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iverglas

(38,549 posts)
Mon Jan 16, 2012, 08:09 PM Jan 2012

marriage, intersecting interests, and the woman perspective

I'm saying "woman" perspective from now on, because I'm not talking about the perspective of any individual woman, or the perspective that stems from a particular analysis.

I'm talking about the perspective in which women and women's interests as women are central. Anyone can take this perspective on any issue -- women can, men can, feminists can, members of any other disadvantaged group, or any privileged group for that matter, can. "The woman perspective" is a concept similar to, say, "the African American perspective" or "the LBGT perspective". We just don't have as unambiguous a descriptor for "woman": female, woman's, feminist ... none of them work the same way.

And obviously, when I talk about women's interests as women, I am talking about women's equality interests, not the interests of any woman or women in maintaining second-class status, or maintaining the privilege they have, or perceive themselves as having, as a result of or despite that second-class status. Women's interests in their own physical safety, their own economic welfare, their ability to flourish as persons in the public and private spaces they inhabit.

My view of marriage is that it is a patriarchal institution that arose and has long been used as a tool for the oppression of women. Its purpose was to control women's sexuality and keep women economically dependent, all in order to protect men's economic interests. Obviously, this mostly means the economic interests of men of the property-owning class, but in the effort to do that, all men were put in positions of power over their wives: physically, economically, and in all other aspects of the marriage, family and household.

Modern innovations abound: marriages in which the partners have equal economic input and power, marriages in which the women and children do not take the husband/father's surname/identity, marriages that involve equal sharing of domestic duties; laws prohibiting the physical and sexual abuse of wives by husbands, laws that require some sharing of property and income on marriage breakdown, laws that no longer result in automatic custody for fathers. The personal variations are still, by far, the exception to the rule; they are idiosyncratic variations on an institution that maintains its characteristics essentially intact. The formal alterations still have little effect on the reality of large numbers of women's lives, and in some cases have had perverse effects (e.g. more easily dissolved marriages, with custody routinely going to women and women and children living in poverty).

The idea that a personal, sexual relationship is a subject of public scrutiny and is subject to public policies outside the control of the parties to the relationship is one I find oppressive. (I also just find the public rituals associated with such relationships just plain vulgar.)

This is not to say that I do not recognize the need for protections for vulnerable parties to those relationships -- in almost all cases, women are in a weaker economic position and are vulnerable not just to economic exploitation, but also to abuse, as a result. Levelling the playing field somewhat by policies that require sharing of assets and income on marriage breakdown is progress, very recent progress of course. But it doesn't address the inequalities and resulting exploitation and oppression that exist within subsisting marriage relationships.

Obviously those inequalities exist within informal relationships as well. The mere fact that the relationship is not formalized can amount to exploitation, for instance, if the woman is then not entitled to sharing of assets and income on separation.

And obviously doing away with marriage would not do away with the inequalities that women suffer in the broader society, which are a main source of their inequalties within marriages.

Marriage is an institution that women are socialized to aspire to adopting as the paradigm for their lives to a much greater extent than are men. It affects women's lifes to a much greater extent than it affects men's lives, given that the paradigm is still overwhelmingly one in which women have primary responsibility for childrearing and household maintenance, and thus unequal opportunity for a life outside the family, in economic and other terms. The institution is patriarchal and oppressive. In my opinion, but of course. And of course in the opinion of many feminist thinkers. The institution was not created, does not exist and does not function in women's interests.

So ... what of same-sex marriage, and the activism to legalize/legitimize it, and the intersection between women's interests and the interests of the LGBT community?

Well, I have some thoughts, and they coincide with those of some members of the LGBT community.

I'm going to post some of them here, in a separate post because I know very long posts are difficult to follow. If you will bear with me and wait ...

6 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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marriage, intersecting interests, and the woman perspective (Original Post) iverglas Jan 2012 OP
long ago and far away ... iverglas Jan 2012 #1
patriarchy iverglas Jan 2012 #2
I just thought I'd bump this thread iverglas Feb 2012 #3
I think about this topic so much Tumbulu Feb 2012 #4
Honestly, it would be an incredibly long and hard road to sway heterosexual women away from the iris27 Feb 2012 #5
although same sex marriage is an undeniable right Tumbulu Feb 2012 #6
 

iverglas

(38,549 posts)
1. long ago and far away ...
Mon Jan 16, 2012, 08:38 PM
Jan 2012

This "quote" of mine has been flung around in the past:

I have always harboured some resentment about same-sex marriage activism. (We're talking about a couple of decades ago, when it first became an issue to give serious thought to.) Why did the activists not want to join us feminists in smashing the thing altogether? Why did they want to sign on to an institution that had been the instrument for the oppression of women for millennia, and still was (and is)?


This is the actual post it comes from:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4522316&mesg_id=4536530

I can't really reproduce someone else's antique post (despite the notion that call-outs are permitted in protected groups), but the OP in the thread at least should also be read. It's also essential to read the entire column from the Toronto Star -- by a gay man who resented being called on to suppport same-sex marriage. I am emphasizing the passages in my own text that I want to highlight here.

iverglas
Tue Nov-25-08 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
36. You may be interested in this column in the Toronto Star

Forgive me for being late, but I am underwhelmed by the responses in this thread and thought I'd say something. A whole lot of people have just managed to live their entire lives without hearing about that whole patriarchy thing, haven't they?

I have always harboured some resentment about same-sex marriage activism. (We're talking about a couple of decades ago, when it first became an issue to give serious thought to.) Why did the activists not want to join us feminists in smashing the thing altogether? Why did they want to sign on to an institution that had been the instrument for the oppression of women for millennia, and still was (and is)?

The concern has always gone in both directions, too. Many in the GLBT community have not wanted to buy into marriage, for reasons specific to their culture.

http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/539218

I find myself falling into the same trap. I never got the idea of gay marriage. (Heck, I don't even get straight marriage, with its $50,000 parties and other fripperies – give me that kind of dough and I'd be on the next plane to Australia. But that's another story.)

One of the great advantages of gay life has always been its social freedom. Unfettered by institutional restraints, gay relationships were free to seek their own balance.

... But like everyone else, I find myself getting on the pro-marriage bandwagon just because to do otherwise would be un-gay. And this annoys me, because it stifles nuance, innovation and discussion. ...

The Canadian courts based their various decisions on same-sex marriage (striking down refusals to permit it) on the fundamental values underlying the Canadian constitution and Canadian society: respect for the equal dignity and worth of all individuals. To deny two people's relationship the social recognition that marriage obviously still does confer is a violation of those values, and of the equality guarantees in our Constitution.

I don't want that social recognition, as a feminist -- I don't want anyone's recognition that I have hitched myself to someone else, and I don't want any advantages or disadvantages that come with that. I don't want to be involved. I don't want anything to do with the institution.

But in a society that respects individuals and guarantees equal treatment and opportunity, it is not for me to object to someone wanting to do what it is perfectly legal for me to do.

So the theory goes that same-sex partners will change marriage itself by joining in, that the institution will not be the same again. Well, I don't really care. I just want it to go away. But since it's not going to, this year, it's just as well if it gets a new image, I guess.

Will it go farther? --

"Same gender marriage upsets the traditional gender roles of males and females in society."
"Same gender marriage upsets the traditional male authoritarian power structure in society."

I'm not so sure. I don't disagree at all that opposition to same-sex marriage arises out of all that patriarchal stuff. I don't know that permitting it will go far to ending that stuff.

Canada is vastly less patriarchal in terms of public attitudes than the US.

(I have to take the opportunity to recommend this study of attitudes in the two countries again:
http://erg.environics.net/media_room/default.asp?aID=45... )
< link no longer functions; this one does and I highly recommend it:
http://www.michaeladams.ca/articles/pdf/here_father.pdf >

If we agree that same-sex marriage and patriarchy are inherently inimical, then we would have to say that the weaker adherence to patriarchal values in Canada is one reason why same-sex marriage has been so easily implemented here.

The old chicken and egg.

So it would seem to be kind of in the GLBT community's interests to get on board with women's struggles for equality. Looks like women's hard work at tearing down the patriarchal walls did the GLBT community some good up here when it came to getting same-sex marriage.


(My saying "it is not for me to object" understated my position significantly, one would hope it was understood. In my political activities and personal life, I have always rejected any prohibition on same-sex marriage, e.g. as a member of the political party that championed the cause in Canada, the party for which I was candidate several times in the past, and a supporter of Canada's first openly gay MP for leadership of the party.)

I just think this is interesting, in terms of perspectives.

I have posted in the past, not that I could find anything now if I tried, about the cultures of various disadvantaged groups, and how achieving equality should not necessarily mean abandoning historical elements of those cultures that at least some members of the groups may want to maintain. Some African Americans may not to be white people with different skin colour. Some GLBT people may not want to be straight people with a different sexual orientation.

As the Star columnist asks, do all GLBT people want to model their lives on straight culture? For those who don't, does the demand for same-sex marriage marginalize their perspective?

Does GLBT activism for same-sex marriage marginalize the woman perspective?

Can the various interests of one group all be recognized and furthered without marginalizing any other's?

Recognizing the possibly disparate interests of different disadvantaged groups is a start -- and that includes disparate interests within any group itself, apart from any dual-identity/allegiance issues within any group.

And it isn't a one-way street.
 

iverglas

(38,549 posts)
2. patriarchy
Mon Jan 16, 2012, 09:04 PM
Jan 2012

The link I gave in the previous post

http://www.michaeladams.ca/articles/pdf/here_father.pdf

is to this article, from which I'll quote a bit. (Lengthy article, these excerpts are fair use/dealing; my emphases.)

HERE, FATHER DOESN’T KNOW BEST

What makes us different: patriarchal attitudes are flourishing south of the
border, but Canadians are showing a marked divergence of opinion, says
pollster MICHAEL ADAMS

Wednesday, July 4, 2001

... Nearly 20 years ago, my colleagues at Environics in Toronto and CROP in Montreal began a study of Canadian social values. In our first survey of Canadian values in 1983, we asked Canadians if they strongly or somewhat agreed or disagreed that: “The father of the family must be the master in his own house.” ...

The “father must be master” question has become legendary at Environics. We love it because it measures a traditional, patriarchal attitude to authority in our most cherished institution: the family. Sons inherit the land, starting with the first -- primogeniture prevents estates from being subdivided like amoebas. Sons inherit the family business as in Smith and Son. Sons, not daughters, are named “Junior” in the hope they will prove worthy of their father’s aristocratic seed.

That first time, a total of 42 per cent of Canadians agreed that the father should be master, 15 per cent strongly so and 27 per cent somewhat so. ...

Nineteen ninety-two was the first year we began conducting social-values research in the United States, the world capital of individualism and egalitarianism, of civil rights movements and affirmative action (remember, an American was the first to deflower the feminine mystique). We speculated that the United States would be ahead of Canada and France on this trend.

We found to our surprise that 42 per cent of Americans told us the father should be master, while 57 per cent disagreed and 1 per cent had no opinion. ...

In our 2000 Canadian survey, only 5 per cent reported being strongly in support of
patriarchal authority
, down from the 15 per cent we found in 1983 (bad news for Stockwell
Day). This decline was an authentic social revolution. ...

Meanwhile, we found that where 42 per cent of Americans believed the father should be master in 1992, the number increased to 44 per cent in 1996. We wondered if this was a statistical anomaly. We went back into the field in 2000 ... This time, 48 per cent of Americans said the father of the family must be master in his own home; 51 per cent disagreed and 1 per cent had no opinion.


And I have found an update.

http://americanenvironics.com/PDF/UpdatetoRoadmap2008.pdf

Sexuality and gender. Between 1992 and 2004, the percentage of Americans who agreed with the statement “the father of the family must be the master in his own house” went from 42 to 52 percent. But, at the same time, the percentage who agreed that “taking care of the home and kids is as much a man’s work as women’s work” rose from 86 percent in 1992 to 89 percent in 2004. How can this be? the answer may be that people hold different attitudes around gender roles and gender equality depending on the social domain (home vs. the workplace) in question, or that the definition of “master” itself has changed.

The aVS tracks distinct values trends relating to gender, including Patriarchy, Sexism, Flexible Gender Identity, Flexible Family, Gender Parity, Traditional Family, Traditional Gender Identity, and Reverse Sexism. Just because an individual takes a progressive position on one value doesn’t mean she holds a similar position on the other. we also have question batteries around premarital sex, promiscuity, adultery, homosexuality, and an experimental battery on “masculine overcompensation.”



Canada has had legal same-sex marriage for a decade or so now; Canadians have markedly and increasingly non-patriarchal values.

Same-sex marriage has been rejected repeatedly in many places and by several methods in the US; USAmercans have markedly and increasingly patriarchal values.

Coincidence? I suspect not.
 

iverglas

(38,549 posts)
3. I just thought I'd bump this thread
Tue Feb 7, 2012, 09:44 PM
Feb 2012

for the many people who are interested in the feminist perspective on things.

Tumbulu

(6,272 posts)
4. I think about this topic so much
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 05:34 PM
Feb 2012

and just finally saw this.

Yesterday on KQED Forum there was an interview about the growing number of people living as singles (not married). The percentage of people living this way has grown very much over the last 50 years....

The host reminded the listeners that the statistics are that women who marry live shorter lives than those that stay single. Men who marry live longer lives than those who stay single. Marriage appears then to be of a greater benefit to the male.

I personally have been against marriage as something that involves the government for maybe 30 years. I think it should be handled by religious institutions and then any partnership agreements should rest with local government as they relate to civil law. I am under the impression that this is how it is handled in most countries within the EU. I think clear partnership agreements where both parties know what they are getting into contractually would be far better for all rather than mixing romance with legal partnership agreements.

I know that when I was young and at a marrying age, I had no idea what financial burdens a marriage would create. I just wanted to be married like everyone else. As an older woman who has seen many a couple divorce (including same sex ones) my attitudes about it have matured into complete disapproval.

As a plant and animal breeder I know why it was institutionalized, to assure that the breeding pair reproduce without outside genes getting mixed in, but I thought that we were over treating ourselves as (primarily) reproductive units.



iris27

(1,951 posts)
5. Honestly, it would be an incredibly long and hard road to sway heterosexual women away from the
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 07:23 PM
Feb 2012

societal ideal of a long-term, co-housed relationship with a man, often involving children. And as you say, any such relationship, whether formalized or not, will involve exploitation to a greater or lesser degree depending on the individuals involved. So in such instances, especially when there are children, at least marriage provides some protection, however minor.

For example, when my parents divorced, our single-mom family was quite poor, but our circumstances were not as desparate as those of the never-married, single-mom families in our neighborhood. If nothing else, a man who wants a divorce has to show up for court proceedings that will also determine his child support responsibility. Not so for the dad of my best friend growing up, who skipped town the moment her mom told him she was pregnant, and could never be found to secure a child support judgement against.

I think the answer is not to do away with marriage, but to work harder on the second half of that stalled revolution, as Hochschild argued in The Second Shift - to change cultural attitudes so that men are equal participants in the life of the home, so that women and children are not expected to take the man's name, etc., etc. To make all of those things you list as "personal variations" and "exceptions to the rule", and work harder to make them the norm.

And you know what is currently a primary mover in that direction in our culture? Same-sex marriage. When both partners are men, or both women, the gendered expectations no longer apply, and new paradigms are created. Yes, some same-sex marriages ape traditional marriage, with one partner assuming primary responsibility for the home, freeing the other to achieve greater earning power. But unlike heterosexual marriage, where the majority of women have primary responsibility for the home regardless of their work outside it, relationships of this nature are not the majority of same-sex marriages. Simply by virtue of both partners having gender privilege, or both partners lacking it, same-sex relationships have greater income equality on average, and similarly have greater equality in dividing the day-to-day, mundane stuff of life, the stuff that in a heterosexual relationship, tends to fall mostly on the woman.

And you know what? The conservative freakshows KNOW it. That's why they harp on about same-sex marriage destroying the institution of marriage. What they mean is, same-sex marriage threatens their cherished concept of marriage as "I get someone to bear my children and cater to my needs while I go out and chase success".

And especially when they talk about kids...oh, boy. They cite studies done on single-parent families, and go on and on about how the results mean that children need both a mother and a father. No, the results mean that children do better in homes where two loving adults are caring for them, looking out for them, teaching them. So why do the conservatives insist on using that specific, inaccurate talking point, that "children need a mother and a father"? Because they are super-invested in traditional gender roles, and they're scared shitless that the gendered expectations currently built into marriage will fall quickly by the wayside if kids are raised in homes that don't model these roles as The Way It Works.

And once again...I think they're RIGHT.

Tumbulu

(6,272 posts)
6. although same sex marriage is an undeniable right
Sun Feb 26, 2012, 03:23 AM
Feb 2012

and should not be taken away, the problems of marriage regardless of the sexes of the participants remain.

And any idea that if the participants of the marriage are of the same sex that it will be more fair or equitable I feel is wishful thinking at best.

I have many friends who are mothers of small children. One of my friends who was married, a lesbian (she is the birth mother of the children and reduced her career options to be the primary caretaker as well) was dumped by her female spouse for a younger woman without children. The ex has 50% custody despite the fact that the kids want to be with their birth mom who was their primary caretaker. My friend cannot believe that her ex would do this to her after all she gave up career-wise to be the primary caretaker. It is heartbreaking to observe.

So, I am trying to say that outrageous behavior is common in humans and not limited by gender or sexual orientation.

We are indeed seeing more and more people remain single or return to single life after a marriage.


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