Just got canned in the gun-ban group for a point of info...

[Eleanors38]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by krispos42 (a host of the Gun Control & RKBA group).

You may not find it their since the post was censored as well. What I asked was serious for discussion on any subject. The SOP for the banners listed "progressive gun control" groups the "activists" wanted to work with. I politely asked if these groups were progressive because of their general stances on issues, or because they were merely for gun control; specifying the Brady organization as an example. Presumably this was sufficient to ban and censor.

This raises a larger question for progressives: what constitutes progressive politics, one-issue stances, or a number of issues with generally-recognized progressive positions? Would the "activists" work with Chas. Krauthammer & Wm. Bennett? Or Nixon & Reagan were they alive?

Hopefully, the lights are not going out all over DU with regard the Second Amendment. I post here because I have the freedom to, and because META, for some peculiar reason, is no more.

[xchrom]

1. ...

[NaturalHigh]

2. I don't have an answer for any of your questions, Eleanor.

I'm a pro-2nd amendment guy. A lot of people on DU are not. Their side seems pretty fanatical (total ban for the most part) to me. There is also a pretty strong RKBA contingent.

Where DU will end up on the issue, I don't know. I do know, however, that an 1994-type bill is not going to pass Congress any time soon. That's good news.

[raidert05]

3. I hope this can bring you a smile...

?w=392

[Eleanors38]

7. Both the activist's inquisitor du jour & the cartoon gave me smiles!

[rdharma]

9. Cartoon from a rightie nut job site........

How surprising!

[raidert05]

10. Google...

Has lots of amazing meme images when you type in gun nuts and gun control..

[Lurks Often]

16. Not at all surprising

you're unable to discuss facts and resort to snide remarks and insinuation.

[rdharma]

18. No insinuation!

Click on the "properties" of that photo and you'll see where it came from originally.

[Lurks Often]

22. You attack the source because you can't discuss the topic n/t

[rdharma]

24. Discuss the topic?

You mean a thread whining about having a thread zapped?

[raidert05]

28. Really guys....

Its a picture with words I find them online and make them online to help lighten the mood in two emotional charge areas of the forums, I had no idea whether the source is some right wing nut job site or not..regardless of the source there is no reason to start thumping chests and grunting..

[rdharma]

34. regardless of the source

It's insightful seeing what you think is "funny".

[jmg257]

36. Cool story, Bro. A cartoon from a RW source trashing liberals...

You do realize this is DU and not FR, right?

[apocalypsehow]

38. That's a distinction many of our "pro gun progressives"* seem to have had difficulty sorting out..

...over the years.




*( )

[jmg257]

40. They do tend to have that in common...especially new trolls too stupid

To even try to hide their BS.



Ah well...what would the gungeon do without them?

[raidert05]

39. ?

What exactly is FR?

[jmg257]

41. Its where many "pro-gun progressives" go to die...to be among friends*.

*Kind of like heaven for nut jobs and selfish pricks.

[raidert05]

43. You mean like this..

[Bjorn Against]

25. Did you seriously just refer to a right-wing comic as "facts"?

Please tell me what part of that comic was factual.

[Lurks Often]

27. I see that reading comprehension isn't one of your strengths

, understandable since you are another one is rarely able to discuss any subject without resorting to personal attacks. I was referring to the person's inability to ever discuss a topic.

[Bjorn Against]

37. I did read your post, it did not say what you are now claiming it does.

Here is the post I responded to...

"Not at all surprising

you're unable to discuss facts and resort to snide remarks and insinuation."

Notice that you never said anything about the inability to discuss a topic, you wrote about the inability to discuss facts. This was in response to a post about a completely fact free right-wing comic.

[gejohnston]

4. Like Bloomberg's

doesn't do anything to end stop and frisk
pushing school privatization in NYC, and using his billions to lobby for them in CA
wants to sell NYC's older public libraries (cool art deco buildings) to private developers
busts unions
supported Scott Brown
Oh yeah, he loves that Citizens United now
As far as I am concerned, my disagreement with his opinion of guns pales in comparison to my disagreement with him on those issues.
All of these groups embrace the Cheney/Bush secret list.

My question is, are any of them progressive or liberal?

[shadowrider]

5. Amazing how "liberal" they are with the ban button when they pitched a fit

and peed themselves over hoyt and bongbong getting blocked here.

Shows you how authoritarian they are and how they'd actually treat their version of "gun control".

"Nobody wants to take your guns, until we do".

That is all.

[slackmaster]

6. It's a "safe haven" where inconvenient facts and dissenting opinions cannot be tolerated

[Tuesday Afternoon]

8. personally, I think that for ever one they ban we get to choose one to ban over here.

tit. tat. and all that shat.

[apocalypsehow]

11. First, where's the link for context? Second, you are well aware of the SOP, but neither you nor

the vast majority of your pals among the "pro gun progressives"* here are interested in complying with that SOP in good faith, and you well know it.

This raises no "larger" questions at all: the new gun control activism group is a place where those of us who believe in comprehensive gun legislation to regulate firearms and firearms-related paraphernalia to a greater extent have had established a place where we can discuss these issues free of the "pro-RKBA" side of the matter.

It is that simple. Now, you can whine about "censorship" and call names and carry on about an "echo chamber" all you wish: the bottom line is the "RKBA" point of view is not wanted in the new group. You have the rest of DU and your very own NRA playpen right here in which to post that crap.

What is it that is so hard to understand about that concept?


*( )

[Clames]

12. Could only imagine the poutrage you'd go into...

...if you were banned from this group for the vindictive garbage you post here. Good thing you'll have you own VPC/MAIG/Brady Campaign pen to whine in since Meta is gone...

[apocalypsehow]

13. You'd imagine wrong: if I routinely violated this group's SOP, I'd not complain in the slightest.

Here's this groups SOP, BTW. I suggest you study it closely and then get back with me when you find where I've violated it somewhere:

"Discuss gun politics, gun control laws, the Second Amendment, the use of firearms for self-defense, and the use of firearms to commit crime and violence."

Do you need a link?

[Clames]

17. Did I say you violated the SOP?

Nope, seems like your imagination is running away with you again... But you tapdance along the border and eventually it catches up. Hoyt can use a few buddies in my estimation. He'll have them sooner or later...

[apocalypsehow]

33. You said: "Could only imagine the poutrage you'd go into...if you were banned from

this group for the vindictive garbage you post here."

As the only way I could be banned from this group - short of just being PPR'd from the whole site - is if I violated the SOP of the group on a routine/regular basis. The Gungeon Host himself has made this perfectly clear when commenting on the matter over time in this forum. Thus my reply:

"You'd imagine wrong: if I routinely violated this group's SOP, I'd not complain in the slightest"

I then referred you the Gun Control & RKBA's group's SOP, as you seemed to have trouble recalling it's content. Public service, all of that. So, you parse it however you wish. Do you still need that link to this group's SOP? I will be delighted to post link if you're still having trouble finding your way to it.

[Clames]

48. You have trouble with simple words used in non-complex sentences it seems..

Words like "if" appear to give you contextual problems. I'll keep that it mind going forward...

[Eleanors38]

15. Ask your host since I can't find it in your group. Simple. nt

[apocalypsehow]

31. You said in your OP upthread that the post was "censored," and now you state "I can't find it"

over in the group.

Which is it?

[Eleanors38]

42. I posted it in the ban group. It is no longer there.

[apocalypsehow]

45. Oh yes it is:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1262&pid=565

[SayWut]

14. Give it time.

Probably wont take very long until the blacklist has more names than those actually
participating in any agenda being discussed there.

From what I've read there so far, it's a pretty benign, harmless clique anyways.

[ileus]

19. Control is never progressive.

There's only one progressive stance on our rights....We've already gave until it hurts trying to appease the controllers.

[slackmaster]

21. I feel the same way. The reason I am pro-RKBA is the same reason I am OK with drug legalization,

...and safe and legal abortion. Regulate as needed, but don't make any kind of firearm impossible to acquire legally if you aren't a convicted felon, etc.

[Warren Stupidity]

32. "don't make any kind of firearm impossible to acquire legally"

no qualification at all on 'any kind of firearm'?

[badtoworse]

35. I'm sure Slackmaster will weigh in, but I believe he has posted that the NFA of 1934 got it right

[coldmountain]

20. I think us gun controllers should model the anti-abortion crowd

I think us gun controllers should model the anti-abortion crowd, it's easily the most successful political model out there, the NRA sure has copied them.

The nanny state has done wonders in making cars safer to the point they kill less people than guns in some states and the trend is that cars will kill less than guns nationwide in a few years.

[gejohnston]

23. not the same thing

most of the car deaths are killing others on accident, most of the gun deaths are people intentionally killing themselves.

I think us gun controllers should model the anti-abortion crowd

you actually do. Both use many of the same propaganda techniques.
Being for gun control, or prohibition, as a liberal stance is really an accident of history since the late 1960s. Prior to that it was a mixed bag, but mostly right leaning.

[coldmountain]

29. All these children are killing themselves?

" In this report, a special focus was directed to the cause of death among children 13 to 17 years old. Gun violence persists as a leading cause of death in this age group.

In NYC and nationally, firearms are the most common mechanism of youth homicide, accounting for 68 percent of youth homicides in NYC and 82 percent in the United States. Prevention efforts are critical to lower these grim statistics. Action must be taken now. The CFRAT recommends that policy makers support efforts to reduce access to illegal guns, such as improving background checks and closing purchasing loopholes to better prevent crime and violence caused by illegal guns."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mary-l-pulido-phd/nyc-child-fatality-report_b_2514929.html

[gejohnston]

49. kind of a red herring since I was speaking of all gun deaths combined.

I avoid using op eds on Huff Po written advocates and partisans even ones I like. I went to public school in a time when they taught quint concepts like "question all sources, even if you agree with ideology."

One question,

The CFRAT recommends that policy makers support efforts to reduce access to illegal guns, such as improving background checks and closing purchasing loopholes to better prevent crime and violence caused by illegal guns."

While I agree with improving background checks etc. in principle, I don't think it would do little or nothing to solve the problem. It is like putting a band aid on a broken arm.
These youth can't legally buy a gun anywhere in the US. It also doesn't address how legal guns go to the black market. Every interview I have seen of "how I got the illegal gun" the answer is something like 100 bucks off the street be it NYC or Toronto. That implies theft (or in the case of NYC, cops selling NYPD selling guns for drugs) or bought from those who do because I don't picture a straw purchaser risking federal prison for a financial loss.

http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/10LCID_All_Deaths_By_Age_Group_2010-a.pdf
http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/10LCID_Unintentional_Deaths_2010-a.pdf

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704904604576333443343499926.html
http://www.criminology.fsu.edu/p/faculty-gary-kleck.php

What I would like to see, would be a "secure it" campaign. The NSSF, the manufactures lobby, and the ATF have a joint effort in straw purchasing prevention. Perhaps the NSSF, ATF, and one of the more moderate/liberal gun rights groups like the IFOA could lead it.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703959104576081910062180664.html
http://www.dontlie.org/
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/programs/dont-lie/

[CreekDog]

26. you're seriously asking *this* group what a progressive at DU is?

this is the group you look at to find out what a progressive at DU is NOT.

[Warren Stupidity]

30. It is a safe haven group. You got banned for violating the rules.

And you ran back here to proudly proclaim and score your creds. But where are you scoring them?

[BainsBane]

44. META with guns

[apocalypsehow]

46. Hahaaaahaaaaaa! Yep, perfect. That's what the Gungeon seems to be devolving too.

[BainsBane]

47. Because Meta I wasn't bloody enough

Add some AR-15s and let 'em rip.

[krispos42]

50. Locking

This is not the Forum to discuss other Forums or Groups.

With Meta gone, your only recourse that I am aware of is to appeal to the Host that banned you from the Group.

Regards,
Krispos42, Group Host