splintered. a higher % vote should help reduce splintering. A splinter of Shas failed to get in, and under the old rules they would have gotten in. the new JAL party got almost 11% of the vote. Arabs make up 20% of the population of Israel. There are lots of Arab Israelis that do not vote for the Arab parties, but instead for Labor mainly.
sabbat hunter
(7,110 posts)needs to either let a true Palestine form in the West Bank or grant everyone living there full Israeli citizenship, including representation in Knesset.
Until that happens, there will be calls of apartheid due to the fact that Israel occupies the WB and does not allow Palestinians living in areas under their control citizenship or the right to vote in Israeli elections.
Something has to give. Either Israel grants everyone living in the WB Israeli citizenship, or allows a Palestinian state to form.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)or the fragmented, waterless scraps of land not currently occupied by illegal settlements?
Plus the matter of Jerusalem.
And the right of return for Palestinians driven out by Israeli violence.
What real incentive do the Israelis have to return land that they have occupied for 48 years with no real hardship to them?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Are you a sock for somebody on time out?
Lithos
(26,638 posts)Not based on a recent news article or op-ed article