Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumSome here...
...favor registration ONLY because it makes enforcing gun laws (like bans) easier.
Some here work diligently at dodging questions about bans making any difference. They TRY to imply that some members have evil and lawless intentions.
* Shouldn't we be all about ANY LAW that makes enforcing another law easier?
* I'm sure many crimes are about 1 rubber hose away from a confession and conviction.
This is a fundamental example of the foolishness embodied in the idea that "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." Let's check back on the beneficent consequences of some ideas from Senator Wilson.
My fellow DU members; grouping all pro-RKBA folks as your enemy is not a Democratic good. It serves to stifle discussion; it is an action that discourages progress.
Am I pro-RKBA? Yes.
Are my ideals congruent with those of Wayne or Ted? No Not hardly!
I suppose many pro-control folks would be more comfortable if all pro-RKBA folks were ideologically identical to John Birch, Adolf Hitler or Ted Nugent. It would make discounting any of their views or ideas much easier.
I happen to have a serious dislike for broccoli so all of my ideas are analogous to those of HW.
Have fun with that.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)It's a dangerous thing when the righteousness of one's position blinds them to the inanity of their words and behaviors.
Such behavior as using guilt by association and denying raw facts in favor of making emotional points (think about the children) are not really Democratic principles.
I K and R your OP, friend.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,482 posts)Last edited Sun Feb 23, 2014, 01:54 PM - Edit history (1)
...the odd moment when an idea, previously disparaged and branded repulsive, will inspire a new thought or be seen in a different light. Such was my experience in considering the death penalty.
I'm not reacting in this thread so much to anti-gun fervor as I am to a certain type of thinking that is shared by those who view all Muslims as terrorists, most African-Americans as criminals and many women as no better than servants. Many moderates here have good ideas and spark discussion and exchange with their posts and replies.
This shouldn't be a discussion where pro-RKBA folks toss all pro-control policies into the "evil idea bucket" and all pro-rights policies into the "good". Conversely, pro-control folks shouldn't just out of hand toss all anti-gun policies into their "good idea bucket" and all pro-gun policies into the "evil idea bucket".
We'll always hear a lot about Rosa Parks and for good reason. We don't hear many names in connection with how wrong was it to ever make a "whites only" sign acceptable. Guns aren't a clear cut issue. Discussion is vital.
and thanks.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)...that a bloc dedicated to a mission should be so willing to embrace the kind of absolutist groupthink that progressives have so traditionally been against.
And yes, indeed, it's what we find among teabaggers and the like: the broadbrushing and ignorance and unwillingness to sincerely engage in authentic dialogue!
Happy Sunday to you!
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,482 posts)Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Some here post to stir crap up then when presented with facts for a serious discussion begin with the name calling and penis jokes or just go quiet.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,482 posts)...if they participate in an honest exchange, I couldn't care about their reasons for writing as long as they read and reply with respect.
The ones who don't are much funnier than a penis joke.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)In the end, the most important question to ask about any policy is, "Will it work?" All you have to do is identify the problem and find a solution for it. Unfortunately, a solution may not be possible because, physics. Look at the examples that have been thrown around lately:
Air bags make cars safer - True. That's because the air bags deploy in the event of an accident. They don't deploy to prevent someone from getting into a car because they are statistically more likely to have a wreck that day.
Smoking is bad for you - True. We know this because, chemistry. So we tell people that smoking is bad for your health and prove it to them, (as if coughing up part of a lung every morning wasn't proof enough). Now that people know they can make an informed decision as to whether or not they should smoke. They are still free to do so as long as they don't hurt anybody else, which is to say take it outside.
One of the best ways to create bad public policy is to try to redefine the problem to fit an a priori policy. That usually happens when policy is designed to satisfy ideological desires rather than physical realities. This does two things: It doesn't address the actual problem and it creates problems where there were none before.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,482 posts)...is what I think of as one arrived at with less input from a brain and more from a gland.
But let's not forget "Should it work?"
Bazinga
(331 posts)That no problem can be solved with the same level of thinking at which one became aware of it.
Especially true if the problems are our own creation.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,482 posts)...we can't have that!
ileus
(15,396 posts)No not ever...
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,482 posts)1. to offer an apology or excuse for some fault, insult, failure, or injury: He apologized for accusing her falsely.
2. to make a formal defense in speech or writing.
In the #1 sense, it is unnecessary; in the #2 sense, it might help.
sarisataka
(18,770 posts)That i belong on FR because I view Hubert Humphrey as a liberal model.
If viewing HHH as being a poor liberal because he too was "pro-gun" I will happily stand in that company and feel humbled by the comparison.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,482 posts)"Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right of citizens to keep and bear arms."
SecularMotion
(7,981 posts)instead of coming on DU and telling us how great your guns are?
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)As we are elsewhere. They're kind of touchy.
sarisataka
(18,770 posts)you seem to be far more familiar with Free Republic than I am.
As for telling everyone how great my guns are... don't rightly remember that. Could you refresh my memory? I do recall talking about UBC, accountability, penalties for straw purchases, things like that. Oh and individual rights, maybe that is what you mean?
http://americansforresponsiblesolutions.org/about/
Your assumption since you are anti-gun is that I must be pro-gun. No.
I am anti-violence.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)I am proud to say I met him on many occassions as a child and he was on a first name basis with my father. He called my Dad 'Big Jim' and my father called him Senator and later Mr. Vice-president.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Also the Lautenberg amendment. DV/restraining order? Helps if the cops know you have them so they can come pick them up while your case wends its way through the court.
hack89
(39,171 posts)1. buy a gun
2. register it
3. have it "stolen"
4. report theft to police
Besides, if the cops find a gun at the scene of the crime, it is not hard to determine who the initial buyer was. Gun dealers are required to keep those records.
Additionally, the biggest source of illegal guns are dirty gun dealers. Those guns bypass the entire registration process all together. They get away with it because the ATF does not have enough resources to adequately monitor and police all the dealers. I would choose expanding the ATF as my first choice for combating illegal guns followed by UBCs.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)which partly why the "time to crime" averages something like ten years.
hack89
(39,171 posts)The big difference is the volume of guns per case - 350 per case for dirty FFLs.
https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Firearms/chap1.pdf
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)really easy to steal guns from, and investigates further?
NFA like registration for all guns would provide fiscal resources for more monitoring.
How many NFA weapons go 'missing' from dealers every year? I'm betting... not many.
hack89
(39,171 posts)require a firearms permit like some states do. That meets your requirement for getting guns away from domestic abusers.
With 300 million unregistered guns in America, the notion that registration will reduce crime is pretty far fetched. There will be a huge pool of weapons available for criminals.
Registration will not impact the largest source of gun deaths which is suicides.
I stand with the ACLU when it comes to registration. All the problems you cite can be resolved without eroding privacy rights.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I don't see how it helps straw purchases though, since it wouldn't help us find out who the last eligible owner was. Or how many guns that individual has 'moved' from legal to black/grey markets.
bowens43
(16,064 posts)If you carry a gun you are a potential murderer it doesnt matter what else you believe.
we dont need discussion we need a total ban.
sarisataka
(18,770 posts)Also every driver is a potential DUI, every woman a potential prostitute, every man a potential rapist let's jail everyone! Voila no more crime.
By onto I mean on...
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,482 posts)Jail: a further demonstration that "control" is a myth.
People are locked in cells, guarded and monitored 24/7. Assaults, murders, rapes, drug use and thefts never occur in prisons.
ETA: I've not heard of any DUIs in prison so there may be something to that idea.