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PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 07:40 AM Jul 2014

Ban all Guns!!

Gun owners are violent and need to be disarmed.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/09/13/2617131/largest-gun-study-guns-murder/

Largest Gun Study Ever: More Guns, More Murder

The largest study of gun violence in the United States, released Thursday afternoon, confirms a point that should be obvious: widespread American gun ownership is fueling America’s gun violence epidemic.

The study, by Professor Michael Siegel at Boston University and two coauthors, has been peer-reviewed and is forthcoming in the American Journal of Public Health. Siegel and his colleagues compiled data on firearm homicides from all 50 states from 1981-2010, the longest stretch of time ever studied in this fashion, and set about seeing whether they could find any relationship between changes in gun ownership and murder using guns over time.

Since we know that violent crime rates overall declined during that period of time, the authors used something called “fixed effect regression” to account for any national trend other than changes in gun ownership. They also employed the largest-ever number of statistical controls for other variables in this kind of gun study: “age, gender, race/ethnicity, urbanization, poverty, unemployment, income, education, income inequality, divorce rate, alcohol use, violent crime rate, nonviolent crime rate, hate crime rate, number of hunting licenses, age-adjusted nonfirearm homicide rate, incarceration rate,and suicide rate” were all accounted for.


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/gun-owners-america-director-kind-glad-lawmakers-feared-violence-members-article-1.1868425

Gun Owners of America director would be 'kind of glad' if lawmakers feared violence from his organization

WASHINGTON — This gun nut makes the NRA’s mouthpiece seem tame by comparison.

Larry Pratt, executive director of the group Gun Owners of America, was quoted Tuesday as saying he’s “kind of glad” if lawmakers fear violence from members of his organization.

The crack sparked outrage from Democrats and drew a rebuke from the husband of former Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.), whose promising political career was cut short when an assassin shot her in 2011.


http://www.futurity.org/shooting-deaths-states-gun-owners/

More shooting deaths in states with more gun owners

(snip)
Covering 30 years (1981-2010) in all 50 states, the report shows a “robust correlation” between estimated levels of gun ownership and actual gun homicides at the state level, even when controlling for factors typically associated with homicides. For each 1 percentage point increase in the prevalence of gun ownership, the state firearm homicide rate increases by 0.9 percent, the authors found.

“Understanding the relationship between the prevalence of gun ownership and therefore the availability of guns, and firearm-related mortality is critical to guiding decisions regarding recently proposed measures to address firearm violence,” the study authors say


http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/01/pro-gun-myths-fact-check

10 Pro-Gun Myths, Shot Down

Myth #2: Guns don't kill people—people kill people.
Fact-check: People with more guns tend to kill more people—with guns. The states with the highest gun ownership rates have a gun murder rate 114% higher than those with the lowest gun ownership rates. Also, gun death rates tend to be higher in states with higher rates of gun ownership. Gun death rates are generally lower in states with restrictions such as assault-weapons bans or safe-storage requirements. Update: A recent study looking at 30 years of homicide data in all 50 states found that for every one percent increase in a state's gun ownership rate, there is a nearly one percent increase in its firearm homicide rate.



70 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Ban all Guns!! (Original Post) PowerToThePeople Jul 2014 OP
No. (nt) blueridge3210 Jul 2014 #1
First, the pathological notion of a "right" in regard to guns needs to be dispensed with. Loudly Jul 2014 #2
Sure, wishing-away rights worked so well for B*sh & Cheney appal_jack Jul 2014 #13
Exactly mwrguy Jul 2014 #28
I think not Duckhunter935 Jul 2014 #3
All those "unbiased" sources too lol nt DonP Jul 2014 #4
Yup. blueridge3210 Jul 2014 #5
I know PowerToThePeople Jul 2014 #6
"Once upon a time ..." DonP Jul 2014 #10
regarding sources discntnt_irny_srcsm Jul 2014 #14
Some people just want to stay at the "Bumper Sticker" level of thinking DonP Jul 2014 #15
RE: bad guys PowerToThePeople Jul 2014 #17
Yeah, bad guys, IronGate Jul 2014 #19
So you identify these folks in the pics... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jul 2014 #22
9 good reasons why I carry and continue to refuse to be a willing victim. ileus Jul 2014 #45
yes let's laugh at people getting killed ha ha ha and any fact samsingh Jul 2014 #32
No, let's celebrate abysmal ignorance instead DonP Jul 2014 #47
how clever samsingh Jul 2014 #49
You realize your chart is skewed by suicides? hack89 Jul 2014 #7
Because that might actually address the problem. Glaug-Eldare Jul 2014 #31
yes, let's fix mental problems, so easy - last i checked the repugs have problems samsingh Jul 2014 #34
GOP intransigience, mandates, ovecoming refusals, compulsory requirements and loss of freedom Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2014 #43
It's not easy, but it doesn't appear to be anybody's priority. Glaug-Eldare Jul 2014 #48
a suicide with a gun is a gun death - by definition samsingh Jul 2014 #33
No law will stop gun suicides hack89 Jul 2014 #37
it could make it harder for people to find one during the time samsingh Jul 2014 #39
What would make it harder? A ban? nt hack89 Jul 2014 #41
fewer guns. less gun culture samsingh Jul 2014 #50
So how do we have fewer guns? hack89 Jul 2014 #55
there have been so many proposals samsingh Jul 2014 #57
I thought we were talking about gun suicides hack89 Jul 2014 #58
Wyoming has the most and not a peep about weekend murders occuring yeoman6987 Jul 2014 #8
Wyoming problem is gejohnston Jul 2014 #24
horses are beautiful majestic creatures samsingh Jul 2014 #40
i think that's new reporting issue samsingh Jul 2014 #35
How do you plan on doing that without employing lots of guns? Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2014 #9
So what are you doing every day to make that gun ban happen? Lurks Often Jul 2014 #11
This is crap and needs to be locked. IronGate Jul 2014 #12
~~~~This has got to be the most ignorant and bigoted post I've read on this site, here's why: NYC_SKP Jul 2014 #16
IMO, this OP should be blocked from this group, IronGate Jul 2014 #18
Posters like this make our case stronger. NYC_SKP Jul 2014 #20
Yeah, there is that. nt IronGate Jul 2014 #21
i don't think they make gun lovers look brilliant or articulate samsingh Jul 2014 #36
I recommend that you don't confuse Pro-2A DU members with other gun fans on the Internet. NYC_SKP Jul 2014 #38
you have a good point - my intent is not to insult gun supporters samsingh Jul 2014 #51
Heh. beevul Jul 2014 #23
"Gun owners are violent and need to be disarmed." NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #25
Oh no, this OP is serious as evidenced by his constant IronGate Jul 2014 #26
He should be banned from this group. NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #27
Already had his hand slapped by Skinner at least once so far. DonP Jul 2014 #29
Good. I saw that post and almost alerted myself. NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #52
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2014 #30
So, once again the obvious is proven krispos42 Jul 2014 #42
States with a lot of thunderstorms have a lot of lightning deaths. ... spin Jul 2014 #53
not only that but guns kill people... ileus Jul 2014 #44
It depends which hand you use sarisataka Jul 2014 #46
It just popped up...not sure from where or how. ileus Jul 2014 #56
Your pandemic of propaganda won't convince persons with integrity pablo_marmol Jul 2014 #54
The data suggests that gun violence is falling as the number of guns in circulation is growing. NYC_SKP Jul 2014 #59
This, I think, explains the daily google dump Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2014 #60
Thankfully, it's not working. But we can't let up on them, they're tenacious. NYC_SKP Jul 2014 #61
Precisely, NU. pablo_marmol Jul 2014 #65
Re: "People with more guns tend to kill more people—with guns." discntnt_irny_srcsm Jul 2014 #62
I can see it now, the next Bloomberg production: a darkened garage, a woman and child.... NYC_SKP Jul 2014 #63
you nailed it discntnt_irny_srcsm Jul 2014 #64
I find it amusing.. virginia mountainman Jul 2014 #66
it is ironic Duckhunter935 Jul 2014 #67
Methinks the OP increasingly smacks a bit of another "dear departed poster" DonP Jul 2014 #69
Keep posting this drivel. The NRA loves you for it. badtoworse Jul 2014 #68
He just doesn't get it. IronGate Jul 2014 #70
 

Loudly

(2,436 posts)
2. First, the pathological notion of a "right" in regard to guns needs to be dispensed with.
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 07:54 AM
Jul 2014

Being a popular misconception, it gets eagerly pandered to by both politicians and judges alike.

 

appal_jack

(3,813 posts)
13. Sure, wishing-away rights worked so well for B*sh & Cheney
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 11:30 AM
Jul 2014

Sure, wishing-away rights worked so well for B*sh & Cheney, why shouldn't gun-grabbers "Shares" the strategy...

-app

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
3. I think not
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 08:06 AM
Jul 2014

so you will go around and help the governments confiscation force. Lets see how that works for you.

Did a lot of work in the cut and paste

 

DonP

(6,185 posts)
10. "Once upon a time ..."
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 10:00 AM
Jul 2014

... We had some guidelines in the Gungeon.

Nobody wasted our time by posting NRA or SAF "research" and nobody wasted our time posting Brady or MAIG "research", since both were highly prejudiced sources. For the most part we even eschew studies that aren't peer reviewed like the crap Hemenway spews for dollars.

That's why you find us primarily using CDC and FBI reports and studies in our discussions. I guess some people are incapable of finding unbiased sources to base their POV on. Oh well, not much loss there.

We'll be sure to give your studies from Mother Jones et. al. all the credibility they, and you, deserve.

Now excuse us while we all follow up on the new DC Carry laws and the forthcoming Peruta decision.

Ah, yes the tide is turning!

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,479 posts)
14. regarding sources
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 12:04 PM
Jul 2014

Seeking the facts on which to base opinions and decisions is the logical and scientific method. I often approach controversial issues by reading the ill founded propaganda from both sides to find the type(s) of scientific and statistical failures that are touted. This information is useful when reading other opinions based on 'supposed' research.

Those that have deep prejudices will cling to any type faulty data just to resist change and maintain some comfortable ways to qualify who the "bad guys" are.

 

DonP

(6,185 posts)
15. Some people just want to stay at the "Bumper Sticker" level of thinking
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 12:31 PM
Jul 2014

Please don't confuse them with facts or actual data from an unbiased source.

Just leave them and their built in prejudices alone, so they can simply hate and demean something (and somebody) with a "clear conscience".

No different thinking than Climate Deniers, Fundies and racists from the '50's and '60's. People who "just know" from their "common sense" what's right for them, society and certainly for you and me too.

But on DU you're allowed to express those kind of sentiments if it's about guns and gun owners. On DU2 Skinner rode herd on it with his demand for civility, but here it's "slipped off the choke chain" it seems.

The more gun control, or should I say "gun safety", loses at the ballot box, in the legislatures and in the courts, the angrier, more desperate and spiteful they become.

Now we're hearing another round of "Blood in the Streets" about the new DC carry laws.

How many times have we heard that from the other side? 15, 20 at least, and it never, ever comes to pass, so they move the goal posts and conflate gang shootings with CCW people.

I'm past taking any of it personally most of the time and I can tune out most of it. The "You gun people want more dead babies" stuff still pisses me off, but for the most part I file them with the DU poster in GD who wanted drones to kill any gun owners that didn't turn in their guns to the government immediately after Sandy Hook.

I just sit back and focus on winning individual issues in local town halls and public forums when the opportunities arise. They sit back and post and wait for Bloomberg's next check.

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,479 posts)
22. So you identify these folks in the pics...
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 01:01 PM
Jul 2014

...as the ones you're debating and discussing these issues with?

Really?

samsingh

(17,595 posts)
32. yes let's laugh at people getting killed ha ha ha and any fact
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 07:25 PM
Jul 2014

that doesn't fit the gun lovers view is biased

but wait, let's quote the nra, repugs, and gun lovers.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
7. You realize your chart is skewed by suicides?
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 09:09 AM
Jul 2014

they make up two thirds of gun deaths and most of the states on the high end of the scale have high suicide rates.

Why not fix mental health care in America?

Glaug-Eldare

(1,089 posts)
31. Because that might actually address the problem.
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 07:20 PM
Jul 2014

It's like asking why hard-right politicians in Israel quietly supported Hamas against Fatah -- violence suits their political agenda more than peace ever will.

samsingh

(17,595 posts)
34. yes, let's fix mental problems, so easy - last i checked the repugs have problems
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 07:28 PM
Jul 2014

with Obamacare, how do you propose to mandate healthcare for the mentally ill? and those that refused? Would you force them to take drugs anyway? What about the right to freedom?

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
43. GOP intransigience, mandates, ovecoming refusals, compulsory requirements and loss of freedom
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 09:23 PM
Jul 2014

never stopped the gun grabbers? Why aren't you posing these same, supposedly principled arguments to the OP?

Glaug-Eldare

(1,089 posts)
48. It's not easy, but it doesn't appear to be anybody's priority.
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 12:38 AM
Jul 2014

Obamacare has done a lot, but the resources are still very limited. I'd suggest targeted grants to encourage more students to study psychiatry, psychology, addiction medicine, etc., exceptionally strong privacy protections for those receiving mental health care, and a PR effort to publicize mental health and addiction treatment benefits available through Medicaid and Medicare as well as insurance. At the moment, the demand for treatment is much higher than the supply. When we've made progress on that, then I'll start worrying about steering reluctant people towards help.

samsingh

(17,595 posts)
39. it could make it harder for people to find one during the time
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 07:51 PM
Jul 2014

that someone wants to kills themselves. Stabbing oneself with a knife or some other means may not be as easy as pulling a trigger.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
55. So how do we have fewer guns?
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 05:58 AM
Jul 2014

Is this just a heartfelt desire or do you actually have some ideas on how to achieve it?

samsingh

(17,595 posts)
57. there have been so many proposals
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 09:25 AM
Jul 2014

everyone gets shot down by the nra and gun supporters.

- more thorough background checks
- no stand your ground laws to support sanctioned murder
- more controls over sales
- liability for stupid storage of guns when they are used for a crime


there are so many ideas proposed - everyone, like the ones above, will be refuted that they don't work. Yet other countries don't have the same level of gun violence we do.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
58. I thought we were talking about gun suicides
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 09:29 AM
Jul 2014

which is the biggest problem because it accounts for two thirds of all gun deaths. The demographic for gun suicide (white middle aged men) makes it very unlikely that anything on your list will reduce suicide deaths.

Btw - SYG is not sanctioned murder. It has been law in many states for decades. It is not a huge problem.

 

yeoman6987

(14,449 posts)
8. Wyoming has the most and not a peep about weekend murders occuring
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 09:45 AM
Jul 2014

as compared to Illinois who has 20 percent ownership and has a weekly killing spree. There is something wrong with folks getting killed but not sure that gun ownership is really the root of the problem or Wyoming would be having huge problems.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
24. Wyoming problem is
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 02:49 PM
Jul 2014

some people who come to work in the oil field and coal mines can't handle the constant wind, high altitude, snow, vast areas of wilderness, no big cities, etc. Hence, the suicide rate.
Then there are us sagebrush hugging wild horse lovers that grew up here.

 

Lurks Often

(5,455 posts)
11. So what are you doing every day to make that gun ban happen?
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 10:17 AM
Jul 2014

I mean aside from posting misleading at best or outright lies at worst on the internet?

Will you be volunteering for the gun confiscation squads yourself?

Get back to me when you have the 2/3rds of Congress and 3/4 of the states for getting the 2nd Amendment changed or removed.

 

IronGate

(2,186 posts)
12. This is crap and needs to be locked.
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 11:11 AM
Jul 2014

Krispos42, this OP is broad brushing all gun owners as violent, of which there are many on DU who are gun owners.
My opinion? Lock it.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
16. ~~~~This has got to be the most ignorant and bigoted post I've read on this site, here's why:
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 12:32 PM
Jul 2014

.

Gun owners are violent and need to be disarmed.


Such a statement is instantly an insult and evidence not of progressive or enlightened thinking, but quite the opposite.

It is narrow-minded, broadbrushing, absurd in every way.

It is certainly NOT representative in any way of intelligent progressive thought.

I'm embarrassed for you and others who could even think such things, much less post them.

Wow.
 

IronGate

(2,186 posts)
18. IMO, this OP should be blocked from this group,
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 12:35 PM
Jul 2014

he's broad brushing all gun owners, of which there are plenty here on DU alone, and millions of Dems are gun owners.
But, that's up to Krispos42.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
20. Posters like this make our case stronger.
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 12:49 PM
Jul 2014

They expose the very ugly underbelly of their movement and make us look brilliant and articulate by contrast.

samsingh

(17,595 posts)
36. i don't think they make gun lovers look brilliant or articulate
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 07:29 PM
Jul 2014

and I see plenty of insults to the gun control movement all the time.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
38. I recommend that you don't confuse Pro-2A DU members with other gun fans on the Internet.
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 07:50 PM
Jul 2014

We are not like many of them, on DU you'll see insults come at us far more often than from us.

On other sites, not so much, poo is flung in both directions, and I avoid those sites.

Sites I don't avoid include The Liberal Gun Club: http://www.theliberalgunclub.com/

Progressive Gun Owners: http://www.progressiveguns.org/

American Gun Culture Report: http://www.americangunculturereport.com/

Liberals Gun Corner: http://www.liberalsguncorner.com/

Liberals With Guns: http://www.liberalswithguns.com/

Shoot from the Left Hip: http://shootfromthelefthip.com/

Blue Steel Democrats: http://bluesteeldemocrats.blogspot.com/

Pink Pistols: http://www.pinkpistols.org/









NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
25. "Gun owners are violent and need to be disarmed."
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 06:37 PM
Jul 2014

This is insulting and slanderous. Practically everyone in m family owns some sort of gun, and none of us has ever been violent toward anybody.

It is beyond disgusting that you refuse to recognize that people have the right to use a firearm to protect themselves in their own homes. If a bad guy breaks into my house, there is absolutely no reason I shouldn't be able to keep my family safe.

Was this OP serious, or are you going to these ridiculous extremes in an attempt at humorous satire?

 

IronGate

(2,186 posts)
26. Oh no, this OP is serious as evidenced by his constant
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 06:42 PM
Jul 2014

harping of BAN ALL GUNS meme throughout DU.

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
27. He should be banned from this group.
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 06:46 PM
Jul 2014

Obviously he is just having some fun posting flame bait. There is another group where he can fantasize about gun grabs to his heart's content.

Response to PowerToThePeople (Original post)

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
42. So, once again the obvious is proven
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 09:05 PM
Jul 2014

The more common a thing is, the more it will be used. This might explain the lack of snowmobile-related deaths in Florida.


I'd love to see a study where the gun-murder rate is compared to the gun-ownership rate. But I don't get that. I get study after study which pretty much completely ignores every single crime NOT committed with a gun.

I'd also love a study of crime rates compared to, say, high-school graduation rates, drug arrests, % of people with 2-years or more of higher education, etc.

Not this. "States with more people have more deaths!" "States with more cars have more car-related deaths!" "States with more tornadoes have more tornado-related deaths!"

spin

(17,493 posts)
53. States with a lot of thunderstorms have a lot of lightning deaths. ...
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 03:04 AM
Jul 2014

Forida does not have many snowmobile-related deaths but it does have a lot of lightning deaths.

ileus

(15,396 posts)
44. not only that but guns kill people...
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 09:24 PM
Jul 2014

On the other hand I did have a hell of a bad evening at the range. Didn't matter what I was shooting always....ALWAYS....High and to the Left.

M&P pro 9mm

Sig P220

M&P Shield 9mm


Don't know what was going on...after about 150 rounds I called it quits. Now to reload those and practice some dry fire exercises before next Tuesdays meeting.

sarisataka

(18,633 posts)
46. It depends which hand you use
Tue Jul 29, 2014, 10:37 PM
Jul 2014

If right handed you are pushing, left heeling. Both are from anticipating recoil.

Also make sure you have a clean follow through as that can magnify any error.

ileus

(15,396 posts)
56. It just popped up...not sure from where or how.
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 07:14 AM
Jul 2014

I almost always shoot a little bit left 3-5" from 10-15 yards.


I think one of my biggest lifetime problems when it comes to accuracy is the fact I'm left handed and shoot right handed. But I shoot my bow left handed...go figure.

It also appears that I can shoot my supers 10mm g20 better than any of my pistols.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
59. The data suggests that gun violence is falling as the number of guns in circulation is growing.
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 04:47 PM
Jul 2014

That's an exploding-head kind of statistic.

And that more people think that the opposite is true is not surprising.

Context

The number of firearms available for sale to or possessed by U.S. civilians (about 310 million in 2009, according to the Congressional Research Service) has grown in recent years, and the 2009 per capita rate of one person per gun had roughly doubled since 1968. It is not clear, though, how many U.S. households own guns or whether that share has changed over time.




Great post, it should be its own OP.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
60. This, I think, explains the daily google dump
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 05:08 PM
Jul 2014

It doesn't matter what the facts are, if the grabbers (does the thread title now permit us to call them "grabbers"?) can create the impression things are worse they can move the ball even as they move the goalposts.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
61. Thankfully, it's not working. But we can't let up on them, they're tenacious.
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 05:30 PM
Jul 2014

I refuse to let bad data and propaganda float around unchallenged.

There is actually quite a bit at stake.

pablo_marmol

(2,375 posts)
65. Precisely, NU.
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 02:15 AM
Jul 2014

The spammers are following the lead of the media in creating the false impression that gun violence is ever-increasing.

And based on the fact that such a large percentage of the citizenry is blind of the facts, the strategy has clearly been a winning one.
Which is why I've decided to fight fire with fire my last few (identical) posts.

I was warned by private message that this behavior could get me banned. I wonder if the person who warned me cares about the fact that certain members spam the board with news of gun violence sans comment?

discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,479 posts)
62. Re: "People with more guns tend to kill more people—with guns."
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 09:07 PM
Jul 2014

Isn't that like saying people with hammers tend to hammer more nails?

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
63. I can see it now, the next Bloomberg production: a darkened garage, a woman and child....
Wed Jul 30, 2014, 11:06 PM
Jul 2014

...they're probably white but we can't see the man, but it's a man in the shadows....

Country music plays in the background...

So predictable.

 

DonP

(6,185 posts)
69. Methinks the OP increasingly smacks a bit of another "dear departed poster"
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:03 AM
Jul 2014

Maybe it's just me?

The same Over The Top flame bait statements and posts.

The same condescension in multiple forums.

The only thing missing is the slavish devotion to licking Bloomberg;'s boots at every opportunity.

 

IronGate

(2,186 posts)
70. He just doesn't get it.
Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:12 AM
Jul 2014

His words are exactly why gun control groups are constantly thwarted in their efforts to enact new laws.
The NRA and other gun rights group should be thanking people like this OP for their help.

Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Gun Control & RKBA»Ban all Guns!!