5th Grader Found With Loaded Gun Had List Of Names. Should this kid be prosecuted?

[Starboard Tack]

A fifth-grader at Kingsley Middle School located south of Traverse City, Michigan was found with a .25-caliber pistol last Monday. The pistol was loaded and strapped to the boy’s waist. The Grand Traverse County Sheriff’s Department say that the boy had a homework assignment with a list of student’s names written on the back. Some of the names on the list were misspelled or missing last names. The list seemed to show that the student intended to harm the students whose names he had written on the assignment, because of a title that was written above the names, according to investigators. Multiple students saw the student with the gun. One of those students then notified a teacher who then reported the matter to a school liaison officer. The boy then voluntarily surrendered the gun.

According to the Traverse City Record Eagle, Under Sheriff Nate Alger said “I am anticipating we will be submitting the report to the prosecutor requesting some sort of charge, what that charge is I’m not sure of yet,” Alger said. “We are still investigating, talking to students, things of that nature, trying to figure out why he brought the firearm to school.”

The boy stole the gun from his grandfather’s house, he admitted to police during questioning. The student also gave conflicting reasons why he brought the gun to school to investigators.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/18/fifth-grader-gun-list-of-names_n_5841844.html
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/09/18/5th-grader-gun/

[The Green Manalishi]

1. Sounds like parents )and perhaps grandpa) need investigation

and counseling, at the least. While personally, I thought of myself as being an adult responsible for my actions by 12 (it took another 3 years to get the hell out of the house) , not everyone is, so society as a whole needs to see what the hell is wrong with how that kid was raised.

[Starboard Tack]

2. He is a victim of a culture that sees guns as tools to solve social problems.

I grew up thinking guns were for hunting and shooting skeet, otherwise they were for bad people intent on mischief.
The current mentality being peddled by the NRA and the gun industry is that guns will help solve problems, rather than create problems.
A kid sees his dad or granddad strap on a gun to go to the store, or church, he asks why and is told, "you never know, I might need it." Need it for what? "Maybe need to shoot a bad guy." So, the kid is being bullied at school by a bunch of "bad guys" and knows exactly how to fix the problem.

Some parents tell their kids to stand up to bullies, but kids are afraid, and then they see the way their parents deal with bullies, by strapping on their S&W.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

13. I think you're on to something

We're a society that's become accepting, expecting and, to a degree, demanding of quick, if not instant, solutions. We have fast food and 30 minute sitcoms. We day-trade, drive fast and would rather buy new shoes than leave a pair for a few days to be repaired.

Differences of opinion escalate to arguments over nothing in no time flat. Any words exchanged are often considered disrespect and disrespect just can't be tolerated. The short story is that too often arguments are settled with a gun.

Stay with me here because this is key: the gun didn't cause the argument, the gun also doesn't actually settle the argument, the gun just removes one of the parties from the picture.
This kind of quick paced thinking by the hero of our story is shown as an example in movies and television. These media have become our babysitters and youngsters companions since the '60s.

Here's where I take a step back. I think we can all agree that resorting to violence due to an argument is just wrong. (FYI, according to the FBI arguments are the most prevalent precursor to shootings, IIRC around 30-35%.) My deviation here is to assert that removing firearms from everyone won't solve the problem. In fact, it is another example of the same type of problem thinking that leads to these shootings, a demand for a fast solution. There is ample suspicion that the lack of a firearm will not preclude an alternative form of violence which, without independently solving the 'violence/demand for resolution' issues of our society, will likely grow to be just as serious.

In short the idea that removing guns from private hands is the same sort of quick answer that's being selected by the shooters that are the problem. It's just a band-aid on a bleeding artery. The quick resort to violence is the real problem. Attempting to remove the first tool selected won't change the type of thinking that leads to violence.

BTW, if the problem is bullying at school, neither a gun nor its absence will solve the problem.

[Starboard Tack]

16. I'm very much in agreement with you.

I don't think removing guns from private hands is the answer either. Changing the mindset is the answer.
The current surge in CCW only serves to reinforce the mindset that guns are useful problem solvers. Of course, they can be, in the rarest of circumstances. But the message is that carrying a gun is like wearing a seatbelt or having a fire extinguisher or an umbrella. There when you need it. I think this is a huge mistake and gives kids the wrong message.

Guns should be considered tools for problem solving as an absolute last resort. And that means not teaching your kid that it's OK to take one to school, or church, or anywhere outside the home, except to a range or hunting area.

Bullying is a big issue that needs to be addressed by parents and teachers. How many dads tell their kids to stand up and fight? Well, if dad carries a gun, the kid knows what he means.

[ladjf]

3. No. But, he must have some serious psychiatric and adult guidance. nt

[Starboard Tack]

4. How about his parents and grandfather?

Why do you think so many kids think guns might solve their problems?

[ladjf]

5. I follow your correct logic about the parents and grandparents. But,

I assume that they would be the wrong adults to guide the boy which is why I stated "adult guidance". The child himself could very easily turn into a serial killer unless he is led away from those ideations. I doubt his parents and grandparents could be of any help.
They are too old to change their ways. What we have here is a very dangerous set of family dynamics.

The boy could have been influenced by TV movies or even some of his friends. Most likely, however, is that is parents are over enamored with gun ownership.

[NYC_SKP]

6. We don't know. Everything in this thread is speculation, what grandpa does and say, etc. Meh.

We just don't know right now, and we may never learn.

Maybe the boy is a victim of bullying, maybe he has an undiagnosed emotional condition, maybe it's video games, family violence.

Or maybe not.

Even the article leaps to this idea that the list of names was of potential victims. Maybe, or maybe it was the soccer team names.

[ladjf]

7. I agree. What ever the problem about his parents and grandparents

might be. I don't think society can do anything significant to help them help the child. One thing is for sure, the child is doing some seriously dangerous activities that could well turn into actual violence.

[NYC_SKP]

9. Indeed. In addition to his home life, I wonder what's going on at school.

And what's going on in the neighborhood, beyond his home.

Not in Fifth grade, but later, I would come home to an empty house and it left open all kinds of possible problems and misbehaviors.

I'm curious why he wasn't more engaged in school activities, 5th grade can be a pretty awesome year in a good school.

[thucythucy]

8. "Even the article leaps to this idea that the list of names was of potential victims..."

The police say the "leap" to that conclusion because of what was written above the list. So it depends what that was.

If it was "Kidz I want to kill today" it probably wasn't much of a "leap."

[Starboard Tack]

11. I don't think gun ownership is the problem

I think it is far more about how kids are taught to relate to guns and how kids are taught to solve problems.
When guns are advertised as "equalizers", then the gullible will see them as tools to solve problems.
We have people who contribute to this group who see guns that way and teach their kids the same. This is a message which is embedded in so many people's psyche. It is a testosterone driven message and kids who are bullied and feel weak and defenseless, will look for easy solutions.
I remember being bullied at school and wished I had a gun to teach the SOB that was picking on me.

It is up to parents, teachers and the government to make sure kids get the message that guns are not there to solve problems, but they can create huge problems when used incorrectly.

[NYC_SKP]

10. Boy, 12, Charged With Murder, Stabbed a 9 year old: ‘No One Loves Me’

Something is wrong, and it's not guns.

This kid stabbed another, then called 911 and asked to be killed, "no one loves me, I just want to die".

http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/boy-12-charged-in-playground-stabbing-death-24863829

The family is asking for assistance in paying for the dead child's funeral.

He, Connor, is one of two victims in this tragic story.

[Starboard Tack]

12. Very sad. I agree, it's not guns.

It's people and how they resolve problems. Guns are only the tools that some use, when available. Other times it's knives, fists, rocks, whatever. Kids look to their role models for advice on problem solving. If they learn that violence is the answer, then that's probably the route they'll take.

[NYC_SKP]

15. It broke my heart to hear the story, it was listed below your huffpost linked story.

And I honestly thank you for that. Usually, I won't go to the Huffington Post links, it takes a long time to load.

This morning, however, associated stories were listed (a common practice, a Newtown reflection being the most prominently place item today) and I saw this story.

So, easily there is a gun problem, the details of which we can argue over forever, but more striking to me is the sociopathy.

Always good to find common ground.

Thanks!

[NYC_SKP]

17. More on the story, pretty sad.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2718633/Ill-love-Tragic-final-words-boy-9-brother-brutally-stabbed-death-playmate-12.html

Repeatedly stabbed by a 12-year old. But the kid doing the stabbing was witness to earlier deadly violence in 1997,

More background here:

'I'll always love you': Tragic final words of boy, 9, to his brother after being brutally stabbed to death by playmate, 12

The 9-year-old boy fatally stabbed in a Michigan playground on Monday spent his dying breaths telling his brother he loved him and re-assuring him that the shocking attack wasn’t his fault, a family member has revealed.

Michael ‘Connor’ Verkerke was playing with two of his brothers and another boy Jamarion Lawhorn, 12, who pulled out a knife and repeatedly stabbed Connor.

Authorities say Jamarion is the youngest child ever charged with murder in Kent County - and one of the youngest in the state of Michigan. An 11-year-old boy was convicted of killing his mother's boyfriend in 1997 in Pontiac, Michigan.



'Even though we’re dealing with a different type of pain, they’ll be dealing with a similar pain every day for the rest of their lives. That’s not to be taken lightly,' said Stearns.

The community has some together to help Conner's mom pay for his funeral. A Go Fund Me page set up yesterday has already raised more than $13,000 from 321 people.

The Grand Rapids Press reports that Jamarion sobbed and trembled as he appeared in court on Tuesday to face murder charges. Even the prosecutor, who has opted to try him in juvenile court as an adult, remarked that he looked 'tiny' and younger than his age.


Mr Stacy says the boy told police: 'I want to die. I don’t want to be on this earth anymore. Please pick me up.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2718633/Ill-love-Tragic-final-words-boy-9-brother-brutally-stabbed-death-playmate-12.html#ixzz3DmGZQz2X
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

ETA more on the history. As I said, this case had at least two victims. Below are two articles about the man who, as an 11-year old, killed this killer's mother.

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2014/08/12-year-old_accused_in_playgro.html

http://www.michigandaily.com/content/11-year-old-killer-walks-free-20

It's a cycle of violence. In this case knife violence, but the weapon used doesn't matter to the conditions that lead to these killings.

[ileus]

14. Always lock up your PSD.

Lucky for us the grandparents of our kids don't own firearms, and the neighbors like myself keep theirs locked up also.



As a parent of a 5th grade boy (and 12yo female) I've always stressed the value in human life, and our 2A rights. Both know better than endanger either, that violence is never the answer. Of course at the same time they know that life is worth protecting at all times, that's a given of course...

Raising kids seems to be harder than in the 70's when I was in elementary...I never thought about carrying a pistol in school.

My son and I did have a good range session last Saturday, we confirmed the calibration of the optic on his youth model 7mm08 then run several mags down the pipe of my latest SD pistol the CZ p09. What a great package for Home Defense and target plinking.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRzqDOdwOwBVaEKV0uk0_4Y3-WN4Alvzpari1RJr9zvvC55t-gcFA