In Virginia governor’s race, gun control surfaces late as a key issue

[mwrguy]

Bloomberg is outspending the NRA 4 to 1 in their home state.

After months of inattention, Ken Cuccinelli II (R) and Terry McAuliffe (D) have drawn the polarizing issue of guns into the spotlight of the Virginia governor’s race.

For once, a Democrat is talking tough about gun control, as if daring the National Rifle Association to take him on.

It began with the Oct. 24 candidate’s debate at Virginia Tech, the site of the worst mass shooting by an individual in U.S. history. In response to a question, Cuccinelli boasted of his A rating from the NRA.

And then McAuliffe did something surprising: He said he didn’t give a fig about the powerful lobby’s rating. And, oh, by the way, he had earned an F.

Gun-control groups were equally wound up. Left dispirited by President Obama’s lack of action on firearms, some took heart in hearing a Democrat talking tough about new gun-control measures.

Outsiders have also taken a stand. The Independence USA PAC, created by New York Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg (I), has spent nearly $2.3 million in Virginia this year, according to records with the Virginia Public Access Project, riling up gun-rights advocates who see him as a busybody.

The NRA, with headquarters in Fairfax County, has poured more than $500,000 into this year’s elections, all of it for Republicans.

“I just don’t think the NRA carries the power that they want everyone to believe,” said Lori Haas, whose daughter also was injured in the Virginia Tech shooting. “They’re a paper tiger.”

Democrats and gun-control advocates said a shift in demographics and the continuing series of mass shootings — including at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., in December — have reframed the debate since the last election cycle.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/in-virginia-governors-race-gun-control-surfaces-late-as-a-key-issue/2013/11/01/0733d32c-4249-11e3-a624-41d661b0bb78_story_1.html

[friendly_iconoclast]

1. Meh. An out-of-state authoritarian vs. the local one

Cuccinelli has basically handed the election to McAuliffe anyway due to his RW nuttiness, so it's not as if
Bloomberg's money has made all that much difference.

[coldmountain]

2. I's say that too if I was pushing guns

Last edited Sun Nov 3, 2013, 11:47 AM - Edit history (1)

[friendly_iconoclast]

13. And what would you say if you weren't?

Are you laboring under the idea that Michael Bloomberg isn't an authoritarian?

[gejohnston]

3. Bloomberg and an couple of other billionares

outspent the NRA and allies 7-1 in Colorado in a strongly Democratic district and a purple district. The result was exactly what the incumbents own polls predicted.

[coldmountain]

4. The lowlife nuts come out in the recalls! Watch the gun crowd get crushed in this election

The pro gun crowd is so degenerate that even Bloomberg looks good in comparison.

[gejohnston]

5. it less about guns than

it was about out of state billionaires and NYC employees writing and lobbying for laws in another state. Not only those two ignore and disrespect their constituents, and bragged about it on national TV, they put the interests of big money ahead of the people who put therm in office. That pisses people off. Polls are based on all registered voters. If there were a 100 percent turn out, the result would be the same. Speaking of degenerate, the prohibition crowd use dishonesty, emotional appeal, name calling, and incapable of making a logical argument. People like Sugarmann, Watts, and Bloomberg see mass shootings as a political opportunity not as a tragedy. Bombings, stabbings, etc, are simply not on their radar.

[coldmountain]

6. Speaking of out of state billionaires,aren't the NRA de facto ALEC supporters and Kochsuc#ers?

Hilarious when gun pushers say their opponents appeal to emotions and dishonesty

[gejohnston]

7. they may be members of ALEC,

but they are also a membership organization that can mobilize the grass roots. The Kochs may also be members of ALEC, which is really a lobbyist co-op, but they don't give a shit about guns. Historically, the corporate elites, including the media, have been for stricter gun laws until it occurred to publicly claim otherwise would endure their agenda to many in the 99 percent. They do the same with the Evangelicals, but as Tucker Carlson once admitted conservatives and the Republican party will pander to them, but really can't stand them.

Yeah Ted Nugent is an ass clown, but compare this with Piers Morgan's inability to do anything beyond name calling. He also isn't speaking for any organization, he is speaking as a burnt out rock star.
Tell you what, show me one gun control argument that is honest and accurate.

[coldmountain]

8. Japan has few guns and few murders with guns, so does New Zealand and Ireland.

It's much harder to murder people without guns, you have to get close and personal. That's why I think there's a big yellow streak down the back of many of the gun pushers.

[gejohnston]

9. post hoc ergo propter hoc

I guess I should have mentioned free of logical fallacies.
New Zealand's gun ownership rate is about the same as France and Florida (25 percent of households). Japan's culture has more to do with it than anything else, Ireland does not have the gang/drug problem we do. Come to think of it, neither do most other countries. The countries you listed also doesn't have the inequality of wealth that we do. That 's for starters. Japan has per capita more murder/suicides than we do. They are simply listed as suicides. BTW, Russia also has very few guns and a murder rate that makes us look like Japan. Brazil also has very strict laws, their murder rate also makes us look like Japan. Then there is Norway, which is second or third highest gun ownership rate, with a murder rate lower than Japan's.
Notice I said murder, not gun murder.

[coldmountain]

10. Keep calling good liberals liars cause they want less guns and stricter regulations

Excuses, excuse from a gun pusher, Massachusetts is other Americans living in a diverse industrialized state with a lot of population density and they have less murders as well.

I know it's impossible to convert a "gun enthusiast" so I'll quit trying, they only change when the bullet strikes close to home. I've seen that a bunch.

[gejohnston]

11. I haven't called good liberals anything

Faux liberals, maybe. Bloomberg isn't a liberal. OK so we agree with him on gay marriage, but he is conservative on everything else. I don't know about Sugarmann. Watts' last job was PR flack for Monsanto, and what is now the Brady Center was partly founded by Joe McNamera, who was once a San Jose police chief and now works at the Hoover Institute. I don't picture many liberals there. Bill Buckley was a gun control advocate.
I am calling the former Australian PM John Howard a liar, but he is a right wing neocon.
Are you saying I'm calling Piers Morgan a liar? I don't know about good liberal, but he is certainly a pompous boor who probably actually believes his bullshit.

Mass isn't one of the drug distribution hub like Chicago, NOLA, or Dallas either. USVI has even stricter laws that Hawaii and Guam, or Mass for that matter, yet is 30 times Massachusetts.

Excuses? Not from me. I try to make only sound rational arguments. If you call that an excuse fine.

[friendly_iconoclast]

14. Piers Morgan was one of Rupert Murdoch's high-level lieutenants

That should tell you all you need to know about his character

Bloomberg (amongst others, but him especially) knows how to play the
faux liberal card, as Walter Benn Michaels describes in

"Let Them Eat Diversity: multiculturalism as an artifact of neoliberalism"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022969789

http://jacobinmag.com/2011/01/let-them-eat-diversity/

Major social changes have taken place in the past 40 years with remarkable rapidity, but not any in any sense inimical to capitalism. Capitalism has no problem with gay people getting married and people who self-identify as neoliberals understand this very well. So I think the main thing to say there is that, maybe in the book a lot of the examples tend to be academic examples, but I think you can find examples in American society everywhere of the extraordinary power, the hegemony of the model of anti-discrimination, accompanied by defense of property, as the guiding precepts of social justice. You can see this in the study that people have recently been making fun of—the one that shows that liberals are not as liberal as they think they are. What it showed was that when people were asked about the question of redistribution of wealth they turned out to be a lot less egalitarian than they thought they were. People who characterized themselves as “extremely liberal” nevertheless had real problems with the redistribution of wealth. And someone pointed out, I think he teaches at Stanford, that that’s the wrong way to think of this, because yes it’s true that especially as people get more wealthy they tend to become less committed to the redistribution of wealth but there are lots of ways in which they become “more liberal”—with respect to gay rights, antiracism, with respect to all the so-called “social issues,” as long as these social issues are defined in such a way that they have nothing to do with decreasing the increased inequalities brought about by capitalism, which is to say, taking away rich liberals’ money.

To put it bluntly, anyone that takes support for gun control as a marker for progessivism
has been conned

[Mojorabbit]

52. The Democratic platform disagrees.

"We recognize that the individual right to bear arms is an important part of the American tradition, and we will preserve Americans' Second Amendment right to own and use firearms." It does call for an increase in gun regulations. There are plenty of liberal gun owners and they are certainly "good" liberals.

[friendly_iconoclast]

53. What would *you* know about what a good liberal is?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024018970#post22

"It's OK to run Republican memes against Hillary but not against Indian princess Warren?"

I hope it's *really* cold on top of that mountain:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=301963

[Lizzie Poppet]

18. All three are islands.

Think about that...

[friendly_iconoclast]

12. Piers Morgan is Ted Nugent with better grooming and slightly more couth

Both of them have somehow gotten the notion that the ability to garner attention is a sign of wisdom.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

54. I think this sums it up...

[VADem1980]

15. So proud to be in VA right now.

Honestly, if it puts a strong anti-2A Democrat in the governor's seat, Mr. Bloomberg, or anyone else can spend all the money they want down here in VA!

[Jenoch]

16. What specific laws in relation to guns do you wish

to be enacted in Virginia?

[VADem1980]

17. What do I WANT or expect?

Two very different things.

What I EXPECT from our leaders is similar to New York- a complete ban on assault weapons (anything semi-automatic), a ban on hand guns, a ban on open carry, may issue concealed carry, (expensive) permits required for each and everyone gun in the home.

What I WANT is a complete ban followed by a Federal repeal of the Second Amendment. Possession only by the military. All law enforcement (and government employed game population control experts) would keep firearms locked in a federally monitored armoury.

[Lizzie Poppet]

19. Even your expectations are way out on the fringe.

And will never, ever be enacted in this country as currently constituted...

[Jenoch]

20. What I find interesting is that

quite frequently, gun control advocates mock pro RKBA propenents when they say gun grabbers want to confiscate their guns. At least you have stated that you want all privately owned guns to be confiscated by the government. What sort of compensation would you propose under your scenario?

[Straw Man]

21. Educate yourself.

What I EXPECT from our leaders is similar to New York- a complete ban on assault weapons (anything semi-automatic), a ban on hand guns, a ban on open carry, may issue concealed carry, (expensive) permits required for each and everyone gun in the home.

Do you have the slightest shred of a clue about what laws New York currently has? I'll give you hint: You're about 60% wrong.

What I WANT is a complete ban followed by a Federal repeal of the Second Amendment. Possession only by the military. All law enforcement (and government employed game population control experts) would keep firearms locked in a federally monitored armoury.

As for the rest of your wish list, all I can say is that the Tea Party will be eternally grateful to you for driving the vast center of the American political spectrum straight into their (formerly) paranoid embrace.

[VADem1980]

22. 60% Wrong, eh?

Let's take a look at the Wikipedia entry-

assault weapons (anything semiautomatic)- On January 15, 2013, the state assault weapons ban was made more restrictive by the NY SAFE Act. Specified rifle magazines are banned: a) manufactured after 1994; and b) the magazine holds in excess of 10 rounds (handguns included). A 10 round magazine is permissible, but may only contain 7 rounds. Any semi-automatic rifle or shotgun with just one of these features are banned: 1) pistol grip; 2) bayonet lug; 3) telescoping or folding stock; 4) flash suppressor; 5) threaded barrel; or 6) grenade launcher.[4][5][6] The SAFE Act expanded the ban to add the following features: 7) muzzle brake; 8) muzzle compensator; 9) thumbhole stock; and 10) foregrip.[7] All semi-automatic versions of "assault" style rifles and shotguns purchased prior to January 15, 2013 are grandfathered, but must be registered within one year of the SAFE Act passage.[8]

a ban on hand guns - New York City, which is effectively a "no-issue" jurisdiction for carry pistol licenses,[10] has even stricter laws, including those regulating handguns exclusively kept at home, thereby making it difficult to virtually impossible for ordinary citizens to obtain, possess, or carry firearms lawfully within New York City.[11]

May issue concealed carry, permits for each weapon- New York is a "may-issue" state, in that the individual licensing official (typically a local police chief or sheriff) has discretion to issue a license or permit to possess handguns, or carry a concealed firearm. The licensing authority may require the licensee go through firearms training and education, or dictate the conditions under which a permit holder can possess handguns or carry a concealed weapon

My expectations are what millions of other perfectly sane people wish to enjoy the protections of!

[Straw Man]

23. Yes, 60% wrong.

What I EXPECT from our leaders is similar to New York- a complete ban on assault weapons (anything semi-automatic), a ban on hand guns, a ban on open carry, may issue concealed carry, (expensive) permits required for each and everyone gun in the home.

Even NY's SAFE Act doesn't come close to a "complete ban" on "anything semi-automatic."

Handguns are tightly regulated in NY, but are not completely banned, even in NYC.

Yes, open carry is illegal.

Yes, "may issue" is the order of the day.

While all handguns must be listed on a New York State pistol permit, there is not a separate permit required for each one, and the cost to add each handgun to a permit is a minimal administrative fee -- $5 in my county.

Three out of your five contentions are untrue, so yes, 60% wrong.

[VADem1980]

24. Semantics.

For all intents and purposes, hand guns are effectively banned in New York City. If only a tiny handful of politically connected individuals could vote, you would agree that effectually democracy in that place is banned, no?

[oneshooter]

25. So you are good with "a tiny handful of politically connected individuals"

Having the right to own a handgun?

WOW you sound like a 1%r.

[VADem1980]

28. I'm not ok with anyone owning a handgun.

But hey, nice strawman.

[Straw Man]

29. But you said you want what NYC has.

That's what they have. Are you changing your mind?

[oneshooter]

33. No strawman, just your own words.

So you are agreeable to "a tiny handful of politically connected individuals" having the right to posses firearms when no others can?

Still sounds like you are a 1%.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

27. From the GC&RKBA dictionary:

An excuse given when one is shown to be incorrect.

You're new at this aren't you.

[Straw Man]

30. You're not from around here, are you.

For all intents and purposes, hand guns are effectively banned in New York City. If only a tiny handful of politically connected individuals could vote, you would agree that effectually democracy in that place is banned, no?

But you said "New York" at first, not "New York City." It's a common elitist error. Nice to see you conflating gun rights with voting rights, though. I think you might be getting the hang of this.

[VADem1980]

32. Ha, not so much.

Gun "rights" have more in common with slavery. I was just making an example.

[Straw Man]

35. And you're not very good at this, are you.

Gun "rights" have more in common with slavery. I was just making an example.

Your "example" was perfectly apt: rights reserved for the few as opposed to rights recognized for the many. Now you may go ahead and explain your slavery analogy.

[VADem1980]

36. And now we move on to ad hominem.

It seems your name is richly deserved.

[oneshooter]

37. Well you did post that you support the 1% over the 99%.

Post #24

[VADem1980]

48. Reading comprehension is not your strongpoint, eh?

[oneshooter]

49. Reading what you post must not be one of yours.

[Straw Man]

38. Nothing personal.

I refer only to the weakness of your arguments.

You are the one who conflated gun rights and slavery. Remember? And you're accusing me of ad hominem?

No, you're not very good at this. Apparently you don't even know what a "straw man fallacy" is.

[gopiscrap]

26. of course it does

[Eleanors38]

31. Guy fills in 299 crosswords. Bloomberg reaches over and scribbles in the last one. Victory!

[DonP]

34. Just like Chicago - drop in to support the Chicago Democrat candidate at the last minute - Victory!

[Pullo]

39. So Dems almost lost the Virginia governership to a flaming right Teabagger???

LOL, Bloomy must be proud.

[gejohnston]

40. especially since Terry's lead in the polls dropped

from a 15 point lead when it came out Bloomberg was pouring money into it.
Oh yeah, thank you Libertarian Party we couldn't do it without you.

[Eleanors38]

41. Bloomie is the equivalent of a graveside streaker.

[mwrguy]

42. Victory! So much for gun control being a loser at the polls.

ONWARD

[gejohnston]

43. Not exactly

As soon as Bloomberg and former Monsanto PR flack, now mouthpiece for Astroturf Moms, Shannon Watts hit the scene TMcC went from a 15 point lead across the state to winning within the margin of error with a Libertarian spoiler and a higher turnout in the DC bedroom communities. Put it another way, without the Libertarian siphoning votes from Kenny, we wouldn't be celebrating.
Another factor is the money advantage TMcC had over Kenny, something like 10-1. The RNC wants to purge the Tea Party, thus it didn't support Kenny, and Bloomberg poured money into TMcC's campaign. Given how well the Libertarian did along with TMcC, Kenny's theocratic tendencies was a bigger loser, which is a good thing.
In short, gun control won a squad level action in a battle that really is a draw, but is still losing the war.
The loser was really theocracy.

Edit to ask, isn't true that Bloomberg et al didn't enter the race until TMcC was projected to win?

[Lizzie Poppet]

44. Depends on whether he won BECAUSE of being pro-gun-control or in SPITE of it.

Personally, I strongly suspect the latter. McAuliffe's support of gun control probably made the race closer than it would have been otherwise (and tipped the election the other way if the GOP hadn't nominated such an extremist jackwagon).

[mwrguy]

45. 'in spite of' still means that it's not the third-rail that some claim

[Lizzie Poppet]

46. That's true.

Clearly that will depend on just where the election is, but there was certainly a time in VA when that position would have been political suicide.

[Jenoch]

47. It depends on what state it is where the elecctions and gun control issue is taking place.

I am sure the government employees in the northeast part of Viginia drive the vote.

[Eleanors38]

50. 'wonder if "gun control" & Bloomberg contributed to McCauliffe's huge winning margin.

[sarisataka]

51. I've read that 23 MAIG mayors

were defeated in their elections. Hard to find info on that.

[friendly_iconoclast]

55. It's true- Here's the list

Daniel Juarez – Hawthorne, CA

(He was charged with perjury in August)

Patrick J. Morris – San Bernardino, CA

Richard A. Moccia – Norwalk, CT

Gow Fields – Lakeland, FL

Earnestine D. Pittman – East Point, GA

Nancy Chaney – Moscow, ID

Joshua J. Cohen – Annapolis, MD

Thatcher W. Kezer, III – Amesbury, MA

Linda M. Balzotti – Brockton, MA

James H. Suttle – Omaha, NE

Eric A. Spear – Portsmouth, NH

Lorenzo T. Langford – Atlantic City, NJ

Robert L. Bowser – East Orange, NJ

Mary Foster – Peekskill, NY

Thomas S. Richards – Rochester, NY

Robbie Perkins – Greensboro, NC

Jackie Holcombe – Morrisville, NC

Ted Andrzejewski – Eastlake, OH

Margaret D. Stock – Butler, PA

Pete Lagiovane – Chambersburg, PA

Bonnie Heath – Pottstown, PA

Ralph Harrington – West Elizabeth, PA

Mike McGinn – Seattle, WA