Daughter's dog bit her - suggestions/advice?

[phylny]

Our daughter and son-in-law recently adopted a dog - I'll call her Sandy - from a no-kill shelter. The dog had been fostered in a home and was known to be very shy. They have made good progress with her to the point that people can come in without her cowering, she is obeying some simple commands such as sit, and she is coming out of her crate to sit with them. At first, Sandy seemed to favor our daughter, but since our daughter is the one doing most of the work in obedience and in correcting her, she's shifted her affections to our son-in-law.

Recently, Sandy began to growl when our daughter came near her crate. In addition, they have been working with her on sitting on the carpet near the door and not running out. Tonight, when my son-in-law went to leave, Sandy went to run after him and our daughter took her by the collar to keep her from running out, and Sandy turned and bit her arm.

Of course, our daughter is upset. First, because this is not the dog she envisioned - Sandy is so shy that they wonder if she's simply too shy, if this aggression is a hint of things to come, and they're afraid if they send her back with a history of biting, her future will not be good.

Any suggestions? Words of advice?

[2theleft]

1. I'm not sure what to recommend other than a professional...

It is very worrisome to me, and I'm a huge dog lover, never fail to see the badness in dogs, typically thing bad dogs have bad owners, etc.

I have a dobie mix who I got as a puppy from a shelter. From day one he was shy, scared of his shadow, no confidence, etc. He is however part hound and because of that, I can get him to do anything for a treat so obedience training was not difficult. He has never growled at me, but did growl at my boyfriend when he went to get him off the sofa so he could sit down one time. My boyfriend immediately became more engaged in the feeding, training, and confidence building I had been working on. We haven't had that happen since.

If your daughter does not get a professional dog trainer, I do think it is a MUST that her husband get involved in the training and setting expectations with the dog and see how she does with that, however I think a professional is a must at this point.

[phylny]

2. Thank you for your response.

That's exactly what they're thinking. And she is VERY motivated by food. I visited with our dogs so she could get to know them before we dog sat for her the week of Thanksgiving, and I thought it would be good to meet on her turf. She warmed up very quickly with the help of treats. Plus, she watched our dogs and was very motivated to be with them, to do what they did, and to come to me when they did. I do think there is hope.

[Wilms]

3. As above, a knowledgeable pro may be best.

Often I've noticed human/canine relationships where the owners thinks of themselves as in charge--and that the dog, "is learning and getting better". And none of that seemed to be true. I'd have the feeling that neither the dog, nor the owner was in charge, but merely arguing and negotiating. When push came to shove, the dog did whatever it wanted.

Often enough, the dog wasn't interested in doing anything violent. So people get by spending years yanking on a chain, maintaining fences and listening to a lot of barking. But when there's a potential or history of aggression, that approach is a danger. If the humans aren't oriented adequately and and fail to take the necessary steps they're taking a big risk.

I've seen it work. But I'll also say, it ain't about the dog. It's about the human. Once the human knows how to handle it (and a lot is really simple) change will come.

Best of luck to the three of them!

[jtuck004]

4. The RIGHT trainer is a good idea.

They should never have put the dog in the position to be grabbed. Not being judgmental, just a fact. And grabbing the collar is quite often a good way to get bit. No excuses, don't blame the dog for running after him, it's those who have thumbs that are engineering this. And as you said, if they send her back she's dead, in most shelters. That is true.

It's their decision, of course. There are alternatives, but they do need to take immediate steps now.

The big clue is when you said "since our daughter is the one doing most of the work in obedience and in correcting her, she's shifted her affections". If that were me, I would be giving great treats, lots of praise, building trust - there would be no reason for the dog to "shift her affections". But I have seen trainers who (again, not saying your daughter, it's just an example) think that they can physically compel them, spank them, yank their collars, etc, and somehow the dog is going to learn anything other than that they are a source of discomfort, at best.

Your daughter may need to learn how to train Sandy differently. It may be that she is trying to "compel" her, rather than "reinforce good behavior", and those are two completely different schools of thought. (An analogy is paddling kids for bad behavior vs reinforcing the behavior that is desired. The first one just teaches them to avoid you when they want to behave that way, the second teaches them that there are good results from changing their behavior).

Again, don't take this wrong, not judging, it's just a matter of different training approaches. The reason I mention it is because if she looks for a trainer who is into "compelling" (i.e. dog whisperer guy - who gets a fair amount of bites, according to his own words, btw) she might be disappointed, the dog could get hurt or have the spirit knocked out of her, your daughter hurt further, and sandy could wind up in the shelter anyway. I've seen it happen more than once

Suggest she look around and talk to some trainers that focus on positive reinforcement, who would help them engineer ways so that her dog is not put in a position to feel the need to bite, display aggression, etc., so they can then concentrate on associating good behavior with positive things.

Really good book out there - The Culture Clash, Jean Donaldson. She built the training program for the SF SPCA, and it's an amazing book. It has the power to completely re-arrange your (and her) thinking about dogs and behavior.

Good luck.

[TorchTheWitch]

6. the right training combines positive reinforcement with discipline

No one raises their kids with only positive reinforcement and can expect them to be well behaved. While positive reinforcement boosts confidence and encourages repeating what the parents are pleased with if there is no discipline when the child does something disobedient they don't learn the consequences of bad behavior thus have no motivation to correct that bad behavior.

It's not so much different with dogs. While positive reinforcement encourages them to do what you want without discipline when they misbehave all they learn is that they just need to weigh what they want to do with the quality of the reward. And if they decide the quality of the reward is not worth what misbehavior they are interested in doing no amount of positive reinforcement is going to give them the message. They need discipline when they misbehave.

That said, people that "yank" the leash all the time just don't have a clue how to properly administer leash corrections. The amount of force is only just that is needed to redirect the dog's attention back to you and off the desire of the misbehavior. I have a huge protective and territorial breed of dog that without discipline will do what he likes regardless of what I want, and fat chance that a treat reward is going to keep him from what he wants to do. He is far more motivated in protection than he is in food. While mostly positive reinforcement may work well with naturally docile dogs that are likely to be friendly to everyone human or animal it isn't going to work 100% of the time because there will be those times - rare as they may be - that the dog weighs the reward against what misbehavior it really wants to do and chose the latter. That's not an obedient dog, that's a mostly obedient dog that is only disobedient on those rare a occasions that it really want to be.

With my dog on our walks with other people around walking past us with their wildly disobedient dogs barking aggressively non stop mere feet from us up on their hind legs nearly standing straight up even choking from their collars biting into their necks because of their owners struggling with both hands hauling on the leash to hold them back when all I do to my dog is give such a slight "reminder" leash correction that is so subtle you wouldn't see it even looking right at us.

And that's all it takes with him now since he's long since learned that if his misbehavior escalates or continues he immediately gets a stronger leash correction than the last, so he knows damn well that regardless of how much he might want to dive at that other dog or that raccoon or those screaming kids whizzing past us with inches to spare on their bikes that the leash corrections will be immediate and progressively stronger if he doesn't walk calmly beside me. Never once have I ever needed to give any of my dogs a very strong or even strong leash correction no matter how much they may dislike the stranger that walked up to me to talk or the scary loud car we just had to walk past or how much he wants to chew the face off the evil nasty golden retriever that wants to pick fights with every dog it sees because he learned right from the first that no matter what misbehavior he REALLY wants to do he's going to be corrected immediately and progressively more strongly so he has long since learned that whatever it is that he wants to do that I don't want him to do I'm always going to win.

I can't even remember the last time I gave him a leash correction that was hard enough that a person would even notice. THAT's how leash corrections work and how they're supposed to be done. If you're doing it right and doing it immediately and consistently you will probably never have to give a strong leash correction.

But none of the positive reinforcement combined with discipline training is going to work 100% of the time (and with a dog that is naturally not docile and friendly to everyone that may only be 1% of the time) if you don't establish consistent and absolute pack structure with yourself as the leader and everyone else in the family ranked above the dog. Pack structure is ingrained in dogs and isn't all that different than how humans arrange themselves in a hierarchy. When you don't establish yourself as a firm, fair and consistent leader no dog will accept you as their leader and will take that position themselves because of the ingrained survival mentality that the survival of the pack requires a firm, fair and consistent leader. That's one area where dogs are far smarter than humans... they will not follow an incompetent leader, and whoever else in the pack is the most competent will simply usurp them. No muss, no fuss, you suck, this is the new leader now, the back of the line is that way, see ya, bye bye.

The combination of positive reinforcement and discipline is what works for every dog whether docile or determined as long as the correct amount of positive reinforcement vs. discipline is used with each individual dog according to what is needed. Just like kids. Every kid is different from docile to confident to down right aggressive, so every kid needs a positive reinforcement and discipline behavior modification system that is heavier on on side or the other depending on each kid's personality. Me, I needed almost all positive reinforcement as my personality while growing up was exceeding docile and naturally obedient whereas my brother J___ needed almost pure discipline since his personality while growing up was exceedingly confident and determined to down right aggressive. Works the same way with dogs. They also have their own personalities that range from docile and obedient to confident and determined to down right aggressive and everything in between. Kids or dogs, it's a matter of closely observing their behavior to tailor their upbringing/training to their individual needs.

[jtuck004]

10. "Punishment" is the domain of bullies and ignorant, uneducated cowards.

That includes parents who spank their children, teachers who soak switches in vinegar to beat black students with because, in their words "their skins are tougher you know", cops who use more force than is necessary to stop someone from hurting another, men or women who abuse their spouse or family members either physically verbally. In short, anyone who uses force to compel behavior in an animal.

Discipline is a weasel word, often used to mask the issue because it can mean so many things to different people. Tapping the leash for attention is nothing more than tapping someone on the shoulder. It's not punishment. Yanking the leash down to teach a down is punishment. Yet both are called discipline, (I have heard it in classes). When getting into a more serious discussion I try to remember to let go of such words and use terms that are more well-defined. Grabbing a couple of dogs and separating them from a fight isn't punishment, even if you have to use a stick or a fist to do it. Beating them after the fight is over to "teach" them it was wrong, is.

There are reams of research which back up the fact that, when the goal is teaching behavior, the best results come from a combination of positive and negative reinforcement. It may be the only thing that teaches behavior.

Poorly designed reinforcement, ill-thought out situations, and ineffective training are often pointed to as proof that these concepts don't work. That's like pointing to a pile a bricks and using it as proof that a building can't be built. It takes effort, knowledge, patience, and training to effectively use it as a tool. It is only a little complicated, yet can be mastered by most people. Unfortunately, teaching people in psych 101, most of whom have been raised with corporal punishment and never examined the consequences these concepts is a little like teaching teabaggers that their world would be better economically if investments are made in infrastructure and education. Their experience tells them otherwise, and one has to be not only somewhat educated to understand it, which most are, but also wiling to reject confirmation bias, which most aren't. That is a hard nut to crack.

That said, "punishment" can compel behavior, even change it, but the problem is that it comes with unintended and predictable consequences including the likelihood of later aggression and a diminishing of trust. Which is why dogs sometimes bite their trainers, and kids learn that they can continue the behavior elsewhere out of the "punisher's" sight, and often exhibit aggression in other circumstances which, although likely resulting from the punishment, is disconnected from it and thus ignored by people who don't wish to understand it.

Punishment, or more correctly the unintended consequences of punishment, is insidious, but serves as a good example to prove the point. The person administering the punishment gets positive or negative reinforcement from the satisfaction of their inner aggression, and that "feel good feeling" then teaches them to believe that punishment is effective, while ignoring the complications it brings.

Anyone who thinks that punishment is effective should be able to prove it on a whale, dolphin, or chicken, or someone twice their size. But they don't - like bullies and cowards they always pick on someone or something smaller or weaker.

Thus, the dog owner who wishes to get the best results for their money needs to find someone who is educated enough to understand the meanings and uses of positive and negative reinforcement and punishment, and also how to train owners to use the more effective methods after a lifetime of living in a country which raises many of their young with punishment, and then wonders how they could vote for Ronald Reagan.

[TorchTheWitch]

13. Well, clearly you're extraordinarily confused

I never said anything about punishment in the first place, and it's evident that the words discipline, correction and punishment mean something entirely different to you to what I actually said though I have no clue as to why.

A leash correction (if you're doing it right) is not yanking on the leash. The "yank and crank" method is useless and cruel since the amount of force is entirely unnecessary and creates either fearful or aggressive dogs. I clearly described how subtle a leash correction is supposed to be yet you went off on a tear about corporal punishment, and abuse for no reason whatsoever since it's not in the same universe as what I actually said. "Weasel words" only exist in your own mind when you don't pay attention to what someone is actually saying.

Discipline means structure and boundaries. Both children and dogs must have structure and boundaries so that they know what is allowed and what is not allowed and that the parent/owner is always the one that makes the decisions when it comes to what is allowed and what is not. If one parents/trains using only positive reinforcement without the discipline of structure and boundaries - that positive reinforcement does not and cannot provide - then there is no structure or boundaries, and it is the child/dog that is left to figure out where the boundaries are and is confused about what is allowed and what is not since positive reinforcement only without the discipline of structure and boundaries allows the child or dog to make the decisions themselves without knowing what the parent/owner expects of them. This is confusing and results in the pushing of boundaries to try figuring out what is allowed, what isn't and when, where or how. With combining the discipline of structure and boundaries that clearly tells the child/dog who it is that a) always makes the decisions (the parent/owner), and b) what is allowed and is not allowed, so there is no confusion and no need to push unknown boundaries to try to figure all this out.

Punishment is also necessary for both a child or a dog when they do something that they KNOW is not allowed, but that hardly means hitting or other physical abuse, and I NEVER said or implied any such thing. Without punishment for misbehavior that the child/dog KNOWS is not allowed then they are not taught that there are consequences to misbehavior that needs to be something that is fair and only harsh enough so that the child/dog learns that misbehavior for doing something they KNOW is not allowed brings consequences.

No child or dog should ever be hit or otherwise physically abused. I'll say that again loud and clear so that you can't possibly be confused about it:

NO CHILD OR DOG SHOULD EVER BE HIT OR OTHERWISE PHYSICALLY ABUSED.

If the parent/owner is raising/training properly with BOTH positive reinforcement AND the discipline of structure and boundaries so that they learn from the first that the parent/owner is always the one that makes the decisions as to what is allowed and what is not allowed and that there are consequences for doing something that they KNOW is not allowed so they understand that it is not worth doing the misbehavior again then the child/dog is properly and humanely learning.

Punishment for a child's misbehavior in doing something that they KNOW is not allowed should be something like a time out or the removal of privileges depending on the age/competence of the child as well as their natural personality. As I explained before my personality was very docile and obedient, so I needed much more positive reinforcement than discipline whereas my brother J___'s personality was very determined and confident also with a tendency to want to push boundaries (aggressive) required more in the way of discipline (structure and boundaries) than positive reinforcement because me and J___ with our different personalities had different learning needs.

Dogs also have their own individual personalities and also require a balance of positive reinforcement with discipline according to their individual needs. Compared to children dogs are FAR easier since they are black and white thinkers... things that are good for me vs. things that are bad for me. There is no gray area or abstracts with dogs because they're dogs that have a FAR more simple mentality than humans. Because of their far more simple mentality a dog cannot focus their attention on more than one thing at a time. This is where leash corrections IF done correctly are such a valuable tool in training. The purpose of the leash correction is to break the focus of their attention on something that they want to do yet aren't allowed to do such as, say, focusing on a squirrel that just ran across a busy road with heavy traffic and wanting to chase that squirrel and bring their attention back to you to tell them they aren't allowed to chase that squirrel because running after it across a road with heavy traffic is dangerous to the dog, you and the drivers on the road.

The time to give the leash correction is BEFORE they lunge into the road after the squirrel because at that time they aren't doing anything yet that would require a more forceful leash correction such as if you let them start to lunge after the squirrel first without correcting them by breaking their attention off the squirrel and back to you. If you are attentive to your dog's body language then you can tell how focused they are on something and what their body does when they are just about to go into action. If you apply the leash correction at the moment their focus of attention is still mild (the dog is intently watching the squirrel and stops walking or turns toward it, etc.) BEFORE their body language tells you they are about to lunge into the road after the squirrel then you don't NEED anything more than a very gentle leash correction to break their attention off the squirrel and bring it back to you. This is only so much force that is required to break their attention which at that moment need only be the slightest of a quick tug on the leash. And by slight I mean so slight that the leash barely moves. It's more like a touch that they feel at the neck from the collar.

It's the same sort of gentle touch that has the same purpose that you would do to a person that is engrossed in something so much so that you know if you called out to them they either might not hear you at all or might hit the ceiling, so instead of calling to them you just very subtly touch their arm with just enough force to break their engrossed attention and realize that you are there and wanting their attention. With a leash correction given at the proper time and with the proper force that is only just enough to break their attention and bring it back to you there is no need to use a more forceful correction (touch).

Now, in the same situation with a person engrossed in something instead of just very gently touching their arm to break their attention and bring it to you that you wack them on the shoulder this is too much force at that time than is necessary and will do one of two things: a) scare the crap out of the person that will either make them wary of you, or b) scare the crap out of the person and piss them off. It is the same with a dog and would produce the same result, and if that too much force is used repeatedly over time the result is either a fearful dog or an aggressive one. This is what the "yank and crank" owners do wrong with the tool of leash correction: they use far too much force applied at the wrong time resulting in either a fearful dog or an aggressive one when they keep doing it that way. Using any tool incorrectly may work to keep the dog from misbehaving, but also produces a bad temperament of either being too fearful (which can lead to fear aggression or too aggressive). Using the tool correctly produces an obedient dog that is also calm and happy and that they know they can rely on you as their confident, competent and fair leader they are happy to follow.

Of course, leash corrections also have to be tailored to the size and strength of the dog. I would never give the same amount of force to my big strong dog as I would to a little dog... where that force is a gentle touch to my dog it would be much too strong to a little one. The amount of force used in a leash correction also has to be tailored to a dog's individual temperament. A naturally docile dog will need a much more gentle correction than a determined/confident or aggressive one would to break their attention from the object of their desire and bring it back to you. You can tell if you're paying attention if the amount of force is appropriate for each situation. If it is appropriate the dog will break it's attention and look up at you as if to say, "Yes? What would you like?" But if the amount of force is too much they'll break their attention but look at you as if to say "OMG! What did I do?" (docile dog) or "Hey! What the hell is your problem?" (determined or aggressive dog).

This is where it is very important that when you get a dog from the moment they come into your home you need to pay close attention to them to learn their body language so that you know when their body is doing a certain thing they are telling you, say, "I need to go to the bathroom." Or, "I want my dinner". Or, "I want to play". The better you get to know your dog's individual ways of telling you with their body what it is they need or want the better and faster you get at interpreting what they're telling you. It is this same body language that also tells you when the dog is about to do something that you don't want it to do, and the better you get at interpreting the very subtle body language that tells you that than the less of a forceful leash correct you'll need since you will recognize their body language tells you they are escalating their focus of attention and can then deliver a more subtle leash correction sooner.

The purpose of breaking the dog's attention and bringing it back to you with the leash correction is so that they are focusing on you since (as I previously explained) a dog has only the sufficient mentality to focus their attention on one thing at a time you can tell them not to do the thing you know they want to do that you don't want them to do since you are ALWAYS the one to make the decisions as to what is allowed and what is not. Once the dog's attention is back on you it is then that you calmly but firmly tell them "no". The word "no" is the most valuable word that a dog will ever learn since it is appropriate to everything and every situation when you want them to not do something they want to do or have already started to do. The force of the "no" voice command is similar to a leash correction in that you only say it with just enough volume and intensity as is appropriate. If you are training the dog correctly then you should almost never have to forcefully tell them "no".

A naturally docile and friendly dog will need little to no repeated leash corrections or telling them "no" in one given situation. But, a naturally determined or even aggressive dog will likely need repeated leash correction in one given situation with each one progressively slightly more forceful than the last one so that they learn that after the first leash correction that brings their attention back to you and you tell them "no" that they disregard that command, break their attention off you and go right back to focusing their attention on what they now know is something that you don't want them to do. At that moment is when you give the next leash command that is slightly stronger than the first one was that is just enough to break their attention again and bring it back to you so that you can again tell them "no" at the moment they are paying attention to you, but this time the "no" must be slightly more forceful than the last one. This is how the dog learns that you are paying attention to what they are doing and that you will not permit them to disregard your decision to not allow them to do the thing they want to do since it teaches them that no matter how many times they disregard your decisions you will always insist that they do what YOU want and not what THEY want because it is inappropriate (ie: you always win these battles of wits). That is why consistency is key because if you aren't always going to insist that they do what YOU want them to do and not what THEY want to do that is inappropriate then they won't attempt to push the envelope to see if they can get away with misbehavior sometimes or even often.

All that said, the Pets group here is the single best and most welcoming group on DU, and as a Host of this group I would like to inform you that we intend to keep it that way despite anyone that wants to come in here and sling mud because that's what the people in the group want and the very reason that it is the single best and most welcoming group on DU.


Finally, Ronnie Reagan can pound sand.

[jtuck004]

14. "the words discipline, correction and punishment" are easily defined with any pysch 101 textbook

No need for you to get defensive, but that's your choice.

"Punishment is also necessary for both a child or a dog < Punishment is never necessary to teach behavior. Period. There are better ways. Punishment is only useful to satisfy the shortcomings of the person doing the punishment.

You seem to want to define words to make them what you want them to mean at the moment instead of how professionals use them. Feel free, it's nothing more than people have been doing for years.

If you think what is well-known in the animal behavior world is slinging mud, so be it. Some people are more interested in what they want to believe than anything else. I get that. I've seen it before, and it's too bad, because it can get people hurt, just to satisfy an ego.

LOL. I think your post proved my point. Thanks for that.

[TorchTheWitch]

15. these ARE words from professionals

I work with dog professionals. The real ones. For the past year I've been working with our police department's K-9 partner and trainer, and trained my 2nd Akita for cadaver search. That's why I knew that recommending someone's book to the OP was going to be useless with a possibly tragic result and recommended a real professional trainer since that's what they need. Psych 101 doesn't apply to dogs... that different brain ability thing like I mentioned.

Done now.

[jtuck004]

16. Animals are where they got a good portion of that research for Psych 101.

Yet, since you don't know the book, or the thousands of people that successfully use such training and develop great relationships with their dogs, I don't give much credence to the opinion. And, of course, you added your own version in there, when I clearly wrote that they should find the right trainer, AND read the book. Typical.

The cadaver dog is a different kind of training, but I've seen training for dogs used in security work, trained to be aggressive, and some trainers use punishment, though not all. It does, however, underscore the point about the side effects of punishment in training. So that doesn't really surprise me.

Negative reinforcement works as well or better, but without the side effects. But like I told the guy who insisted on punishing his little girl, it's your choice, as long as they are smaller and weaker than you.

[TorchTheWitch]

5. Is your daughter already attached to the dog?

How about the rest of the family? Is it just your daughter and her husband in the home or are there any children as well? From what you describe this dog has some fairly serious fear issues which unfortunately become fear aggression at times. Fear is unfortunately the hardest thing to deal with even more than just regular aggression. Some fearful dogs will never let go of their fear no matter how much time and professional attention is paid. I think first your daughter needs to make the decision if she wants to work with this dog or if another one would be more suitable. No one should be adopting out dogs with such serious issues, and this much fear Sandy is displaying is a problem that should have been realized by the adoption agency and warned anyone wanting to adopt that she had fear issues. Since they didn't, I have to wonder if they also knew about aggression issues and didn't say anything either.

Seeing as I'm not sure what the family make up is in your daughter's home (whether there are children or if they plan to have children sometime while the dog is still part of the family, but since the dog lives with at least one other person other than your daughter everyone in the household must be part of the decision making in whether or not to keep the dog and try to deal with the fear and aggression or take the dog back and choose another one. Biting is a VERY serious problem and particularly serious for a dog to bite the person that is supposed to be their "pack leader" (your daughter). It's THE cardinal sin. And worse, Sandy now knows that he/she can bite their master and get away with it, so it's going to escalate.

If the decision is to keep Sandy and try to cure him/her of their issues whatever that takes than I think you need the attentions of a professional. However, be VERY careful in selecting the professional. Anyone can advertise themselves as a professional dog trainer with absolutely no knowledge or training or experience whatsoever. Make sure to scrutinize whoever you chose even if the recommendation comes from your vet. Vet clinics typically don't do background checks on the trainers that they recommend. Generally they just have a list of them they can offer who are usually those trainers that just happen to be the closest geographically. Also, do NOT allow the trainer anywhere near the dog without Sandy being muzzled. The owner is ALWAYS the one on the hook for their dog biting someone EVEN IF they bite the trainer.

What you need is a dog trainer that is certified and not only has a proven record of experience but specializes in dogs that have serious issues. Run like hell from any trainer that tells you they only need X many sessions and your dog will be cured. For any dog with specific issues (particularly fear) it can take a very long time for that to be overcome if it even can be, so make sure the trainer knows that you will not allow them to push the dog too hard just to try to get it cured faster and insist on taking the necessary time that the dog needs however many sessions that is and for however long it takes. Also run like hell from any trainer that wants to take the dog away, train them and then bring them back "cured". Such people are charlatans and have rough methods of "curing," and without the family being in on the sessions to learn what THEY need to do it's completely useless.

Probably the best person to recommend someone is whoever is your state's head of animal control. Oddly enough, in my state that person comes under the umbrella of the Agricultural Dept., but the dude is truly awesome. That's the person who will intimately know what trainers are the best, which ones are total charlatans, which ones specialize in dogs with issues since that's stuff they deal with on a daily basis. But, I don't know what state you're in, so I really don't know if the head of your state's animal control is any good or just got the job because their dad knew somebody or something like that. If they act interested on the phone and want to help you then you can probably err on the side of trust that they know what they're talking about. Just by chatting with them you can get an idea if they know what they're talking about with just general dog knowledge. But whoever they might recommend you need to find out as much as you can about them as well.

Then again, you could also go the route of calling your local police department if they have a K-9 unit. Our department just got its first K-9 a couple of years ago and rather than higher a special experienced k-9 officer to be the dog's handler they matched the dog with whoever was the right person and that wanted to do that job and of course was willing for their K-9 to live with them in their home. This of course meant that the handler needed pretty extensive training. Any police department that has a K-9 unit or even just one K-9 is going to know the very best dog trainers there are since those trainers that train both the K-9 dogs and also the officers they're partnered with are going to be the most knowledgeable people there are and will also be able to recommend the right trainer for you since it might be unlikely that they would do it themselves (and they probably charge a mint). Actually, this might be the most sensible way to find the right trainer that can be trusted to know their business since the best trainers always know about who the other good ones are. If your local police department doesn't have a K-9 unit you can probably find out from them what department is closest to you that does. Or hell, you could probably just do a google search on your area's local police departments to see which ones have at least one K-9 on the force. You'll want to talk to whoever the officer that's the K-9 handler briefly tell them why you need their advice, and they can tell you who they train with and how to get in touch with them for advice on a good trainer for your needs. It may also be that the K-9 officer you talk to has years of experience and can tell you themselves who would be a good trainer for your needs. These people are serious dog lovers and immerse themselves into the whole culture and why they do these jobs.

Another thing to seriously consider is cost. It's not going to be cheap. The better the trainer the more expensive they're going to be, and with a dog with fear issues this is probably not something that is going to be cured in 10 sessions or less. You're daughter and her family need to consider that when considering whether or not they really want to work with this dog or get another one.

I have to be honest here and admit that if this were me as much as I tend to fall in love with a dog in a matter of hours once I have him if I recently got a dog that had this much fear and actually bit me - its master - I don't think I'd keep it even if that meant tearing out my heart. Biting the master especially for such a small thing as holding it back from trying to run out the door is a REALLY REALLY serious problem and one I want no part of. However, I would have also recognized with it's seriously fearful behavior such as the cowering I would already have known that I was in way over my head even with the knowledge and experience I already have. When you bring a new dog home curiosity and general alertness with only a HINT of timidity to the change in environment is all they should be feeling and it should be gone in a day or two with the dog displaying nothing but happiness and affection there after. Very soon after that and even immediately they'll also start guarding behavior of their family pack and the home. There are no shy dogs - they are fearful dogs. And a dog that is still displaying fearfulness with its new family for more than a day (two is actually pushing it) is a huge red flag that they have serious fear issues. Actually cowering from people in what they should have accepted as their own home in that brief time period is a REALLY huge red flag.

Any dog that so much as bares it's teeth to its master is one that needs an immediate and fierce take down, and is frankly a dog I would not be able to ever really trust just with the relationship between me and the dog never mind ever trusting it around anyone else. But that's me... though I can and do absolutely forgive it's the forgetting that I can never really completely do, and that in itself would have me every so slightly fearful and definitely wary of the dog that I wouldn't ever be able to shake.

What a really terrible situation to be in! I feel so bad for your daughter and totally understand why she's upset not just because of the bite but because she's realized that this dog is not at all what she had wanted in a dog. This is likely going to be a very difficult decision to make and there's a lot to consider. One thing is certain, she cannot have a dog in the home that may bite anyone in the family. Either the dog has to go or some very serious work that is likely going to be fairly pricey and take possibly a long time and that might not even cure the problem or make anyone in the family feel like they still can't trust the dog.

Again, I think her and whoever else lives in the household needs to get together and discuss what to do, and everyone has to be absolutely honest and upfront about how they feel because if anyone doesn't and just goes along with voting for keeping Sandy though they really feel they don't want to or that they'll not likely ever trust Sandy then Sandy is going to be able to detect that distrust or anxiety or uncomfortableness from that family member and will never lose their fear and never feel comfortable in the household.

Again, being totally honest here, this dog should never have been adopted out to a forever home. Sandy needed to stay with the foster family and become cured of her issues if he/she could be before being adopted out. Guaranteed, this is not the first time Sandy has bitten or snapped or barred her teeth or growled or displayed obvious signs of aggression.

Here's the website I mentioned previously in this post in case your daughter decides to keep the dog and work with a trainer, though frankly, I think a muzzle is already necessary since Sandy has already bitten their master and for such a small reason...

http://leerburg.com/

Actually, since the site is absolutely barking enormous and packed with information as well as a forum here's the direct link to where you can check out the various muzzles...

http://leerburg.com/muzzle.htm

I really think you should get one of the muzzles that doesn't clamp Sandy's mouth shut especially since fear is their issue. Since I have a very bushy haired dog I can't have him wear a closed mouth muzzle because he needs to be able to open his mouth to pant (actually, it's kind of rare that I ever see him with his mouth closed). With Sandy being fearful she'll feel much more relaxed not having the mouth clamped shut. I have one of the plastic Jasco muzzles since it's very tough thick plastic that's easy to clean, and he has plenty of room to open his mouth to pant normally. Idon't know what size Sandy is, but if she/he is no bigger than medium sized you'd probably do well with a basket wire muzzle (my big beast could break his face out of that one pretty easily.

They have a really good video at the top of that page that shows you how to measure the dog's snout to get the right size you'll need and they also have a new video that gives you advice on how to get the dog accustomed to wearing it. What I did was when I first showed him the muzzle I let him sniff it and play with it a bit so he learned that it wasn't a scary thing. You have to be calm when introducing the muzzle because if you're anxious about how the dog is going to take to it they'll pick up on that anxiety and it will make THEM anxious about it. The first time I introduced him to the muzzle I didn't even attempt to put it on him. All I did the first time was let him sniff it and get to know it, and when he was satisfied that it wasn't anything to be anxious about I stuck my hand in it and pet him with it so he learned that it was a rather nice thing to have touching him. That was it for the first introduction.

The next day I went through the same exercise but after the petting I put just a wee dab of peanut butter on the inside of it right where his nose and tongue would stick out, turned the muzzle to face him as if I was going to put it on, and she stuffed his own face right it it. While he was enjoying the peanut butter I gently strapped it on him and then immediately took it off.

The next day I went through the same ritual of the day before but instead of immediately taking it off I sat back with him strapped in it until he was done slurping up every last molecule of peanut butter and watched what he did when he realized it was still on his face. He started pawing at it to try getting it off, but I calmly told him "no" and then immediately took it off myself.

The next day I started at the point of putting in the dab of peanut butter and strapping on the muzzle, and again he went to try to get it off. You CAN'T allow yourself to laugh when they do that because whenever we laugh at our dogs they know we're very happy with them and will want to keep doing whatever it is that they're doing that triggered the laughter, and you don't want them pawing at the muzzle. At this point I distracted him by making little creature noises like a guinea pig or a bird since that always grabs his attention. I kept distracting him any way I could think of for a couple of minutes and then took the muzzle off.

The next day I took him out in the yard, put his leash on and without the peanut butter in the muzzle this time put the muzzle on him and immediately walked him out the gate. He was totally fine with the muzzle then since he loves going walking and sniffing interesting things though he was learning he had to do things a bit differently with the muzzle on. I just took him for a short walk around the block, and took the muzzle off when we got home. That's all it took and he was fine with wearing the muzzle after that.

A fearful dog like Sandy though will likely take a whole lot longer to get rid of any anxiety about a muzzle though especially if he/she ever had a bad experience in the past with one. The peanut butter is what really does the trick though since with that suddenly it's not a muzzle but a strangely shaped bowl with yummy goop in it.

It also might be a good idea if your daughter read some of the articles on the Leerburg site. I recommend starting out with all the articles on pack structure here...
http://leerburg.com/articles.htm#pack
And especially the eBook on establishing pack structure with your adult dog if Sandy is no longer a puppy

Read all the articles on dog aggression that's on the same page unless it's something that doesn't seem at all pertinent.

On this page...
http://leerburg.com/qa/qna_category.php?categoryid=45
Read all the Q&A under the Behavioral Problems heading about fear aggression, soft dogs/weak nerves, and shy dogs and fear biters

Your daughter might want to purchase some of their training DVD's. I never have with all the free info on the site, but with Sandy's issues she might want to. She can also ask a question in the "Ask Cindy" section explaining the problem and asking what DVD's or free info on the site they recommend.

In your daughter's situation I still think that a professional trainer is in order, but the Leerburg site can get her started on building her own knowledge base and that also might help with the decision on whether to keep the dog and work on fixing the problems or to decide that this dog is too much of a problem and not the right sort for her and her family. There's so much to consider, with such a decision and more than just herself to make it.

All that said, I'm so sorry for your daughter! She must be so upset and disillusioned feeling like this dog doesn't even like her when she must have been so excited to have Sandy as part of her family. Sandy just has very serious issues that may be able to be fixed that prevent him/her from trusting or bonding with your daughter and her family. Whatever she decides I so hope that she feels no guilt or regrets and in the end feels that whatever choice was made was a correct one.for her and her family.

Please let us know what happens or how else we can help. Why not have her sign up and join the group even if it's just for moral support? We're damned awesome at moral support here!

[roody]

7. Did the dog break the skin?

[LisaLynne]

8. That's what I was wondering.

Was it an actual bite or a hard "nip".

[AndyA]

9. I'd definitely recommend getting a professional trainer to work with the family

My Uncle had a dog that just seemed out of control--it wouldn't behave, growled when it didn't get what it wanted, and while it never bit anyone, it did take nips at them. They were beside themselves, as they never knew what to expect.

They hired a professional to work with them, and after about a year, that dog was the best behaved dog I've ever seen.

You could put a bowl of food out for the dog and tell it to stay, then walk out of the house for 15 minutes and he was right where they left him, with the food untouched. One time, my cousin did this and forgot he'd told the dog to stay. They went out for dinner, and when they came home the dog didn't come to greet them, but started to whine as they walked into the kitchen. It had been almost two hours, and the food was untouched and the dog was right where he was when they told him to stay.

He was the most relaxed, happy dog after training. I always felt like he wasn't sure of what he was supposed to do in different situations, and the training taught him what to do which was a relief to the dog.

People would never believe he was ever a problem because he was such a kind and loving dog.

I hope things work out for your daughter's family, but I really think professional help and involvement with everyone in the house in the training is crucial.

[phylny]

11. Sincere and heartfelt thanks to everyone who responded here.

Rest assured I take no offense to anything that was written. I do not think my daughter in any way manhandled the dog, but I also know that when I was there, I was getting Sandy to do things a lot faster - I'm more experienced, our dogs were there, and I used treats and lots of praise. My daughter was going to contact the foster family to see if this had ever happened in the foster home - I don't know that she'll get an honest answer.

I spoke with her after posting this, late last night, and Sandy came out of her crate (daughter did not yell, scream, or holler, just corrected with "No!" and sent Sandy to the crate to think things over) and sat, wagged, and the leash went on with no incident. I agree, it's unimaginable that a dog would bite the alpha. Yes, she broke the skin, but I don't know if it was puncture versus scratched.

There are no children in the home, and may never be, as she and her husband are leaning toward not having children. They are discussing what to do, but are truly worried about the fate of the dog. I had suspected that they were not bonding (daughter and Sandy) when I visited, but I think she doesn't want to give up and they are definitely seeking the advice of a knowledgeable trainer. She said today, Sandy has been very good.

Thanks again for all the wonderful advice.

[ErikJ]

12. The older it gets the worse it might become.

I had 2 chihuahuas that nipped occasionally and they both tended to get worse in their "senile" years. Somebody warned me when they were young but I didnt (want to) believe it, now I do. I now have a small poodle mix of 10 years that has NEVER even nipped any human being (but he does bite other dogs when threatened). I really think the people biting was bred out of him ( or poodles) or something.

[Walk away]

17. See if you can find a good trainer that also works in agility.

I have seen fear aggressive dogs turn into Lassie after going through agility. Agility is all about positive reinforcement, communication, healthy bonding and increased confidence. If you can find someone to assess the dog's problems and get your daughter in to a fun and challenging class with Sandy it could be one way to solve the problem.

[phylny]

18. Sad news tonight - Sandy bit her again, this time puncture wounds

Daughter and son-in-law have been working on having her sit before going out the door since she appears to want to bolt and she was doing pretty well. Also much positive reinforcement - treats, praise, and gentle, but firm correction. A few days ago, Sandy began growling when daughter walked past her crate. In addition, when they'd call her to come, she would whine as she did it.

Last night (Thursday), daughter had fed Sandy and it was time to go out for a walk - something Sandy loves to do. Daughter called her over to put her leash on her collar, and Sandy came, growled and then bit. Her arm is terribly sore due to the pressure exerted.

It's done. I'm very sad for all involved. They were in the process of researching a trainer, and really wanted it to work, but it's not to be. Daughter just feels like a failure. She helped train three of our dogs and watches ours when we go away, and she's never had a dog react like this to her.

Thanks again to all who have taken the time to give such excellent advice.

[TorchTheWitch]

21. Oh no, this is really a shame

I feel so bad for your daughter. It isn't her, it's the dog. I had a feeling just from your description that this dog may have been abused in the past since what it's displaying is really REALLY big fear that has already turned into fear aggression. This is not at all in any way, shape or form any kind of failure of your daughter's. Even professionals don't usually want to deal with fear aggression and it takes the one's that really specialize in it to want to take them on especially for the long haul. As I and Walk Away mentioned it's the hardest thing to deal with, takes a long time, and depending on the dog and how bad their issue is may never really be cured.

This dog should never have been adopted out. There's just no way that it could possibly have not been known how bad its problems were. I have to applaud your daughter for even being willing to take this dog on and try to help since clearly that shows how much she cares. But this is just way to big a problem. We get pets because of the love and devotion they freely give us, and to want to still at least try to help a dog that shows that it wants nothing to do with you and even growls and bites you has one really huge heart.

Again, this is no failure of your daughter's by any stretch of the imagination. This dog is sadly in a very bad state, and it really upsets me that it was adopted out when it never should have been. I urge your daughter to get another dog and soon once Sandy is gone as living with a normal dog will be the best thing to prove to her that she's in no way at fault for Sandy's behavior and of course so that she and her husband can enjoy the love an affection of another dog which is what they had sought in the first place.

On another note, with this recent more severe bite did your daughter go to the hospital or doctor to have it checked out? Make sure she keeps a close eye on the wound since puncture bites are notorious for becoming infected.

Hugs for you and your daughter.

[Auntie Bush]

19. So sorry to hear this. Your daughter is not a filure.

Obviously this dog had been so mistreated before you adopted her that she seems scared for life. Poor thing.

If it isn't too late...maybe you can forgo the training for a few weeks and just love her and relax and make her feel totally comfortable with all your family. Then SLOWLY resume training.

Good luck in whatever you decide.

[Walk away]

20. Fear Agression is one of the most difficult problems to deal with.

Dominance and territorial aggression can easily be diagnosed and worked with by using set ups and rewards. FA is so tough because you may never know what caused it to begin with. The dog may respond aggressively to different stimuli but the cause could have been early abuse, neglect or lack of socialization. Also, genetics can play a part as well. A dog born with a timid nature and then set adrift in the world of hard knocks can't tell you what is wrong so you can't fix it.

I don't think anyone should beat themselves up because they can't deal with this problem. Poor Sandy will never be able to live safely with children. It takes someone with serious experience with FA to give this dog a home.

There are hundreds of thousands of dogs in shelters who desperately need a home and I'm sure your daughter is going to find one who will respond to her love and kindness with kisses.

[phylny]

22. The dog was returned yesterday.

Our daughter went to urgent care Friday and was told it's a good thing she did. She got IV antibiotics, a shot, and antibiotics to take at home. She is going back today because, not for the squeamish, the wound continues to ooze pus and she doesn't feel well.

Poor daughter, and poor dog. Sadness all around.

[CountAllVotes]

23. Very sorry to hear about this

I hope your daughter heals up really fast! Wow, what a horrible shame this is to read about.

I'm thinking that said dog "Sandy" may have been abused in the past, perhaps by a woman is my thought, hence the reason she bit your daughter twice. Just a thought and nothing more.

In any event, you did the right thing. You cannot have an animal around that might hurt you or someone else around you and this could turn into an even bigger mess if something were to happen (like someone else get's bit = lawsuit from the right person).

As for the wound with the pus coming out of it, that is very worrisome to me. Let us know how she is doing please!

As for the dog "Sandy", maybe they can work with the dog, maybe not but this is no one's fault except the person that I believe may have abused her during her life.

I had a dog like that for a bit. She cowered and hid and it turned out she was very sick besides having been abused on top of it all -- no wonder she was "anti-social". You'd be too!

I'm really sorry for all parties involved in this sad mess.

Take care and again, please let us know how you daughter is doing!

[TorchTheWitch]

26. ditto to all that

I really think this dog was very abused in some terrible way that it's unable to shake off the experience. Dogs live in the present, but when something so horribly profoundly awful happens to them it can be for some and maybe even most as though they can't get out of that terrible point in time and move on as if they're stuck in that past horrible period and can't get out.

Ugh, it just makes me so sick to my stomach what is WAY too many people in this world will do to a PET. So often I just can't help but believe we don't deserve dogs... they're just far too good for the likes of humans insane and sicko species that we are.

[CountAllVotes]

27. Sad sick world

That is what we are living in these days and people like this that do these kinds of things to our animal friends are very sick people indeed.

As for the lady whose daughter got bit, please do let us know how your daughter is. This is a really sad story where an obviously good person (the daughter that is) ended up being the victim of someone else's abuse.

It's sort of that good old trickle down effect ... well it trickled down alright and now we have a dog w/no home and a sick young woman out there with what sounds like a very serious bite on her and she might be a bit reluctant to ever adopt a dog again, not that I could possibly fault her in any way at all after this nightmare.

[TorchTheWitch]

25. Oh no!

Thank God she got to urgent care about the wound. Damn, that's really scary. Your poor daughter indeed! I can't even imagine how she feels and now this.

Are you certain it's pus that's oozing? Not to be grossly graphic, but is it like a whitish creamy sort of substance or is it more like a more watery slightly yellow tinged fluid? If it's the latter, that might not be pus but whatever that fluid is called that has something to do with the healing process. Is the area around the wound swollen, red and feel itchy or warm? With all these antibiotics I've no doubt that she feels lousy. Antibiotics especially so much at once can just do a horrible number on the whole digestive system. I cringe any time the doctor or dentist prescribes me the damn things since I can never seem to find one that doesn't make me feel so gross I just want to curl up in the fetal position and just die so I'll be taken out of that misery.

Please let us know how she's doing. You've got a whole flock of concerned folk here, and I hope that's a comfort to her. I'm sure we all wish we could reach through our monitors and give her great big hugs of support.

On another note, since she went for medical care they have to report the bite to animal control. They have to do an investigation and file a report on the whole matter, and by now they may have already interviewed your daughter. I think it's important that animal control makes sure that this dog is not adopted out again to some unsuspecting family since it looks to me that they had to have known how bad off this dog was and adopted it out to your daughter when it never ever should have been. I think your daughter would feel so much better knowing that this dog isn't going to be just cycled out again to someone else and animal control makes sure that doesn't happen.

Sending big hugs to both you and your daughter...

[get the red out]

24. removed