Words

[boston bean]

I would like to hear from the feminists on DU. I will ask some questions below but would like to give some back ground for the reasoning of the questions.

I have read on DU that words can't hurt you unless you let them.

I have read on DU that people have free speech, and that feminists are trying to infringe on that right.

I have read on DU that feminists who point out sexist speech are "pearl clutchers" are "getting the vapors" and "need a fainting couch".

I have read on DU that there are special contexts and circumstances where sexist slurs should be allowed on DU.

I have read on DU that pointing out the use of this sexist language is detrimental to feminism, essentially minimizing more pervasive forms of sexism.

How, would you respond to a poster who retorts in any of the ways above, when you bring to their attention that the words/phrases they are using is sexist?

How do you respond to other women who retort in the same fashion?

I really hope that we can brainstorm and learn from one another.

[ZombieHorde]

1. I will offer a little to get things started...

Last edited Fri Feb 10, 2012, 11:02 AM - Edit history (1)

I have read on DU that words can't hurt you unless you let them.

This reasoning assumes we all have great control over our emotions. Consider the following extreme example: The death of your children can't hurt you unless you let it.

We are interconnected beings, and we have emotions. The reasoning denies these facts.

I feel like I am missing a really good rebuttal here. I am going to think about it some more.

I have read on DU that people have free speech, and that feminists are trying to infringe on that right.

Free speech is about government restrictions on its citizens. If I stand in a store and yell, "fuck my armpit," over and over, I will be asked to leave. If I don't leave, the police will be summoned to remove me for trespassing.

I have read on DU that feminists who point out sexist speech are "pearl clutchers" are "getting the vapors" and "need a fainting couch".

They can't argue against your point, so they argue against you instead. Extremely immature argumentation tactic in my opinion. Some people just can't admit when they are wrong, so they throw a tantrum instead.

I have read on DU that pointing out the use of this sexist language is detrimental to feminism, essentially minimizing more pervasive forms of sexism.

Why? Because sexist people will be offended? For this one, I may try to get the poster to specifically state why they think this, and then ask them if the reason applies to them. Should our arguments be for some mythical, unknown audience?

Offer specifics, and expect specifics in return.

[boston bean]

4. Thank you Zombie Horde, all very good responses.

That last is one of the hardest, because many times it comes from another woman.

[Kellerfeller]

18. I contend the original claim is true

This reasoning assumes we all have great control over our emotions. Consider the following extreme example: The death of your children can't hurt you unless you let it.

We are interconnected beings, and we have emotions. The reasoning denies these facts.

I feel like I am missing a really good rebuttal here. I am going to think about it some more.

Yes, we do have emotions. However, as humans we can control our emotions. Some people choose not to.

But we can. Personally, I know that I can partition emotions. For example, during times of significant family tragedy or problems at home, I can and have completely put it aside in order to do my job.

If it came to the death of one of my kids, I have no doubt I could do it then as well and grieve at a time I choose (i.e. I actually deal with it and let it hurt).

I'm using "I" a lot here, not out of vanity but simply as personal experience. I don't think I am special or unique. I think we all have that ability. Granted, for some it is easier than other. But that is true for almost everything we do.

In arguments, fights, and even love, if a person lets their emotions override their reason, it usually does not end well.

So yes, your assumption at the beginning is correct. However, the fact that we have emotions does not mean we have to let them control us.

[ZombieHorde]

19. If we shouldn't consider each others feelings, then why is anything "bad?"

Why treat any animal, such as humans, differently than any plant?

[Kellerfeller]

20. No one said anything about how we treat others

Of course we should treat others well. However, not everyone does what they "should".

This discussion is about how we let other people affect us.

You generally can't control how others behave. However, you can control how you act and how you let other people impact you (at least mentally/emotionally).

[seabeyond]

21. tell that to a child. all of us who have raised children know better. tell that to a

person who has spent a lifetime being beaten down. tell that to a person whose basic character is not domineering, confident.

it is easy to say. it is easy for me to do. but everything in my life has been set up so it is really easy for me. i am not nearly arrogant (not a harsh word or directed at you, remember dont own or take personally) enough to believe that everyone should have the same abilities as i. because i am capable, i see all kinds of reasons another is not. and beating them down, or being a part of their death, can never rationalize me not standing up for others, because i have the ability to control my emotions.

emotions have never had a hold on me. i hardly get them. feel.... i know how to feel.... but i was blessed (how i see it) with a low level of emotion. i do like i can feel and identify what i and others may be feeling. others have a high and strong emotional base. it is who they are. that is what makes us all unique.

it would be very easy for me to say, emotion should not have the power over you

but how far does it take me just saying it?

[Kellerfeller]

22. Don't worry

No offense taken. I don't let message boards impact me emotionally.

Like I said, for some it is easier that for others. That doesn't mean people shouldn't work towards it. Just because I'll never be a great guitar player and it doesn't come easily to me, doesn't mean I shouldn't work toward it. And that is just something I want to do.

Protecting yourself emotionally and controlling your emotions is far more important in life.

Would you tell a kid not to bother trying to play the guitar because you think they just can't do it? I wouldn't. Just as I would encourage kids to recognize that some people are mean and that if you let them get you upset, they win. If you can teach kids to take a step back and not be emotionally involved in the teasing, it gives them an entirely new perspective. That method has worked great with my daughter and the catty middle school girls.

[seabeyond]

23. four agreements. an easy book to read. basic. so simple. one of my favorites

Last edited Sat Feb 11, 2012, 01:00 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.toltecspirit.com/

The Four Agreements are:

1. Be Impeccable with your Word: Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the Word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your Word in the direction of truth and love.

2. Don’t Take Anything Personally
Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won’t be the victim of needless suffering.

3. Don’t Make Assumptions
Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.

4. Always Do Your Best
Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse, and regret.
_________________________-


i have had both boys read this. we have talked about this since they were so young. and yea, they have parents that can help them to even think, let alone think about this stuff. talk about, feel, wallow in. they still need the time to grow into their own. even if they are beyond most, because they have had this opportunity, they still dont have the ability the same as someone with lots of experience.

and then there are all those that are clueless. never directed, guided, taught. they arent throw away.

i hear what you are saying. we are not all there. not even kinda. i tend to think it is more the minority

but i like your words.

[ZombieHorde]

24. I see. We are talking about two slightly different subjects.

I was thinking about how we treat each other.

[Violet_Crumble]

2. Here's what I think of the second excuse...

"I have read on DU that people have free speech, and that feminists are trying to infringe on that right."

I've seen the free speech excuse used before, especially when it comes to antisemitism. Those who use it in those cases are trying to peddle antisemitic crap, and those who object to it are supposedly trying to stifle the right to free speech blah blah blah. Free speech isn't some thing that has no limits, especially here at DU where there's limits on what can and can't be said. Bigotry isn't one of the things that isn't protected by some free speech thing. It's covered in the TOS...

[boston bean]

5. I agree Violet

But sexist bigotry is allowed to stand on DU everyday. It is not a TOS violation.

I have tried to make the comparisons to other verboten words that will get you a pizza, but some don't seem to get it.

[niyad]

3. it's late here, but just a couple of quick thoughts on a battle we have been fighting for at least`

50 years:

"I have read on DU that words can't hurt you unless you let them. " the reality is that words shape, to a very large degree, how we think. so, when people use words that have a deliberately hurtful, belittling, insulting meaning, we can assume that is what they intended to do, however much they whine that "that isn't what I meant", or, "why are you so sensitive?"


"I have read on DU that feminists who point out sexist speech are "pearl clutchers" are "getting the vapors" and "need a fainting couch". " (gee, I am glad I never saw THAT nonsense on this board) my response would be something along the lines of, "wow, dragging out victorian insults must mean that you are really desperate. your attempt at "humour" leaves a lot to be desired"
(sometimes, you have to use language they understand)


"I have read on DU that there are special contexts and circumstances where sexist slurs should be allowed on DU. " There are NO such contexts or circumstances, EVER"



"I have read on DU that pointing out the use of this sexist language is detrimental to feminism, essentially minimizing more pervasive forms of sexism. " this sort of statement is used by those who are mad that their behavior is being pointed out. Language is just as important as whatever else they mean by "more pervasive forms of sexism" and they know it.


Talkin Gender Neutral Blues
(Kristin Lems)
January 19, 2005
words and music by Kristin Lems c 2005

This talkin blues (or is it a pre-rap?) is in the Woody Guthrie, Arlo Guthrie, and Bob Dylan tradition....musing aloud to a chord progression. The song is printed in the "Feminist Dictionary" and some other places.

I was walkin down the street one day
Reading the signs that passed my way
And after a while I started to see
That none of those words referred to me...
Good will towards men, all men are created equal,
Praise Him!

Well I asked some friends if they agreed
That they felt left out in the things they read
They told me yes, and added some more
And soon we all felt pretty sore
You got your Congressman, spaceman, sideman....
But I never heard a no house husband!

Well some men came by and a fight began to grow:
�You girls are so dumb you just don�t know,
These here are called �generic words�
They�re meant to include both the bees and the birds.�
Well gee fellas, how am I supposed to know?
I certainly don�t feel included!

Ok said I, if that�s so true,
I�ll just use �woman� to cover the two
�It don�t make a difference to us,� they said
�If you wanna use woman, go right ahead.�
I said, thanks, that�s really sisterly of you
Glad to see you believe in sportswomanship!

�Now hold your horses,� they started to cry.
I think I�ll hold my mares, said I.
�You�re leavin all of us guys behind.�
Why no, we�re all part of womankind.
So don�t fret friends, take it like a woman
You�ll get used to it, just like we all did!

http://www.kristinlems.com/

[boston bean]

6. All very good points, niyad!

Thank you for posting.

I have a feeling I will be visiting this thread often!

[seabeyond]

7. we hear about the teens bullied with words killing themselves.. we are outraged.

wanting to be able to use any word and defend right and validate use by saying we let words hurt us, says something about the lack of principle, character one has. outraged by others bullying and excusing our own.

it is soooooo easy for me to say words dont hurt me. i have never been beaten down. i am older and have had an easy, good, respected life. ya... words dont hurt me.

so fuck everyone else?

i think about the kid that kills themselves, because someone felt words didnt matter and cant hurt if you are just strong enough.

or the wife that is beaten over and over and over and thinks she deserves it because she has been told that is her worth a lifetime. nothing matters, really.... toughen up, words dont matter.

or the man that never thinks he is good enough because he is just not man enough.... really, get some balls.

we use words to control minds. fox news, commercials. we have kids killing themselves over words

what kind of person thinks words dont matter

a selfish and shallow person.

[redqueen]

8. +1

[ZombieHorde]

12. Very good points with real-life examples. nt

[seabeyond]

9. addressing it from another perspective. always denigrating, dismissing, creating a caricature of a

woman.

people actually believe women are the gender of nags. why? because everyone says it. so it must be true.
too emotional. always say it and people believe it. look, santorium and presidency.
arent as sexual as men. a world obsessing on male sexuality and using women for their satisfaction. denying women ownership
only after men for their money
whore one way or another
women inferior
women weak


all the forever we have handed to women with words helps to create an underlining disrespect for women. that create a caricature of women in all our minds, woman and men. allowing a political party to go after our basic rights and feel they have ownership over women. if we cannot even have words of respect for women, why would we expect action toward women to have any kidn of respect. it creates a thinking that women are all that. it allows for the abuses, harrassments, inequalities because words have created us as less so of course we are going to be treated as less.

people think the words stop after being said. that it goes no further. they say there are bigger issues. but if we dont change the language, we will never heal or correct the bigger issues. it cannot be done. we have to change the view of women.... thru words, in order to be able to even get to the point of the bigger issues.

those words are the beginning, starting point of all of what the issue is. create the respect, thru words and then we are on our way to address the "big" issues

[seabeyond]

10. ok... lets look at it from another perspective. du. words dont matter... all the stuff. gynergy

gynergy vampires

are we really going to argue, words dont matter.

'nough said

[yardwork]

11. All of those arguments are b.s. and are typical of the larger culture's dismissal of women's rights.

DU is a microcosm of the real world in this respect. I agree that it is disappointing to see so much sexism tolerated and even promoted on DU when many DUers are a little more sensitive to the rights of some other minorities. But it's really all the same thing. Take somebody who is defending sexist language. Even if they seem to deplore other forms of bigotry, scratch the surface and you will find that that person's actual commitment to human rights probably doesn't extend much beyond lip service.

As in the real world, people who believe in human rights don't discriminate. They believe in the rights of all humans.

I will say that many people can learn. Over the years I've had a fair number of battles over gay rights and insensitive posts about same on DU. Some of the posters who did not get it now do. Some of them have turned out to be the most strong, stalwart, regular supporters of gay rights on DU. So people do read what we say and they think about it and people's minds are changed.

So I guess the strategy is to be persistent in replying to comments like the ones you posted in your OP. Explain why they are wrong. Try not to get angry and get your posts hidden. Try not to alienate people. But be persistent, logical, kind, thoughtful. All those things I'm not very good at doing! lol!

[boston bean]

13. I'm not very good at doing that either.

I come off as brash, which has also led many to believe I am a man! LOL

I have an especially difficult time when it comes to other women and other minority groups being sexist. I don't expect it and it stings.

[yardwork]

15. Many DUers have the impression that I am a suburban man riding around on a lawn mower swilling beer!

It seems to be a combination of my posting name and, um, posting style.

I always feel frustrated when other women and minorities are sexist. Then I remember that women and members of minority groups are more oppressed than those who hold power. It's not fair to expect them to be even more enlightened. I try to remember that this is an example of why oppression is bad for everybody.

[boston bean]

16. Your last paragraph is exactly how I feel.

I just have a very difficult time expressing it and trying to be convincing.

[yardwork]

17. .....

[redqueen]

14. I really don't know how to respond.

I have read on DU that words can't hurt you unless you let them.
Only the anti-woman words get this crap. All the other anti-minority slurs are not tolerated.

Hint hint, ladies.

I have read on DU that people have free speech, and that feminists are trying to infringe on that right.
People who trot that out don't understand what 'free speech' even means.

I have read on DU that feminists who point out sexist speech are "pearl clutchers" are "getting the vapors" and "need a fainting couch".
Yes, well they would like anyone who threatens their entitlement to use anti-woman slurs to STFU. Apparently using those words is just really really really really really really important. It should be rather easy to accept that they're not allowed to use ANY anti-minority slurs... yes, even the ones about women.

I have read on DU that there are special contexts and circumstances where sexist slurs should be allowed on DU.
Think about how hard people are fighting for the right to use anti-woman slurs. Think about how nobody is fighting for the right to use words like n*****, r**ard, ch***, sp**, etc. Think about what that says about our cuture, and how deeply ingrained misogyny is in each of us.

I am not surprised at all that people are just about begging and pleading for the right to say things like "stop bitching so much"... even though the meaning is no different than any other anti-woman slur. Power concedes nothing without a demand.

You'd think something really really meaningful and significant was being asked. You'd think they were being asked to extend some massive amount of effort. But no, all that's being asked is to stop using hateful anti-woman insults. It doesn't seem to chap anyone's hide that they can't use other slurs, but for some reason, this is different to some people.

I have read on DU that pointing out the use of this sexist language is detrimental to feminism, essentially minimizing more pervasive forms of sexism.
Anti-woman language is one of the most pervasive forms of sexism IMO. Even feminists fall back into it because that's how insidious it is. It affects the way we *think* about women. It is rather a fundamental issue, but since it's almost invisible to people they consider it petty.

How, would you respond to a poster who retorts in any of the ways above, when you bring to their attention that the words/phrases they are using is sexist?
I have no idea. I try to respond to OPs and just let the rest go, because it never seems to do any good trying to explain these things. I fail often, and get into arguments, and those who think the right to use anti-woman language is some kind of sacrament just go on thinking that way.

How do you respond to other women who retort in the same fashion?
Same as above, I don't really see the point. I don't know what else can be said other than "why is it fair to use anti-woman slurs but other anti-minority slurs are not ok"... I keep hoping that very basic concept will help, all the other arguments have been said so many times. It seems just about hopeless really.

[Remember Me]

25. That is SUCH a good point, redqueen

Especially the first paragraph:

Think about how hard people are fighting for the right to use anti-woman slurs. Think about how nobody is fighting for the right to use words like n*****, r**ard, ch***, sp**, etc. Think about what that says about our cuture, and how deeply ingrained misogyny is in each of us.

I am not surprised at all that people are just about begging and pleading for the right to say things like "stop bitching so much"... even though the meaning is no different than any other anti-woman slur. Power concedes nothing without a demand.

You'd think something really really meaningful and significant was being asked. You'd think they were being asked to extend some massive amount of effort. But no, all that's being asked is to stop using hateful anti-woman insults. It doesn't seem to chap anyone's hide that they can't use other slurs, but for some reason, this is different to some people.

[seabeyond]

26. yes. from a different angle, the fight to use sexist terms... it is odd, when one takes a step

back.