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[Mosby]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Mosby) on Mon Feb 6, 2012, 06:23 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[seabeyond]

1. strip them naked, cover them from head to toe. extremes. with the same results.

i experienced this in the extremism in fundamental christianity when my kids were young. we had a boyscout meeting that in the end, had me tell my hubby none of these people were alone with the kids. it wasnt long before we no longer participated. it is an odd thing.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

3. i think there is a difference

there is a lot more choice in women who chose the bikini than those who are forced into purdah. the cultural values that let women choose whatever they wish to wear are much less likely to blame women for rape, than say women who are in purdah and are raped. not saying it's perfect in countries that dont enforce a particular form of clothing for women, but these countries have made much greater developments towards equality

[seabeyond]

4. i am not talking about the mere choice of clothes. i am talking about a society

that is fixated in control of woman thru covering her from head to toe, truly focused on all powerful male sexuality or pornifying women. both cases dehumanizing the women.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

5. one form of control is beyond the ability of women to resist

the other isn't. thats my point. i can wear conservative clothing if i wanted to, a woman in saudi arabia cannot got without her hijab. i think there is a great deal of difference there

[seabeyond]

6. ok. with the same, end, result. they both hurt women. nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

10. the end is nowhere near the same

look at women in afghanistan and saudi arabia, then look at women in countries where women choose their own clothing. you are being completely disingenuous if the suggestion is that the harm done is anywhere near the same

[seabeyond]

11. as are you, ignoring many many reason there are substantial difference beyond religion.

Last edited Sat Jan 14, 2012, 04:18 PM - Edit history (1)

look at the extreme religions in this country that dictate a womans dress and the difference with these women and women in afghanistan and saudi arabia.

[tabatha]

2. I have found that women are treated as sexual objects

no matter the dress, no matter the distance.

[redqueen]

7. How is that a flipside?

The idea that women are the sex class means it doesn't matter *what* you wear, that is how most people will view you.

We need to stop focusing so much on what women wear and focus more on whether or not they've internalized the idea that it is their appearance and sexuality that are the most important things about them. Another thing that will help is communicating the message that this behavior (objectifying women, othering them, etc.) is unacceptable.

First we have to find some way to summarize the concept of objectification, because way too many people just do not get it. It's true that there are various definitions, and the problematic manifestation of it isn't an easy concept to communicate, so that really should be a primary focus.

[Lisa D]

8. "Summarize the concept of objectificaton"

That's the key, but how do we do it? And how do we do it early enough so that people who have grown up with it don't just shrug it off because they've been immersed in it through the media, etc.

[redqueen]

9. That's the $64,000 question.

As for early enough we do it by talking to our children when we see examples of it. Call it out for what it is.

That's no guarantee that young girls won't still fall victim to internalizing this crap. At a certain point they move more toward peers than parents, and you just have to hope by that point that you have inoculated them against the conditioning that they won't fall victim to eating disorders, self-esteem issues about their appearance, etc.

I think the much more difficult problem is reaching adults... the fish who have been swimming in it all their lives with hardly any interference with the dominant message. As for how to do that I have no idea, other than to just keep pointing out examples.