Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumHamas: Kidnap Israeli soldiers
GAZA, May 15 (UPI) -- The Palestinian militant group Hamas Tuesday called for the abduction of Israeli soldiers to use as bargaining chips for prisoner swaps.
The Ma'an news agency quoted Hammad al-Ruqab, the Hamas district spokesman in Khan Yunis, as urging the kidnappings "whatever the cost." In particular, al-Ruqab said the al-Qassam Brigades, the military wing of Hamas, should step up the kidnapping efforts.
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2012/05/15/Hamas-Kidnap-Israeli-soldiers/UPI-65711337100795/#ixzz1v2Da8mz8
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jimmie
(318 posts)Hamas will stoop to any level of depravity.
Violet_Crumble
(36,385 posts)There's nothing depraved about one party in a conflict thinking it'd be a good idea to kidnap combatants to use as bargaining chips. They're combatants, not civilians.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)it IS a war crime.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)Alamuti Lotus
(3,093 posts)Hamas: talks about it
IOF: does it regularly
Hmm... yes, the former is certainly a bigger deal.
henank
(800 posts)Such a body does not exist.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)People like to make up their own names of things when it comes to Israel.
Alamuti Lotus
(3,093 posts)and yet still completely leave the main point unaddressed. Don't be coy, you all know very well precisely who I am referring to. The truth is, you don't have a problem with taking hostages, but it is very important on who the hostage-takers are: particularly as relates the language used in descriptions of events. The occupation forces call their kidnappings "arrests"; their torture is called "interrogation" or "rendition"; ad infinitum. It's a big public relations thing, perception and spin control--I get it...but I also see through it.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)And all interrogation, torture.
Also a kind of public relations thing, perception and spin control.
If you can't even bring yourself to refer to the Israeli army by its given name, how can you be expected to view these things in any other way.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)Come on, say it... you know you want to.
Alamuti Lotus
(3,093 posts)those Saintluciabastards think they can occupy the Lesser Antilles and get a free pass? My ass, they will.
On an equally serious note, what is the deal here? Coy is not in fashion, it is a fish. Do you think I cannot write "Israel"? This is a bizarre exchange, even for these parts.
For the benefit of the rather intentionally dense: ISRAELI OCCUPATION FORCES. Armed forces of the Nation of Israel which occupy neighboring lands, routinely shooting, kidnapping, and bombing individuals and property in aforementioned occupied lands. I fully understand that there are certain points to be made by 'scoring points' on various matters, but what's the deal? Is any of this new information to you? Is there some merit badge to be earned by pretending that such things do not exist, or are not as they are? The approach is rather akin to falling limp as another intends to drag you away; effective at stalling in applicable situations, but a really bizarre approach to take when there is actually no dragging involved.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)Now, for the big money -- what is the traditionally accepted name for the defence forces of Israel? I will accept the Hebrew or English.
Alamuti Lotus
(3,093 posts)Although I have personally always objected to the description of national war departments as "defense" agencies. Observe my behavior long enough and you will find this to be a universal tendency in my lexicon with reference to the activities of most nations; your little pet does not occupy a special place in my heart in this case, except in the sense that we are currently referencing specifically them.
אתייחס אליהם עם כל הדברים שאני רוצה
Violet_Crumble
(36,385 posts)Or even 'Is' if we're too lazy to type out entire words 
Alamuti Lotus
(3,093 posts)which might be a sequence I have been known to utter on various occasions (probably even recently), I find it to be too clunky phrasing for common usage. The emotional red flags it drags along behind are of minor concern to me (and usually produces an amusing bull-shitter's charging, anyway):--my own conception of smooth phrasing is paramount to my presentation.
Violet_Crumble
(36,385 posts)All designed to kick off a supercharged torrent of outrage that starts to convince onlookers that the conflict isn't about territory or fighting, but it's about the use of words and what words offends who...
Alamuti Lotus
(3,093 posts)LOL
Violet_Crumble
(36,385 posts)It's a term used by NGO's and there's nothing creepy or antisemitic about it, which is the impression I'm getting that you and others are trying to make out.
Israel is occupying the West Bank, despite the attempts by some 'supporters' of Israel to insist otherwise, and when referring to the IDF in relation to what it does in the West Bank, it's quite reasonable to refer to it as an occupation force, as that's exactly what it is...
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)Zionist Occupied Government or ZOG to describe the United States. I see a theme here.
Alamuti Lotus
(3,093 posts)I mean, there is an acronym involved in both, so it is indeed precisely the same thing. What brilliance to have made this connection where so many other bright minds had failed before!
Violet_Crumble
(36,385 posts)You really need to stop this. It's pathetic. There's nothing antisemitic about referring to Israel as an occupying force, hence IOF when it operates in territory it occupies. Gosh, I hope pointing that out hasn't got you reading 'zionist entity! ZOG!' etc into it!
Alamuti Lotus
(3,093 posts)that was the first context I ever saw it used in, and the combined sympathetic efforts of Stormfront and Zionists (not-so-strange bedfellows) have equally failed to sway me otherwise. Weird.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Last edited Fri May 18, 2012, 11:37 PM - Edit history (1)
I am saying its a made-up term used by people with a particular POV with respect to Israel, as with Zionist entity.
Hamas shoots rockets at Israelis and has launched deliberate attacks on civilians, but Israel still calls them by their chosen name of Hamas.
The IDF is the name of the Israeli armed forces. One can be as critical as one likes of them, but calling it by a different made-up name is akin to calling Hamas the Shoot At Civilians Brigade.
Incidentally, no claim is being made by me about anything to do with antisemitism, and I would appreciate it if such an accusation is not suggested where none exists.
Violet_Crumble
(36,385 posts)Which it isn't. As you knew what it stands for, it would have made sense to have explained what it meant...
I oppose the occupation, and that's the POV that has me referring to the IDF as the IOF when it operates in the Occupied Territories. As every term is made up at some point, all the wailing and carrying on about this one is really quite silly. If it was derogatory, I'd understand, but this isn't...
Incidentally, I'm not going to stop being honest and saying what my impression is of something if I have one. And that was my impression. If you can't see that there have been attempts in this thread by one person in particular to paint the acronym as antisemitic, I'm not sure why...
Alamuti Lotus
(3,093 posts)What is more important: thought or action? Intention or result? This is a time-honoured concept that deserves adequate attention in this highly appropriate context; instead, I am compelled to act as a fucking speak-and-spell just to get anywhere.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... you would have saved by not insisting on using pejorative language. Something to remember in the future.
Alamuti Lotus
(3,093 posts)Red flags before bulls, you know. A creature besides a bull trained for show might know better than to react with blind instinct towards the offending colour, but certain creatures know no better and will react precisely as the matador expects. Would the reaction have been any different otherwise?--your humble narrator doubts it, except in possible case of abject avoidance.
And I might add: the concept has still been sidestepped entirely at every single step, which is almost remarkable even to me.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)To me, you not only derailed your concept -- but you quickly identified yourself, at least in my mind, I won't speak for other, as someone whom cannot discuss this topic with any semblance of balance. I particularly liked the less than subtle "Zionists equal Nazis" dig you made further up on which I chose not to comment, at the time.
There are those in this group to whom this will never been a two-sided discussion. Those who believe, no matter what, Israel is always in the wrong and it makes it convenient when they identify themselves quickly and don't pretend to be other.
If you had chosen to discuss this without the flame-baiting, you might have been surprised by my thoughts on the subject. But, we'll never know now, will we?
Alamuti Lotus
(3,093 posts)I must've missed that. Particularly strange, since I am alleged to be its author..
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... here you are. Excerpt from your Post #21
"...the combined sympathetic efforts of Stormfront and Zionists (not-so-strange bedfellows)"
Stormfront, as you know is a neo-Nazi organization. Saying they are practically or philosophically aligned with Zionists is, as you are fully aware, equating Zionism with Nazi-ism.
But, I'm almost breathless with anticipation to hear how you are going to claim that isn't what you meant.
Alamuti Lotus
(3,093 posts)In an oblique sense, I was indeed implying that there are certain tendencies in common between the two disunited fronts, certain habits of one unfortunately remind me of the other on occasions, and I really want little if anything to do with either. However, the primary intention in that statement was mostly that it's basically just you guys promoting that idea; it doesn't do a thing for me, you and David Duke are free to it. And oh yeah, a hearty fuck you for the baseless implication.
However, no points for effort: this is hardly a "Zionists equal Nazis" sort of remark. If you really want to see that, keep your eyes peeled on the Nasrallah thread in a few days; composing a potential posting at the moment (might lose interest in it, so this reference may have to do) where I compare Israel's Khiam occupation prison to Dachau. Now that fits the bill. I've seen both with my own eyes (Khiam at personal invitation shortly after it was liberated by the resistance, Dachau a few months after on my way back home through Europe), and unfortunate comparisons abounded.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)Alamuti Lotus
(3,093 posts)The refreshing honesty (usually with an obnoxious dose of sarcasm) I already have on the table, in exchange for your thoughts on the original concept: thought or action? Intention or result? Some idiot spouting off to a reporter, or routine army policy? What gets your motor revving higher?
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)Outing bigots
Alamuti Lotus
(3,093 posts)but the write-in candidate will be considered; good luck with that, it is indeed a noble pursuit.
On another note, I have a bad feeling that this has already ceased to be productive and/or interesting, so do not be too terribly offended if you notice that I have lost interest in this particular line of discussion. Another time, I'm sure.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)Violet_Crumble
(36,385 posts)Here's a few suggestions for how to 'out bigots'.
1. Learn to understand that criticising Israel is NOT antisemitic. Nor is calling the IDF the IOF when it's operating in the Occupied Territories.
2. Try to voice at least a tiny bit of objection to anti-Muslim/Arab bigotry when it appears. Otherwise it just looks like yr not outing bigots at all...
3. Stop referring to the Palestinians as Pals or the Palestinian state as the Pal state. The term 'Pal' is a derogatory reference. Where I come from the Lebanese are referred to by bigots as Lebs, and if there were a lot of Palestinians here, they'd be calling them Pals too...
Go get them bigots, tigger!! 
shira
(30,109 posts)...that will eliminate the Zionist entity altogether and make life more wonderful than ever before for everyone within the green line. Like Utopia, but even better than that!
It means so much to me personally when someone who wishes Israel dead criticizes the state. I can then take everything they have to say about the hated Jewish state seriously.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... that's untrue, there are never a lot of people here ... but some people here are four-square in favour of the one-state solution (a state that will eventually contain no Jews). But, it is very rare, almost refreshingly rare, when someone comes out and clearly states they want to see Israel gone, rather than obfuscating with the idea that they support two-states as a staged initiative (with the unspoken, yet implied goal of the eventual destruction of Israel.
Alamuti Lotus
(3,093 posts)Or made any such statements?
Considering such a disreputable source as yourself, I'm going to have to insist on direct quotations and post citations. I am not aware of any such occasion where I had so poignantly expressed remotely similar remarks. I rarely offer thoughts or speculations on what the future should hold; dealing with the present is important enough business, I feel. They may indeed be beliefs held by your humble narrator, or maybe not, but you will have to make some effort to show proof of your assertions, or the honorable thing to do would be to withdraw them.
Alamuti Lotus
(3,093 posts)I tried to stop them, but they insist..
The truth may or may not be far from the case, and it's not like I deem such claims to be too terribly damning anyway; but I am quite certain that given the information at your disposal, you are indeed just fabricating whatever you think constitutes a smear, and badly at that. Please excuse me, busy now looking up antonyms for 'refreshing'.....
shira
(30,109 posts)Your support of Hezbollah should in itself be enough evidence you're against 2 states. They want Israel dead, yesterday. They're quite clear about that and not at all ashamed or embarrassed to admit it. Imagine what they'd think of you for daring to support the Zionist entity? You wouldn't want to upset them, right?
But you asked for proof. That's fine....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x350073#350329
You're for RoR (posts 40 and 87). I can only assume you're for the same RoR that Hezbollah advocates for. As in full RoR that turns Israel automatically into an Arab majority nation. Anything less would be an insult, would it not?
You also made it quite clear in #86 that you "never at any point claimed to be in any "peace" camp." Well hell, neither does Hezbollah claim that. If neither you or Hezbollah is in the peace camp, then what other cool and awesome camp could you possibly be in?
You hate the Saudis so you're against the Arab Peace plan, right? It's not as if you support any other 2 state peace plan. After all you're not in any "peace" camp. So what kind of 2 state solution do you envision that will do nothing for the interest of peace?
Alamuti Lotus
(3,093 posts)I hereby certify you an expert on my inner dialogue, and delegated accordingly to speak for me in my absence, or even in my presence; on most subjects, that certification will allow your interpretation of my thoughts to trump my own, though there are exceptions. It's been fun, TTFN.
Much appreciated, however, in an oblique way -- I forgot about that avatar I used to use at DU2, I must clear the path for its return here; until then, Brain tries to take over the world.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)perhaps a 'new' career is in order something like Hasbar- psychics complete with a 900 number?
shira
(30,109 posts)...of Hezbollah is really all about. Or how you view RoR (full or partial). Or if you're not in the peace camp, where are you...
Violet_Crumble
(36,385 posts)I did get a laugh out of the bit where they claim to have seen some Zionists equals Nazi dig and not comment on it when they saw it. This from someone who seems convinced that all acronyms are anti-semitic seeing as how there might be one or two that are...
I just found the thread where they accused me of comparing Israel demolishing solar panels in the West Bank to the Holocaust, which of course I hadn't done at all.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/11345159#post22
shira
(30,109 posts)....laughing it up with anti-zionists and Israel haters while mocking genuine supporters of the 2 state solution.
Gee, I personally cannot fathom why I'd question your support for a real 2 state solution that would end the conflict. Something's obviously wrong with me.
Violet_Crumble
(36,385 posts)Being a genuine supporter of the two state solution, I wasn't aware that I was mocking anyone for it. In fact, you must be in the wrong thread, coz this thread's got nothing to do with the two state solution, so maybe you should take yr mocking of this supporter of a two state solution somewhere else? Or even better, give it a rest?
Oh, and I noticed you don't seem to have any objection to the way holdencaufield has been making false and ugly accusations about other DUers. Which is what the post you were replying to was about. Maybe you should try reading posts before you hit reply? Otherwise it just looks like yr just annoyed that anyone dare point out what the poster's doing and trying very clumsily to go all diversionary...
Violet_Crumble
(36,385 posts)And making out the word 'occupation' is a pejorative is so lame and weak it doesn't even qualify as an excuse...
So, let's help you get ontrack. Do you think it's wrong when the IOF kidnaps Palestinians? Or is it only wrong when Palestinians do it?
Violet_Crumble
(36,385 posts)...but it's a whole different ball game if the Palestinians do it. Then it becomes 'depraved'.