Concealed-Carry Permit - Why "shall issue" and state reciprocity are bad ideas.......

[rdharma]

Pa. lawmaker proposes bill to skirt Phila. gun-permit process

A STATE SENATOR whose district is more than 150 miles away from Philadelphia has proposed gun legislation that's targeted at loosening the city's process for issuing concealed-handgun permits.

Sen. Richard Alloway II, R-Chambersburg, circulated a memo to search for cosponsors this week for a bill that would allow state residents to get their permit to carry a concealed weapon from a county adjacent to their home county.

If the fledgling bill were to pass, Philadelphia residents would be able to go to a suburban county to get their permits instead of in Philadelphia, as they are currently required to do.

~snip~

For years, gun-rights advocates have claimed that the Philadelphia Police Department's Gun Permit Unit has far more rigorous requirements for obtaining a concealed-carry permit than other counties, which issue permits through their sheriff's offices.

Philadelphia relies heavily on a clause in current law that allows officials to deny a concealed-carry permit based on character and reputation alone. For instance, if someone has a dozen arrests but no convictions, the Gun Permit Unit can use the character clause to deny that person a license.

Previously, residents who were denied permits in Pennsylvania could get theirs through the mail from Florida, which became known as the "Florida loophole."

Those Florida permits had to be honored here because of a reciprocity agreement, but in February State Attorney General Kathleen Kane closed the loophole.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20130621_Pa__lawmaker_proposes_bill_to_skirt_Phila__gun-permit_process.html

[gejohnston]

1. None of that has nothing to do with shall issue.

Philadelphia relies heavily on a clause in current law that allows officials to deny a concealed-carry permit based on character and reputation alone. For instance, if someone has a dozen arrests but no convictions, the Gun Permit Unit can use the character clause to deny that person a license.

Colorado wrote a "naked man rule" in their shall issue licensing law. In the naked man standard gives sheriffs the deny a permit for cases like that. The applicant can appeal, and LE has the burden of proof to show the judge the permit should be denied. From what I understand, it works well.

Dozens of arrests, but no convictions........Is that the character flaw of the individual or the cops? When you are talking about PDs like Philadelphia that is a question that has to be asked.

Previously, residents who were denied permits in Pennsylvania could get theirs through the mail from Florida, which became known as the "Florida loophole."

How so? Both involve background checks. All PA has to do is not recognized non resident permits from anyone. Meaning, those states would accept a Florida resident permit from a Floridian, but not a Florida non resident permit from a New Yorker. Some shall issue states do this.

[rdharma]

3. Yes, it does!

Since in Philadelphia there is evidently no "shall issue" as in the rest of the state.

Yes. They should not accept out of state CCWs. But they State AG doesn't have the power to make that happen (it would have to be done by the state legislature)....... that's not going to happen in PA.

To quote James Carville: "Pennsylvania is Philadelphia and Pittsburgh with Alabama in between."

[gejohnston]

4. no you don't understand how the non resident works

resident permits are different than non resident permits. If they refuse non resident permits, it does not mean they do not allow resident permits from those states. Florida, ironically, is one of the states that do not allow non resident permits.
Although they have Wyoming's age requirement wrong, this says PA did just that. Wyoming CC age is 21 with or without permit.
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/news/concealed_carry.html

Which means, Spin's Florida permit is still accepted, just not PA resident that happens to have a non resident permit.

According to US carry, these states do not accept non resident permits.
Colorado, Florida, Maine, Michigan, New Hampshire, South Carolina

In Wyoming, the leg. does not allow reciprocity with states where the permit is issued by the county instead of the state, which are the main reasons California and New York permits are not accepted. Other than that, it is up to the state AG.

[rdharma]

8. I'm well aware of the repricosity laws concerning concealed weapons.

But I've got a question for you......

Would Wyoming accept a CCW permit from a resident of Philadelphia? After all, they recognize PA permit holders, right?

[gejohnston]

11. is Philadelphia following the law?

I'm betting not. Unless there is a carve out, it is still issued by the state. I'm guessing those in Philly doesn't like are not being forwarded to the state agency.

Oh wait, it seems PPD has a hard time knowing the laws they are supposed to enforce:
http://www.aclupa.org/pressroom/gunrightsadvocatesuescityo.htm
http://www.philadelphiaweekly.com/news-and-opinion/Open-Carry-Experiment-Shows-Cops-Dont-Know-Their-Own-Gun-Laws-121989564.html
http://jonathanturley.org/2011/05/17/philadelphia-police-wrongly-accuse-man-of-gun-violation-in-abuse-confrontation-and-then-charge-him-instead-with-disorderly-conduct/

I guess that answers that question

Dozens of arrests, but no convictions........Is that the character flaw of the individual or the cops? When you are talking about PDs like Philadelphia that is a question that has to be asked.

[ceonupe]

22. Answer

What he is saying some states grant people non resident permits. These states often are big tourism states like FL.

Funny thing is FL does not accept other states nonresident permits if you are a fl resident. So that forces you if you are a FL resident to get a FL ccw once u become a resident. But FL does offer a non resident permit itself.

However with more states signing reciprocity agreements the non resident permit may no longer be needed except for people from may issue states who just can't get a permit. (Example a NYC resident that spends the winter in FL, in NYC he's prob not going to be granted a permit but in FL a shall issue state he would be)

[rdharma]

23. I know that....... nt

Isn't it wonderful that people from out of state can get Florida CCWs (or whatever they call them) and you don't even have to be a resident (like George Zimmerman)?

[ceonupe]

25. They want the tourist

Many in FL are winter birds. They may not have residence in FL but yeah FL offers them a way to get a ccw as a non resident. The requirements are pretty much the same as residents. I say its safer than just exempting out of state residents from ccw lic requirements and letting them do it no permit needed.

FL has tons of laws specificly because of the fact they have so many full and part time transplants

The have also an aggressive focus on older transplants and retirement/estate planning. Special laws to encourage growth in the pan handle and retirement areas. And special tax zones and kickbacks for the interests of Disney and other tourist attractions.

FL had no open carry for a while and the most part still does if you don't have either a ccw or a fishing poll / game tag on you.

[gejohnston]

26. Zimmerman is a resident

opening arguments start Monday.

[appal_jack]

2. What other arbitrary denials of rights do you support?

What other arbitrary denials of rights do you support?

To me, this article reads like a powerful argument in favor of state-wide shall-issue with national reciprocity. Constitutional rights should not wax and wane based upon citizens crossing state and municipal boundaries.

-app

[rdharma]

5. I'll bet you are in favor of those "mail order" CCWs from Florida too, eh?

Constitutional "rights" are not "unlimited". Do you think you have the right under the 2nd Amendment to own a nuke?

Do you think you have the "right" under the 1st Amendment to distribute child pornography or yell "fire" in a crowded theater? Are those examples a violation of your "freedom of speech"?

I believe you are right about the problems caused by the hodge podge of gun laws we have in this country. It would be better to have a federal system of gun laws for the entire country. Like Switzerland.

Switzerland also has gun registration and licensing requirements.

[gejohnston]

6. only under signing a treaty with the EU.

Before then, it was a purchase permit like Michigan from a store. Private sales, not so much. Canada and New Zealand dumped their long gun registry. Canada did it twice.

[rdharma]

9. Fact is, they have it! It's the LAW and it works! nt

What are you trying to prove with that "only under signing a treaty with the EU" comment?.

[gejohnston]

10. registration for privately owned guns

didn't start until signing the treaty 2007. The treaty was the reason why. It is also why Finland raised their purchase age from 15 to 18.
Does it work? If they decided to adopt gun laws like Vermont, would their crime go up? Doubt it. I don't know how you define "works" but I doubt it actually matters as far as their murder rates.
Since UK's murder rate didn't drop after their handgun ban, can we say it doesn't work?

[rdharma]

12. "UK's murder rate didn't drop after their handgun ban, can we say it doesn't work?"

NO! Because it has. Though I know that's a favorite NRA talking point, but it's a poor example if you check it out.

The United Kingdom has one of the lowest rates of gun homicides in the world. There were 0.04 recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants in 2010. Gun homicides accounted for 2.4% of all homicides in the year 2009.

Switzerland's registration of guns just makes good sense all the way around. Their firearms freedoms are still quite intact....thank-you very much for asking.

[gejohnston]

13. can you provide evidence?

The United Kingdom has one of the lowest rates of gun homicides in the world. There were 0.04 recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants in 2010. Gun homicides accounted for 2.4% of all homicides in the year 2009.

As was the case before any gun laws were passed. You have not proven your case with any evidence although it is a favorite Brady talking point.

Registration is theater. Granted it will provide a few, hopefully public sector jobs, but not much else. That is one of the problems with Canada's cost over runs on their registry. Instead of RCMP civil servants doing the IT, they outsourced it to companies like Telecon Consulting, owned by Coalition for Gun Control activist Wendy Cukier and Honeywell.

In Australia:
http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/legal-gun-owners-targeted-by-crime-police-20130523-2k2zi.html
So, this begs the question. Other than farms, how would thieves know who has the guns?

Sorry, you haven't convinced me that registration makes any logical sense at all.

[rdharma]

14. Stats...... UK

1995 - 663
1996 - 584
1997 - 650
1998 - 629
1999 - 760
2000 - 891 2000 includes 58 Chinese nationals who suffocated in a lorry en route into the UK
2001 - 1048
2002 - 853 2002/03 includes 172 victims of Dr Harold Shipman.
2003 - 868 2003/04 includes 20 cockle pickers who drowned in Morecambe Bay
2004 - 765
2005 - 759 2005/06 includes 52 victims of the 7 July London bombings.
2006 - 753
2007 - 651
2008 - 640
2010 - 636 2010 includes 12 victims of Derrick Bird

2010 Percentage of murders committed with firearms
England/Wales - 6%
United States - 60%

[gejohnston]

16. Like I said,

is it the result of the law? You didn't answer that. In case you missed the question, let me clarify. Did the rate drop after the handgun ban? If so, can it be traced to the passages of that law? Meaning, were gangs using licensed and registered handguns to kill each other with? More "crimes of passion" with guns in Hull?

Your chart failed to show that. UK had zero gun control prior to 1920. That was true to varying degrees in much of Europe. They were passed, like most of Europe's, during the Red Scare and Bolshevik Revolution. Germany didn't pass their registration laws because their streets were unsafe from street thugs, they feared the Red Brigade.

The streets of London were quite safe unless you happened to be a hooker in the 1880s. Why didn't Jack use a gun?

[rdharma]

15. Australia - Murder rate fell after ban.

How do thieves know who has the guns? Word of mouth probably. You know how gun huggers like to brag about "their babies".

[gejohnston]

17. it started falling before the ban

and continued to fall at the same rate. Since registered and licensed guns were not used in most crimes, Port Author being an exception, can't show that the law did. To recap:
Each Australian state had its own gun laws, still do. They vary just like ours. NSW being the strictest and Tasmania being the most liberal. What NFA did
ban semi automatic and pump action long guns nation wide. Tasmania banned machine guns in 1994.
So, unless all of those crimes were committed with registered pump and semi auto long guns, your point isn't well taken.

How do the thieves know? Like Canada, Australia has a private contractor running their system. That said, that doesn't seem to account for most Australian crime guns since, according to Australian Institute of Criminology, 93 percent have never been legally registered to anyone. Since most if not all states had some kind of registration scheme before NFA, it begs the the obvious question.

[rdharma]

18. So..... what's the "obvious" question? nt

[gejohnston]

20. If they were never legally registered to anyone in Australia

I'm guessing including importers and gun stores, where did they come from?

[gejohnston]

7. or Connetticut's?

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/NonResidentPermits.pdf

According to this, PA did mail order until two years ago.

[rdharma]

19. So? ....... What's your point?

[gejohnston]

21. Just because Florida gets the press

doesn't mean they are the only ones.

[rdharma]

24. Why does FL get the press?

Because of that George Zimmerman thing?

[gejohnston]

27. Perhaps before then.

Opening arguments start Monday. All of the jurors are women, including the alternates.
Here is the live blog.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/10/george-zimmerman-trial-jury-selection_n_3414435.html#blog

[CokeMachine]

28. You are the all knowing!!

I will never question you again.

[rdharma]

29. Glad to see you've finally realized that!

[CokeMachine]

30. Cool on you bro!!

At least I know where you are comming from!!

Note to Jury: the bolded below is what rdharma posted to me in another thread. I copied and pasted his post back to him and it got hidden. Some animals are more equal than others, apparently!!

Please see this link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=125011

Are you running a high fever?

Sounds like it. Because you are talking crazy nonsense! Seriously, dude!


But you got away with it. Good for you!! It just shows your bait is better than mine.

Did I ever tell you, you are my hero!!

[jimmy the one]

31. unwise to trust gun club leaders..

johnston: {murder in Oz} it started falling before the ban and continued to fall at the same rate. Since registered and licensed guns were not used in most crimes, Port Author being an exception, can't show that the law did.

Firearm homicides had risen the previous 4 or 5 years to the ban (1992-1997), & after the 96/97 buyback & ban, firearm homicides fell dramatically (red is 1992 & 93, green 97):

http://guncontrol.org.au/ .. aussie ban & britain's handgun ban weren't enacted solely to reduce the murder rate or firearm murder rates, but to reduce the risk of future massacres like dunblane & port arthur, as well as reduce guncrime rates, & prohibit gangs from misusing the ability to carry firearms.
.. Firearm suicide also showed a decline after the 1997 aussie ban, cutting the rate in half within 8 years. link above.

Sept 2012 The two graphs below show how the rates of firearm homicide and firearm suicide have varied in Australia over the period 1915 to 2006. More recent figures (up to 2009) suggest that the rates remain near 0.1/100k for firearm homicide and 0.8 for firearm suicide. It is clear that the declines in death rates are associated with the list of stricter gun laws introduced..
... Several Australian gun clubs are deceiving the public by claiming that the National Firearms Agreement of 1996 has not been successful. Sporting Shooters Assoc (SSAA) and Internat Coalition for Women Shooting and Hunting are 2 examples. We believe that soon our politicians will realise that it is often unwise to trust gun club leaders on gun law matters. {Hear Hear}.
.. the reduction in yearly rates of firearm homicide and firearm suicide are approximately two thirds of what they used to be in the days before improvements were made to the laws (The long period of approx 30 years between 1956 and 1986). Thousands of lives have been saved: why do the gun clubs deny this? Are they ashamed of their stance that more Australians would die?

[gejohnston]

33. which was published in a peer

Reviewed UK criminology journal and matches other study results. That trumps gun control groups.

[jimmy the one]

32. (ex) Aussie PM John Howard

Brothers in arms, yes, but the US needs to get rid of its guns
(Former Prime Minister Australia) John Howard August 1, 2012

EARLY in 2008 Janette and I were guests of the former president, George H. W. Bush or ”41”, as he is affectionately known, at his Presidential Library in College Station, Texas. I spoke to a warm and friendly audience of more than 300 who enthusiastically reacted until, in answer to a request to nominate the proudest actions of the Australian government I had led for almost 12 years, I included the national gun control laws enacted after the Port Arthur massacre in April 1996.
Having applauded my references to the liberation of East Timor, leaving Australia debt free, presiding over a large reduction in unemployment and standing beside the US in the global fight against terrorism, there was an audible gasp of amazement at my expressing pride in what Australia had done to limit the use of guns.

The Second Amendment, crafted in the immediate post-revolutionary years, is more than 200 years old and was designed to protect the right of local communities to raise and maintain militia for use against external threats (including the newly formed national govt!). It bears no relationship at all to the circumstances of everyday life in America today. Yet there is a near religious fervour about protecting the right of Americans to have their guns – and plenty of them.
..There is more to this than merely the lobbying strength of the National Rifle Association & the proximity of the {2012} presidential election. It is hard to believe that their reaction would have been any different if the murders in Aurora had taken place immediately after the election of either Obama or Romney. So deeply embedded is the gun culture of the US, that millions of law-abiding, Americans truly believe that it is safer to own a gun, based on the chilling logic that because there are so many guns in circulation, one’s own weapon is needed for self-protection. To put it another way, the situation is so far gone there can be no turning back.
The murder rate in the US is roughly four times that in each of Australia, New Zealand, and Britain. Even the most diehard supporter of guns must concede that America’s lax firearms laws are a major part of the explanation for such a disparity. http://guncontrol.org.au/

[gejohnston]

34. John Howard

Is a right wing neocon.

[jimmy the one]

36. CW conservatives

johnston: {former australian PM} John Howard Is a right wing neocon.

Which equates to about an american centrist, since an aussie or english tory is usually well left of the american right, & would abhor the american far right (I've no idea if he's a neocon).
Tories & UK commonwealth conservatives generally would be appalled to have assault rifles & superclips about, and generally support their respective gun bans. You make the point by pointing out that John Howard is an aussie conservative. Thanks.

churchill: Any 20 year-old who isnt a liberal doesnt have a heart, and any 40 year-old who isnt a conservative doesnt have a brain.. Winston-Churchill
But churchill wasn't referring to wayne lapierre & nra maggots, he was referring to the more moderate british style conservative, closer to a centrist in american politics.

johnston: ..published in a peer Reviewed UK criminology journal.. That trumps gun control groups.

What was? .. says who, you? rightwing aussie gun groups & gurus trump GC? .. laughable. You have some cheesy pretentious heroes good at manipulating data to their desired results:
wiki: Surveys showed up to 85% of Australians supported gun control.. Some shooters applied to join the Liberal Party of Australia in an attempt to influence the govt, but the Liberal Party barred them from membership

prior to newtown shootings, link in earlier post: July 2012 The Sporting Shooters Assoc of Australia (SSAA) has continually promoted gun law policies that would make Australian society similar to the private gun mayhem society called the USA.
Gun Control Australia condemn’s these sickening policies and the groups that hold on to them such as the SSAA. No organisation in Australia is working harder to destroy our successful gun laws than the SSAA; thus it has become an enormous danger to the future of our society. We call on the Gillard govt to break all ties with this ruthlessly selfish organisation that has such close associations with America’s National Rifle Association (NRA) and the international gun and ammunition trade.
A week ago major gun control groups in America released this statement concerning the recent mass gun murder in Colorado. Over 30 {American} National, State, and Local Gun Violence Prevention Groups Issue Statement on Colorado Mass Shooting (Including): Brady Campaign, Violence Policy Center (VPC), New Yorkers Against Gun Violence, Million Mom chapters, Cease Fire chapters... Gun Control Australia praises these organisations that seek to protect American people from the pro-violence policies of that country’s shooting groups

[gejohnston]

37. impressive

Which equates to about an american centrist, since an aussie or english tory is usually well left of the american right, & would abhor the american far right (I've no idea if he's a neocon).
Tories & UK commonwealth conservatives generally would be appalled to have assault rifles & superclips about, and generally support their respective gun bans. You make the point by pointing out that John Howard is an aussie conservative. Thanks.

Does it? I'm guessing UK and Commonwealth Tories would be more than happy to privatize the health care systems if they could get away with it. Remember, concepts like individualism, one of those Enlightenment things, hasn't caught on in those countries. Since conservatives generally believe, as Edmund Burke did, one needed the Church and the Crown to keep people, who are inherently evil, in line. Of course conservatives there would not like the masses being armed.
http://lataan.blogspot.com/2008/03/neocons-reward-john-howard-ex.html

churchill: Any 20 year-old who isnt a liberal doesnt have a heart, and any 40 year-old who isnt a conservative doesnt have a brain.. Winston-Churchill
But churchill wasn't referring to wayne lapierre & nra maggots, he was referring to the more moderate british style conservative, closer to a centrist in american politics.

so?

What was? .. says who, you? rightwing aussie gun groups & gurus trump GC? .. laughable. You have some cheesy pretentious heroes good at manipulating data to their desired results:
wiki: Surveys showed up to 85% of Australians supported gun control.. Some shooters applied to join the Liberal Party of Australia in an attempt to influence the govt, but the Liberal Party barred them from membership

http://bjc.oxfordjournals.org/content/47/3/455.abstract
They formed their own party, and the the government is a Labour/Green coalition. What's the point? Who did the surveys? In spite of the name the Liberal Party, that is the right of center party there.

prior to newtown shootings, link in earlier post: July 2012 The Sporting Shooters Assoc of Australia (SSAA) has continually promoted gun law policies that would make Australian society similar to the private gun mayhem society called the USA.
Gun Control Australia condemn’s these sickening policies and the groups that hold on to them such as the SSAA. No organisation in Australia is working harder to destroy our successful gun laws than the SSAA; thus it has become an enormous danger to the future of our society. We call on the Gillard govt to break all ties with this ruthlessly selfish organisation that has such close associations with America’s National Rifle Association (NRA) and the international gun and ammunition trade.
A week ago major gun control groups in America released this statement concerning the recent mass gun murder in Colorado. Over 30 {American} National, State, and Local Gun Violence Prevention Groups Issue Statement on Colorado Mass Shooting (Including): Brady Campaign, Violence Policy Center (VPC), New Yorkers Against Gun Violence, Million Mom chapters, Cease Fire chapters... Gun Control Australia praises these organisations that seek to protect American people from the pro-violence policies of that country’s shooting groups

successful at what? There have been three mass murders with death tolls higher than any of the mass shootings other than Port Author. They were arsons. Gun ownership is the same level that it was before NFA. NSW has twice the number of privately owned guns than before NFA.
As for the rest of it, it is cheap name calling and demonetization propaganda. Here I always had you as having more class.
That rates up there with MAIG's bus tour listing Tamerlin Tsarnaev, Christopher Dorner, and a couple of knife wielding home invaders, who chose poorly, as "victims of gun violence."

[rdharma]

35. John Oliver on Australia's gun laws