Why not start here...

[sarisataka]

I am reminded of the old saying "Everyone complains about the weather but no one does anything about it". Well the weather is beyond human control, mostly, but human influences are not.

For various reasons- and no need to throw stones- post Sandy Hook has been more of the same. Likely post Navy Yard will be more of the same. What can we brainstorm here to do about it?

IMO Universal Background Checks are the closest goal in reach. UBC has wide spread support, even among the majority of gun owners and NRA members, the exact percentage is quite irrelevant. Yet every attempt at strengthening the law is stillborn. How can we as Democrats, many of us in this group gun owners and others who do not own guns but have beliefs as passionate, start the change.

Congress would be best but we see 'it ain't gonna happen'.

So state level... Is it possible to form petition groups to get referendums on the ballot? With the wide support base, the People should be able to make their voices heard. What to do about non-referendum states? We like to think we are a smart group, let's have ideas.

We know the law will not be perfect, it will not catch everything, but it will help.
My concept:
-All sales of guns must pass an NCIS check.
-It can be done by dealers at a set rate or county level LE
-It will include sales to family members and inheritances.
-Gift transactions must be done within 60 days of the gift
-Loans do not need to go through a check
-a transfer of possession is considered a loan if the duration is less than 60 days. After that it is a gift and must be submitted to NCIS on day 60
-during the duration of the loan, the possessor of the gun is solely liable for any civil suit arising from negligence or misuse
-the owner of the gun may be held criminal liable as an accessory, or other applicable state law, for any criminal use of the gun by the borrower
-stolen guns must be reported within 7 days of the theft, or face a fine set by the state
-an owner of a stolen firearm is liable as if it were a loan until it is reported stolen or the owner is able to prove they could not have known it was stolen (House robbed while out or country or other verifiable extenuating circumstance)

Does anyone think this could start at the grassroots or am I wishing for a rainbow and a unicorn?

[bossy22]

1. Get rid of the dealer requirement and family member requirement

Make NICS open to the public and require it on all non-familial sales.

On edit: ballot measures may not be as successful as you believe. The "widespread support" is based on polls which are really just symbolic on most peoples' belief that criminals should not have guns. It does not directly translate into actual voting support for such proposals. One key example of this is the 1982 (IIRC) handgun "Freeze" which was on the ballot in california. All polls indicated that the measure would pass. In the end, it failed. The same goes for the Brazilian referendum a few years ago

[sarisataka]

3. Ideally it would be open to the public

with appropriate safeguards but for any measure of success registration would be needed to make it effective. Honestly without registration and UBC is not complete but that is a separate, harder battle.

I think a "soft' UBC (w/o registration) would give both sides a chance to prove the other wrong. we should find that the majority of gun owners are responsible and will do there best to comply. Also we should see that control forces are not jack booted thugs looking to kick doors in and will encourage use of the system. After time it can lead to a decentralized registration, calming confiscation fears and open NCIS to the public to do their own checks.

[clffrdjk]

20. Frog in a hot pot technique

Otherwise known as the "slippery slope." Yep that same slippery slope that we have been told we were crazy for mentioning.

UBC I can support if it is just letting me pick up a phone and call the FBI line or punch in the info on a website like FFL's do now.

I like the 60 day period for lending but as you said it is unenforcible without registration and I place registration in the "will never support" category right next to voter ID.

[sarisataka]

23. I do believe there are some GC groups

that plan to slide down that slope all the way to the bottom- some have stated as much. My thought is the if the legislation is passed with a coalition of reasonable GC supporters and liberal leaning gun owners it would avoid the slope. The moderate majority could hold off the extremes of too draconian or too open laws.

[gejohnston]

26. Hope you are right

[sarisataka]

27. Since I am wishing for a rainbow and a unicorn...

I figured why not just wish for a rainbow unicorn

[Eleanors38]

34. Well, the unicorn among us may appear...

I like the idea of a Firearm Owners I.D. (FOID) included with a state-issued official I.D., to be accompanied by a vastly improved and speedy revocation/notification network when a disqualifying crime or mental incompetency finding is made. (Why there is slop and lag time with today's technology is beyond me.)

The big question is strategy. Right now, the RKBA forces are muscle-bound ideologically, and more broadly to the right of the RKBA left/center. It is incumbent in us to

1) I.D. Gun groups and others who are of like minds on UBC, and otherwise politically tolerable;

2) Negotiate a uniform legislative position(s);

3) Settle on a strategy, both nationally and where possible by state;

4) Seek funding & volunteers to push measures.

Perhaps we should begin by dealing first with #1.

[sarisataka]

50. Agreed, good points

there perception is most gun owners are so far right they are falling off the flat earth. IMO many do have centrist values and would be willing to work to set up reasonable measures to keep guns out of criminal hands and promote safety.

They are easily spooked however by being burned in the past. In choosing between rhetoric, they gravitate towards the one that seems to be in there best interest (NRA) even if they do not fully agree with the total message. Bring them into a coalition with those who favor reasonable and fair GC measures can be a winning combination.

[Eleanors38]

55. That is the dynamic I see with the NRA. It has become too successful...

not in terms of its various RKBA successes, but in its virtual alliance with a convinced extremist element which has become a tiger. The NRA leadership holds onto that tail while the true believers bid up the meaning of.commitment.
I don't think some in the party or MSM realize the sophistication and competency of the group, I'm not sure that I do.

Maybe all the strong RKBA groups who want a different course should meet in a Kansas corn field and talk it over and decide on a course of action. Any move will be fiercely fought by both the controllers and the NRA. Like the Cold War, enemies rely on loving to hate each other.

[NYC_SKP]

2. It's a tough row to hoe. Maybe it's not so tough with people in the real world.

But people on a discussion board can be pretty difficult to reason with.

To your suggestions I would add:

-- Forfeiture of guns and gun ownership rights for minor gun incidents, like a negligent discharge, with possible restoral of rights if one passes a comprehensive gun safety course.

-- Permanent forfeiture of guns and ownership rights for proven misuse of guns, ie use to intimidate, to vandalize, use in a violent act, use to shoot out tires, etc...

-- Comprehensive gun safety training required for all new and used gun purchases and transfers. Same for ammo. No card, no gun, no ammo.

-- Where a firearm is sold to a person in a household where there are minors, the owner must affirmatively demonstrate that tools and strategies are in place to safely store the firearms.

-- Children of school age should be provided with gun safety training sessions annually, as we've done in the past with drugs, tobacco, STDs, and driving.

These are just off the top of my head.

[sarisataka]

4. Some good ideas...

-misuse leads to suspension, much like DL. Though the analogy of licensing guns and cars is a somewhat flawed comparison it is one of the best we have.

-forfeiture for willful misuse seems consistent with current views on disqualified persons

-I would make broad categories for gun types rather than each individual firearm. Mostly a revolver is a revolver, a bolt action is the same... Safety training could have expiration dates so a new purchase after x years since training requires a retake of that course

-I think we have the laws re: child safety, they are just ridiculously variable in enforcement. The safety around minors should be part of the training, laws enforced and the suspension/forfeiture above invoked when a minor gets access to a gun

-I do not know if the training needs to be annual, but it should be reinforced through the school years. I do not see why it cannot be incorporated into fire and home safety already taught. We only need to teach how to avoid accident and injury, not create marksmen

[oneshooter]

21. This part "use in a violent act" could be used to outlaw legal defensive use of a firearm.

[NYC_SKP]

22. Great point. We would definitely have to refine the language to exclude defensive uses.

And these regulations could be subject to abuse by LEOs and DAs.

But that's always a danger. The devil's in the details.

[Pullo]

5. I get that universal background checks are the "low hanging fruit" of gun restriction proposals

Undoubtedly, today's shooting will bring gun control supporters in Washington running to the nearest TV cameras. Many of them will call for laws that wouldn't do a thing to have prevented this tragic attack. Since Alexis had a Texas CHL, he already went through a background check. Apparently he had also secret clearance to the shipyard and was given a military-issued ID card. I'd assume he had to undergo a background check of some sort as well for that, but I'm not certain. Either way, it doesn't look like the background check billthe Senate rejected earlier this year would have done anything to prevent today's events.

The other elephant in the room RKBA supporters are extremely skeptical of the intent of any politician advocating any new gun laws, for a variety of reasons. For one thing, many of the antis are ignorant as a stone when it comes to firearms. Many out there WOULD like to see everyone's guns taken away. There's a strong contingent right here on the DU that feels that way. A couple decades ago, gun control advocates openly floated the idea of civilian disarmament. Though today's gun control movement isn't openly calling for banning or severely restricting most firearms, nobody in the gun community believes gun control supporters when they say "nobody wants to take away your guns." This crowd has long memories. Just look at the New York Safe Act. Its a defacto confiscation scheme for many popular firearms. DiFi's most recent AWB contained similar provisions.

I really don't see an incentive for RKBA supporters to support new gun restrictions. Nobody expects a UBC bill to significantly effect gun crime rates. Also, nobody in the pro RKBA community believes that letting a UBC bill pass will appease the antis one bit. As soon as the next tragedy happens, they'd try to impose harsher restrictions.

So in other words, expect much sound and fury, but at the end of the day, little else.

[sarisataka]

10. The baggage

of past attempts at control do hinder current efforts. Even here where some say no one wants to take guns, we can find many calls to melt them down... As proRKBA are called on to counter extremist 'gunz everywhere' types so must those favoring controls must counter their own extremists. I believe Obama has done well as a voice favoring greater control while respecting rights, too many will oppose him either because A) he's a Democrat, B) he's black or C) he's a black Democrat. We as liberal gun owners need to find our voice; the NRA is the self proclaimed leader but hardly speaks for us on the left side of the spectrum.

I agree also that RKBA has little reason to support increased restrictions. Despite claims to the contrary, GC is not sweeping the nation. The reason to support reasonable control is that every pendulum will swing back and if there is not already compromise, severe restrictions could end up in place some day.

[Pullo]

18. Well, I can agree to a point.

However, he did push a new "Assault Weapons" Ban. Such a position is a "red line" when it comes to the 2nd A. It betrays all the other "reasonable" gun policies he has championed. It also is consistent with his early career actions on gun control.

Given the success the RKBA movement has achieved over gun policy in the last 2-3 decades, by fundamentalist opposition, it's hard to imagine the "pendulum" and "compromise" argument will have any sway. The last couple decade's success of the RKBA movement incentivizes the opposite.

[Eleanors38]

35. Some of this is tired language: I don't see UCB as "gun control" but

instead as gun rights protection. If someone is not eligible to possess a firearm, but nevertheless is found with one, then he/she is controlled, and the law-abiding gun-owners stand out with protected rights. Frame the debate terms more favorably.

[ManiacJoe]

6. The concept of UBC is a good one.

Most folks agree with that. Thus the poll results.

The problems folks get into are the implementation methods of the proposed bills. This is where things tend to go bad because the folks writing the implementations are looking to do more than UBC or just don't understand what they are attempting in the first place.

[sarisataka]

12. There is a natural tendency

to try to get everything all at once to end up getting as much as you can at that time. Unfortunately we saw after Sandy Hook, some thought they could get all at once and by over-reaching ended with nothing.

Though RKBA is often ridiculed for the details, they are important. Drug schedules are tailored to specific drugs with the aid of medical experts; there are very few pharmacists in Congress. We would laugh at a generic law that addressed painkillers and treated aspirin the same as morphine but in firearms legislation that is often what happens.

[gejohnston]

7. I like the purchase "permit" sytem

like Michigan has had since the 1960s. Basically, you go to the local PD, they do a NICS check, and you get a print out good for 30 days. If I can renew my DL on line, there is no reason anyone should be able to do the same at home with a verification number that can be double checked by the seller.

[sarisataka]

11. There are systems out there

both opt-in and opt-out that could accomplish the goal. It is sad to see these ready to implement solutions get lost in the arguing.

[gejohnston]

15. it isn't about guns,

it is about control. It is a culture war, which the prohibition lobby wants, well..........prohibition for the 99 percent. So, I don't think proposing anything will do anything to stop that goal. But then, I'm cynical. That said, I'm not saying we repeal NFA either. I'm for UBC as a good thing to do, but I don't see it doing what either side wants.

[sarisataka]

24. Compromise...

is everyone goes home equally disappointed by what they didn't get

[rrneck]

8. Registration is the fly in the ointment. nt

[sarisataka]

13. So true

it is a solution to so many goals and so unobtainable now that it is hard to envision when any registration law could be enacted.

[Eleanors38]

37. If the ACLU was serious about their objections to the early Manchin-Toomey

mark-up, they might be a good ally in any UCB effort.

[sarisataka]

49. I would welcome the ACLU to join in

I think they would be a good mediator group in helping define rights vs. responsibilities

[AtheistCrusader]

9. I feel your pain.

You won't find anyone here more 'pro gun' than I am.

BUT.

I think UBC is a half-assed measure that won't help much, but is worth doing. You see, I want to keep guns out of the hands of shitbags. That's a given. I ALSO want to ruin the value of a firearm on the black market as well, which makes my guns less of a target for theft. So I support universal registration. It's possible. We did it with fully auto weapons. We can do it with all firearms.

It's going to require some 'give' though. Open the NFA registry. And it's going to have to cost less to register a gun than the NFA tax stamps. 200 bucks is a non-starter for most gun owners. I couldn't even afford to register all my guns at that price. I'd sooner buy a car. Or sell 5 or 7 of them so I could afford the rest.

My proposal, and I stand by it:

1. Open the NFA registry.
2. Extend the NFA registry down to include semi-auto weapons or all weapons.
3. Make the registration permanent. None of this 're-register every 2 years' horseshit. It's mine till I transfer it.
4. No onerous regulations around 'transfers' to a spouse or kid, or friend, at the range. As long as I own it, it's MINE and my responsibility, handing it to my co-worker doesn't constitute a 'transfer' of ownership.
5. Mandatory minimums for unlawful possession.
6. Another excise tax on sales, to defray registry costs, and to fund LEO follow-up on guns that are possessed by people who have BECOME ineligible.


So, we get:

no more grey market transfers or sneaky shit.
can confiscate weapons from people with new restraining orders or DV charges.

They get:

NFA weapons
cheaper registration

[sarisataka]

14. I believe a few small steps would be a nice beginning

but a total package deal would be optimum. I do not know if opening NFA would be a big enough carrot. Most gun owners cannot afford a full auto piece, though I can see suppressors being fairly popular.

I would think that national reciprocity would appeal to a far greater number. To balance the current issues with state variances, leave the licensing at the state level but have federally mandated minimum standards of class time and skill demonstration that state programs must meet for those they issue carry permits.

[AtheistCrusader]

16. Full auto pieces only cost more because of the NFA registry.

It limits them to an existing pool, no new ones. So instant collectors value.

It costs probably five bucks more to turn out a M16 over my AR-15's. (In fact, since mine are pre-86 AR's, it actually cost MORE in labor costs to reduce them to AR-15's, because they all came off the same assembly line.

[mwrguy]

17. UBC and registration are a logical first step

[Eleanors38]

38. How many more logical steps follow the first and why?

[oneshooter]

40. He is a gun banner. Wants to ban pump shotguns.

"Why not?

If you can kill 8 people in 8 seconds with it, then it doesn't need to be on the streets.

The Aurora shooter did most of his killing with a pump shotgun as well.

It seems to be just as bad as a Bushmaster."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12624764

[Eleanors38]

41. When you hear "First step..." You have the measure of someone.

[petronius]

44. That's a pretty solid clue, certainly

Another one is that whenever anyone posts about what 'the gungeoneers' are saying or thinking, you can be pretty sure that some horrendous bullshit is about to follow. (This actually applies to most generalities about any 'they', 'them', or 'those people.')

And all across DU, any variant of "So, what you're saying is..." will almost invariably be the precursor to some remarkably asinine and brain-meltingly ignorant drivel...

[Eleanors38]

46. I wonder if the higher ups at DU share the.same outlook?

[sarisataka]

48. I give kudos to some in our companion group

who have spoken out against the 'ban them all' calls in that thread. I was quite surprised by some names who were in opposition.

Perhaps there is hope for all of us

[Eleanors38]

51. I hope so. I welcome your ideas and plan of action.

I listed some ideas in an earlier post. Maybe it is best to determine what groups could form a potential coalition. Liberal Gun Club, Blue Steel Democrats, IFOA come to mind.

Christ, in the day we would meet in an empty courthouse room, and right letters -- maybe phone -- to form a bigger meeting, then go from there. How is it done, now?

[sarisataka]

53. I haven't worked hard at drafting legislation in a very long time

usually I try and get an opportunity for a few minutes face to face time with a Rep. for brainstorming and let others carry the water.
I'll need to brush up on what works these days.

It will be a hard sell but if we could get the non-NRA groups that helped get shall-issue passed that would be a dream situation. They have experience and success at getting legislation passed and strong pro-gun groups promoting UBC would be a major counterweight to NRA influence. It would add some backbone to wavering legislators.

[gejohnston]

54. Twitter and website

But be prepared to being accused of being a MAIG false flag by Wayne (who's take home pay is TWICE what they spend on lobbying. That is before you get to Cox and the guy who actually runs the place) and honest but skeptical folks.
I agree with you guys (aside my cynicism about prohibitionists), but that is challenge to deal with.

[Eleanors38]

56. I would expect that crap from the NRA. But if the alternative is good enough, that will be

the thing.

[jeepnstein]

19. Navy Yard shooter had a "secret" security clearance.

It had been updated fairly recently. Oh, and he was being treated by the VA for mental illness that included hearing voices.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_NAVY_YARD_SHOOTING_GUNMAN_MENTAL_HEALTH?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-09-17-08-03-32

His clearance didn't get pulled. And he was not flagged in NICS. His family knew he had mental health issues. He'd been arrested previously for incidents involving the use of a firearm. So pretty much it would seem to me that nobody cared about Mr. Alexis one little bit until he took a shotgun to the Navy Yard and opened fire.

These spree shooters all have displayed serious mental health issues. It's not the healthy and law abiding population that is the problem here.

[Pullo]

25. Mental health and NICS need some changes no doubt.

His clearance didn't get pulled. And he was not flagged in NICS.

This right here is the thing that needs to be focused on.

[Eleanors38]

39. Frankly, mass shootings are a diff breed of cat compared to the drone of violent crime.

Any possible amelioration of that problem is almost custom & site-specific, and not affected by general approaches, be they UCB or even registration (which I oppose). And such custom measures will be expensive, uncomfortable, and difficult to verify as to effectiveness.

[gopiscrap]

28. good

[NYC_SKP]

29. I appreciate this thread, sarisataka. Rational, mature. I wish others could find it in their heart

K/R

[sarisataka]

30. I have hope still

but it is going to take patience. 99% here share a philosophy and want to reach the same place but have different means of getting there. We are just a microcosm of this issue overall.

There is a book that says let he who has no sin cast the first stone; I don't qualify so I won't cast. I don't think any of us would qualify. Some way, some how we will get past our animosity, bigotry and past slanders to each other and reach our goal. Unfortunately it will be later rather than sooner.

I just look forward to the day when a law is proposed that the gunners will say we can live with that and the controllers will say that is reasonable. It will not be perfect because the deaths will still be greater than zero but we will make an honest effort to be as close as we can.

[gejohnston]

31. I think any workable proposal has to be

done by gunners. Does the FCC have Chinese Poetry scholars writing their regulations or radio guys and gals? Same concept. If it has to be on a state level, it should be from people within that state proposing it, not NYC employees registered as MAIG lobbyists. Of course keeping the Adam Kokeshes and Mike Bloombergs from making a mess of things would be the hard part.
Before we do anything new, I think we need to start with fixing what is already done be it my proposals for modernizing and reforming NFA to dealing with the real issues, some not gun related, with the DC Navy Yard. Things like:
How did Seattle PD screw up his 2004 arrest? Taking out a tire during a black out has Baker Act written all over it.
Why didn't the VA hospitalize him and report him to NICS when they knew he no longer shared the same reality as the rest of us?
After Rhode Island authorities reported to his employer about his filing a police report about being threatened by microwaves, why wasn't Defense Security Service notified? Or is DSS contracted out to some for profit company? Why didn't the Navy Yard's chain of command not clued in?

[Eleanors38]

42. I agree with your arguments. Any legislation will have to

Come from pro-RKBA folks. I couldn't believe that asshole drew a pass from Washington state authorities. That was a felony.

[gejohnston]

45. thanks, had to make a couple of edits

I was thinking Kokesh and wrote Koresh. Freudian slip perhaps. Neither are on my list of "people I would want to have a beer with."
BTW, any word on his DC stunt?

[Eleanors38]

47. No, and I hope he doesn't any crappy songs about the 7 seals. Animals deserve better.

[GreenStormCloud]

32. Change that "7days of a theft" to "7 days of the discovery of a theft".

I don't inventory my guns every week.

[sarisataka]

33. The discovery issue is two edged

I don't do serialized inventory daily but would be aware of a missing gun from my house in short order. I also have some stored elsewhere for better security but it might be four days before I learned of a break in.

That is why I added the part about not knowing the theft had taken place. It could apply in a person stole and otherwise secured weapon from your house than robbed the local gas station while you were at work. Likely you have no way of knowing your gun is missing until you come home.

[oneshooter]

36. I thought that I had lost a 20ga shotgun last week.

I keep an inventory sheet of each safes content inside the safe. When I recently upgraded one of my safes I had to remove everything inside of it so the old safe could be removed(a 4 hour job as it was bolted to both the floor AND the wall)after securing the new safe to floor and wall I moved the contents of the old safe into the new. I took this time to do a quick oil patch down the bore and a fresh oiling of the metal and action. Something was wrong, the contents did not equal the inventory sheet. Double checked, and still short. I then opened up the other safes and began a visual scan of the contents. Found it in the second row of #4 safe. It was placed there by my youngest son when he helped me put up firearms after a match. After a quick patch in each barrel and a oily rag on the outside metal it was returned to its proper place in the cosmos.

Life returns to normal. Raining today, time to reload and relax.

[Eleanors38]

43. Raining here, too (finally). Should sleep well tonight. Hope you are well.

[sarisataka]

52. I've had that moment of panic

when I realized something was not in its proper place. After returning from the range I was in a hurry so put a pistol in the bedroom lock box instead of the secure cabinet. I was wondering if somehow I could have left it at the range though I remembered carrying the case out...
It took several minutes of mentally retracing my steps to remember where I had put it.

[oneshooter]

57. It is somewhat of a scary feeling ain't it.

[Niceguy1]

58. sounds good

But the last three arent very enforceable.

[Riftaxe]

59. Open NCIS to the public

That I would support 100%.

Your suggestions to alleviate thieves from Civil liability are a bit odd.