LGBT
Related: About this forumThe whole Uganda tiny url thing very much bothers me
It is literally unthinkable that at the height of Apartheid the publisher of a liberal newspaper would have advocated buying ink from South Africa. Yet here we had the administrator of a liberal website advocating and implementing a scheme where we directly benefited the government of Uganda so we could have tiny url's.
As much as it might feel good for us to blame Skinner and only Skinner for this, the fact is Uganda's deathly treatment of gays isn't nearly the cause celeb that Apartheid was in the 1980's. This reminds me of when I told some friends of mine is Mississippi that I was gay but didn't want the wider public to know since I could be fired. These were recent graduates from great colleges and literally all of them thought, in 1995, that it was against federal law to fire gays. The fact is we haven't educated the public enough about Uganda if even the admin of a liberal site was willing to deal with this government for the sake of a convenience feature.
The fact that in the end we got a good result shouldn't make us complacent about the fact that even among liberals Uganda has yet to become the international pariah that it should be. The fact is Uganda should be considered today every bit as evil as South Africa was in the mid and late 1980's. It should be absolutely unthinkable for any person running a liberal website to make deals with Uganda, the fact it apparently isn't, should worry us all.
struggle4progress
(118,566 posts)dsc
(52,211 posts)note that Skinner has undone the deal so there is no benefit now but it would have been a benefit had the deal gone forward.
Ms. Toad
(34,427 posts)or just thrown away the money already spent there (which the Uganda government will still benefit from), and agreed to purchase an additional TLD?
My experience is that you don't get to "undo" such deals - and my questions/suggestions in another thread were not answered. If, as I suspect, the money is irretrievably in Uganda's hands I would hope DU would make an equivalent donation for the benefit of LGBT individuals in Uganda.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)That statement is much more powerful than $30 in domain fees. No, I dont know for sure how much it costs, I am guessing, but whatever the costs, its insignificant as to its effect for even a poor government. The fact that they are losing future business to their policies though, is a potent statement.
If every firm that potentially wanted to do business in Africa raised the issue of LGBT equality as a precondition for that business and then backed out if the conditions weren't met, something tells me we would soon have an Africa without anti-LGBT laws.
Ms. Toad
(34,427 posts)I have not seen anything beyond saying he will find a different alternative, and disabling the URL shortening function. ("We are going to choose something else. When Elad gets online later today, I will ask him to disable the URL shortening function."
Communicating to the government of Uganda about why there is no traffic through that TLD would be a different matter, and might do some good (but see below - DU is still actually using it). Hosting a message on those links for anyone who lands there, describing why the TLD is not being used by DU would be even better.
Merely shoving them in the back of the closet so they are not as visible doesn't send a message, or accomplish anything other than getting us off his back. So, no, unless he has done more than just disable the URL shortening function in the tweet link, it isn't a big deal.
And, Skinner has not even really shoved them in the back of the closet - Five days later, http://dem.ug still takes you to DU. (He did disable the tweet-shortener, and edit the initial message, but as near as I can tell that is all he has done.)
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)You are right though, there are additional steps that could be taken that would do some good.
Ms. Toad
(34,427 posts)it still links to DU in Firefox, but not in IE for me.
I would suspect a browser cache issue, except I clear it (and the history) daily on this computer.
But - my point is really that just not using something we have already paid for really isn't doing anything except quieting the DU internal masses - it isn't sending a message to Uganda. They have our money, and really don't know or care that we aren't using it.
I was surprised when the links still worked for me - I knew they did later in the day the thread was started than I expected, but I hadn't checked since then.
Ms. Toad
(34,427 posts)Both Chrome and IE return this comment:
"Access a cached copy of dem.ug"
With this embedded link: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://dem.ug/ - The page displayed as of when I am posting this was cached a few minutes before I made my first post today.
William769
(55,351 posts)Looking for who is responsible for root zone and followed e.root-servers.net.
Looking for who is responsible for ug and followed root.eahd.or.ug.
Looking for who is responsible for dem.ug and followed ns1.dca.net.
Nameservers for dem.ug:
ns2.dca.net returned (NORECORDS)
ns1.dca.net returned (NORECORDS)
Ms. Toad
(34,427 posts)with dem.ug connected enough to democraticunderground.com that various tools still pull DU information including relatively page caches from 7/17 and a shared IP address.
Mostly I just got curious once I found dem.ug was still pulling current pages (and an assertion was made upthread that DU was sending a message to Uganda by rescinding the deal) to see how obvious (or not) it was that DU was rejecting the connection.
Ian David
(69,059 posts)Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)beyurslf
(6,755 posts)Maybe I am Internet dense, but how does a country own something like ".ug"?
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)beyurslf
(6,755 posts)Since we can't reply there, I will say here : thank you skinner for listening to the concerns and disabling this feature.
HillWilliam
(3,310 posts)There's a heckuva lot of history that goes into how domain names came to be in the first place. The Internet grew out of ARPANet. The briefest thumbnail is that the US used to control domain names. When the rest of the world began to come online other countries wanted more control of the types of domain names they could create and more control over DNS service. The IANA came into being, then http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICANNhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICANN" target="_blank">ICANN. ICANN charges a (rather steep) fee for creating and implementing a domain name mapping.
It used to be there were only a few top-level domains: .com, .net, .gov, and .org. It got more difficult to come up with new unique names (second-level, like "democraticunderground" as the field got crowded. Eventually, each country got its own unique top-level domain (.us, .ca, .mx, .tv). That opened the floodgates for a lot more unique and interesting second-level domains. Interestingly, the tiny island Tuvalu makes a small profit from the sale of its .tv TLD's. (Nope, .tv doesn't stand for "television" -- it stands for Tuvalu.) Thus, Uganda would make its share from the sale of .ug TLD's.
There is a LOT more to the story, but this encapsulates the barest gist of it.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)which are discussed on their own site. It is getting old, this 'sure we did something hugely offensive and simply wrong, but we only did so because of having bad information, we were not informed'.
So they have spent years judging gay poster's words while they have had zero idea of the stakes at hand.
beyurslf
(6,755 posts)I don't expect Skinner or any other admin to know everything discussed in here or other groups on this website. Du has LOTS of members--how can we expect admin to know about everything? The liberal-progressive cause is a big one too. At diner tonight, I am going to ask my friends how many of them know what has been going on in Uganda regarding gay rights. There will be about 8 of us there, all queer or queer-friendly, and all in varying ranges of political activity but all dems when they get the ballot box.
My guess is 1 will know. I will post back and let you know. My point is, my friends are smart, educated, political, liberal, good people and they won't know. We are busy and there are lot of things that demand our outrage sometimes. Give skinner a break.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)And of course, they are not running political websites and sitting in judgement of statements made about issues they are ignorant of, now are they? No, they are not. I do not hand out 'breaks' to folks who pontificate on subjects they are 'too busy' to know about. Ever.
"What did you do to stop the genocide?"
"Well, I was really really busy, so what I did was send some money to the people committing mass murder. But give me a break, I was so pressed for time!"
beyurslf
(6,755 posts)None of them knew, not even the one who I thought would know.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)in that thread. I then seconded the suggestion from Steven to use dem.de (Germany's domain suffix) (if it's available), and asked Skinner to reconsider.
He promptly did so, and I appreciate that he did.
I also get why GLBT members here continue to express dismay about the original decision.
If there is any consolation, it's that when GLBT members voiced their views, Skinner responded promptly and in a responsible way.
William769
(55,351 posts)Last edited Sat Jul 14, 2012, 02:31 PM - Edit history (1)
Grant you I was pissed when I made that comment in the announcement thread (and rightly so), but the prompt reply was good enough for me.
Mistakes will happen, we all make them it's how we correct and the timely manner that we do it in that shows the true feelings of someone.
With all that said, now I'll give you a reason to complain about me, it's all about participation, just looking at the OP's in this Group, it's abundantly clear who has a right to gripe and who doesn't (this is not aimed at anyone in particular, just an astute observation).
Now I will shut up and let the...
closeupready
(29,503 posts)I suppose change is inevitable - let's hope we attract and retain valuable GLBT members here, going forward.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)was banned from the GLBT forum for the insult with steadfast refusal to apologize, then was reinstated, still without an apology, I basically gave up in DU.
If we can't keep assholes out of this forum that we control, what good is it?
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Who was reinstated?
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)I am a cohost of two safe haven groups. If a member of one of those groups and another DUer have a dispute that is not related to the safe haven group, would your expectation be that I would block the 'other' DUer from the safe haven(s)?
Put another way, if you call someone an asshole on DU, and it turns out that person is a participating member of a safe haven, do you risk being blocked from whatever safe haven of which that person is a member? Does that really make sense to you? If so, I have a lot of research to do to go through DU threads and figure out if anyone called a member of the BOG or Democrats group an asshole or any other name and then block them. I can also tell you that if the top hosts of either of those groups started seeing me doing that, I would become a 'retired' cohost pretty quickly.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)IMO. In addition, the insult was GIVEN in the "safe haven" space, so.... How safe is it? So yes, MADem deserved being blocked from the GLBT forum for calling Vanje a "smarmy asshole". I still have no confidence in the people who restored MADem to having access to posting in GLBT.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)there is stalking or bigotry being displayed. What I saw from the research I did, and its possible I missed something, would not have prompted me to issue a permanent block.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)I'll leave it at that.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)I know I don't. I lost all trust in this group. I lost that trust for damn good reasons, and frankly, the OP list is just a few of the same names over and over and precious few comments left. Why do you think that is?
Personally, I do not feel safe in this group. The Uganda crap is just more of the same, repeated ignorance followed by slavish defense of the ignorance.
FreeState
(10,613 posts)I've been on here a long time and I've seen the ups and downs. Its frustrating that we have to educate the admin of the site on our issues continually. I know its part of the process, but I sure long for the day when DU or liberal groups in general learn to do a little research before they act. I mean how hard is it to google "Uganda Politics" or "Uganda Human Rights," seems like that would have been a lot easier than just going ahead and dealing with any fallout that it causes. Wouldn't that be a normal thing to look into anyway? (I set up websites for a living and one of the first things we ever do is look for conflict of interest in buying URLS, be it from stated purpose or general purpose of the business or organization we are working with.)
mitchtv
(17,718 posts)I too,am sorry to see the condition of our LGBT forum
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)There wasn't any information on regressive policies in Uganda towards LGBTIQ folks on links on the front page with either search.
I didn't remember specifics about Uganda when I saw the stuff about Dem.ug but I did know that, in general, policies in Africa and the Middle East towards gay rights are bad with few exceptions.
I had to reacquaint myself with Uganda's policies and I have to say, they must be the country in the world with the worst gay rights rating in 70 years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Bill
I'm not sure Uganda wants to be associated with their worst record companion of 70 years ago.
Edited to add: This wiki is a good resource for African laws pertaining to LGBTIQ rights http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Africa . Sadly, Uganda is only one of half a dozen or so countries in Africa to propose or actually have a death penalty for being LGBT.
Bearence
(1 post)may have been Uganda human rights rather than just Uganda politics (which doesn't really tell you anything beyond structure).
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)with regards to LGBT rights. Someone mentioned that they should have done a google search on Uganda politics.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)THere have been numerous threads in this forum regarding the kill-the-gays politics in Uganda.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)to this forum. At the same time, one should reasonably be expected to know that support for LGBT rights in that region in general is spotty and that knowledge probably should have prompted additional research before an association like that.
The admins goofed, they know it, and they have taken steps to fix it.
Ms. Toad
(34,427 posts)and I learned about it via non-LGBT sources, repeatedly.
Not knowing about the very recent bill to execute homosexuals in Uganda is a bit of a head in the sand issue that I am less than comfortable with, as I am with the initial response (all these places are bad...) - and the fact that still, 5 days later, http://dem.ug lands you on the Democratic Underground.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)a large variety of stories over a long period of time.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)know to concentrate on whether they discriminate against LGBT versus their trade policies, or their economic disparity or whatever other political issues.
I've said a couple of times that I think that if you are going to do business with anywhere in the Middle East and Africa, LGBT rights is a default questionmark that you have to research, but the admins goofed. They made it right though.
William769
(55,351 posts)hedgehog
(36,286 posts)with compassion fatigue regarding the entire continent of Africa.