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question everything

(47,470 posts)
Sun Apr 12, 2020, 10:59 PM Apr 2020

Haywire Immune Response Eyed in Coronavirus Deaths, Treatment

An immune system gone haywire may be doing more damage than the coronavirus itself in patients with the severest forms of Covid-19, doctors and scientists say, a growing theory that could point the way to potential treatments. Much remains unknown about the path the virus takes in the sickest patients, but an increasing number of experts believe a hyperactive immune response, rather than the virus, is what ultimately kills many Covid-19 patients.

The out-of-control immune response eventually causes the patients’ lungs to stop delivering oxygen to the rest of organs, leading to respiratory failure and in some cases death, the experts say. The malfunctioning immune system may be driving the rapid decline in lung function experienced by some patients, including younger and relatively healthy ones, after the initial onset of symptoms, doctors say. As scientists race to better understand the phenomena, pharmaceutical companies including Roche Holding AG are partnering with hospitals to explore whether drugs proven to tamp down an out-of-control immune response could help the sickest Covid-19 patients. Some doctors are already administering the drugs to patients who are unable to breathe without the support of ventilators, or to prevent deterioration of patients who appear ready to slip into respiratory failure.

(snip)

Doctors have used the term “cytokine storm” to describe an overactive immune response triggered by external pathogens such as bacterial and viral infections. Proteins called cytokines are part of the immune system’s arsenal for fighting disease. When too many are released into the bloodstream too quickly, however, it can have disastrous results, including organ failure and death.

As with other diseases, it is a mystery why cytokine storms are experienced by some but not all Covid-19 patients, doctors say. Genetics may be a factor. In the most severe coronavirus patients, the disease appears to have two stages, doctors and researchers say. First the immune system fails to respond quickly or effectively enough to the virus. Then the immune response becomes too aggressive and floods the body with cytokines. The surge of cytokines damages blood vessels and allows fluids to seep into the lungs, filling them up like water balloons, doctors say.

(snip)

Among the most promising targeted treatments, doctors say, is Roche’s rheumatoid-arthritis drug tocilizumab, which is marketed under the brand name Actemra. The drug was approved in 2017 to treat cytokine storms caused by cancer treatments known as CAR-T cell therapies... Last month, doctors from Seattle’s Swedish Health Services used Actemra to treat a 45-year-old emergency-room physician who was infected while caring for patients from a nursing home in Kirkland, Wash. The man was transferred to Swedish and put on life support after his lungs and kidneys began to fail, said Samuel J. Youssef, a cardiothoracic surgeon at Swedish. Lab tests showed the man’s inflammation levels were 200 times greater than the normal range, indicating he might be suffering from a cytokine storm.

The doctors at Swedish decided to administer Actemra after discussing a small Chinese study that had shown that 21 Covid-19 patients with high levels of inflammation had been successfully treated with the drug. Over the next two days, the patient’s inflammation levels began to decline and his blood-oxygen levels increased, Dr. Youssef said. After a week, he was well enough to be taken off life support on March 23, and was released from the hospital on Sunday.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/haywire-immune-response-eyed-in-coronavirus-deaths-treatment-11586430001 (subscription)

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Haywire Immune Response Eyed in Coronavirus Deaths, Treatment (Original Post) question everything Apr 2020 OP
Fascinating.....and Terrifying Rorey Apr 2020 #1
What a horrible experience you had. I am sorry for your loss question everything Apr 2020 #2
Thank you....it was several decades ago Rorey Apr 2020 #3
It was the working theory to explain the 1918 flu deaths Warpy Apr 2020 #4
Pregnant women are supposed to have this BigmanPigman Apr 2020 #5

Rorey

(8,445 posts)
1. Fascinating.....and Terrifying
Sun Apr 12, 2020, 11:21 PM
Apr 2020

I had read a brief article about this awhile back, and relayed it to someone who was scoffing at the COVID-19 panic, saying it was "like the flu". I know it went right past her by the look on her face.

I'm going to read more about the cytokine storms. It sort of sounds like what may have happened to my favorite husband. I had taken him to the ER, and he was diagnosed with pneumonia in both lungs. He had to be intubated and put into a drug induced coma on the first night. He developed sepsis and died after nine days. I was unwilling to accept that nothing could, or would, be done for him, and actually consulted a lawyer about malpractice. He sent my husband's records to an expert, and the expert stated that it sounded a lot like hantavirus. I just found the following article about a man in China who died from hantavirus in March, in the midst of this pandemic: [link:https://en.as.com/en/2020/03/30/football/1585585053_586884.html|

Thanks for posting this. I'll never have an answer about my husband, but I can't help but speculate.

question everything

(47,470 posts)
2. What a horrible experience you had. I am sorry for your loss
Mon Apr 13, 2020, 12:07 AM
Apr 2020

I think that hantavirus is found in the southwest- Arizona..

Rorey

(8,445 posts)
3. Thank you....it was several decades ago
Mon Apr 13, 2020, 12:39 AM
Apr 2020

It was found here in Colorado at the time too, and it was a possibility. We lived in an old Victorian house at the time, and about a week before he got sick he had crawled in the crawlspace under the bathroom to fix a plumbing issue. It's a likely possibility that there were mouse droppings under there. Of course at the time it didn't even occur to us that it could be dangerous. I had barely heard of hantavirus before that.

The way that whatever he had progressed, that cytokine storm thing makes sense. When he first went into the ICU, we had to wear masks, gowns, gloves, etc. They tested for a variety of contagious diseases, but all came back negative. All of the other diagnostic measures were inconclusive.

I got to a point where I just learned to accept that sometimes there will be no answers. If it happened today, it would possibly be a different story.

This COVID-19 thing is indeed fascinating the way it can be so devastating to some, and barely affect others. I am just angry beyond words that we can't all be tested already. Drs. Fauci and Birx talk about these tests becoming available soon. I don't have a lot of faith in that.

Warpy

(111,245 posts)
4. It was the working theory to explain the 1918 flu deaths
Mon Apr 13, 2020, 01:06 AM
Apr 2020

in young and healthy people, but there hasn't been a way to prove it.

The problem is that there are many cytokine subtypes and it's going to take a lot of work over the long term to learn which subtypes are implicated and what it will take to reduce them without killing the patient.

A good overview of the various types, what they do, some of the disease process they are known to mediate, and some of the drugs already out there to target and suppress some of the disease causing cytokines is https://www.hindawi.com/journals/mi/2013/434010/ Laypeople can skip the alphabet soup, difficult charts, and medicalese in the middle. The rest of the article explains things very clearly to non immunologists.

BigmanPigman

(51,584 posts)
5. Pregnant women are supposed to have this
Mon Apr 13, 2020, 02:02 AM
Apr 2020

happen within their bodies naturally. It should be a good thing, normally it is, but during the Spanish Flu pregnant women were some of the first to succumb due to the immune overdrive of cytokines.

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