Fri Dec 16, 2011, 11:59 PM

ellisonz (27,297 posts)

Point Click, Fire: An Undercover Investigation of Illegal Online Gun Sales

On December 14, 2011, the City of New York announced a first-of-its-kind undercover investigation of illegal online gun sales. The recordings below provide actual audio from the investigation, which covered 125 sellers from 14 states advertising on 10 websites.

The investigation uncovered a vast and unregulated online market for illegal guns. City investigators found:

62 percent of online sellers agreed to sell guns to investigators posing as buyers who couldn’t pass a gun background check – a felony under federal law.

82 percent of sellers on Craigslist agreed to sell guns to people they believed to be prohibited purchasers – though the website prohibits online firearms sales.

The accompanying report - Point Click, Fire: An Undercover Investigation of Illegal Online Gun Sales (PDF) - documents the extent of the online gun market, details the City’s investigative techniques, and offers recommendations on how illegal online sales can be prevented.

For media inquiries about the investigation, contact the New York City Mayor's office at 212-788-2958.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/cjc/html/news/gun.shtml

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What do you think of the City of New York's findings? Does this investigation change the way you think about the firearms industry? What do you think, if anything, ought to change with our firearms laws?

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391 replies	Author	Time	Post
Point Click, Fire: An Undercover Investigation of Illegal Online Gun Sales (Original post)	ellisonz	Dec 2011	OP
did they report these to the ATF	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#1
Gun control advocates honest? Like the "assault rifle" that wasn't an assault rifle?	friendly_iconoclast	Dec 2011	#2
Who says I'm a Bloomberg fan...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#6
define best	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#8
Yes.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#10
Um...	Straw Man	Dec 2011	#12
If you'd like to believe I have a sketchy grasp...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#16
no one is saying that	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#20
Just an old piece of paper on which our government is founded.	PavePusher	Dec 2011	#75
"Why should firearms be oh so special?" - Uhm, becuase they are SPECIFICALLY mentioned as a Right	cleanhippie	Dec 2011	#94
Within the context of "a well regulated Militia"	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#146
No, the operative clause in the Second is...	SteveW	Dec 2011	#156
Volokh is a svengali.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#157
How old are you?	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#164
How old are you?	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#167
How old are you?	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#169
what slander?	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#171
Dude, one day you'll see the light.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#172
but first	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#173
Yeah it is that time of the year...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#174
No, just one of many, indeed most, scholars who hold an individual right...	SteveW	Dec 2011	#321
I'm sorry.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#326
"15%" Creating numbers, now? nt	SteveW	Dec 2011	#364
No more than the claim...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#369
I wish you had access to the ability to comprehend	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#373
So where did you get that "15%" from? You can find sources...	SteveW	Dec 2011	#380
You can try to argue that nonsense if you want, but you asked a question, and now you know WHY...	cleanhippie	Dec 2011	#165
A "well regulated" right.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#166
regulated in 18th Century meant equipped so	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#168
I think that could be taken to mean a couple clear things...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#170
OMG! You are actually quoting a 1999 article that uses Michael Bellisles as the "expert"!	DonP	Dec 2011	#181
At least I'm not cuddling with Charlton Heston...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#184
Normally ignorance is a curable condition, but in your case it appears to be hopeless	DonP	Dec 2011	#185
Ahh the arrogance, anger, and vitriol of denialists...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#186
a lot of flaws in the study	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#187
From your own link:	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#188
narrow minded?	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#198
Nobody reasonably expects a criminologist to be an expert on emergency medicine.	friendly_iconoclast	Dec 2011	#199
When establishing "restrictions," be aware of the Second Amendment.	SteveW	Dec 2011	#147
"a well regulated Militia"	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#149
I have read many sources, current and historical. You are wrong.	SteveW	Dec 2011	#158
Your position is ahistorical.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#320
If you want to go by that...	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#323
The right thing is having half a dozen handguns?	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#325
I'll own as many as I wish	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#366
I can make a mockery of anyone who argues such silliness.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#367
Go for it.	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#371
Your points are simplistic, circular, and ahistorical...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#372
I wonder if you even know what that sentence means....	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#374
Interesting, can't say I disagree with the content. Your point? nt	SteveW	Dec 2011	#365
Regulation of the Militia...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#368
Once again....	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#370
Now you're disagreeing with our ownself within you're own argument.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#375
You need to check up on what "well-regulated" meant...	SteveW	Dec 2011	#381
Oh I've checked...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#382
Like in Kelo v. New London, where property was taken for corporate enrichment? It feels good.	friendly_iconoclast	Dec 2011	#383
Yes. I agree with that decision.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#386
Didn't you just quote Heller in another thread? Reallly, pal....	SteveW	Dec 2011	#384
Oh my...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#385
So, do you wish to do away with the militia and the laws governing them?	SteveW	Dec 2011	#387
I wish to view the right to bear arms as connected with official militia service.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#388
I'm sure you do, but you would still be wrong...	SteveW	Dec 2011	#389
Why, yes he did- approvingly.	friendly_iconoclast	Dec 2011	#391
"Well regulated" means well equipped and trained	hack89	Dec 2011	#307
"...but that's not seen as harassment of law-abiding citizens..."	HALO141	Dec 2011	#212
Really? What other products require and an FBI background check before sale?	DonP	Dec 2011	#13
FDA, USDA, OHSA, IRS etc...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#17
So, you bought a gun with no backgorund check then, interesting for a control supporter	DonP	Dec 2011	#24
Have you ever killed a man in combat?	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#27
Door gunner in the 1st Cav, 17 th Airmobile out of Phu Loi	DonP	Dec 2011	#32
So did no one else back home have any basis for thinking the war was wrong?	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#42
You do know that violence in the US is at a 35 year low, right? Your friend nonwithstanding.	DonP	Dec 2011	#58
Yes I do.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#60
So, based on your approach, as a man I should be able to dictate abortion law, right?	DonP	Dec 2011	#63
I don't see the point of the AWB	hack89	Dec 2011	#73
And of course we can trust the police implicitly with our civil rights	hack89	Dec 2011	#88
"mass weapons distrobution"	PavePusher	Dec 2011	#77
So you would be happier is she had been robbed at knife point?	GreenStormCloud	Dec 2011	#114
Yes.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#118
"Knife's are less prone to accidents."	EX500rider	Dec 2011	#122
In real life, knife robberies are more violent, and produce more injuries.	GreenStormCloud	Dec 2011	#125
I just cut myself today with a bread knife	DissedByBush	Dec 2011	#131
Which one is more prone to fatal accidents?	Starboard Tack	Dec 2011	#223
Its not tracked...	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#225
What's not tracked?	Starboard Tack	Dec 2011	#247
Accidental death by knives specifically.	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#302
Boy, you're grasping at straws now.	Starboard Tack	Dec 2011	#314
Not hardly	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#316
1150 accidental gun deaths a year is rare?	Starboard Tack	Dec 2011	#319
Can you do math?	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#324
That wasn't the statement n/t	DissedByBush	Dec 2011	#280
No, it was my question. Care to respond?	Starboard Tack	Dec 2011	#292
Since the forum is about guns	DissedByBush	Dec 2011	#312
Knife vs gun attack	one-eyed fat man	Dec 2011	#308
And a former coworker of mine was repeatedly stabbed in the abdomen...	Marengo	Dec 2011	#138
What does that have to do with the topic at hand? n/t	PavePusher	Dec 2011	#76
Non sequitur. You were asked very specifically, yet you dodge...	cleanhippie	Dec 2011	#95
ATF...	Straw Man	Dec 2011	#25
I think they should impinge more.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#29
You're educating yourself a bit -- that's a start.	Straw Man	Dec 2011	#124
Uh, the "Gungeon" is made up of individuals: Ask them...	SteveW	Dec 2011	#150
:sarcasm:	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#151
I take it you are out of juice? Visit the grocer. Oh! :sarcasm:	SteveW	Dec 2011	#159
Did you mean to say you don't own a firearm?	Marengo	Dec 2011	#89
Typo.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#99
You claim to reside in California	one-eyed fat man	Dec 2011	#309
"Why are firearms so special?" Because your right to them is a Constitutional right.	SteveW	Dec 2011	#390
And there is your problem-you don't know the actual laws, only what others have told you about them.	friendly_iconoclast	Dec 2011	#18
I think I've been fairly specific...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#19
You're the one that wants changes- so explain those you deem necessary.	friendly_iconoclast	Dec 2011	#22
...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#26
That's interesting, but rifles of all sorts are used in less than 3% of crimes.	friendly_iconoclast	Dec 2011	#30
With new extended magazine clips...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#35
Tsk, tsk. The search function is not your friend on this one:	friendly_iconoclast	Dec 2011	#46
You must have missed my post #10 above.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#51
I believe you are less concerned with preventing gun crime and more in preventing gun ownership.	friendly_iconoclast	Dec 2011	#55
Now, now, you forget that gun control supporters support Bloomie and Scott Walker	DonP	Dec 2011	#93
You weren't here for a discussion.	PavePusher	Dec 2011	#81
What's the point of the assault weapons ban?	hack89	Dec 2011	#90
a few points	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#52
"extended magazine clips".... You are parroting fear-mongering buzz words.....	PavePusher	Dec 2011	#80
Under the expired assault weapons ban high capacity magazines were never banned...	spin	Dec 2011	#92
Irrelevent to the question posed to you. Dodge. n/t	PavePusher	Dec 2011	#79
You do realize that if the 1994 AWB had been reauthorized it would not have prevented Loughner...	aikoaiko	Dec 2011	#87
Because the people like those in this thread...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#103
There are good arguments and bad arguments (aka pollution) on both sides.	aikoaiko	Dec 2011	#107
I don't disagree.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#108
I'm sure you must mean; "In light of the rapidly shrinking violence in this country" right?	DonP	Dec 2011	#111
They're pandering...and I think it's shameful.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#242
WHO is pandering?	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#248
Who's using talking points?	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#250
Please demonstrate the casual link between gun control and lower crime.	PavePusher	Dec 2011	#257
Ok.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#261
In other words: There is no evidence that more gun control reduces crime. n/t	PavePusher	Dec 2011	#265
Actually, there's tremendous correlation and causation is obvious.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#266
Yet you can't cite to a study that stands up to scrutiny.	PavePusher	Dec 2011	#274
Sure there is and that's why it's such a popular thing for politicians to support	DonP	Dec 2011	#284
Circular argument.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#289
read the whole page n/t	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#291
So are you saying both pro and anti gun control arguments are circular...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#293
start off with	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#23
It's a categorization.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#31
in the context of	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#34
It's a bit harder to kill a lot of people real fast with a knife obviously...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#37
it is even easier with	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#41
And ammonium nitrate has been pretty damn well controlled as of late in this country...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#43
guilt by association?	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#45
Gun culture breeds this sort of militancy...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#48
don't know much about the gun culture do you?	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#54
Is there something I missed...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#102
Most of it was guns in general	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#113
"military grade weapons"? Which ones would those be?	PavePusher	Dec 2011	#141
Don't be dense	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#202
How about you not be dense?	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#206
More rounds, ease of reloading.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#211
you know your firearms pretty well?	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#251
Nice act.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#252
A light fisking:	PavePusher	Dec 2011	#254
Hmmm, no rebuttal?	PavePusher	Dec 2011	#343
Didn't bother.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#344
Coherency and relevancy would help your cause.	PavePusher	Dec 2011	#345
Ok.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#346
since these .50 BMG	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#348
Law enforcement.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#350
I stand corrected	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#352
They're still rare.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#354
they were?	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#355
No. But a substantial portion of them do...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#357
Really? Then name one of those Texas or Arizona stores that provide	friendly_iconoclast	Dec 2011	#360
No response. Why am I not the least bit surprised?	friendly_iconoclast	Dec 2011	#376
Can you prove that?	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#362
They need them because urban intellectuals like yourself	MicaelS	Dec 2011	#196
That sounds like the logic of...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#201
Arguably, I need weapons	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#207
And using that logic... "Do you know Michael Bloomberg's background?	friendly_iconoclast	Dec 2011	#49
No it really hasnt.	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#190
You bought ammonium nitrate for a purpose other than agriculture?	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#204
Purpose does not matter	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#208
Ehhh....	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#216
If they're not implemented, they don't exist	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#218
it has been done	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#123
Box cutters. nt	Remmah2	Dec 2011	#197
I don't which dictionary you're using...	Euromutt	Dec 2011	#66
Merriam-Webster.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#68
Nice to know. It's still wrong.	Euromutt	Dec 2011	#71
Legal definitions are not available in Merriam-Webster	pipoman	Dec 2011	#78
Give me an argument for why you shouldn't have one of those then...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#101
Except actual statistics show	pipoman	Dec 2011	#72
Logically, greater regulation would produce less destructive violent crime.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#100
Your logic is wrong. Greater regulation increases the violence level.	GreenStormCloud	Dec 2011	#119
What happens when someone's mini-arsenal...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#121
I will determine my needs, not you.	GreenStormCloud	Dec 2011	#126
No, the government has the power to determine that and should...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#135
We who are pro-RKBA control most of the government.	GreenStormCloud	Dec 2011	#136
NO, sorry, but once again you're wrong	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#191
Only if we let them.	PavePusher	Dec 2011	#255
Apparently not the victims of gun violence...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#256
I will not allow myself to be restricted when I have not commited a crime or harmed anyone.	PavePusher	Dec 2011	#260
No, it isnt...but it IS equal.	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#303
"the victim has no right to direct his frustration and anger"	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#322
If you need to see it that way	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#327
So, some thug	one-eyed fat man	Dec 2011	#310
No compex proxies or numbers juggling	pipoman	Dec 2011	#137
That's just sociological categorization.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#143
"More guns also means more irresponsible owners."	PavePusher	Dec 2011	#262
I'll try specifics for $500, Alex....	PavePusher	Dec 2011	#82
Of all the bad definitions you could have picked,	ManiacJoe	Dec 2011	#264
To clarify, you should define an "assault weapon'...	SteveW	Dec 2011	#152
Jeeez...really?	pipoman	Dec 2011	#70
Gun control...	discntnt_irny_srcsm	Dec 2011	#96
Gun control in the US is weaker than...	DanTex	Dec 2011	#98
First off...	discntnt_irny_srcsm	Dec 2011	#105
What is descriptive and enlightening is the fact that the US has by far the highest gun homicide...	DanTex	Dec 2011	#110
I entirely forgot...	discntnt_irny_srcsm	Dec 2011	#112
because there is no demand	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#139
"All economies are demand driven"	DanTex	Dec 2011	#142
I don't disagree for the most part.	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#163
I'm tempted to challenge this...	Marengo	Dec 2011	#377
I was there 1986-89	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#378
Mainland Japan...	Marengo	Dec 2011	#379
Hilarious URL!	DissedByBush	Dec 2011	#128
The Brady campaign is GOP-founded, GOP-led...	SteveW	Dec 2011	#153
Simplistic ad hominem.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#155
Just pointing out your strident, proven hypocrisy...	SteveW	Dec 2011	#160
Nonsense	pipoman	Dec 2011	#69
One can believe man things and still be horribly wrong.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#144
So why are the lives of policemen more important than crime victims?	Remmah2	Dec 2011	#305
Many statists...	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#311
You take a poor approach to the "problem"...	SteveW	Dec 2011	#145
This very may well have been reported to the ATF.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#148
I doubt they were. Bloomberg's "stings" rarely, if ever, result in prosecutable cases.	friendly_iconoclast	Dec 2011	#154
But you don't know, do you?	SteveW	Dec 2011	#161
Ha...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#4
not a rush to judgement	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#5
That's not the way I see it...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#7
like	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#9
The ATF clearly is failing...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#11
mass shootings like that are rare	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#14
Tell that to the victims and their families, that "rare" is acceptable...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#15
Lovejoying the thread, are we? "If it saves only one life..."	friendly_iconoclast	Dec 2011	#21
I wish you would...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#33
umm	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#36
Which just goes to show current laws aren't effective at stopping many people...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#39
and you think	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#44
Communist revolution is Amy Goodman? 1917? Bolsheviks? Ring a bell?	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#47
That's as much as admitting that gun laws don't drive the crime rate.	friendly_iconoclast	Dec 2011	#50
You keep changing the subject.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#53
Like recent spree killings in Italy, Belgium and Norway?	friendly_iconoclast	Dec 2011	#57
And Norway is horrified...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#59
Now you claim that availability of grenades (illegal) equals availability of guns (legal).	PavePusher	Dec 2011	#85
I claimed no such thing...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#133
I don't know personally any victims of gun violence	DissedByBush	Dec 2011	#130
By man with a mentally unstable man with a criminal record...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#132
Trying to shift the blame to someone who had no legal or moral responsibility.	PavePusher	Dec 2011	#140
Nice, personal attack.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#180
Personal attack? I've simply identified your tactic.	PavePusher	Dec 2011	#192
Ha...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#203
Well then tell us what, to you, is "common sense gun control"	oneshooter	Dec 2011	#210
Sure.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#213
Those are more than a little vague- care to elaborate about "regular inspection", for instance?	friendly_iconoclast	Dec 2011	#217
Not really...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#219
Really?	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#224
Do you drive?	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#279
Yep sure do.	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#304
It's not up to you to decide whether a post is germane to a subject.	friendly_iconoclast	Dec 2011	#277
Ok.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#278
That is a non answer, typical of those who know not of what they speak of.	oneshooter	Dec 2011	#239
The details can be worked out...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#241
And here we are back at the beginning	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#243
First we pass it, then we "work out the details".	PavePusher	Dec 2011	#268
You just did the full verbal pretzel.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#269
So you want changes, but you have no idea WHAT changes you want.	oneshooter	Dec 2011	#300
"No matter what the cost."	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#317
What cost?	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#328
What if you were compensated?	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#329
For starters...	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#330
Frankly...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#331
It would be...	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#332
You don't really seem to understand...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#333
Never said I didnt have them.	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#334
Most hospitals comply...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#335
Most PEOPLE comply	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#336
They'll just notify law enforcement and have the hospital security hold you until then.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#337
Go ask a nurse?	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#363
How do you feel about killing her parents?	DissedByBush	Dec 2011	#176
Or she could have been shot...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#179
It was a split second decision	DissedByBush	Dec 2011	#282
Oh please...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#290
But he did do it	DissedByBush	Dec 2011	#313
Who knows?	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#209
"End discussion?" Check-mated again. nt	SteveW	Dec 2011	#162
you are changing the subject	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#56
You have misconstrued the purpose of laws.	PavePusher	Dec 2011	#84
Shall I list the then-current gun laws violated in Columbine? n/t	DissedByBush	Dec 2011	#129
Which just demonstrates how the system failed...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#134
Yes, enforcement of current laws failed	DissedByBush	Dec 2011	#175
Better laws.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#182
That doesn't answer the question. How would you ensure your "better" laws get enforced?	friendly_iconoclast	Dec 2011	#222
Better laws?	DissedByBush	Dec 2011	#281
apples and oranges	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#28
large part	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#38
You're cynical...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#40
Ah, your "intellectual" side is showing now	DonP	Dec 2011	#61
Since when did Democrats think "intellectual" was bad?	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#62
That was sarcasm, for the irony impaired	DonP	Dec 2011	#64
It wasn't her commentary - it is the sheer arrogance of those caught on tape.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#65
Access to defensive tools is both an individual Right and a human Right.	PavePusher	Dec 2011	#86
I wonder how that quote would have sounded otherwise	DissedByBush	Dec 2011	#177
You couldn't be wrong...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#178
There is a reason businesses don't want their people resisting	DissedByBush	Dec 2011	#283
I have not seen those movies	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#285
Correct.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#288
you did not read closely	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#294
You're right. I'm not rereading this thread closely.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#295
But the "failed system" has once again had a reduction in violent crime.	friendly_iconoclast	Dec 2011	#296
...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#297
"Gun control and and better policing" The first of which you claimed was a "failed system"?	friendly_iconoclast	Dec 2011	#298
Yes, it's still failing.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#299
Indeed, it has failed to prevent more people from buying more guns.	friendly_iconoclast	Dec 2011	#339
Don't put words in my mouth. n/t	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#340
You're talking about what you see as "civic responsibility".	friendly_iconoclast	Dec 2011	#341
I think we'll start seeing a flat line and it certainly won't approach European levels.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#342
Is there some Department of Scientific Disarmament Instruction where we might find these?	friendly_iconoclast	Dec 2011	#347
Volokh, a couple rogue sociologists, and the NRA isn't propaganda?	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#356
rogue sociologists?	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#358
...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#359
I've yet to quote the NRA or Eugene Volokh in my responses to you...	friendly_iconoclast	Dec 2011	#361
could be a lot of things	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#349
Yes.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#351
I have,	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#353
What do you tell the victims of drunk drivers? Obviously our alcohol licensing laws are inadequate	hack89	Dec 2011	#91
I support strong enforcement of our current laws.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#116
But you would not restrict access to alcohol	hack89	Dec 2011	#127
...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#200
Would you consider Prohibition to reduce alcohol related deaths?	hack89	Dec 2011	#227
I'd consider sensible legislation - I'm not a Prohibitionist.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#228
Interesting....	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#230
They just enable it to be more destructive...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#232
You're wrong on both.	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#234
I think the present gun laws are adequate	hack89	Dec 2011	#246
Both and.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#249
So what specific laws do you want? nt	hack89	Dec 2011	#258
Ok.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#259
I see lots of restrictions on law abiding citizens	hack89	Dec 2011	#263
How does a legal gun become an illegal gun?	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#267
You are approaching this from the wrong direction.	PavePusher	Dec 2011	#270
That's straight denialism.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#271
No, it's word salad from you.	PavePusher	Dec 2011	#273
We stop it by focusing on criminals.	hack89	Dec 2011	#272
The problem with your mindset vis-a-vis gun is that	MicaelS	Dec 2011	#195
Are you ready to ban gasoline and matches?	GreenStormCloud	Dec 2011	#115
That is one desperate argument...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#183
Actually only 51. And that is less than one in a million. That's rare.	GreenStormCloud	Dec 2011	#189
Really?	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#205
My guns aren't illegal and are not a problem.	GreenStormCloud	Dec 2011	#214
There are many people who don't.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#215
The two are not the same thing	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#220
Prevention.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#221
How does...	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#226
Oh my...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#229
From where...	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#231
Do you send your child to school?	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#233
Yes i do	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#235
The school of life.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#236
Wrong again.	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#237
...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#238
Sigh....	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#240
It would be my guess that you would not approve of my 13yr olds	oneshooter	Dec 2011	#244
No.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#245
depends on the hunting regulation	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#253
Can you not read, or perhaps fail to understand what you read.	oneshooter	Dec 2011	#275
In Hawaii they tend to use bows and a knife...	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#276
so does Ted Nugent	gejohnston	Dec 2011	#286
Good.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#287
I repeat, I do not watch viet era movies. I was there.	oneshooter	Dec 2011	#301
Good.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#318
Who said it had anything to do with hunting?	We_Have_A_Problem	Dec 2011	#306
The ATF clearly is failing	DissedByBush	Dec 2011	#315
"If they're willing to sell to someone like that they're willing to make an illegal deal."	PavePusher	Dec 2011	#83
Jurisdictional issues.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#117
They couldn't have been.	PavePusher	Dec 2011	#120
Background check?	Remmah2	Dec 2011	#193
They are claiming a "fail" rate of 62%...	Straw Man	Dec 2011	#3
I think the answer to your specific questions is "so what?"	Euromutt	Dec 2011	#67
Ok, I'll jump in and respond...	aikoaiko	Dec 2011	#74
See this is a real response....	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#104
I get your point.	aikoaiko	Dec 2011	#106
Thank you.	ellisonz	Dec 2011	#109
Just read a similar example of faith-promoting rumor in GD:	friendly_iconoclast	Dec 2011	#97
I wonder if Bloomberg's tactics could be considered stalking? nt	Remmah2	Dec 2011	#194
It's simple: Private gun sales are essentially unregulated.	Atypical Liberal	Dec 2011	#338

Response to ellisonz (Original post)

Sat Dec 17, 2011, 12:17 AM

gejohnston (17,502 posts)

1. did they report these to the ATF

NYC had no business nor jurisdiction to do this. They were calling private sellers, not FFLs. Anyone can joke about "maybe not being able to pass" none of them said they could not. Private sellers are barred from doing background checks even if they wanted to. There is no crime. Also, all of these are out of state sellers. Under current federal law (Gun Control Act of 1968 to be exact) all interstate sales must go through a licensed dealer. Had the NYC buyer been real, the seller would send the gun to a FFL holder in NY. That dealer would do the NICS background check and what ever is required by NY law. If the seller did not send it to a dealer (which would be unlikely and really stupid, since the ATF could be doing similar projects.) it would not by NYC's jurisdiction to do anything about it. NYC would have to report it to the ATF, which might also put their investigator at risk for prosecution. It is also a federal crime to sell to someone who is not a resident of the same state. In other words, it is a federal crime for me to buy a gun in Arizona. It is a federal crime for me to sell one to a snowbird.
To answer your questions:
I think NYC's finding are bullshit and Bloomburg's minions probably went to the James O'Keefe school of video editing. He might get another cease and desist order from the ATF for sticking his nose in their business. If I were a resident of NYC, I would be pissed that NYPD wasting time making political points instead of enforcing New York law.
It has nothing to do with the industry, it was private sellers. I want to see unedited video. I also want evidence that these were real sellers and not just created by MAIG.
The most important change I want to see is gun control advocates learn current firearms laws, and be honest about them in their propaganda.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172772

Point Click, Fire: An Undercover Investigation of Illegal Online Gun Sales

1. did they report these to the ATF

2. Gun control advocates honest? Like the "assault rifle" that wasn't an assault rifle?

6. Who says I'm a Bloomberg fan...

8. define best

10. Yes.

12. Um...

16. If you'd like to believe I have a sketchy grasp...

20. no one is saying that

75. Just an old piece of paper on which our government is founded.

94. "Why should firearms be oh so special?" - Uhm, becuase they are SPECIFICALLY mentioned as a Right

146. Within the context of "a well regulated Militia"

156. No, the operative clause in the Second is...

157. Volokh is a svengali.

164. How old are you?

167. How old are you?

169. How old are you?

171. what slander?

172. Dude, one day you'll see the light.

173. but first

174. Yeah it is that time of the year...

321. No, just one of many, indeed most, scholars who hold an individual right...

326. I'm sorry.

364. "15%" Creating numbers, now? nt

369. No more than the claim...

373. I wish you had access to the ability to comprehend

380. So where did you get that "15%" from? You can find sources...

165. You can try to argue that nonsense if you want, but you asked a question, and now you know WHY...

166. A "well regulated" right.

168. regulated in 18th Century meant equipped so

170. I think that could be taken to mean a couple clear things...

181. OMG! You are actually quoting a 1999 article that uses Michael Bellisles as the "expert"!

184. At least I'm not cuddling with Charlton Heston...

185. Normally ignorance is a curable condition, but in your case it appears to be hopeless

186. Ahh the arrogance, anger, and vitriol of denialists...

187. a lot of flaws in the study

188. From your own link:

198. narrow minded?

199. Nobody reasonably expects a criminologist to be an expert on emergency medicine.

147. When establishing "restrictions," be aware of the Second Amendment.

149. "a well regulated Militia"

158. I have read many sources, current and historical. You are wrong.

320. Your position is ahistorical.

323. If you want to go by that...

325. The right thing is having half a dozen handguns?

366. I'll own as many as I wish

367. I can make a mockery of anyone who argues such silliness.

371. Go for it.

372. Your points are simplistic, circular, and ahistorical...

374. I wonder if you even know what that sentence means....

365. Interesting, can't say I disagree with the content. Your point? nt

368. Regulation of the Militia...

370. Once again....

375. Now you're disagreeing with our ownself within you're own argument.

381. You need to check up on what "well-regulated" meant...

382. Oh I've checked...

383. Like in Kelo v. New London, where property was taken for corporate enrichment? It feels good.

386. Yes. I agree with that decision.

384. Didn't you just quote Heller in another thread? Reallly, pal....

385. Oh my...

387. So, do you wish to do away with the militia and the laws governing them?

388. I wish to view the right to bear arms as connected with *official* militia service.

389. I'm sure you do, but you would still be wrong...

391. Why, yes he did- approvingly.

307. "Well regulated" means well equipped and trained

212. "...but that's not seen as harassment of law-abiding citizens..."

13. Really? What other products require and an FBI background check before sale?

17. FDA, USDA, OHSA, IRS etc...

24. So, you bought a gun with no backgorund check then, interesting for a control supporter

27. Have you ever killed a man in combat?

32. Door gunner in the 1st Cav, 17 th Airmobile out of Phu Loi

42. So did no one else back home have any basis for thinking the war was wrong?

58. You do know that violence in the US is at a 35 year low, right? Your friend nonwithstanding.

60. Yes I do.

63. So, based on your approach, as a man I should be able to dictate abortion law, right?

73. I don't see the point of the AWB

88. And of course we can trust the police implicitly with our civil rights

77. "mass weapons distrobution"

114. So you would be happier is she had been robbed at knife point?

118. Yes.

388. I wish to view the right to bear arms as connected with official militia service.

46. Tsk, tsk. The search function is not your friend on this one: