Biden says... buy a double barrelled shotgun

[iiibbb]

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/02/19/biden-advises-americans-buy-a-double-barreled-shotgun-for-protection/

Vice President Joe Biden told Americans Tuesday that a few blasts of a shotgun should be ample for self defense, as he pushed White House gun reform plans.

“If you want to protect yourself get a double barreled shotgun,” Biden said, on a Facebook forum hosted by “Parents Magazine” as he related advice he once gave to his wife Jill, as their home in Delaware was in a secluded area.

“‘Jill, if there is ever a problem, walk out on the balcony, flick that double-barreled shotgun and fire two blasts outside the house.’”

“You don’t need an AR-15 (semi automatic rifle) … it is harder to use, and in fact you don’t need 30 rounds to protect yourself. Buy a shotgun.”

A double barreled shotgun kicks like a mule. It is a fine choice, but I certainly don't think it's the right choice for everyone.

The right choice is a gun you can use safely, aim reliably, and feel comfortable shooting. Also... have some sort of plan that doesn't mean the gun first.

[holdencaufield]

1. Instead of a shotgun ...

... just give everyone a few dozen armed Secret Service Agents.

Works for the Vice President.

[slackmaster]

2. That would be a nice addition to my collection

There's only so much a person can do with a Ruger 10/22 and a Smith & Wesson .38 Special revolver.

[holdencaufield]

6. Great Choice ...

... the next time I'm guarding a stagecoach.

[Tippy]

3. I love Joe. .....and agree with him.

[gejohnston]

10. I like him too but the problem is

warning shots are illegal and irresponsible because the warning shot can and sometimes do fall on an innocent a mile away. As a lawyer he should know better. Second, ARs are not more complicated or harder to use. If a coach gun is his choice fine, but he should not be giving false information or irresponsible legal advice.

[appal_jack]

58. I'm sure all his secret service guys abide by this wish as well.

I'm sure all his secret service guys abide by this wish as well.

Right?

Wrong.

Joe Biden's secret service detail members probably carry semi-automatic pistols and rifles, because they are rather more useful for defense than 'double-barreled shotguns.' They also probably employ lots of other weapons unavailable to citizens, from missiles to fully-automatic weapons in the service of defending the Vice President, but that's certainly no argument for further restricting citizens' access to firearms.

I own one shotgun (a 20-gauge, semi-automatic, 3-shot), and it's OK. But if I should need to defend my home from an intruder, it's a semi-automatic pistol that I'd reach for first. And if the pistol should prove inadequate, then a semi-automatic rifle would be the next thing I'd hope to have on-hand. Double-barrel shotguns are not even on my wish list.

I like him on a lot of issues, but Joe Biden is usually wrong whenever he opens his mouth about the Second Amendment. He's also pretty lousy about the drug war, so some brushing-up on the Constitution is in order, Joe. Furthermore, from a tactical standpoint his advice to his wife is terrible. He is telling her to expose herself ('walk out on the balcony') and then discharge all her ammunition in warning shots, leaving herself completely undefended after hearing a threatening noise. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. Good thing Joe has more skilled Secret Service guys watching out for him & Jill.

-app

[slackmaster]

22. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

O'nt-day iticize-cray the ice-vay Esident-pray.

[Bay Boy]

43. I would assume so in most urban areas...

...especially as the VP describes it. Not so much the warning shot aspect of it but the discharging a weapon in the city part.

But in a rural area, I doubt if any ordinance is being broken.

[DonP]

5. No recoil issue with that and reloading is a cinch.

A lot of people that have never fired a shotgun really think it's a "scatter gun", like in the movies that "you don't even need to aim".

At typical home hallway distances, say 20 feet max, you still have a very small pattern of an inch or two with a few flyers, even with #9 shot, let alone 00 buck.

[SheilaT]

7. Yes, because of course everyone needs to own a gun or two or three.

Sorry. I don't buy that at all.

[holdencaufield]

8. Then, can I have yours?

[SheilaT]

11. As if I have one.

Incredibly enough, I've never felt the need to have a gun. It is apparently equally unthinkable, according to all of the gun apologists out there, that I've never been threatened and need one.

Isn't that just strange? I guess I'm the only person in North America who feels that way. Oh, sarcasm, btw, in case it's not obvious.

[holdencaufield]

14. I admire your lack of adversity.

Not everyone is as lucky as you.

But, firearms aren't just for self-defence -- they're also a heck of a lot of fun. Try one and see.

[SheilaT]

17. I have a feeling that it's not so unusual.

That picture is beyond disgusting, not even counting how completely unattractive the woman with a cigarette dangling out her mouth really is.

Oh, and even a photo of supposedly hot guys holding stupid-ass guns would not impress or convert me.

[holdencaufield]

19. I'm unclear ...

... which part you find disgusting. Is it the cigarettes, the firearms or wearing shorts after Labour Day?

And if you don't find those women attractive, can I have yours?

[SheilaT]

41. Please notice the name I'm posting under.

While it's not absolutely foregone that I won't find women attractive, guess what? They're not the gender I'm interested in.

And obviously, if you need to request mine you are having much difficulty in getting your own.

[holdencaufield]

44. "They're not the gender I'm interested in"

I don't judge you -- it's your choice of lifestyle.

[GreenStormCloud]

39. She has a cigarette?

I didn't notice that until you posted about it. I was looking at her rather nice legs.

[Bay Boy]

42. So as far as gun control goes...

...can I assume we can put you down as 'status quo'?

[gejohnston]

12. just like I tell the anti choice crowd

don't want one, don't get one.

[iiibbb]

13. what point of mine are you responding to?

I am confused where I said buy more than one, or even suggested buy one at all.


If you do buy one. Have a plan; have the gun not be the only part of that plan; have a gun you are safe with, and can control and aim properly.


Double barrelled shotgun isn't the right choice for everyone.

[ileus]

9. Not a bad choice, not as good as an AR but they are cheaper.

[holdencaufield]

26. Ash sez ...

[iiibbb]

32. Even a boomstick is effective when everyone else has diddle.

[Eleanors38]

48. As long as it's not another butchered Stevens 311D. My "Circle G" still has 28" bbls.

[riqster]

15. I am with Joe on this

A simple weapon is a good weapon.

[iiibbb]

23. Glocks are simple

I can probably take mine apart and reassemble blindfolded... and I don't mean field stripping (with the exception of the mag release and slide lock which are pains to remove on a generation 2--- although mechanically simple enough, just getting fingers in there).

I don't think I could do that with a double barreled shotgun.

[riqster]

31. You'd be surprised.

Go to a gunsmith's and look at a simple break-action double-barreled shotgun. Much simpler than any semi-automatic weapon.

[iiibbb]

33. A Glock is so simple, I don't even need a gun smith.

Blindfolded... I can do it blindfolded.

Not that I don't agree with your premise... but there are varying degrees of simple. I am capable of fully maintaining a Glock. I understand it's function so well that I am capable of diagnosing and repairing issues on them without having to go to a gun smith.

I have no other weapon in it's league.

[riqster]

36. That is not because of the Glock

Although I grant they are good weapons of their type. I submit that you can do what you do because you are a conscientious gun owner.

When I say "simple", I am talking about the design and engineering of the hardware. A double-barreled shotgun has less than ten moving parts and can be maintained by almost anyone. A Glock has dozens of moving parts (combined into assemblies).

Plus, pistol shooting requires more training and practice to maintain proficiency than a scatter gun

Bottom line: for people who are only concerned with a reliable and simple-to-use home defense weapon, a simple shotgun is best. Other people who are looking for other things from a gun would and should make other choices, of course.

[Straw Man]

37. Simplicity.

Glocks are simple

I can probably take mine apart and reassemble blindfolded... and I don't mean field stripping (with the exception of the mag release and slide lock which are pains to remove on a generation 2--- although mechanically simple enough, just getting fingers in there).

I don't think I could do that with a double barreled shotgun.

You'd be surprised.

Go to a gunsmith's and look at a simple break-action double-barreled shotgun. Much simpler than any semi-automatic weapon.

Common misconception. If you had to dismantle the lock-work of a break-action shotgun, you'd find that it's quite a different story. From a daily-use standpoint, they're simpler, but anything beyond simple cleaning and lubrication gets very complicated. The same is true of revolvers.

[riqster]

38. The Veep was talking about a daily-use standpoint

As am I.

[mwrguy]

52. Jared Loughner found a Glock simple enough to use.

That's not a virtue.

[iiibbb]

53. He also took a taxi....

[mwrguy]

54. How many people did he kill with his taxi?

None.

Unlike his simple Glock.

[iiibbb]

55. It got him there...

... I'm just entertaining your ridiculous statement that the ease of use is a bad thing. As if some other design would have thwarted him.

Maybe if he hadn't been using drugs to addle his mind growing up.

[Tippy]

28. Thank you for being reasonable..

[ProgressiveProfessor]

16. Pols should stick to things they know about

Joe clearly does not know much about firearms or the law (Warning shots!!!)

[iiibbb]

20. The what would they do?

They are all dilettantes by nature to get elected in the first place; I don't think very many of them know very much.

[bubbayugga]

46. fire a warning shot in florida and expect to go to prison.

He probably needs to stop talking now.

[spin]

18. I'm sure someone will follow Joe's advice and end up arrested for discharging a firearm ...

in an urban area. It is also possible that since what goes up must come down, some innocent individual may be injured especially if the shotgun is loaded with 00 or 000 buck.

[holdencaufield]

21. In my neighbourhood ...

... firing shotgun blasts off the balcony isn't self-defence.


It's 4th of July!

[holdencaufield]

25. Double Barrel vs Pump Shotgun -- with reloading

You know how you get to Carnegie Hall, don't you?

[Lint Head]

27. The sound of a cocking shotgun can be enough to run off a burglar or thief.

[holdencaufield]

29. The pump action shot gun you picture ...

... would be "racked" not "cocked" -- the action of racking would also cock the weapon.

Cocking a double-barrel shotgun is practically silent.

[iiibbb]

30. But then again it isn't defensively smart to give up your position or have an unready weapon.

A bright light and a command voice telling the person to get on the ground... with a round already chambered and a bead on the intruder is probably a better plan.

[cherokeeprogressive]

57. At least it would if the burglar or thief had HEARD that sound before.

Otherwise, not so much.

[appleannie1]

34. My single barrel shotgun has proven to work just fine twice and all I had to do was cock it,

not shoot it. That sound it makes is all that is needed to scare an intruder off. It says quite plainly "I mean business".

[iiibbb]

35. According to some prohibitionists, that does not count as a defensive gun use.

And in some states, that actually could have gotten you arrested.

[appleannie1]

50. When I am standing in my diningroom in the middle of the night and a stranger is in my basement

I will do whatever is needed to scare them away. I live in the country and it sometimes takes police more than an hour to get here depending on what they are doing when you call so people around here have to defend themselves most times.

[oldhippie]

45. What sound does your single barrel shotgun make ......

.... when you cock it, other than a little "click"? I'd really like to know. Thanks.

[DonP]

40. Wow! A lot of DU members aren't totally supporting the VP. All of them must be NRA shills.

"Use a shotgun" = NRA Talking Points?

I thought you had to agree with everything said by any ranking Dem. If you don't you must be an NRA/right wing nut shill.

First the President defines gun ownership as an individual right, now the VP tells women to get a shotgun. This must be very confusing for some people.

[jimmy the one]

47. Warning Shots can be DGUs (Kleck)

johnston: 10. I like him too but the problem is warning shots are illegal and irresponsible because the warning shot can and sometimes do fall on an innocent a mile away. As a lawyer he should know better. Second, ARs are not more complicated or harder to use. If a coach gun is his choice fine, but he should not be giving false information or irresponsible legal advice.

Well shoot your shotgun into the ground for the warning shot, away from anyone visible, duh. Ooo, ricocheting shotgun pellets, more undangerous than a speeding bullet, unable to leap tall buildings with a single bound. Now if you've a deer slug inside, angle more down.

CharlieVicker Please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't warning shots illegal?

Not when they're bona fide (pardon, duh). Gary Kleck listed some warning shots as DGUs! (defensive gun uses).

SCHULMAN: How many respondents did you have total? (nationally in klecks study)
KLECK: We had a total of 4,978 completed interviews, that is, where we had a response on the key question of whether or not there had been a defensive gun use.
SCHULMAN: So roughly 50 people out of 5000 responded that in the last year they had had to use their firearms in an actual confrontation against a human being attempting a crime?
KLECK: Handguns, yes.
SCHULMAN: Had used a handgun. And slightly more than that had used any gun.
KLECK: Right.
SCHULMAN: So that would be maybe 55, 56 people?
KLECK: Something like that, yeah.
SCHULMAN: Okay. I can just hear critics saying that 50 or 55 people responding that they used their gun and you're projecting it out to figures of around 2 million, 2-1/2 million gun defenses. Why is that statistically valid?
KLECK (just a, starting to, TAPDANCE!): Well, that's one reason why we also had a five-year recollection period. We get a much larger raw number of people saying, "Yes, I had a defensive use." It doesn't work out to be as many....

Oh, where was I? oh yes, warning shots fired:

SCHULMAN: Let's talk about how the guns were actually used in order to accomplish the defense. How many people, for example, had to merely show the gun, as opposed to how many had to fire a warning shot, as to how many actually had to attempt to shoot or shoot their attacker?
KLECK: We got all of the details about everything that people could have done with a gun from as mild an action as merely verbally referring to the gun on up to actually shooting somebody.
SCHULMAN: Could you give me the percentages?
KLECK: You have to keep in mind that it's quite possible for people to have done more than one of these things since they could obviously both verbally refer to the gun and point it at somebody or even shoot it.
KLECK: 54% of the defensive gun uses involved somebody verbally referring to the gun. 47%involved the gun being pointed at the criminal. 22% involved the gun being fired. 14% involved the gun being fired at somebody, meaning it wasn't just a warning shot; the defender was trying to shoot the criminal. Whether they succeeded or not is another matter but they were trying to shoot a criminal. And then in 8% they actually did wound or kill the offender.
SCHULMAN: In 8% wounded or killed. You don't have it broken down beyond that?
KLECK: Wound versus kill? No. Again that was thought to be too sensitive a question. Although we did have, I think, two people who freely offered the information that they had, indeed, killed someone. Keep in mind that the 8% figure is based on so few cases that you have to interpret it with great caution. [/i http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/kleck.interview.html

Hahaha! 'so few cases' - that's for sure gary! cause 8% wounded or killed was about 4 or 5 total people (2 killed) shooting or wounding in the whole junky study! and extrapolating that out meant ~200,000 gunshot injuries for that year of the study, b b b but only 100,000 reported gunshot wounds that year!
Phantom Gunshot Victims - HEAL THYSELVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Eleanors38]

49. Imagine! Joe Biden engenders a debate over proper home-defense guns!

[Dr_Scholl]

51. Biden needs to stop with these types of comments.

It's not helping.

He's just coming off as pretentious and condescending to gun owners

[cherokeeprogressive]

56. Fire two blasts, look the intruder in the eye, then say "TAG! I'm it!" and run.

Hopefully the intruder won't take the empty shotgun from your hands and beat you to fucking death with it.

Nice going Joe. Point the shotgun outside the house and pull the trigger. Hope you don't hit anything or anyone who isn't doing you harm.

Sometimes he really needs to keep his mouth shut.

[Jenoch]

59. What is interesting about

Vice-president Biden's advice is that shotguns are used in crimes much more often than are AR-15s.

[The Green Manalishi]

60. Probably the best choice for me.

Kids in every direction from my house.

A basic 12G pump with the first round birdshot and the rest buckshot. (If I used my 300 Win Mag it would be deadly several houses away in each direction. Much less chance of something bad happening. OF course I would just as soon let a thief TAKE anything I have, I've nothing worth taking a human live over (does anybody?). ) There in a non zero probability of a violent and deranged person attempting to cause me harm, and also a non zero probability of temporary societal breakdown. Cheap insurance and, like fire insurance, you hope the hell to never use it.

And cheap. Usually between 200 and 300 dollars. and the ammo is cheap and readily available. For the cost of that Glock one could have the shotgun and five or six dozen boxes of ammo. Aint no gun in the world worth a crap if you aren't comfortable with it's use.

Plus there is NO way it can discharge until you 'rack' it. I personally believe that it's just a cliche that the racking sound of a pump is the one sound that will scare the crap out of even the most hardened con, but I also know if *I* heard that sound my only question would be to either run like hell or do whatever the person holding that thing said.

[Yavapai]

62. I guess if you could get the person/persons breaking your door down to sign a contract to just steal

Things, and not harm anyone they should be left alone. But how do you know their intentions in advance?

First round birdshot??? Guess you could aim towards their eyes, that might stop them...

Next round 00buckshot. Have you ever seen what 9 pellets of lead the size of 9mm bullets can do. In a house it would probably go right on through the drywall and destroy whoever happens to be living in there.

I much prefer my mini-14 or my AR-15 as the .223 round tends to not penetrate walls and kill people sleeping in the next room. It is a safety issue that should be considered before you run out and take Joe's advice. Thinking these senerios through before the shit happens is a real good idea. Wish we had the money to construct a safe room as that would be an ideal solution.

By the way, I have several fire extinguishers throughout my home, I also hope never to have to use them or an AR-15 either.

But I do agree, there is nothing like the sound of racking a 12 gauge pump to give pause.

[The Green Manalishi]

63. Well, I always try

to give the opposing opinion it's strongest possible case in the best possible light.

IMHO just because there is a continuum between holed up in a compound with .50 caliber machine guns shooting at black helicopters or mailmen on one hand and sitting impotently by whilst a psycho or general scum ties you up and kills you does not mean one has to fall for the 'slippery slope' fallacy and say we can make no law at all.

I fall into the category of having no problem with Bad people being ventilated if they are doing bad things to people they presume are unarmed, easy prey. That doesn't mean that any and everyone should have a gun anymore than any or everyone should have a driver's license.

A different way of saying the same thing is I don't really care about even the most valuable steal-able items enough to feel justified in killing or permanently injuring another human being, but if someone means me or my wife harm then there is no ethical obligation to not defend oneself. As to penetrating danger, what you state is quite contrary to everything I've read, but I've been wrong before.

[kudzu22]

61. Double barrel, Joe?

That's an assault shotgun. You don't need more than one barrel. In fact you don't even need ammo. Just open the door and yell, "BANG". That should scare off any bad guy.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

64. Hey Biden, just issue me one and I will be there for the drills. Thanks

[aikoaiko]

65. And, don't forget Joe, she should yell, "this is my boom stick!!!"

And all will be well.

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