Hello My Sisters!

[Sera_Bellum]

This discussion thread was locked by seabeyond (a host of the Feminists group).

I just now discovered that sera was reinstated. Thank you to the powers that be.

Just want to clarify a few things from that very, very, long thread in which I found out of the reinstatement.

1. I am indeed a woman. Obviously there were/are doubts along that line of me being a male troll and not a Lesbian. I have been an OUT and proud faab (female assigned at birth) Lesbian all of my life.

2. Feldspar is NOT a sock puppet or zombie. SHE is also a faab lesbian who has been my life partner for 18 years. Since she can no longer speak for herself, she wanted me to thank the few yet powerful, righteous defenders of the Feminist group from the bottom of her heart.

3. WE want the group to know that it is about US (women and girls) and OUR needs, futures and lives.

[seabeyond]

1. hey.... you. i am glad to see you back.

i was concerned you would not check back.

and thank you for giving us this information.

NOW

quit getting us in trouble. participate and enjoy. we dont know a whole lot in terms of definition and we are getting accusations made about us when we are looking around in confusion.

welcome back

good to see you.

[Sera_Bellum]

2. Hello Sea!

Thank you!

[redqueen]

3. Welcome back.

And yes, it's about women and girls... all women and girls. Even those not FAAB.

[yardwork]

4. I don't understand this phrase Female Assigned At Birth. Why do you identify this way?

[Sera_Bellum]

13. Why not?

That's what happened, they told me I was a girl at birth. They were proven correct when I started my period and other female bodied stuf.f

[yardwork]

18. That was my experience too, but I don't identify as Female Assigned at Birth. That's why I'm asking.

I've never heard this phrase or seen this acronym before. Can you help me understand why it is important to you to identify this way? I'm trying to understand.

[Sera_Bellum]

20. Hello again.

I see what you're getting at. It is important to me to identify this way because other people have identified FOR me. It is important to identify myself. Thanks for your question.

[yardwork]

24. I don't understand. Other people have identified what for you?

I'm trying not to jump to conclusions, but this is looking a bit like you are saying that your femaleness is better than the femaleness of people who identify as female but were not assigned female at birth, in other words, male to female transgender people.

I don't want to jump to conclusions, which is why I'm asking for clarity.

The context: Your partner was banned from this site for making a statement that sounded very transphobic. You were banned and then reinstated. Your statement that you are proudly Female Assigned At Birth raises questions, especially since you aren't using the term in its usual sense.

edited for clarity - the term FAAB has a very specific meaning, it turns out. You aren't using it in that way, which is one reason why we are asking for more information.

[seabeyond]

33. since we are expected to understand the termonology, and i am trying to learn

"edited for clarity - the term FAAB has a very specific meaning, it turns out. You aren't using it in that way,"

what is the specific meaning?

[yardwork]

36. It's quoted in this thread. See the link here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1139&pid=2120

and the OP states that this definition does not apply to her here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1139&pid=2123

Ergo, she is not using the term in the way that it is usually used. Hence, our questions for clarity.

[redqueen]

38. Uh oh... is it because of me?

I got confused and mixed Sera up with someone else (another DUer who was banned who Skinner said had also posted as a man before).

Is that why you're identifying as FAAB? Because I (or someone else) got you (or Feldspar) confused with some other person who was banned?


OK on edit no, you spelled it out in the OP... the doubts about you being a male troll. So yeah, I get the FAAB stuff now. Nevermind.

[seabeyond]

58. ya. nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

5. really? female assigned at birth?

does that make you better/more special/more female/more deserving of the label and the protection of feminists, than those who were born male but have transitioned?

[justiceischeap]

6. Maybe Intersexed? nt

[yardwork]

7. Oh! Maybe that's it. I await an explanation.

[seabeyond]

34. what is intersexed, please? nt

[yardwork]

39. Google is your friend:

http://www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex

[seabeyond]

59. hey... i googled cisgender. nt

[MadrasT]

46. Intersex resource

This is a very interesting site, I learned alot here: The Intersex Road Show

This introductory article is a good start: Intersex 101

[seabeyond]

62. thank you... nt

[justiceischeap]

8. I found the following about the "faab" acronym

Female Assigned at Birth (FAAB): Assigned female sex at birth, identifies as male; Prominent masculine &/or male component.

– Transmasculine, Transman, Transguy/boy/boi, FTM, F2M

http://www.transqueerwellness.org/Trans101

Don't know if it applies to this situation though...

[Sera_Bellum]

10. hi

I do not identify as a male. I am female through and through.

[justiceischeap]

11. Hi back, just trying to understand.

I ask before I shoot. Um... I meant that to be funny... I think I missed the mark.

[Sera_Bellum]

14. Ok great!

Discussing leading to understanding is a grand idea.

Yes, I thought your joke was funny.

[redqueen]

16. "Discussing leading to understanding is a grand idea."

This.

1,000,000,000,000,000,000 times this.

[seabeyond]

37. me too. i like discussing. i like understanding. good stuff. nt

[justiceischeap]

84. So, if you identify as female through and through why are you misusing faab?

That confuses me... first I have to learn a new acronym, which I'm happy to do but I don't get why you're using this acronym incorrectly. I mean, if you identify as female through and through, then faab doesn't work. It makes me wonder why you chose this obscure acronym to describe yourself.

*scratches head*

[obamanut2012]

85. I was wondering that, too

I had to research FAAB.

[obamanut2012]

45. Then you are not "FAAB"

So why does your OP go to great pains to say that you and Feldspar are FAAB?

[Sera_Bellum]

9. Why

would you think I think that? People identify in many ways do they not?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

12. yes, but your partner basically blamed transpeople for misogyny and you are here

boasting about being born female. it makes me think that both of you are trans-phobic and should not be allowed on du.


congratulations on being cisgender. its nothing special. 99% of people are.

[redqueen]

15. "congratulations on being cisgender. its nothing special. 99% of people are."

This.

I gotta say, I don't see the point of identifying as FAAB unless it's somehow counterintuitive (genderqueer / identifies as male).

[Sera_Bellum]

17. Hello.

You have expressed your opinions loud and clear and entitled to them fully.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

19. and in my opinion, your claiming to be FAAB and defending it

is akin to when whites claim to have white pride and see nothing wrong with it.

there is nothing wrong with being proud of being a woman, there is something wrong when you have to qualify that by saying you are proud to be someone who was born a woman (as opposed to those who transitioned)

[Sera_Bellum]

21. Hello again.

Please do not place words in my mouth. TY

[La Lioness Priyanka]

22. i am not placing words, i am at best placing intent

if you could clearly explain WHY you had to tell us that you were born a woman as oppose to transitioned into a woman, i would probably not have to question your intent

[Sera_Bellum]

23. Hello.

I am entitled to identify any which way I please....right?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

26. no, not really. in the context of du, your identification cannot have bigotry at its root

again. "I am a someone who has white-pride" would not be allowed on du simply because its a way to identify.

[Sera_Bellum]

30. I certainly have

no intention of breaking any rules. Identifying as a born woman is now analogous with white power?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

31. its analogous to being proud about things in a bigoted way. nt

[yardwork]

43. What is a "born woman?" Transgender males to females are "born women" too.

Anybody who identifies as a woman is a "born woman." Transgender males to females were women at birth, but identified incorrectly by others as males.

[yardwork]

27. Not on DU. For instance, it is against the rules to identify as Republican here.

There are many identities that are not welcome on DU. Being a Republican is one. Being a white supremacist would be another, for example.

You're entitled to identify any way you please in the real world, but on this particular message board there are rules.

[obamanut2012]

51. Not really, and for two reasons

1. Lioness' white pride analogy is a good one -- it is divisive, and

2. It really isn't cricket to misuse ID terms, now is it? And, you misused FAAB.

Both of these are very interesting to me.

[obamanut2012]

48. She didn't

[maddezmom]

25. Welcome back

How do you feel about trans people? Do you condone your partners remarks that were hidden because they were transphobic?

[Sera_Bellum]

28. Thank you.

I will never speak for my partner. If allowed, she could come back and speak for herself.

I am pro-woman, not anti anything.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

29. do you consider women who were male at birth as women?

[Sera_Bellum]

35. That is a good question. Thanks!

If they i/dentify as a woman, who am I to stop them?

[maddezmom]

32. okay, let me ask you this. do you agree with your partners remarks?

[Sera_Bellum]

40. Hello again.

My interpretation of what she said may not agree with yours.

[maddezmom]

49. then could you give me your interpretation?

[yardwork]

47. You just did speak for your partner, in your OP. I quote:

2. Feldspar is NOT a sock puppet or zombie. SHE is also a faab lesbian who has been my life partner for 18 years. Since she can no longer speak for herself, she wanted me to thank the few yet powerful, righteous defenders of the Feminist group from the bottom of her heart.

Bold mine. Adding italics to make it clear that I am quoting you directly.

[obamanut2012]

54. Gosh, excellent point, Yardie!

[Sera_Bellum]

57. I know a way to resolve this.

Take it up with admin. and bring her back. If a few of you collaborate, it can be done. Thank you.

[obamanut2012]

65. hahaha

[maddezmom]

86. I don't see that happening. But could you offer your interpretation of her comments?

[obamanut2012]

52. You were asked YOUR opinion

And how you feel about Feldspar's opinion.

Why are you sidestepping? mad asked you a legit question.

[TriMera]

41. Does anybody see a pattern here? n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

42. yeah a pattern called transphobia.

i am so done with this shit.

[TriMera]

44. Yes, but there's more to it. n/t

[yardwork]

50. I see 2 + 2 + 2 = 6.

[TriMera]

55. Yes, it is that clear.

[Scout]

149. really? is that a promise? n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

156. ?

what do you mean by that?

[Scout]

157. "i am so done with this shit."

i was hoping you WERE actually done.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

158. sorry to disappoint. wait, no i am not. glad, i am annoying you by staying. nt

[obamanut2012]

53. yes --

weeks ago

[redqueen]

64. What would that be?

I saw the math (2+2+2=6), but I have no idea what it's referring to.

[yardwork]

66. I see three patterns repeating themselves. My metaphor for this is 2 + 2 + 2 = 6.

[iverglas]

164. I see a pattern here

People coming into the Feminists forum for no reason but to attack.

[TriMera]

165. Is that what you see?

I see one disruptor; she may have more sock puppets than she can fit in one drawer, but she's still in the group. I also see that she will continue to try and pit us against each other as long as she is able. Do you not see that?

[iverglas]

167. spit the mealies out of your mouth

I don't have a fucking clue who you are, but if you have something to say to or about me, say it, and say it to my face.

I have another account at DU. When I first joined, I used a name I had used on other discussion boards: bushwah. It is an expression of disgust and disbelief. When I started reading the boards, and we're talking 2001, I found lots of people with names that included "Bush" one way or another. In that sense, mine was inadvertently clever, and I was surprised no one else had chosen it.

However, I didn't want to have a name that identified me with that specific an era/focus, particularly since I am not even a USAmerican. There was no option for changing a username at the time; a name-change option was allowed a while later that was useful precisely for people with name like ihatebush.

Here's the profile for that username:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=100096

Profile information

About bushwah
Statistics and Information
Account status: Active
Member since: 2001
Number of posts: 15
Last post: N/A

Alerts
Alerts sent by me: coming soon
Successful alerts (post was hidden by Jury): coming soon
Success rate percentage: coming soon

Jury
Willing to serve on a DU Jury: Yes
Chance of serving on a Jury: 20% (explain)
Number of times served on a Jury: 0

I have no idea even of how to sign into that account now.

So again: if you are here to participate in this forum, you feel free. If you want to say something to or about me, say it and take your false insinuations somewhere else.

I'm mainly off being busy with this broken leg business and don't have a lot of free time/energy for hosting duties in the next week or two, particularly if I do have to have surgery this coming week. Any decision the other hosts want to make in this instance will be fine with me.

[muriel_volestrangler]

168. Most people are talking about Sera_Bellum, who was previously banned

as Evolve_Already. See sub-thread starting at #123. She was also TakesAVillage_People, though that wasn't banned. And her partner was TAPat (not banned), and Feldspar (banned). This doesn't have to be about you; it's about the thread starter.

[seabeyond]

169. and to be fair, in a thread in another forum they are stating, possibly implying only

that iverglas has a sock pocket. so i think we can understand her confusion that this time, the comment was not about her.

[iverglas]

170. they're stating it pretty fucking clearly

except for not having the courage to name me.

[seabeyond]

171. ya, well, my memory thought so, but i didnt want to fabricate or misrepresent or LIE......

so i added the imply

[TriMera]

173. muriel is right. This is not about you.

However, the fact that people might think that you would break the rules by having a sock puppet doesn't surprise me. After all, you've been caught red-handed breaking the rules in order to continue posting in a thread in which you had been blocked from posting.

No, I was talking about the OP. It might be fine and dandy with you that someone is coming in here to start shit between two groups that have more in common than some seem to want to admit. However, some of us can actually identify with both of these groups and would like to see them work together.

So, I'm just going to lay everything out on the table. I'll start from the middle, rather than the beginning, because I don't have the time or the energy to go back that far (besides, that part is all right here in this thread). Sera Bellum came in here a few weeks ago and started a huge row by saying something homophobic and getting herself PPR'd. Then, at the request of some here, the admins gave her the benefit of the doubt and reinstated her. Suddenly, just as the dust was beginning to settle, here comes Felspar. Now, she gets herself tossed for a trans-phobic remark and the dust up starts all over again. While this whole scene is playing out, there is no sign of Sera Bellum. But, as soon as things start to settle down again - "Hello My Sisters"! And, we're off again...

I can guarantee that when the dust starts to settle again, she'll be back. In the meantime, thanks for giving me permission to participate in your forum.

[seabeyond]

174. you would break the rules by having a sock puppet doesn't surprise me

so you come into the feminist forum to call a member out?

accusing her of sockpuppet in another forum.

that isnt against du rules? that is not aganist the SOP in this forum?

[TriMera]

177. Read it again. I never accused her of having a sock puppet.

She edited posts in a thread that she was kicked out of. That is circumventing the software and breaking TOS.

[seabeyond]

179. no.... you jsut said no wonder people would think you have a sock puppet because of

then threw out accusations

[TriMera]

180. They're not accusations if they are proven.

Would you care to address what my post was really about?

[seabeyond]

181. there is no proof remember me is a sock puppet for iverglas. is there? did i miss something? nt

[TriMera]

182. Yes, you did. I am not a part of that conversation.

There is proof that she went back into a thread and edited her old responses in order to stay in a thread that she was kicked out of. You were a part of that conversation and are quite aware of it. I don't give a shit if she has a sock puppet or not.

[seabeyond]

183. she added EDIT on the post. not like she was hiding it, or say, being sneaking and manipulative

skinner will decide if she broke the rule as you guys continue to trash her all over.

why dont you leave it to skinner to clarify if she broke the rule

hey

you didnt address my point that if she thought you were talking about her having sockpuppets, it might have to do with a thread in lbgt

[TriMera]

185. Do you see my name in that thread?

My post was not about iverglas. It was about Sera Bellum. Would you care to address the subject of my post?

[iverglas]

184. why are you here?

I'm just a curious soul.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=about&forum=1139

[TriMera]

186. I guess I would like to know why it is

that you will not address the situation. I don't have a beef with you, iverglas.

[iverglas]

187. what "situation"?

The vendetta being conducted against me, other members of this group, and this group as a collective entity?

I think I've made my position on that situation quite clear.

[TriMera]

190. You know what?

You win. You've spent a lot of time and energy running around DU trying to make this all about you. And, guess what, it worked. Enjoy the attention. The fact that it comes at the expense of both groups makes it all the sweeter, I'm sure. Enjoy your 15 minutes (or days, for all I care). I'm done.

[iverglas]

191. yup, I know what.

So does everybody else.

[iverglas]

175. start wherever you want

Hopefully you'll just finish soon.

I'm sure there's somebody interested in your revisionist history, but it ain't me.

[justiceischeap]

176. In the spirit of Sera Bellum... +1 n/t

[yardwork]

178. Thank you for this excellent, pithy summary of the events. Well stated.

[seabeyond]

56. made it thru half the thread pretty ok. made it thru the rest of the thread and getting

uncomfortable.....

sera bellum is getting quite a grilling, and there is nothing in our rules that she must answer the questions especially when the intent seems to be bringing back a subject people get labeled for and there is really not an open discussion on different feminist views or opinions. no back and forth conversation.

if a poster were allowed to discuss this in an open manner without trying to label in some way to get her tos'ed, that would be one thing.

i personally have found the whole subject interesting from a feminist point of view. not agree with it necessarily (because i am totally clueless), but can see an argument that transwomen (from what i read only, not opinion) bring male privilege to the table. so though i am defending their woman, as a feminist i can see that point, too.

(brave enough to say out loud, and ready for the pointing fingers to all me a bigot)

but, we cannot talk about the subject on du, from what we have learned the last week, without fear that discussing and learning leads to problems.

the reason i bring it up here is, .... is there a possibility that a gay woman feminist might have that feminist view? and if she does have that feminist view does it mean she/we cannot discuss it on du? and if she cannot discuss it on du, what purpose to this grilling, demanding she express view?

repeating, this is me not knowing ..... shit

[Sera_Bellum]

60. Hello Sea

[TriMera]

61. You're playing right into the pattern, seabeyond. No disrespect intended. n/t

[obamanut2012]

67. +1

Listen to TriMera, because she is right. No disrespect from me, either.

[TriMera]

93. Thank you. I'm not trying to be cryptic...

I just don't know how to be any clearer without breaking the rules.

[obamanut2012]

97. Yup

[yardwork]

63. So you're saying that we shouldn't ask for clarity? We should just reach our own conclusions?

I'm confused. I thought that asking for clarity before jumping to conclusions was a good thing.

[redqueen]

69. Well... she used the term 'grilling'... which

I took to mean that rather than explore why Sera might think her partner's views were not what others were saying, there were just questions of 'do you agree'... and I was suspicious of the "FAAB" with no intuitive reason to think she was anything but, but then I realized that she had been thought to be a male troll before, so that also might be a reason to hold back on the suspicion / accusations.

So although there were questions, they seemed to be the kind that were asked more in the spirit of looking for a confirmation of what the questioner expects to hear, rather than an open request for an explanation.

e.g. "Your partner said x, which I took to mean x... that was offensive to me. Can you explain why they said it or what they meant by that?"

[yardwork]

76. I can only speak for myself. I have been careful not to say that anything is offensive to me.

However, I am very uncomfortable with the way that this term FAAB is being used by this poster. The recent context of the OP's posts and her partner's posts add to my discomfort. I think it is fair to ask the poster what they mean. And I must say that her answers have not been very transparent. There seems to be a lot of side-stepping going on and that is adding to my discomfort.

Note that I am careful not to say that I am offended by anything. I am saying that I am uncomfortable, and as a result of my discomfort, I am asking for clarity. The fact that that clarity is not forthcoming is adding to my discomfort, and leading me to ask follow-up questions. Those questions, too, are not being answered in a very transparent way, imo.

This is not a minor matter. This is not a matter of semantics. Real people's lives are literally at stake. Transgender people are murdered and driven to suicide every day.

[redqueen]

77. You don't have to tell me...

and yes, I was uncomfortable with the way FAAB was used initially... but then I thought I might have discovered why... but no, that term is too loaded for that, I think.

I almost posted this this morning, but I didn't know where to put it. And I was worried about starting an argument (sigh).
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2012/02/09/this-is-what-happened-to-cece/

[yardwork]

80. Thank you.

[obamanut2012]

90. Very well put, Yardwork

I can cosign your post 100%.

[maddezmom]

68. yeah, I've learned a lot on this subject recently as well

including this link I found today. It's eye opening and repulsive.
http://wewillnot.wordpress.com/2010/10/14/transitioning-is-anti-woman-no-matter-which-way-youre-going/

there are feminist out there that are bigoted against the trans community.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

70. and there are lesbians and gays who are as well

and just being a feminist or LGB doesn't keep you carte blanche to be a bigot

[maddezmom]

73. agreed

[redqueen]

75. Jesus Christ... really?

I ... I'm speechless.

I mean I guess I shouldn't be surprised, they're people... with human failings... but... argh. Just argh.

[yardwork]

78. Yes. In recent days I have received heartbreaking PMs from some transgender people.

I don't think it is well understood on DU how deeply hurtful - the point of being life-threatening - transphobic bigotry is to real people.

[redqueen]

87. I know for a fact it's not well-understood.

I had no idea.

I think there are many well-meaning people who are just clueless. I know because I am one.

[yardwork]

89. I was clueless, too. And so are many gay and lesbian people. Being gay doesn't mean we understand.

The history of abuse directed at transgender people is incredibly heartbreaking, and their rights are not well-protected at all. DADT is repealed, but it's still illegal for transgender people to serve in the military. There are no workplace protections, nothing. As far as we have to go for "gay" rights, the country is much, much further behind with trans rights.

The history is horrific. Just plain horrific. I had no idea either until about a year ago, and I've been alive more than a half century.

[obamanut2012]

92. Or how many transgendered posters there are

I don't blame them for not "outing" themselves.

sigh.

[redqueen]

72. Yeah, I learned that just yesterday myself.

On the one hand I'm curious about why, but on the other... I don't know if I really want to know.

[Starry Messenger]

82. I learned a few years ago that Gloria Steinem had achieved some long-lasting notoriety

for anti-trans comments. She's walked them back over the years.

God, that link is horrible. o.O

[moriah]

160. Read your article.

And while I disagree with the author's explanation for why it's necessary, I agree that there should be some spaces for women who were born in a female body to be around other women who are born in a female body -- and a community has the right to preserve the nature of that space.

Mainly, it's because there are some things that women who were born in a female body can only share with others who were the same -- for example, discussions/rituals about menstruation. A menstrual blood empowerment ritual is not something that our transgender friends and allies can really share. If I want to talk to someone about that very specific bodily function who understands it both from previous *and* current experience, that is something I can only discuss with a post-menarche, pre-menopausal woman who was born in a female body.

There was a kind of dust-up regarding one intentional community in my local area that is safe space for women who were born female only -- they were having discussions about whether or not they should invite transgendered persons into their space. As part of that discussion, they wanted to hear from both FTM and MTF folk, but due to current policy it was impossible for them to stay overnight on the community property during those discussions. I offered my home as a haven so no one would have to pay for hotels, etc, and had quite a few very lovely and interesting houseguests for a weekend. Wolf Creek Sanctuary had a similar meeting to discuss whether or not they would invite people who were not gay males into their space -- I'm honestly not sure how either discussion ended.

I'm very glad that places like Short Mountain Sanctuary that are inviting to all genders instead of just one or two, all sexualities instead of just one or two or three, etc. But do I think that every safe space should be just as inclusive? No. There are things that I will never fully understand about the experience of a gay man in our culture, and there may be times when they need to be around others who can understand that aspect of their experience from personal previous and current experience.

And I don't think either of the two ICs I mentioned are bigoted for being safe space for people who share that experience.

[seabeyond]

71. i have a kid to get back to. i will come back to this subthread, later. nt

[obamanut2012]

74. You also kinda just really insulted MTF

That whole "male privilege" thing. No, they don't. They are actually doubly damned by others' male privilege. Go to your library or bookstore today and get Jenny Boylan's "She's Not Here," for something that is more approachable for you to help you understand. I'm not being snarky. It's a very good book and will explain things to you, much more so than theory websites will.

MTF are not men, that is the first thing you have to understand. THEY ARE NOT MEN.

What feminist view are you talking about?????

And, lastly, everything can be discussed on DU, but there must be honesty up front when one enters into the discussion. Posters have a right to question Sera Bellum on this.

[seabeyond]

79. everything can be discussed on DU.... steer friggin do do....

Last edited Thu Feb 9, 2012, 06:23 PM - Edit history (2)

i am on my way out the door and regardless of how i tippy toed to say what i did, .... you found a way to diss me a couple three times. dont even pretend everything is open for discussion. it just is not.

[obamanut2012]

94. I actually wrote you a very nice, well meaning post

I guess I'll promise never to do that again. I took pangs to explain your misconception, and a really good resource that is interesting, and not as dry and academic as a theory website. Won't be happening again.

At this point, I believe, you are just trying to get offended by certain posters, me being one of them. I am weary with it.

And yes, everything is, if the discussion is approached with honesty and sincerity.

[yardwork]

103. I've started to write this, deleted, then started again several times. Please don't curse.

I'm just going to put it out there. So far, there had been none of the "fucking" this and "shit" that that is so pervasive in other threads in this forum. As a feminist I find it very disheartening to see women cursing at one another.

I mean this in a very respectful way. I'm not trying to call you out or anything. I'm just tired of seeing women curse at one another, in the Feminist forum of all places.

[seabeyond]

108. no cursing either? last night i read a poster tell a host of feminist she couldnt use vampire

either... because it was mystical and gave feinist a bad name or made them look silly, something.

lets define all the things we cant say.... but ______ and _____ is a big thumbs up.

(and not you saying _______ and _______ is ok).

cant promise i will never curse in any thread. ever again, cause it isnt going to happen.

but i can respect not cursing in this thread here, for right now.

[yardwork]

115. I think that there has been too much cursing AT people in this forum lately.That's all I'm saying.

You aren't the one I've noticed doing the cursing, either. It just happened to come up in this thread so I decided to mention it. I haven't noticed that you curse a lot.

I don't give a damn about cursing. People can fucking curse all they want. I'm just saying that there's been a lot of cursing at women by women here lately, and maybe we could take it down a notch.

[seabeyond]

118. lol. gotcha. nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

81. +10,000

[redqueen]

83. I've seen that claim before, that they are born with male privilege...

but I think I see it more your way. They may, simply because they have male genitalia, be *due* that male privilege, but the fact that they *are not* male, inside their heads and hearts... means it's all a cruel joke. They either attempt to fake maleness and accept said privilege (which ... I cannot imagine the psychological and emotional toll of doing that), or be who they are and be, as you said, doubly damned.

I'm just now dipping a toe in the transgender waters, so forgive me while I catch up, but after reading a few heated discussions about this, this is what I've come to ascertain thus far.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

88. this is probably fairly accurate. nt

[obamanut2012]

95. Right, and an additional layer is they are despised by some straight men

In a way, say, a lesbian never is. SHE just needs the right man to bed her. But a MTF?

Like Lioness and Yardwork said up thread, there plenty of LGBs who don't get it, either. It's a reason, I think, that so many of us are really sensitive about transphobia: they are our sisters (and our brothers) who are often the Forgotten Ones where civil rights are concerned.

[yardwork]

104. Very well said.

I'm a lesbian, but as a cisgender person I have all kinds of privilege that transgender people do not have. I never knew I had this privilege. That's the definition of privilege - not even knowing that one is benefiting from it. Since I found out I've been trying to spread the word.

[redqueen]

91. About that male privilege... here's the thing...

Many people have privilege issues that they need to un-learn. White women, heterosexual women, middle class and wealthy women, and first world women, too.

But for some reason it is not suggested that due to that privilege, that they need to be denied access to feminist spaces.

I understand that male privilege is the one privilege that stands in the most direct opposition to feminist ideals and efforts... but taking into consideration what others have pointed out, that these people do not ever 'feel' male, I think that bears considering, and that while there are spaces on the internet that are reserved for FAAB only feminists, that this place on DU doesn't need to be one. Just MHO of course, but that's how I see it.

[justiceischeap]

96. And I'd like to point out... that those with male privilege can be staunch feminists

Phil Donahue is a great, public, example.

Just because you happen to have a privilege doesn't automatically mean you abuse that privilege. As a lesbian, within the LGBTQ community, I have privilege over the trans community (and to some extent the gay male and bisexual community) because, for whatever reason, lesbians aren't as hated by the general public as gay men, bisexuals or trans folk. Yet I try not to take my privilege for granted or use it to deny others theirs.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

99. good point

[obamanut2012]

101. Good points

[seabeyond]

102. and there are feminist that are adament that a male cannot be a feminist. there are feminist that

insist a republican cannot treat his woman well. there are feminists that believe no man should talk in our feminist forum.

yes

there are all kinds of beliefs and thoughts out there.

i dont believe any of those.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

109. are there really feminists who believe republicans dont treat their women well?

or do they say being republican works against feminists interests? to me there are very different things.

you can treat a woman really well while still making it difficult for feminism to succeed.

[seabeyond]

111. yes. i get that they are different. hence, me choosing the words i did.

we have had many conversations where woman will state that republican men want a barefoot and preg marriage.

[redqueen]

113. Yes, there's a perception that some anti-woman behaviors only exist on *that* side of the aisle.

It's silly, but I have seen people get offended when anyone dares to suggest that such behaviors are also demonstrated by our fellow progressives.

[seabeyond]

98. redqueen. i am not advocating or suggesting or arguing anything. i am too unfamiliar with the

subject.

i dont discuss let alone argue a subject i do not know anything about.

what i was saying is, the grilling without saying.... that went down the thread made me uncomfortable. so... if this is what you are saying, fuckin say it. and sera can have a choice of responding or not.

i was just putting out, as a guess, as a possibility, as an alternative.

but

i am well and not going to be a part of the discussion.

[yardwork]

106. I would be disappointed if you dropped out of this conversation.

Upthread I asked you not to curse at your sisters, and I hope that you aren't offended by my suggestion. I don't think that anybody wants you to drop out of this conversation though. In fact, I think that it's going very well! We all seem to be learning a lot.

[seabeyond]

112. i was not cursing... at her. i was cursing. steer friggin do do.... is saying no way.

no way... is not at someone.

and no, i was surprised, but as i said, right here and now i can respect that. i cuss. sssshhhh, secret.

[yardwork]

116. Ok. That's cool.

[redqueen]

107. Yes, I see that side of it too...

people are suspicious of Sera because of past comments, and the grilling was a bit much IMO... I don't want anyone to feel scared away from this forum because they feel piled on (and I feel like I've been guilty of this in the past, too, about issues that strike a deep chord with me)... so I really can see both sides to this, and just hope that we can all manage to work past our differences or at least come to understand each other... because I see this cause, the feminist cause, as being so important. Not that any other cause is less important, but this one is one of my highest priorities... probably because of how I've been treated in my life. I have felt discriminated against for being biracial, and for being poor... but the one kind of nastiness that is the most prevalent to me personally, the one that has hurt me the most often, is the disrespect and nastiness I've faced solely for being a woman. So that's why this cause means the most to me. I understand that others have a different experience, and different reasons for being more or less committed to other causes and that's fine... but here I want us all to unite for women. And since I see MtoF trans people as women, I can't see any reason to shut them out.

And I do think that anyone who feels offended should be able to say that and have that accepted. Even, yes, men... if they feel offended by some of the sweeping statements that are made in here, that's fair for them to call out because we do have male allies (or feminists if they're comfortable using that term), and I don't want them to feel unwelcome, either.

And I know I talk too much and I'm sorry about that but I just want to be understood... and to understand others.

[yardwork]

110. I like your thinking and I agree with your points.

I think that the context is important, though. If there had not been some very upsetting events in recent days involving transphobia in DU, and if those issues had not directly involved the OP and her partner, then the reception of her return and statement that she is "a proud Female Assigned At Birth" would not have gotten this reaction.

I think that the reaction - which may seem like grilling - is totally to be expected given what has happened in recent days. In fact, I think that people are working very hard to be nice. The reaction could have been a lot worse, imo.

[redqueen]

114. I agree completely.

I can definitely see myself having that same reaction to someone else, for similar reasons.

Groups that are used to being attacked seem to be defensive about perceived attacks for some reason. Weird, huh?

[yardwork]

117. Exactly!

[obamanut2012]

100. I really urge people to read Jenny Boylan's book

"She's Not Here."

To understand some of these things a bit more, in a mainstream memoir way. I know that's more fun and palatable to read than many academic theory books.

[yardwork]

105. The book Stone Butch Blues really opened my eyes.

[Texasgal]

119. As usual

I am soooo confused!

FAAB?

2+2+2=6 ??

What's with all the cryptic talk?

[redqueen]

120. FAAB = female-assigned at birth

It means there was no doubt as to the infant's sex so 'female' was written on the birth certificate.

When there's doubt, the surgeon and parents usually make some decision and then the infant is left to deal with the consequences of that much later in life.

I think it's usually used by genderqueer or trans people (i.e. FAAB women who identify as male, or women who are transitioning, but I am *not* an expert, this is what I've picked up over the past few days).

As for the math, I have no idea. I'm just trying to keep us from going at each other's throats again.

There is also the issue of why these issues of sexuality are being raised and hashed out here, since they would really fit more in the LGBT group. As to that I'm not sure but things have been pretty crazy around here lately so I think it's likely that people are just not wanting to be too trigger happy with locking threads or what have you.

[justiceischeap]

122. I think the whole sexuality came up because of the FAAB acronym

SB brought it up in her post and we wanted to know what the heck she meant (which she still hasn't successfully conveyed why she chose to use that since she doesn't really identify with the definition).

As far as the math, I could explain but, like you, I don't want things to get out of hand.

[obamanut2012]

128. FAAB appears to be VERY rarely used

And is not a trans term. It appears to be more of a genderqueer term.

[redqueen]

153. Yes, that's the only way I've seen it used before organically...

like someone used it conversationally.

I don't know where I saw it listed along with trans words, but it was one of those explainy pages, not a discussion where someone used the term themselves.

[seabeyond]

121. lol texas

[maddezmom]

123. Just wanted to bring this to everyone's attention

I googled mansplain that Feldspar used the other day and found this. And Evolve_Already was TS'ss for being a homophobe and transphobic.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x594747
Evolve_Already (154 posts)

Fri Mar-11-11 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Thanks for the welcome Control-Z.

I see many DU'ers not reading previous posts prior to writing. This hasn't changed since I basically 'quit' DU in '06.

My handle was Ittakesavillage_people back then, however due to years of inactivity, my log-in info was gone.

Not enough posted comments so I had to write you here, not privately. Thanks for the welcome, it is appreciated.


and it was this thread that earned the granite cookie. The posts are all gone but you can figure out the gist of it by reading the other members posts.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=949261&mesg_id=949572

[yardwork]

124. Thanks for posting that. One of the posts that remains alludes to "born woman."

The original post was deleted, but based on the response, it looks like the poster used the term "born woman" in the context of making a bigoted remark about a transgender woman.

I remember watching that video of a transgender woman being beaten in the McDonalds. It was horrible. It went on and on and on. People kicked the woman in the head until she had convulsions. And the whole time somebody was recording the attack on his cell phone and cheering. It was revolting. That anybody could have gone into a thread about that attack and said anything derogatory about the victim....

I'll tell you what it is. It's evil. Evil.

[muriel_volestrangler]

125. Just to clarify that for everyone - Sera_Bellum also was "IttakesaVillage_People"

From her hidden and locked thread a couple of weeks ago:
http://upload.democraticunderground.com/11391371
"Allow me to introduce myself. This screen name is rather new but I have been around on DU a long time. My previous screen name was 'It takes a Village_People'."

(note the correct DU2 ID was actually "TakesAVillage_People" : http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=199109 )

So both Sera_Bellum and Evolve_Already claim to have been TakesAVillage_People; and Evolve_Already was banned in DU2.

[maddezmom]

127. correct, thanks for the clarification

[obamanut2012]

129. And was homophobic and transphobic and used an "FAAB"-type slur

Against MTF.

Thanks to both of you!

[yardwork]

131. I want to make sure that I understand this correctly:

Last edited Fri Feb 10, 2012, 04:39 PM - Edit history (1)

Sera_Bellum = It takes a Village_People = Evolve_Already = banned on DU2 for homophobia and transphobia.

Sera_Bellum + Feldspar = partners

Feldspar = banned on DU3 for transphobia

Is that correct?

Edited to add - we seem to have another one: SargassoSea

See http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1137&pid=4872

[TeeYiYi]

132. That's how I read it...

...and furthermore:

sara bellum = ”all woman FAAB lesbian” which is a completely fabricated title.

FAAB is a trans term for male identified ftm transgendered people.

TYY

[obamanut2012]

133. And, I bet, also Kitty Herding

Or, Sera Bellum and Feldspar = It takes a Village_People = Evolve_Already?

[muriel_volestrangler]

134. Yes, I think so, plus TAPat was TakesAVillage_People's partner

(see http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2880482&mesg_id=2891465 )

So Feldspar appears to be TAPat (who has not posted on DU3 as far as I can tell, and was not banned on DU2, but I'm just putting this in for completeness).

[justiceischeap]

135. OT (but not really): Check out the documentary "Catfish"

if you aren't going to watch it, read this on Wiki:

But I'll warn ya, it gives the entire thing away but it is appropriate to this discussion.

[Starry Messenger]

136. That's how I'm reading this too.

Wow, just wow.

[yardwork]

137. Well, there's the whole damn problem right there. I mean. Really.

No need to look much further.

[TeeYiYi]

140. Yup...

Hopefully any future purging of puppets will include an ip address block.

Chicanery exposed indeed.

TYY

[obamanut2012]

126. Whoa

[boston bean]

138. my head is spinning...

[obamanut2012]

139. I also find the first sentence in the OP odd

And know I'm not the only DUer who does:

"I just now discovered that sera was reinstated."

[TeeYiYi]

141. I know. The 3 faces of eve...

... Which one am I talking to now? ...

Seriously, who refers to themselves in the 3rd person besides Sybil?

TYY

[obamanut2012]

142. And Jimmy on "Seinfeld"

[TeeYiYi]

144. ...and Jimmy...

...lol

Sybil and Jimmy and Bob Dole...

...and Sera.

TYY

[yardwork]

147. Dick Nixon used to refer to himself as Dick Nixon.

[TeeYiYi]

143. Oh yeah...

...and Bob Dole.

TYY

[justiceischeap]

145. Don't forget, Sybil was recently exposed as a fake.

Real 'Sybil' Admits Multiple Personalities Were Fake

Shirley Mason, the real Sybil, grew up in the Midwest in a strict Seventh-day Adventist family. As a young woman she was emotionally unstable, and she decided to seek psychiatric help. Mason became unusually attached to her psychiatrist, Dr. Connie Wilbur, and she knew that Wilbur had a special interest in multiple personality disorder.

"Shirley feels after a short time, that she is not really getting the attention she needs from Dr. Wilbur," Nathan explains. "One day, she walks into Dr. Wilbur's office and she says, 'I'm not Shirley. I'm Peggy.' ... And she says this in a childish voice. ... Shirley started acting like she had a lot of people inside her."

http://n.pr/wCSQWH

[obamanut2012]

146. I read the "expose" book

Very interesting.

[obamanut2012]

148. Something to read during your morning coffee break

Found during a DU search:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=229x13075#13076

[seabeyond]

150. i remember that. i stayed out of it. but, i kinda liked that argument.

tis true. the best way not to get preg is not let the penis in...... lol.

[TeeYiYi]

151. Weird...

Well now we know where the lgbtqwtflolbbq comment came from. I think they're ALL one and the same homophobic transphobic individual.

TYY

[yardwork]

152. Is Feldspar claiming to be Weightlifting Lady in that thread?

How many identities does this poster claim?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=229&topic_id=13075&mesg_id=13120

[TeeYiYi]

154. Unclear...

...but I think they're just saying that they remember weightlifting lady.

TYY

[obamanut2012]

155. I don't know -- I just thought the thread was interesting

Especially because many posters thought she was acting trolly.

[yardwork]

159. I share your interest. Very interested, I am.

[justiceischeap]

161. It is ironic, isn't it. :) nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

162. no, i think they are saying they know weightlifting lady

who incidentally is awesome and not crazy

[yardwork]

163. I agree. If it's the weightlifting lady I know, then this poster is not her.

[Vanje]

166. Yes.

Homophobic , transphobic, and among friends here.

[iverglas]

172. did anybody happen to notice this bit?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11374546

Response to Morning Dew (Reply #49)
Thu Feb 9, 2012, 02:52 PM

justiceischeap

50. Is it possible that Sera Bellum, Feldspar, etc.

are actually all the same person?

And I apologize now if asking this question is somehow against the rules... and it is, please let me know and I will delete this comment immediately.



Response to justiceischeap (Reply #50)

Thu Feb 9, 2012, 03:02 PM

William769

52. I PPR that poster for that reason and a couple of others resons.

Skinner over rode my decision.

I still stand by my decision and believe that it will all work out in the end.

And anyone who thinking about alerting on this post,I am only giving information about a my MIR decision.

Just in case anybody didn't think my assessments of the situation were right.

One of the main vendetta members took it upon himself to PPR a poster from the Feminists forum based on his own at least questionable interpretation of her words ... and Skinner overrode him.

Perhaps a longer chat with Skinner is in order.


Anybody who hasn't read that thread should consider taking a little time and doing it.

Interesting the kind of thing that gets said outside the Feminists forum and not alerted on ...

[Remember Me]

188. I have read this thread with

growing horror, dismay, shock and astonishment.

I challenge each of you who have posted on this thread to go back with a fresh eye -- tomorrow, perhaps -- and read through the thread thoughtfully and with an open mind, post by post, starting at the top. Most of you participating have grilled this woman and subjected her to the likes of an inquisition. You have DEMANDED answers of her as if she were on trial in a jury, and you were the prosecutors. YOU ARE NOT. And no matter what you think of her, her partner, or whatever, you really didn't have the right to subject her to that treatment. Most of you have NOT been looking for more information, but for reasons to find her guilty.

Whatever else may or may not be true, whatever else YOU think, she was reinstated. It's time you respected that instead of trying to force or goad her into saying something that will get her banned again.

If you read the thread with a somewhat open mind, instead of dragging old baggage that you think is true about her and/or feldspar, I think you will be ashamed of yourselves. Scratch that. I KNOW you'll be ashamed of yourselves, unless you can't reach that objectivity. But that's okay, I'm probably ashamed enough of you for all of us.

Here's a bit of irony. I don't think I've ever heard the acronym FAAB before. However, I was greatly amused to find out that apparently, even members of the LGBT community who are so busy excoriating her aren't all that clear on the meaning: See especially POSTS 51 THRU 95

Now, I am going to call on the Hosts here -- whoever they are -- to take action and insist that THIS TYPE of behavior, this ganging up on a person en masse and DEMANDING answers as in an inquisition no longer be tolerated. If you genuinely want information, there are ways to ask questions of people in a civil, friendly tone -- without treating them convicted child molesters or something, fer cripes sake.

[laconicsax]

189. Hosts are limited in what we can do.

Ganging up on a person and demanding answers, while objectionable, isn't something group hosts can take action about unless it violates the group SOP.

[iverglas]

192. actually, hosts can ban users at whim

Trust me, I know.

The behaviour in this thread was unacceptable. This forum is not about any individual, and is not provided as a forum for attacking any individual. If these people want answers to personal questions from any individual, they are welcome to ask the person by PM, or hell, go start a call-out thread in H&M or someplace.

It IS contrary to the SoP of this forum for it to be used to attack posters in this forum who have not violated the forum's SoP.

A safe community where all those interested in discussing and trying to resolve the problems that are inherent to women in society can come and work together, without having to defend the basic premise that issues do exist which specifically affect and limit women, their rights and their potential.

Remember Me is absolutely correct; the entire inquisition against the OP in this thread was contrary to the SoP.

If someone thought the OP itself was off-topic for this forum, they were welcome to submit an off-topic alert that the hosts would have dealt with.

[laconicsax]

193. There's a big difference between can and should.

You do make a good point though.

[Remember Me]

194. And mine wasn't?

[maddezmom]

195. and now the OP has been PPR'd

for good reason.

[obamanut2012]

196. Whoa

Hood for EarlG.

[justiceischeap]

197. Glad to see that EarlG made the correct decision on this one. n/t

[seabeyond]

199. the OP poster has been tos'ed. nt