Reversing disease by reading random postings on a message board.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

It happens.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21388622
Atherosclerosis. 2011 Jun;216(2):395-401. Epub 2011 Feb 17.
Reversal of mitochondrial dysfunction by coenzyme Q10 supplement improves endothelial function in patients with ischaemic left ventricular systolic dysfunction: a randomized controlled trial.
Dai YL, Luk TH, Yiu KH, Wang M, Yip PM, Lee SW, Li SW, Tam S, Fong B, Lau CP, Siu CW, Tse HF.
Source

Cardiology Division, Department of Medicine, The University of Hong Kong, Hong Kong.
Abstract
AIMS:

Coronary artery disease (CAD) is associated with endothelial dysfunction and mitochondrial dysfunction (MD). The aim of this study was to investigate whether co-enzyme Q10 (CoQ) supplementation, which is an obligatory coenzyme in the mitochondrial respiratory transport chain, can reverse MD and improve endothelial function in patients with ischaemic left ventricular systolic dysfunction (LVSD).
METHODS AND RESULTS:

We performed a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial to determine the effects of CoQ supplement (300 mg/day, n=28) vs. placebo (controls, n=28) for 8 weeks on brachial flow-mediated dilation (FMD) in patients with ischaemic LVSD(left ventricular ejection fraction <45%). Mitochondrial function was determined by plasma lactate/pyruvate ratio (LP ratio). After 8 weeks, CoQ-treated patients had significant increases in plasma CoQ concentration (treatment effect 2.20 &#956;g/mL, P<0.001) and FMD (treatment effect 1.51%, P=0.03); and decrease in LP ratio (treatment effect -2.46, P=0.03) compared with controls. However, CoQ treatment did not alter nitroglycerin-mediated dilation, blood pressure, blood levels of fasting glucose, haemoglobin A1c, lipid profile, high-sensitivity C-reactive protein and oxidative stress as determined by serum superoxide dismutase and 8-isoprostane (all P>0.05). Furthermore, the reduction in LP ratio significantly correlated with improvement in FMD (r=-0.29, P=0.047).
CONCLUSION:

In patients with ischaemic LVSD, 8 weeks supplement of CoQ improved mitochondrial function and FMD; and the improvement of FMD correlated with the change in mitochondrial function, suggesting that CoQ improved endothelial function via reversal of mitochondrial dysfunction in patients with ischaemic LVSD.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21462215
Coenzyme Q10 terclatrate and creatine in chronic heart failure: a randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind study.
Fumagalli S, Fattirolli F, Guarducci L, Cellai T, Baldasseroni S, Tarantini F, Di Bari M, Masotti G, Marchionni N.
Source

Department of Critical Care Medicine and Surgery, Unit of Gerontology and Geriatrics, University of Florence and Azienda Ospedaliero-Universitaria Careggi, Florence, Italy. [e-mail]
Abstract
BACKGROUND:

Studies have suggested that micronutrient deficiency has some role in the progression of chronic heart failure (CHF).
HYPOTHESIS:

Oral supplementation with coenzyme Q(10) (CoQ(10)) and creatine may reduce mitochondrial dysfunction that contributes to impaired physical performance in CHF.
METHODS:

We conducted a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial to determine the effect of a mixture of water-soluble CoQ(10) (CoQ(10) terclatrate; Q-ter) and creatine on exercise tolerance and health-related quality of life. Exercise tolerance was measured as total work capacity (kg·m) and peak oxygen consumption (VO(2), mL/min/kg), both from a cardiopulmonary exercise test. Health-related quality of life was measured by the Sickness Impact Profile (SIP) in CHF secondary to left ventricular systolic dysfunction (left ventricular ejection fraction &#8804; 35%). After baseline assessment, 67 patients with stable CHF were randomized to receive Q-ter 320 mg + creatine 340 mg (n = 35) or placebo (n = 32) once daily for 8 weeks.
RESULTS:

At multivariate analysis, 8-week peak VO(2) was significantly higher in the active treatment group than in the placebo group (+1.8 ± 0.9 mL/min/kg, 95% CI: 0.1-3.6, P < 0.05). No untoward effects occurred in either group.
CONCLUSIONS:

This study suggests that oral Q-ter and creatine, added to conventional drug therapy, exert some beneficial effect on physical performance in stable systolic CHF. Results may support the design of larger studies aimed at assessing the long-term effects of this treatment on functional status and harder outcomes.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20657530
Investigation of Pycnogenol® in combination with coenzymeQ10 in heart failure patients (NYHA II/III).
Belcaro G, Cesarone MR, Dugall M, Hosoi M, Ippolito E, Bavera P, Grossi MG.
Source

Irvine3 Labs, Department Biomedical Sciences, Chieti-Pescara University, Pescara, Italy. [e-mail]
Abstract
AIM:

In this study we investigated benefits of a Pycnogenol - coenzyme Q10 combination (PycnoQ10) taken as an adjunct to medical treatment in stable heart failure patients. The aim of this single-blinded, 12-week observational study was to provide functional parameters such as exercise capacity, ejection fraction and distal edema.
METHODS:

The essential element for inclusion was a stable level of heart failure within the past three months and stable NYHA class II or III (6 months). The heart failure management was in accordance with AHA guidelines for "best treatment." The treatment and control groups were comparable at baseline. The mean age of the PycnoQ10-treated patients was 61.3+/-7.1 years and 62.1+/-3.7 in the control group. All patients were taking medication and most patients (>75%) used three or more drugs for heart failure treatment. There were two dropouts in the PycnoQ10 treatment group and 6 in the control group (5 NYHA III patients).
RESULTS:

Nine PycnoQ10 treated patients (out of 32) and 3 (out of 21) taking placebo improved NYHA class. Systolic and diastolic pressure as well as heart rate and respiratory rate were significantly lowered with PycnoQ10 as compared to the control group (P<0.05). No significant changes were observed in controls. Heart ejection fraction increased by 22.4% in the treatment group (P<0.05) versus 4.0% in controls. Walking distance on treadmill increased 3.3-fold in PycnoQ10 treated patients (P<0.05) but marginally improved in the control group. Distal edema decreased significantly in PycnoQ10 treated patients and only slightly in controls.
CONCLUSION:

The association of Pycnogenol and CoQ10 may offer an important therapeutic option with a very good tolerability that improves heart failure management without side effects.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

1. I didn't read through all of the content

(most of which is just gibberish to me), but I can almost guarantee that none of those studies had anything to do "Reversing disease by reading random postings on a message board."

I think I'm starting to get your MO:
1. Run out of rebuttals on one thread.
2. Take the major point you were trying to make and post it in a headline of a new thread.
3. Post random internet diarrhea that has no relation to your headline. The more obscure the better - the rubes on teh internets won't know the difference between a cogent argument and total bullshit.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

3. Sure you understand. It's in my sig. The absence of key energy producing/converting enzymes,

cofactors, proteins etc can contribute. to cardiac issues. Supplying them in supplemental form can reverse it. It's not rocket science you know.

[HuckleB]

5. Are you saying rockets are more complicated than the humans?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

8. In a way yes... they are much harder to fly for one thing...on the other hand, key energy

producing/converting enzymes proteins etc (such as CoQ10, intrinsic factor for B12 absorption, L-carnitine) and others can protect our nervous systems from the effects of many degenerative neurological illlnesses and they can alleviate the symptoms of CHF. You probably don't remember the poster whose wife had a ridiculously low ejection fraction... who after starting on CoQ10 traveled the world with him.

This probably would never had happened if this poster hadn't read about the merits of CoQ10 somewhere, possibly in a discussion forum on the net. The results they BOTH received were imho priceless.

If fact, the poster had said that it certainly could not have occurred if they had not given it a try. I doubt very seriously if they had been put onto it by a person who went to med school only to be told that supplements cannot be trusted and that using them is a form of witchcraft.

http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/heart-failure/tc/coenzyme-q10-topic-overview
What is CoQ10 used for?

Many claims are made about CoQ10. It is said to help in cardiovascular conditions, especially heart failure, as well as cancer, muscular dystrophy, and periodontal disease. It is also said to boost energy and speed recovery from exercise. Some people take it to help reduce the effects certain medicines can have on the heart, muscles, and other organs.

Cardiovascular conditions

For more than 20 years, researchers have studied CoQ10 for the treatment of heart failure. Researchers disagree about the benefits of CoQ10 for people with heart failure. Studies show that it has little or no effect in treating heart failure or angina. It is not recommended for people with these health problems.1, 2, 3 It is helpful for people taking prescription drugs that may damage heart or skeletal muscles.

Studies show that CoQ10 can help lower blood pressure.4

Cancer

In 1961, scientists saw that people with cancer had little CoQ10 in their blood. They found low CoQ10 blood levels in people with myeloma, lymphoma, and cancers of the breast, lung, prostate, pancreas, colon, kidney, and head and neck. Some research has suggested that CoQ10 helps the immune system and may be useful as a secondary treatment for cancer.

[HuckleB]

9. That's quite the convoluted answer, followed by a classic red herring.

Please clarify sans red herring.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

12. When you have read the Toxic Metal Syndrome, The Coenzyme Q10 Phenomenon, The Lipoic Acid

Breakthrough, Reversing Heart Disease, The Homocysteine Revolution, Molecules of Emotion, Left For Dead, The Encyclopedia of Natural Medicine, Brain Allergies, Enzymes the Fountain of Life, The Textbook of Natural Medicine by Joseph Pizzorno, and others I don't have time to check in my bookshelf then you may speak to me. DO NOT respond until you have read and understand the assignment. From now on as in the past I will not see your name on the board.

[HuckleB]

23. In other words, you believe those who choose to push selected preliminary studies as evidence ...

... usually of their preconceived notions.

I don't. I follow the scientific method.

Game over.

On edit: Oh, and your follow up post has nothing to do with the actual discussion. Just saying!

[trotsky]

10. Correlation and Causation

"In 1961, scientists saw that people with cancer had little CoQ10 in their blood. They found low CoQ10 blood levels in people with myeloma, lymphoma, and cancers of the breast, lung, prostate, pancreas, colon, kidney, and head and neck. Some research has suggested that CoQ10 helps the immune system and may be useful as a secondary treatment for cancer. "

Does the lack of CoQ10 cause cancer, or does cancer cause a depletion of CoQ10? Do you have any properly cited data that is newer than 50 years old to tell us more?

And what does this mean for the acid-base diet? Other alt-med "experts" are convinced that's the cause of cancer and other diseases. Do you reject that theory in favor of CoQ10 being the miracle substance now?

[laconicsax]

6. So it's your goal to get as many people as possible to buy supplements?

Not exactly a noble goal.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

13. Goal is to reduce the ridiculous, lower healthcare costs, improve the quality of life for those who

weren't told there was a better way to accomplish xyz.

[laconicsax]

19. Well, by making posts with an unrelated subject and message, you're certainly doing something...

Keep it up, and we'll have a national single-payer system by New Years!

[HuckleB]

11. Your sig promotes someone who appears to be a cholesterol denialist who also rails against vaccines.

Hmmm.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

16. Rails against vaccines?? I call bullshit.... that is slander in the third degree. I think I'll send

him a note. Thanks for that feeble attempt to discredit a great doctor.

Here are the rails and you have many eggs on your face.

http://www.heartmdinstitute.com/breaking-news/autism-vaccine-controversy
Space out mandatory vaccines as much as possible so that your children are not exposed to more viruses than their immune (and nervous) systems can handle. Learn as much as you can about which vaccines your state mandates and their possible health effects, and question hospital practices based on them, e.g. whether your child really needs certain vaccines (like Hepatitis B) within a few hours of birth. Know your rights.

Support immune system function: consume antioxidants and Vitamin D through food and supplements, ground, boost ATP production, get enough sun exposure (15 to 20 minutes a day), moderate exercise (30 minutes a day) and sleep, and avoid experiencing excess emotional stress and consuming too much sugar or alcohol.

[HuckleB]

21. Thank you for proving my point.

This entire quote shows that he just makes it up as he goes along. He does not care about the science of the matter.

[HuckleB]

4. +1,000,000,000,000

[kdmorris]

2. How do either of those studies have anything to do with your subject?

I don't think I understand why you do this kind of thing. Is there ANY way you can confine your posts to what is in the subject line of your posts? It truly makes it easier to figure out if anyone actually wants to read it.

Those studies could be a really interesting read... but how would anyone know by the snarky subject line?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

17. Read the conclusions, the answers are there. n/t

[kdmorris]

20. No, they are not

CONCLUSION:
In patients with ischaemic LVSD, 8 weeks supplement of CoQ improved mitochondrial function and FMD; and the improvement of FMD correlated with the change in mitochondrial function, suggesting that CoQ improved endothelial function via reversal of mitochondrial dysfunction in patients with ischaemic LVSD.

my interpretation: (In patients with Left Ventricular Systolic dysfunction, supplementation with CoQ10 improved mitochondrial (cell energy) function and the functioning of the cells lining the blood vessels - nothing about random message boards)

CONCLUSIONS:
This study suggests that oral Q-ter and creatine, added to conventional drug therapy, exert some beneficial effect on physical performance in stable systolic CHF. Results may support the design of larger studies aimed at assessing the long-term effects of this treatment on functional status and harder outcomes.

my interpretation (emphasis mine, but this one seems to be saying that adding creatine and CoQ10, when added to conventional therapy has some benefit on physical performance in patients with systolic congestive heart failure)

CONCLUSION:
The association of Pycnogenol and CoQ10 may offer an important therapeutic option with a very good tolerability that improves heart failure management without side effects.

my interpretation: (Pycnogenol and CoQ10 may be good to use to manage heart failure)

Not a thing about "reversing disease by reading random posting on a message boards". In fact, the second study seems to indicate that these are used IN ADDITION to conventional drug therapy and does not prove your point that it can be used to "reverse disease" by itself at all, much less by reading random postings.

[Chemisse]

7. I don't get it.

Are you trying to persuade everyone to take Coenzyme Q?

It's great to put information out there; that is the purpose of the group. But it raises my hackles when someone works so hard to persuade people of something. If the information is so compelling (and it may be - I am not disputing the gist of what you are writing about), why do you need to push it so hard?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

14. I am pushing so that someone somewhere will do something that gets it prescribed to patients

who are suffering the occasional side effects of statins. I am doing what I do so that people will know that there is something available that can improve their quality of life perchance. I am doing this because my dying father wasn't informed about anything that may have prevented his illness or his treatment that finally killed him. I don't sell anything but I will stand up for the people who do when it comes to a product that saves lives or vastly improves the quality of them. When I see the AMA on the tv admitting to these facts I will shut the hell up.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

18. I think you need to understand the effect your posts have

They are 1) mostly indecipherable to the average person; 2) posted with very little comment or description, making them impossible for the average person to even begin to understand; 3) often full of information that is related to another thread, making them even more difficult to understand; 4) a confused mish-mash of ideas that don't seem to represent any common theme; and 5) full of quotes from questionable sources.

Whatever you're trying to get across may be perfectly worthy of further discussion, but your style of posting and discussion manner simply prevent that.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

28. People who work on the medical field know exactly what this stuff means. n'/t

[EvolveOrConvolve]

29. And?

Your audience here at DU doesn't, for the most part, have much medical school training.

[MineralMan]

30. Well, the idea is to present some medical language in the hopes of supporting

a conclusion. Since it's likely that many readers won't understand, or even bother to read, the information, you win without actually informing. In fact, it doesn't even matter if what is posted even matches what you are pushing. The supplement sellers use this technique all the time. They load their sites with abstracts and other stuff that nobody ever reads. Supposedly, the sheer mass of it will be convincing to some people.

Often, the material is presented as abstracts, since reading the actual paper, even if you could understand it, costs money. Usually, the poster of such abstracts has not read the paper, either. As long as somewhere in the abstract the thing you are selling is mentioned a couple of times, that's sufficient to increase sales.

And then, there are the physicians or other people with a PhD from somewhere, who write their own stuff and use it to sell their nostrums, remedies, and overpriced supplements.

It's quite a racket, and very lucrative. Sadly, many people with good intentions get taken in by this pseudo-scientific stuff and spread it around the internet, further enriching the sellers of nostrums and potions. It's very sad, and arguing against such things is pretty much ineffectual. It's spread by faith and fear, rather than by actual evidence-based facts.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

34. The audience which consists of about 4 people it would seem, can read a conclusion indicating

CoQ10 may help their cardiovascular health. The same thing happened when Lipoic Acid started to be revealed for the miracle it is. Used to be that it was extracted from a certain variety of potatoes. Now it is sold in such huge quantities that Italy has built a factory to synthesize it. True story.

[Chemisse]

24. I don't mean to give you a hard time and I appreciate your response.

You might want to consider posting in a more user-friendly way, and in a way that doesn't seem like a sales pitch, and you may get more interesting discussions going.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

15. If you read my sig and realize that Dr. Sinatra is a cardiologist of probably 40 years or better it

should dawn on you that what I am stressing isn't bs as some would have you believe.

[HuckleB]

22. Thank you for offering another logical fallacy.

Do you know which one you offered this time?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

27. Tis the season to not see you, fa la la la la I don't see you. n/t

Proc Nutr Soc. 2011 Dec 12:1-9. [Epub ahead of print]
C1 metabolism and CVD outcomes in older adults.
McNulty H, Strain JJ, Pentieva K, Ward M.
Source

Northern Ireland Centre for Food and Health, University of Ulster, Cromore Road, Coleraine BT52 1SA, UK.
Abstract

CVD is the most common cause of death in people over 65 years. This review considers the latest evidence for a potential protective effect of C1 donors (folate and the metabolically related B-vitamins) in CVD. Such an effect may or may not be mediated via the role of these nutrients in maintaining plasma homocysteine concentrations within a desirable range. Despite predictions from epidemiological studies that lowering plasma homocysteine would reduce cardiovascular risk, several secondary prevention trials in at-risk patients published since 2004 have failed to demonstrate a benefit of homocysteine-lowering therapy with B-vitamins on CVD events generally.

PLEASE NOTE THE FOLLOWING.
All these trials were performed in CVD patients with advanced disease; thus current evidence suggests that intervention with high-dose folic acid is of no benefit in preventing another event, at least in the case of heart disease.

The evidence at this time, however, is stronger for stroke, with meta-analyses of randomised trials showing that folic acid reduces the risk of stroke, particularly in people with no history of stroke. Genetic studies provide convincing evidence to support a causal relationship between sub-optimal B-vitamin status and CVD. People homozygous for the common C677T variant in the gene encoding the folate-metabolising enzyme, methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase (MTHFR), typically have a 14-21% higher risk of CVD. Apart from folate, riboflavin is required as a co-factor for MTHFR.

New evidence shows that riboflavin intervention results in marked lowering of blood pressure, specifically in patients with the MTHFR 677TT genotype. This novel gene-nutrient interaction may provide insights as to the mechanism that links C1 metabolism with CVD outcomes.

PMID:
22152927
[PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

[MineralMan]

31. You must be referring to the Ignore feature.

It won't do what you think it will. You just won't see the evidence-based arguments that get used to debunk what you claim. You can ignore everyone in this group, but we'll still be here, pointing out the flaws in the material you post. And there are many flaws in it.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

32. I'm referring to the little strips of sticky notes I have cut and placed on my monitor wherever HB

shows up. I have to keep moving them but at least it is something.

[laconicsax]

33. Try this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=myaccount&sub=ignore&add=118599

You might find it more effective.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

35. And what will I do with these 300 or so strips of paper?? Here is a conclusion that

must have been missed by Evolve.... I can't see how a person could have this condition, read this and NOT consider taking action or at least presenting it to their caregivers.

CONCLUSIONS:

The genetic studies and the prospective studies do not share the same potential sources of error, but both yield similar highly significant results-strong evidence that the association between homocysteine and cardiovascular disease is causal. On this basis, lowering homocysteine concentrations by 3 micromol/l from current levels (achievable by increasing folic acid intake) would reduce the risk of ischaemic heart disease by 16% (11% to 20%), deep vein thrombosis by 25% (8% to 38%), and stroke by 24% (15% to 33%).

[laconicsax]

37. You could grind them up and sell them as supplements.

The FDA can't regulate you there.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

38. Interesting that you would go there, when this is about helping people find a

path to wellness. Come to think of it, you need to read those dozen books or so and get back to me, if you can't or don't have the time please stand in the corner.

[laconicsax]

39. You may find this link interesting:

It isn't a large sample, but fascinating nonetheless.

link

[HysteryDiagnosis]

40. Nope.... you may find this interesting... and realize that the supplements used are the

same ones you claim cannot be trusted. There is something wrong with your math.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20657530
Nine PycnoQ10 treated patients (out of 32) and 3 (out of 21) taking placebo improved NYHA class. Systolic and diastolic pressure as well as heart rate and respiratory rate were significantly lowered with PycnoQ10 as compared to the control group (P<0.05). No significant changes were observed in controls. Heart ejection fraction increased by 22.4% in the treatment group (P<0.05) versus 4.0% in controls. Walking distance on treadmill increased 3.3-fold in PycnoQ10 treated patients (P<0.05) but marginally improved in the control group. Distal edema decreased significantly in PycnoQ10 treated patients and only slightly in controls.
CONCLUSION:

The association of Pycnogenol and CoQ10 may offer an important therapeutic option with a very good tolerability that improves heart failure management without side effects.
3

[laconicsax]

42. 9 out of 32!

[HysteryDiagnosis]

43. Heh heh heh heh heh heh heh. n/t

[MineralMan]

45. Thats PROOF! Dammit. PROOF!

Why, that's almost 9/32 of the people in that tiny study who saw a benefit. 9/32. That's almost 30% who reported improvements. Those who got the placebo only had a few people who showed improvement, it seems. PROOF! I tell you, in this extensive and conclusive study of 32 patients.

[laconicsax]

46. 72% didn't respond to treatment! What more could you ask for to show that PycnoQ10 works ?

[MineralMan]

47. Well, natch!

Wait. Is that a brand name? It is. It's made by Natural Health Science, Inc. I've seen that name before, I'm sure.

The study in question, it turns out, was done in Italy, apparently. Here's some information, along with a link:

"In this single-blinded, 12-week observational study, researchers from Chieti-Pescara University found nine PycnoQ10-treated patients (out of 32) and three (out of 21) taking placebo improved stable New York Heart Association (NYHA) classifications. Systolic and diastolic pressure as well as heart rate and respiratory rate were significantly lowered with PycnoQ10 (from 139.2 to 133.2 mmHg and 82.3 to 77.3 mmHg, respectively) as compared to the control group (140.3 to 139.5 mmHg and 83.4 to 81.2 mmHg) (P<0.05)."

http://www.naturalproductsinsider.com/news/2011/06/pycnoq10-benefits-heart.aspx

Note that this was a single-blinded study, not the standard double-blind study, and was purely observational, with a very, very small patient sample. Not really a study you'd take to a major journal, I'd think.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

36. Have you been told that elevated homocysteine levels are a good indicator

of cardiovascular disease? Didn't think so... and you won't be told either.... at least not by your doc.

http://content.onlinejacc.org/cgi/content/short/58/10/1025
Conclusions: From these 2 disparate population cohorts, we found that addition of Hcy level to FRS significantly improved risk prediction, especially in individuals at intermediate risk for CHD events.


http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/guide/homocysteine-risk
Can High Homocysteine Levels Be Prevented?

High-risk patients with high homocysteine levels should increase their intake of B-vitamins. These vitamins can be found in a wide variety of fruits, green, leafy vegetables, and grain products fortified with folic acid.

[HuckleB]

48. Have you been told that assumptions are a poor way to discuss matters of health?

Didn't think so...

[HysteryDiagnosis]

52. Do you realize that you don't know a thing about the topic at hand? Also you are unwilling to even

crack a book that has been written about them. Pitiful indeed.

[HuckleB]

55. How would you know what I know?

On edit: Oh, you realize that I know enough to refrain from buying into choesterol denialists. Yes, yes I do know enough to avoid that dead end.

[kdmorris]

25. Unfortunately, I can't take any doctor at face value

whose entire website is devoted to selling the "cures" that they are stressing will work. I don't have any faith in any practitioner who says "if you buy my product, you will be cured". Not the pharmaceutical companies nor the doctors who do it, either.

Cardiologist for 40 years or not... it's unbelievable to me until such time as he stops trying to make money off supplements - until his ulterior motive is gone.

[MineralMan]

26. Dr. Sinatra is also a web merchant, selling products

and writing long ads for them, using his degree as "proof" that they will do what he says.

Major conflict of interest.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

41. How conveniently you ignore the printed page right in front of your face. n/t

[MineralMan]

44. I ignore nothing. I did a pretty thorough look at Dr. Sinatra's supplement sales site.

Seems like everything there is in support of those sales. Nothing wrong with that...that's enterprising of him. I'm just pointing that fact out so people won't think Dr. Sinatra is writing all that stuff out of the goodness of his heart. Is what he writes true? I don't know, but I do know that I don't go to sites that sell things to read about how good those things are for me. I read things that are written by people who aren't obviously profiting from their words by touting the very products they sell.

I'm funny that way. As it happens, I write business web sites for part of my living. So, I'm very familiar with using authoritative sounding writing to sell stuff. Lots of people buy things based on that, and I work very hard to make my stuff factual, at least. Others, I'm not so sure about. What do you think the difference is between pharmaceutical companies advertising their products and Dr. Sinatra writing about the products he sell? Let's see if you can define the difference for us. The pharmaceutical companies have big research studies and scientific papers. Dr. Sinatra writes his own scientific papers and books. Both advertise their products. Why there's been a two-page ad for Provigil running all week in my local paper. Dr. Sinatra advertises the products he sells on his website, and through other means.

What's the difference between the two?

Now, I appreciate that you don't have a link to Dr. Sinatra's supplement website. That's good. Anyone can find it on Google, just by searching for the good Doctor's name, if they wish to buy what he's selling.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

49. Here is the difference in simple layman's terms.

NO SIDE EFFECTS, an increase in ejection fraction in CHF patients, Protection of renal tissue in Type II diabetes, etc etc. First, he is DUing NO HARM.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22120862

Statin intolerance: Now a solved problem.
Sikka P, Kapoor S, Bindra VK, Sharma M, Vishwakarma P, Saxena KK.
Source

Department of Pharmacology, LLRM Medical College, Muradnagar, Ghaziabad, India.
Abstract

Statins are the most effective and widely used drugs for treating dyslipidemia, a major risk factor for coronary heart disease. These are one of the safest hypolipidemic drugs but many patients are bound to discontinue statins due to their side effects. Hepatotoxicity, myotoxicity and peripheral neuropathy are important out of them. Discontinuation of statins leads to dylipidemia and its grave consequences. Hence, there should be enough strategies for statin intolerant patients, so that they can be saved from these consequences.

These side effects can be avoided by the awareness of certain factors viz. potential drug interactions and dose adjustment according to patho-physiology of the patient. Baseline investigations for liver function and muscle toxicity should be done before initiating statin therapy. Here, we are discussing various options for statin intolerant hyperlipidemic patients such as lower and intermittent dosing of statins, alternate hypolipidemic drugs, red yeast rice, supplementation with coenzyme Q10 and vitamin D. A number of hypolipidemic drugs are in trial phases and hold promise for statin intolerant patients.

ASK yourself what this says EXACTLY:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20367194
TAKE HOME MESSAGE:

CoQ(10) does not cause serious adverse effects in humans and new formulations have been developed that increase CoQ(10) absorption. Oral CoQ(10) is a viable antioxidant strategy in many diseases, providing a significant to mild symptomatic benefit. Idebenone and MitoQ are promising substitutive CoQ(10)-related drugs which are well tolerated and safe.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19932599
In the field of mitochondrial myopathies, primary CoQ(10) deficiencies have been identified, involving different genes of the CoQ(10) biosynthetic pathway; some of these conditions were found to be highly responsive to CoQ(10) administration. The initial observations of CoQ(10) effects in Parkinson's and Huntington's diseases have been extended to Friedreich's ataxia, where CoQ(10) and other quinones have been tested. CoQ(10) is presently being used in a large phase III trial in Parkinson's disease. CoQ(10) has been found to improve sperm count and motility on asthenozoospermia. Moreover, for the first time CoQ(10) was found to decrease the incidence of preeclampsia in pregnancy. The ability of CoQ(10) to mitigate headache symptoms in adults was also verified in pediatric and adolescent populations.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21878067
Abstract

We studied effect of coenzyme Q(10) on 24-hour blood pressure profile and function of vascular endothelium in patients with essential hypertension. Coenzyme Q(10) was used as a component of combination therapy comprising angiotensin converting enzyme inhibitor enalapril. Administration of coenzyme Q(10) in combination with traditional antihypertensive therapy promoted normalization of vascular endothelial function and more effective correction of 24-hour blood pressure profile. These findings allow to consider the use of coenzyme Q(10) as promising component of combination therapy of arterial hypertension.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22172526
Diabetes-induced increases in total renal collagen but not glomerulosclerosis were significantly decreased with CoQ10 therapy. Mitochondrial superoxide and ATP production via complex II in the renal cortex were increased in db/db mice, with ATP normalized by CoQ10. However, excess renal mitochondrial hydrogen peroxide production and increased mitochondrial membrane potential seen in db/db mice were attenuated with CoQ10. Renal superoxide dismutase activity was also lower in db/db mice compared with dbH mice. Our results suggest that a deficiency in mitochondrial oxidized CoQ10 (ubiquinone) may be a likely precipitating factor for diabetic nephropathy. Therefore CoQ10 supplementation may be renoprotective in type 2 diabetes, via preservation of mitochondrial function.

[laconicsax]

50. What are the n values on those studies, 12?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

51. Let's see if your math is strong. Say you have 9 people who benefit from a non toxic

supplement that offers 0 negative side effects and the ones that it does produce are only positive ones. Say 9 out of 32, roughly 27%. Now take 27% of the millions of people who have these conditions and you have a picture that is not as ugly as you are trying to make it out to be.... then I do realize who I am dealing with and do not expect anything positive out of this. How are those books coming along? Read one yet? Two? Didn't think so.

[laconicsax]

53. And 73% get no benefit!

Whose math isn't strong here?

Small studies (not to mention small minorities of small studies) are a terrible way to make health decisions. This fact has been posted several times, yet you haven't picked up on it yet.

Show me a double-blind study with a high n-value and then we'll talk.

[MineralMan]

54. That study was too small to produce any meaningful data.

It was also a single-blind study. It's pretty much useless in predicting outcomes. There are books on statistical analysis and on designing valid clinical trials. You can read one, if you like. Or not.

[MineralMan]

56. What makes you think I need things put in "simple, laymen's terms?"

How presumptuous. Here's a question for you: Have you read the complete articles from those abstracts you post? Any of them? Have you looked at which journals published them and thought about the validity of those journals? Do you even know which journals those articles appear?

I have no trouble whatever with medical research articles. I've been reading them for decades now. For you to presume that nobody in this group can understand this material is pure presumption, and it's incorrect. Please don't presume anything you do not know to be a fact about the people you're engaging in this forum

[EvolveOrConvolve]

57. The poster in question

Is no longer with us...

[MineralMan]

58. So I understand. Thanks for letting me know.

[LeftishBrit]

59. Sorry but anyone who writes on his board something so ridiculous as:

'Connecting to the Earth’s natural electromagnetic energy is good for health'

cannot really be trusted on anything else related to preventive medicine.

That's apart from more general issues such as his obvious commercial interests in selling *his* brand of supplements, and his vile support for lawsuits against 'Obamacare'.