I am not looking forward to this falls election

[FreeState]

Im a very political person but this fall might just be too much for me.

I was raised LDS, my whole family is still members (except me). They live in WA State where its likely Marriage will be on the ballot box. The combination of Romney and Marriage in one election might just put me over the edge if I get too invested.

Even the Romney threads here drive me nuts (talking about DU in general not LGBT Group). Mainly because they are full of half truths or issues that have zero to do with the race for the President. I've tried when I can to educate, but most don't want to learn, they would rather spread innuendo and falsehoods, some even stating that they don't care if its true or not, as long as it helps defeat Romney.It saddens me because it pushes away LDS people who are open to voting for Democrats as well reminding me of how hard it is as a gay person to get others to understand you. Just look at all the post saying Romney was a Bishop so he can't be trusted. Even when its pointed out that the term Bishop or Stake President isn't what they think it is (both are very local positions with very little authority, nothing like a Catholic Bishop etc.) It's just frustrating. I don't believe in the church at all but that doesn't mean I want to look the other way when falsehoods and innuendo are spread all over the place.

As far as WA States marriage amendment goes it will be interesting. I've been informed by a couple family members that a letter was read in at least one of my siblings congregations saying the Church was staying out of it this time - that they won't be asking for money or support. Ill believe it when I see it, but Im hopeful that the Church will stay out of the election. My families decided on the issue and it would literally tear them apart.

Okay end of rant. Deep breath....

[murielm99]

1. I understand.

You should speak up when people make uninformed statements about LDS. There used to be LDS people, current and former, who did that here. They did it especially when people brought up magic underwear. For one thing, they pointed out all the illogical things that other faiths embrace.

DU has a very anti-religious membership who are quite vocal and raucous. I have a strong suspicion that the majority here are Christian, but they are afraid to speak up.

I am not LDS, but you have a right to defend the faith you were raised in. When you do defend LDS here, please be sure to point out that some LDS members might vote for our guys if we can tone it down a bit.

[FreeState]

3. Thanks for the suggestion

I should try, it just gets a little depressing. Your right too, many of my family members are LDS Republicans that voted for Obama last time (and I can almost guarantee you they would not this time around if they were to read some of the threads here and think all Democrats think like that).

Your right that DU has a very strong anti-religious streak (although I think its more like anti-establishment, hurt feelings from past experiences, fear of the unknown etc. There are a lot of people here who don't knock religion though - seems its a loud outspoken minority that do.)

[murielm99]

6. I have to admit that I don't always defend

Christianity, or some of the New Age beliefs I embrace. Sometimes it just takes too much effort. But I don't argue with everyone in the I/P or gun forums, either. I don't get involved in every controversy. Who would want to do that?

[FreeState]

7. it would take a lot of energy and time to try and do that!

I tried to just pick out the most obvious stuff when I saw it, and usually just gave up after realizing it fell on deaf ears.

[Politicalboi]

2. Prop 8 is not a way to make friends

And, we allow religion to rule the day here in America. Whether we like it or not, we are considered a "christian nation" And that is wrong. Some of us are tired of religion having a strong voice in politics. A world where priests can molest children, and the church hides them, and defends them. Religion is scary. I don't want laws catering to ANY religion. Rmoney is against gay marriage, so I am against him. These bigots invoke god all the time as their reason. It's the religious bunch that is to blame for the anger. They are infringing on MY life with their own version of voodoo.

[FreeState]

5. I agree with most of what you have said

Believe me as a gay former Mormon I have had my fair share of having to process anger and resentment. That being said, some of the stuff that is brought up in discussions is false or at worst bigotry. I am also against Romney and people should point out his religious beliefs in regards to where they influence policy 100% (marriage for example). What Im talking about is issues that have absolutely zero to do with policy (for example how his adult children conceive children, his wearing of religious garments, not drinking beer, whether he is a Christian or not... the list goes on and on.)

There are good and bad people in every group, and that includes the Mormon Church. I think we do ourselves as the gay community and Democrats a big disservice when we stereotype others or belittle them rather than reach out and try to understand. I've seen my own family come to support democrats and LGBT rights and it was through understanding and education.

Most of my LDS family would agree with you that the Prop 8 campaign by some of the church was wrong and misinformed. (Only members in CA, Utah and AR were asked to give money by the way, there are way more members who were not asked and many who would have refused. I think its important to put the claim on the Church Hierarchy and those that did support it - including Romney - rather than all Mormons)

[Rowdyboy]

4. I can totally understand your frustration.....in the 1970's when I was in college my political hero

was Mo Udall. I idolized the man and had tremendous respect for him both personally and professionally. While I never met him, I have a friend who knew him well and affirmed my impression of him. It was only years after he died that I learned he was a practicing Morman. When he ran for president in 1976 a candidates religion really wasn't particularly highlighted except for Jimmy Carter as a "born-again" Baptist. It was only after the rise of the Christian conservatives in the late 1970's that politics really started to go to hell.

Hang in there. We'll all live through it but it is going to be a long, nasty, miserable campaign.

[longship]

8. Every Mormon I've known personally has been a good person

I grew up in MI and am old enough to remember George Romney's darkhorse candidacy for POTUS. I liked him, too, as did many Michiganders. I liked Mo Udall and others in his family, all good people. Harry Reid is still on my good list. (He's a former Golden Gloves which makes him perfect as Sen. majority leader. He knows the Rope-A-Dope.)

But the Prop 8 debacle in CA -- I lived east of LA -- spoiled everything I thought about Mormons. What they did there was petty and childish.

Another story about the Mormons. The contribute tons of bucks to the Boy Scouts of America. I was an Eagle scout in the early 60's. I am an atheist. If I was a kid today, I could not be a boy scout. If I was gay, I couldn't either. Here's the deal. I know that when I was a teen there were plenty of gays in BSA.

But because of Mormon support for BSA, combined with their intolerance, the've ruined what I knew as a kid as a good organization.

And then, there's the spawn of George Romney and everything they've done politically in recent years. They're acting like a fucking cult. And George's spawn is acting like he's entitled to the Presidency because of his wealth.

Fuck Mitt. And don't get me started about today's Mormons.

[Zorra]

9. I had no serious beefs with the Mormon Church until Prop 8.

Prop 8 was a mean, hateful act that hurt friends of mine, hurt my community, and hurt my country. There was no love anywhere to be found in Proposition 8.

Because of Prop 8, I will never be able to give the Mormon Church a pass. I will never trust it, and I do not ever want a Mormon POTUS. I feel that the Mormon Church is dishonest, and is a powerful entity that is a deadly threat to every LGBT person in the world.

That said, I do not equate all individual Mormons with the Mormon Church, although I don't really know any practicing Mormons personally, but have a few awesome ex-Mormon friends, and I had a few really fun long nights of drinking, jamming and talking religion with Jerry Joseph down in Oaxaca several years ago. (Jerry may not have been the best source for unbiased explanations and descriptions of Mormon doctrine and practice .). These experiences may have given me the wrong impression of the Mormon Church for sure; but ex-Mormons seem to really rock.

Anyway, in your post, you speak of half truths, innuendo, and falsehoods. I sincerely want to be educated as to what these half truths, innuendo, and falsehoods are, specifically, and was hoping that you wouldn't mind naming them (specifically) so that I (we) can eliminate them from our criticisms of Mitt Romney and the Mormon Church. I don't want to spread BS and would appreciate your help, if you have the time and inclination.

Is this following passage accurate, in your opinion? This is my most basic understanding of Mormonism; if it is inaccurate, I really want to know.

Sources of authority

The theology of the LDS Church consists of a combination of biblical doctrines with modern revelations and other commentary by LDS leaders, particularly Joseph Smith, Jr. The most authoritative sources of theology are the faith's canon of four religious texts, called the Standard Works. Included in the Standard Works are the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. Among these books, the church holds in equal esteem as the other Standard Works the Book of Mormon, said by the church to be "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" that Joseph Smith translated from buried golden plates. The LDS church believes the Angel Moroni told the Prophet Joseph Smith about these golden plates and would receive them to translate them for a marvelous work and a wonder for the Lord. The church believes that this Angel Moroni is the same angel spoken of in the Bible in Revelations 14:6. The church characterizes the Book of Mormon as "the most correct of any book on earth and the keystone of [their] religion".[59]

Thanks!

[FreeState]

10. Sure!

That passage seems correct. The only thing I would say is slightly misleading is that theology in the church, official doctorine if you will, is not based on commentary of leaders (with some confusing weirdness of Church magazines which are not cannon but sometimes articles in them are treated as doctrinal - atleast until it is either outdated or the church official has died and a new policy replaces the statement in the article).

[Zorra]

11. Thanks. And what are the

half truths, innuendo, and falsehoods you refer to in the OP?

[FreeState]

15. Heres a few

I really don't have time to list them all (and yes there have been that many):

None of these are true:

The first black member was baptized in 1978
The first black member was ordained to the priesthood in 1978
Mitt says there is not history of sexism or racism in the church in 300 years
Mitt was a bishop which is comparable to a Catholic Bishop
Romney is still a Bishop in the Mormon church!!
Mormons believe they get a planet in the next life
Mormons don't believe in the Bible
Members participating in the Mormon Temple ceremonies are asked to take a blood vow, stating "I will suffer my life to be taken" while slashing their finger across their throat if they ever go against the Mormon church.
Joseph Smith had a supposed vision (prophecy) that one day a Mormon would become President of the United States, FOR THE EXPRESS PURPOSE, of letting the Mormon Church take over the U.S. Government.
The LDS Church is shrouded in secrecy
Garments protect the wearer from harm
The LDS uses "bishops" because they're too cheap to pay church leaders
LDS Church gave money to help pass Amendent One in NC (I can't find documentation of this)
The LDS Church broke the law by supporting prop8
The LDS elders would have no problem outlawing your religion if they could.
Mormons believe they should be above the law


These are half true:
Mormons funded the prop8 campaign
The Mormon Church funded the prop8 campaign
Smith prophesied that if the U.S. Congress did not accede to his demands that "they shall be broken up as a government and God shall damn them."

I could spend a good hour finding more examples but quite frankly there is so much bias and miss information in threads dealing with Mormonism on DU I don't have the time or desire to dredge up every sing one.

[Zorra]

17. Thanks. When was the first black member of the Church baptized?

You say that this: The first black member was baptized in 1978 is not true.

Then when was the first black member of the Church baptized, if it was not in 1978?

[FreeState]

18. 1830 - there have always been black members

There has never been a ban on baptism of any race. In the begining blacks held the priesthood too. Brougham Young was a racist pig that changed the church drastically from what Joseph Smith had envisioned and it was durring his time as President that things became more racist, sexist and homophobic.

http://www.mormonheretic.org/2012/01/16/the-first-black-mormon-leader-pete/

[RetiredTrotskyite]

12. A HUGE Blessed Be to That

I have become tired of Mormons and their meddling in politics. Prop H8 and "8: The Mormon Proposition" did it for me. I say to those Mormons who are suppportive of us or who don't believe in mixing their religion with politics, speak out. Not enough do. I say the same thing to progressive Christians. They are are getting overshadowed by the jerks amongst their co-religionists.

[mitchtv]

13. you hit the nail on the head

they have abdicated their pulpits in favor of fundamentalist know nothings

[FreeState]

16. Links for you (Mormons for Marriage)

http://mormonsformarriage.com/

Mormons who fear Mitt: http://www.salon.com/2012/04/27/mormons_who_fear_mitt/singleton/

Not enough taking a stand?:

http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top_stories/story/Number-of-faithful-Mormons-rapidly-declining/rvih3gOKxEm5om9IYJYnRA.cspx

Number of faithful Mormons rapidly declining

SALT LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is losing a record number of its membership. A new report quotes an LDS general authority who said more members are falling away today than any time in the past 175 years.

At meetings like General Conference, Utahns may be used to seeing members of the LDS Church show up in record numbers. But according to a recent Reuters article citing LDS General Authority Marlin K. Jensen, for the church as a whole, the record in going in a different direction.

Elder Jensen told the news outlet times have changed, and "attrition has accelerated in the last five or 10 years." Some church members ABC 4 talked to said they see the faithful leaving.

"I'm from Chile and a lot of people just stop attending, they take it a little bit too casual," said Francisco Jerez, LDS Church member.

(Every member I have talked to knows several members who have left over Prop 8 in addition to others that have gone inactive).

[Creideiki]

14. My serious beefs with the LDS church started with Hawaii

If the LDS Church Establishment hadn't seen kicking a more disenfanchised group in the nuts repeatedly as a way to gain them friends in the conservative Christian community, Prop 8 wouldn't have been an issue because it wouldn't have happened.

Instead, the LDS Church Establishment chose to attempt to manipulate public opinion by proving that they could hate gays just as much as anyone else.