Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumSo, what's the problem with background checks and sales records for ammo buys?
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)Make them reasonable in cost and fairly speedy and I am good with checks on all transactions, including gifts and inheritance. I like the FOID model, though other do not.
Sales records for ammo is a very wide open term. There should not be a waiting period or background check to buy a brick of 22LR at a sporting goods store. What do you have in mind?
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Simple enough to run a quick NICS check. Because people often buy ammunition is very small quantities, the fee should be a modest percentage of the sale.
jpak
(41,758 posts)1000 rounds .22 LR
100 rounds everything else.
Remmah2
(3,291 posts)They should be able to account for it as well. Inclusive of public records.
Hangingon
(3,071 posts)Who maintains it? How much does it cost? Is it worth the cost?
jpak
(41,758 posts)yup
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)> All ammo purchases -and a searchable federal data base for large quantities
> 1000 rounds .22 LR
> 100 rounds everything else.
Your suggestion is 2 bricks of .22lr and 2 boxes of handgun ammo. Hardly "large" by any stretch.
Anyone who pratices on a regular basis is buying ammo by the case (1000 rounds) for the bulk discount.
However, I would give you that any mulitple cases of a single caliber might be worth flagging, if there was a reasonable reason for doing so.
I use at least 1,500 rounds of 5.56 and 1,000 rounds 9mm a month.
Goin to the gun range is a family event in my family. It gives us time to all get together once a month and have a good time shooting paper targets. Because of this we all chip in to purchase ammo by the cartons. We buy 2 cartons of 5.56(1,000 rounds each) a month and 4 bricks of 9mm(500 rounds) as well.
No one in my family has ever had to use a firearm to hurt anyone and we do not ever plan to, to us its a sport in which the whole family can participate in(all the guns belong to me) and something like this would only inconvenience law abiding people.
rl6214
(8,142 posts)I also bought 400 rds of .223, 200 rds of .45acp, 200 rds of .380 auto and a new progressive reloading press...I am going to the range this weekend to train two new shooters and plan to shoot ALL of it up...except for he .223
safeinOhio
(32,677 posts)why would it bother you, as you would still be able to make the purchase?
safeinOhio
(32,677 posts)it does not prohibit any purchase, only records it.
If the local skinhead militia members buy lots of ammo, the Feds might have an idea of how much, or how much mayhem they are planning on.
Would have no affect on legit target shooters.
Remmah2
(3,291 posts)Absolutely no problem. Equal treatment for all.
jpak
(41,758 posts)Remmah2
(3,291 posts)Try a good gardening or fly tying video.
frylock
(34,825 posts)JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,340 posts)... all of our background check agents are busy. Your call is important to us. Please stay on the line ...
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)can't inconvenience anybody!
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,340 posts)the OP was about registration of ammo sales, not gun sales.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Criminals don't use much ammo. The same set of bullets can be used for multiple robberies. A drive-by uses only a few rounds, about one magazine per gun.
There would be no way to track the ammo without a really huge expense and massive record keeping.
Control-Z
(15,682 posts)Last edited Thu Jan 10, 2013, 03:39 PM - Edit history (1)
on sudafed purchases and many prescription drugs?
It appears we can afford to track all those dangerous moms who are dosing their kids with cold medicine. I don't see why we can't we use that same system for guns and ammo.
Edit: to fix typos from smart phone posting.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)They also accomplish nothing.
What do you expect tracking ammo sales to accomplish?
jpak
(41,758 posts)yup
krispos42
(49,445 posts)What does the state then do?
Arrest him? Seize the ammo? Seize the guns? Put a cop on him 24/7? Prevent him from buying more? Keep him from voting? Keep him from flying? Boarding trains?
jpak
(41,758 posts)or not....
It would flag gun and ammo hoarders and make sure local law enforcement knows who is a potential threat.
They could issue protection orders as the evidence warrants.
Yup
krispos42
(49,445 posts)Um, want to clarify that one, skippy?
jpak
(41,758 posts)then expresses hostility to the local school board and school employees.
Said douchebag gets served by a judge with a protection order barring him from 1 mile of the local school and offices.
Or said douchebag expresses his desire for 2nd Amendment solutions to the Democrat Party.
Said douchebag gets served by a judge with a protection order barring him from one mile from the local Democratic Party office.
etc.
Gun Nut Free Zones.
yup
Bay Boy
(1,689 posts)...protection orders. They aren't worth the paper they are written on.
ileus
(15,396 posts)jpak
(41,758 posts)cbrer
(1,831 posts)*However*
GOOD police work finds connections, paths, and trends, and forms hypotheses without ham handed (fisted?) actions.
A significant number of the people who stock up on ammo during sales ARE associated with law enforcement.
But, yes, under current DHS policy, there's a pretty fair chance that any of your potential scenarios could come into play.
Sad statement...
Berserker
(3,419 posts)these guys? You should check with them to see if what you proposed is OK?
I don't think they will have a problem registering guns or sales records for ammo.
[IMG][/IMG]
krispos42
(49,445 posts)And frankly, the way I and my kid have been sick the last month, I'm probably on some kind of list as well.
If there is no ammo purchasing limit, and ammo never expires, then what's the purpose?
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)The shooters we are talking about in the news weren't crimnals until they shot a bunch of people.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Rampage shooters are rare, but get a lot of media when they happen. Ordinary criminals don't get much media attention but because they are common their total damage is far greater. Therefore, I talk about criminals more.
jpak
(41,758 posts)GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)They were bank robbers, and they were an anomoly in their ammo usage. Even so they used only a few hundred rounds at the most. That isn't a truckload of ammo.
jpak
(41,758 posts)Gun Nuttery Deflection FAIL.
yup
Berserker
(3,419 posts)A rapist isn't a rapist until they rape someone. What sense does that make?
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)krispos42
(49,445 posts)Doesn't do anything except irritate and harass people that you think should be harassed because of their choice to engage in an activity you don't approve of.
Same thing with transvaginal ultrasounds.
How about background checks and sales records for people buying alcohol?
safeinOhio
(32,677 posts)with the purchase of full autos and CCWs issued. They have also worked with professional licenses like doctors, police officers, CIA agents and teachers. Even getting in to the military now requires background checks.
What would it accomplish?
jpak
(41,758 posts)This would prevent it.
yup
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)How many bullets does it take to hold up a C-store? Usually none.
How many shots in a professional hit? Two or three - max. Often just one. Silenced .22 to the back of the head.
How many shots in a gang drive-by? Usually no more than 90. Assumes three guys shooting, with a 30 round mag apiece.
How many shots in a rampage shooting? Estimate 200.
How many shots in an afternoon of practice by a legal gun owner? Hundreds.
The only people inconvenienced by your law would be legal gun owners. Criminals just don't use very much ammo.
guardian
(2,282 posts)I think that is the whole point of the proposed law.
ileus
(15,396 posts)jpak
(41,758 posts)Oh I know....
The Precious
The Precious
yup
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)They only need tiny amounts for their purposes.
jpak
(41,758 posts)Felony ammo buyer apologist fail.
yup
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)What have you accomplished? You can't even prove that she gave him the ammo as individual bullets can't be tracked.
jpak
(41,758 posts)yup
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)And the odds of that are extremely low, as in almost zero.
jpak
(41,758 posts)and arrest them.
yup
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)DA: You purchased ammo last year, and your boyfriend robbed a C-store and shot the clerk.
Person: Yes, and I used it. I don't know where he got his ammo.
The DA now has to prove that the bullets she bought were the same bullets that the boyfriend used. That is next to impossible to do.
safeinOhio
(32,677 posts)records of ALL ammo purchases.
Thanks for the facts needed for that.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)madville
(7,410 posts)That's already a felony. How did this felon get a gun to begin with? Illegally, same way they would continue to get ammo.
jpak
(41,758 posts)yup
madville
(7,410 posts)The following cannot receive or possess ammunition or a firearm according to federal law, subject to up to ten years in federal prison:
Felons, illegal aliens, dishonorably discharged military members, illegal drug users, those ruled mentally defective by a court or committed to a mental institution, those subject to a domestic restraining order or those convicted of domestic assault.
http://www.justice.gov/usao/mn/downloads/Firearms%20MN_10.19.10.pdf
jpak
(41,758 posts)yup
Clames
(2,038 posts)Wally world, like most others, is out of stock on most bulk ammo. That's what happens when the technically ignorant start flapping their gums of a national stage.
Yup.
jpak
(41,758 posts)yup
Puha Ekapi
(594 posts)...don't want to be hassled by a nonsense law that won't stop criminals.
nope
jpak
(41,758 posts)Time to throw out the failed policies of the past.
yup
Puha Ekapi
(594 posts)...how this nonsense law will stop criminals.
nope
jpak
(41,758 posts)and assholes that park in handicap spaces.
lol
yup
beevul
(12,194 posts)"Time to throw out the failed policies of the past."
I know you don't mean that.
Clames
(2,038 posts)Deliberate dishonesty in your arguments: "Why anti-gunners fail?", for $500 Alex.
Yup.
jpak
(41,758 posts)Clames
(2,038 posts)Oh, you can't? Tough shit. Take your shtick somewhere where it isn't boring, tired, obvious, and lame. People like you have no problems with felons buying anything. The rest of us have the decency to put our energies where they aren't wasted.
Yup.
bossy22
(3,547 posts)well atleast part of it. I'm going to break it down into 2 seperate catagories
Record of sales: From 1968-1986 all handgun ammo sales had to be recorded (requirement was name, adress, age, drivers license number). Mail order sales were banned. It was found that such information was of no use to police. why? because tracking only works if their is a discernable pattern which you can track. Most ammo sales were the purchaser planned to use it for illegal activities did not differ (in amount or type) than regular everyday joes buying for hunting, target, or defense shooting. There was just no difference in buying patters. To put it scientifically, it had 100% sensitivity and 0% specificity.
Background checks: background checks sound good on the surface- hey, we are making sure that only law abiding people buy ammo- but in reality would do very little. The reason for this is that the smaller and more widely produced an item is, the harder it is to track. Essentially all that you would garuntee would be that a guy with a rap sheet can't buy from a store- but that isn't stopping him from having someone else buy it for him (ammo straw purchase). Even if you made that illegal, there is just no way to enforce it. Ammo doesn't have a serial number and you still fall into the same problems as the record of sales- you cannot determine a pattern difference between straw ammo buyers- you would be searching for waldo in a sea of waldo look alikes. The amount of resources that would be required to even make this worthwhile is well beyond what the nation's law enforcement can spare.
The only way for these hypothetical things to work would be to have a serial number on ever bullet. You would have to prohibit ammo transfers in almost all cases unless someone went through a dealer. You would have to ban reloading of ammunition- but the only way to do effectively enforce that would be to ban reloading equipment. Reloading equipment isn't technologically complicated and I garuntee you that if you ban reloading presses, someone would find some other peice of equipment that could do the job just as well. You would essentially have to heavilty regulate the entire metal-works industry. You would have have to treat anyone who owns any peice of equipment that can be used to modify metal (drill press, lathe..etc) as a potential criminal.
Essentially, this process would end up looking like "war on drugs". Lots and lots of money and resources being thrown at a problem with questionable results
jpak
(41,758 posts)With today's IT, it will be a breeze to keep track of the gun CULTurist nuts that pose a threat to us all..
yup
bossy22
(3,547 posts)data mining only can go so far without the "human eye". All you would compile would be an extremely long list of american citizens. then what?
Bay Boy
(1,689 posts)a gun culturist? Would they have been stopped by what you propose?
dkf
(37,305 posts)People with guns are already mega suspicious. There is not enough trust to be happy with all this tracking.
jpak
(41,758 posts)Pity the poor Delicate Flowers - if they are "law abiders" they have nothing to fear.
yup
Glaug-Eldare
(1,089 posts)"Nobody's gonna take your guns" is, and has always been, a lie to try and creep far enough toward prohibition that trickery and bad faith diplomacy won't be necessary anymore.
jpak
(41,758 posts)loose lips...etc.
shadowrider
(4,941 posts)with the police knocking on your door at 8 p.m. to do a full house search without a warrant? After all, if you're law abiding, you have nothing to fear, right?
Puha Ekapi
(594 posts)...could possibly go wrong with that?
Bay Boy
(1,689 posts)...they are only looking for ammo, I suppose.
jpak
(41,758 posts)Kicking down doors and extracting guns from fingers
without warrants
yup
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Baby Jesus likes that. yep
ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)Good idea: all sales get background checks on the buyer.
Poor implementation: all sales need to go through an FFL-ed dealer for the background check.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)'Sales records' if there was a background check why keep a record?
Might be a privacy issue.
spin
(17,493 posts)in Florida. I had to show my driver's license and sign a form every time I bought a box of .22 caliber ammo for target shooting. It accomplished nothing and eventually was abandoned as a waste of time.
I feel a better idea would be that any person wishing to buy ammunition should be required to show a photo ID that showed he/she had firearm safety training and had passed a background check. My Florida concealed weapons permit would serve that purpose. The initial state fee for the required fingerprinting, background check and processing for a Florida carry permit is $112 and the license is good for 7 years. Of course the fee for firearm safety training if you have no proof that you have had it in the past, would have to be added. The renewal fee for a Florida carry permit is only $60 and is also good for 7 years. (Of course a similar license could be issued that would allow a person to buy ammo but not to carry concealed if the state wished to impose different requirements for concealed carry.)
Scuba divers have to show a card to get air for their tanks and a sky diver has a card that shows that he/she has completed a class on sky diving when he arrives at a drop zone.
Now while I consider this a fairly sensible idea, I doubt that the NRA would agree and it would be hard to pass such a law at a national Level.
jody
(26,624 posts)If everyone is so enamored with ID checking, why not just add a code to a driver's license showing the holder is a law-abiding citizen with all civil rights available including driving, voting, speech, religion, RKBA, buying ammunition, buying alcohol, etc.
Just do everything at one time and accept 1984 and Brave New World. May as well attach a tracking chip at the same time.
spin
(17,493 posts)but since a criminal background check would have to be run it would be an unnecessary burden and expense on those who had no desire to buy ammunition.
Obviously many Christians would oppose a tracking chip because they would feel that it might be the "mark of the beast."
Publiuus
(31 posts)Most real gun nuts make their own ammo. Why should they get it at Walmart when they can get it almost free by making it. They make millions of rounds from wheel weights they melt down in their garage. It's like have a garden of mayhem!
safeinOhio
(32,677 posts)of how to make ammo. It would be very hard to control the sale of lead, gun powder, not so much.