HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Topics » Justice & Public Safety » Gun Control & RKBA (Group) » I don't think a rational ...

Mon Nov 3, 2014, 04:54 PM

 

I don't think a rational debate on gun control is currently possible in the United States

Not with the "gun culture" in this country and the paranoid/spiteful right-wing ideology associated with it.

You do have to wonder about people who think their freedom depends on having the ability to (potentially, possibly, theoretically-right?) shoot people, or who honestly believe that they have the right (let alone the likelihood of them being able) to violently overthrow the United States government ( )

I think a rational debate, with empirical data, is desperately needed on this issue, but we're not getting that, and we won't get it, anytime soon.


-My $0.02.

66 replies, 17907 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 66 replies Author Time Post
Reply I don't think a rational debate on gun control is currently possible in the United States (Original post)
YoungDemCA Nov 2014 OP
GGJohn Nov 2014 #1
gejohnston Nov 2014 #2
flamin lib Nov 2014 #3
gejohnston Nov 2014 #4
flamin lib Nov 2014 #5
hack89 Nov 2014 #9
friendly_iconoclast Nov 2014 #48
Duckhunter935 Nov 2014 #53
beevul Nov 2014 #34
NYC_SKP Nov 2014 #64
sarisataka Nov 2014 #6
Eleanors38 Nov 2014 #7
Nuclear Unicorn Nov 2014 #63
Ampersand Unicode Nov 2014 #8
Eleanors38 Nov 2014 #23
derby378 Nov 2014 #10
pablo_marmol Nov 2014 #17
Jenoch Nov 2014 #11
benEzra Nov 2014 #12
flamin lib Nov 2014 #13
Duckhunter935 Nov 2014 #14
flamin lib Nov 2014 #16
Straw Man Nov 2014 #20
Duckhunter935 Nov 2014 #22
Eleanors38 Nov 2014 #24
derby378 Nov 2014 #32
pablo_marmol Nov 2014 #61
Straw Man Nov 2014 #19
Eleanors38 Nov 2014 #25
flamin lib Nov 2014 #28
Eleanors38 Nov 2014 #30
flamin lib Nov 2014 #33
Jenoch Nov 2014 #40
Eleanors38 Nov 2014 #47
flamin lib Nov 2014 #49
Eleanors38 Nov 2014 #50
friendly_iconoclast Nov 2014 #52
Duckhunter935 Nov 2014 #54
Nuclear Unicorn Nov 2014 #58
pablo_marmol Nov 2014 #15
flamin lib Nov 2014 #31
Jenoch Nov 2014 #41
flamin lib Nov 2014 #42
Jenoch Nov 2014 #43
flamin lib Nov 2014 #45
Duckhunter935 Nov 2014 #55
pablo_marmol Nov 2014 #57
acalix Nov 2014 #18
Eleanors38 Nov 2014 #26
flamin lib Nov 2014 #29
acalix Nov 2014 #35
flamin lib Nov 2014 #36
acalix Nov 2014 #37
flamin lib Nov 2014 #39
acalix Nov 2014 #46
beevul Nov 2014 #44
beevul Nov 2014 #38
pablo_marmol Nov 2014 #59
NYC_SKP Nov 2014 #21
ileus Nov 2014 #27
pablo_marmol Nov 2014 #60
shenmue Nov 2014 #51
gopiscrap Nov 2014 #56
sarisataka Nov 2014 #62
pablo_marmol Nov 2014 #65
MicaelS Nov 2014 #66

Response to YoungDemCA (Original post)

Mon Nov 3, 2014, 04:58 PM

1. Are you blaming this on the "gun culture" exclusively?

Or are you assigning blame to both sides of the issue?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to YoungDemCA (Original post)

Mon Nov 3, 2014, 05:08 PM

2. rational debate is possible

as long as you keep the culture warriors out. When you weed out the bigotry and logical fallacies, your side loses.
I think a rational debate, with empirical data, is desperately needed on this issue, but we're not getting that, and we won't get it, anytime soon.
Your post certainly is not a good start.
This should be required reading on both sides
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/s/kathleen-daly-james-wright-peter-h-rossi?dref=1%2C19%2C340
https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/abstract.aspx?ID=155885
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6230a1.htm

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to gejohnston (Reply #2)

Mon Nov 3, 2014, 05:37 PM

3. As I recall you believe Moms Demand Action is a CIA psyops type organization and

know for certain that all the MDA protesters are paid to participate because you have moles in the organization. Moles that won't share the pay scale with you. You've also 7read every single critique of Kleck and debunked them although you do not know what the two recurring criticisms of the Kleck study are.

Yeah, empirical facts really make a dent in your cranium.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to flamin lib (Reply #3)

Mon Nov 3, 2014, 05:58 PM

4. No, I said it was astro turf

and the lack of IRS forms 550 prove that.
There was only one critique of Kleck's study that claimed to "debunk" it. I do know, and they are not valid.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to gejohnston (Reply #4)

Mon Nov 3, 2014, 06:12 PM

5. No, you used those words. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to flamin lib (Reply #5)

Mon Nov 3, 2014, 08:16 PM

9. Then you can provide a link. Nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hack89 (Reply #9)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 03:31 PM

48. So far, no link has been provided. Let's see what happens...

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #48)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 04:39 PM

53. Will not happen. Nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to flamin lib (Reply #3)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 10:51 AM

34. This "moms demand action"?

 

This "moms demand action"?




The OP used the words "rational debate on gun control", which begs the question:

Why are you bringing up gun grabbers in a thread about "rational debate about gun control"?


I suppose you think Shannon and the other posers are "rational"?





Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to flamin lib (Reply #3)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 07:39 PM

64. That might have been me, except that I say James OKeefe types are walking around Krogers...

 

...and doing stoopid gun stuff to make gun owners look all stoopid.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to YoungDemCA (Original post)

Mon Nov 3, 2014, 07:01 PM

6. I can agree

That the extreme side of the debate is in step with the right and tries to claim they speak for all gun owners.
Of course the tendency to assume all gun owners are in lockstep is a culture war and stifles conversation.

Would you also agree that the more extreme gun control proponents who are completely ignorant of basic technical knowledge, and instead educating themselves or consulting with knowledgeable resources, they tout their ignorance, are also a hindrance to rational debate?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to YoungDemCA (Original post)

Mon Nov 3, 2014, 07:12 PM

7. Uh, take a look at the leavings of controller/banners...

 

You've seen the hatefulness, the day in, day out insults, the never-ending claims of compassion, the enbracing -- publicly -- of a strategy of shunning, smear and moral condemnation. And it's been going on in MSM since before the innertubes existed. "Rational debate and empirical data" are what many DU controllers have SPECIFICALLY cast overboard, YoungDemCal.

You can expect a Big pushback, esp. among those on the right who are Not prone to walk over a gold-gilded political gift.

No, you shouldn't expect to "get that soon," as long as "blood on your hands," "cowards," "hidden criminals," and vast quantities of "penis" talk are the order of the day, here in DU and in the remnants of MSM. Some folks may get off to this anonymous trolling and hate speech, but remember this Hard fact: The "other side" of the 2A debate, both RW and an increasingly active pro-2A left, are in this for the long term, and are increasingly resolved to treat gun controllers & banners like Grant treated Lee until Appomattox.
If you want to change the outlook, act on that over which you have some measure of control: gun controller/banner behavior, language and values.

My $2.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #7)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 07:08 PM

63. Here's a thread tarted by 1 DU'er but after I commented our esteemed colleague Hoyt inveighed --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025724398#post32


Civility and rational discussion at its finest.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to YoungDemCA (Original post)

Mon Nov 3, 2014, 07:56 PM

8. I don't think rationality will ever be possible in the United States, period.

Not unless some brilliant mad scientist unleashes a strain of Ebola that knocks off all the wingnuts in this country.

You're absolutely right about the guns issue: we'll never be able to have a rational discussion as long as there are sick bastards like Eric Frein who are lionized as heroes by a significant and very vocal segment of the population. Let alone do anything constitutionally (i.e. repeal 2nd) to kill off the supply (and deal with the demand later).

But you also will never have a rational discussion about global warming/climate change, Ebola, gay rights, women's rights, immigration, dark money in politics, the drug war (and its disproportionate impact on minorities in terms of imprisonment), economic inequality, you name it: there's no room for rational discussion in this country as long as wingnuts are given a seat at the table, because all they do is flip the table over and start throwing chairs when they don't get their way. They don't want debate. They want a fight. You hear it all the time from these types, how "men aren't men" anymore because they don't learn to fight like the cowboys did in saloons. They idolize John Wayne and use Wild West mythology as a template for how the country should be run. They want Chuck Norris to be president so he can kick and punch and shoot his way out of a difficult situation. Hence the utter contempt for "government" or any sort of organized body of debate: they want a society where Sheriff Reagan (or someone like him) is given carte blanche to run the town his own way and throw anyone in the county jail because he said so. See also: Clive Bundy.

Face it: you're never going to get any semblance of common sense from a majority population that bases its model of government on Bonanza, and their model of "elections" on a shoot-out at the O.K. Corral (or a Burr-Hamilton "debate". They're petulant children, playground bullies playing cowboys and bandits, and running things with brawn rather than brains. The problem is that we have so many of them and, you're absolutely right, a culture that reinforces this perverse pretend play at all costs and actively seeks to disenfranchise those who would do it differently (aka better).

I'm done with 'Murica. My desire to leave the United States and set up shop in a civilized country is only going to increase after this election. I'll probably have to bide my time working at something domestically after college, but hopefully it won't be forever and I can pick up and leave before the Republicans turn me gray. Or throw me in a concentration camp for being one of the undesirables.

Ironically, I might actually fare better in Germany than, you know, a fascist dictatorship like this one.

The only thing I'll miss about the United States of Bonanza is, well, the unofficial national anthem.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ampersand Unicode (Reply #8)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 07:35 AM

23. We always called "Bonanza" "Bananas." nt

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to YoungDemCA (Original post)

Mon Nov 3, 2014, 08:19 PM

10. All I know is that if Democrats take heavy losses across the board tomorrow...

...gun control will be seen as a millstone hanging around the necks of our candidates. There was a time not so long ago when the national party eased up on gun-control rhetoric, and they started making gains.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to derby378 (Reply #10)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 12:14 AM

17. Wish that I could share your (optimistic) idea that Democrats can learn


from mistakes w/regard to the control/rights debate.

From my experience, the only Democrats who understand the political price we pay for our positions on gun violence are pro-RKBA Dems. I'm afraid that the rest are too blinded by ideology to even consider the possibility that we're out to lunch on this issue.

One of those occasions when I would like very much for you to be right.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to YoungDemCA (Original post)

Mon Nov 3, 2014, 08:31 PM

11. The extremests on the side of

 

radical gun laws, such as outright gun bans, unly know how to use emition in the debate instead of rational thought and logic.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to YoungDemCA (Original post)

Mon Nov 3, 2014, 09:17 PM

12. If by "rational debate" you mean "civil and thoughtful discussion of the issue" then yes,

it is possible, and I have seen quite a lot of it over the years right here on this site. Heck, there are a number of such discussions going on right now in this very subforum, if you ignore the few posters who namecall and look at the more thoughtful posters from both sides of the issue.

If you don't like guns, you are certainly free not to own them. I choose otherwise, but I respect your choices whatever they may be. I believe there is a great deal of common ground to be found here or there with regard to mental health issues and ameliorating criminal violence, though most of that is already reflected in the status quo nationwide.

Do not, however, mistake disagreement for irrationality. It is possible to rationally disagree with "ban as many guns as possible from as many people as possible", or with magazine bans, or with criminalizing sharing a gun with your significant other, or with the fearmongering about guns in the corporate media. Not all disagreement stems from ignorance.




Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to YoungDemCA (Original post)

Mon Nov 3, 2014, 11:14 PM

13. You are right, Youngdem. Just look at the responses to your OP.

These people are in desperate need of a plexiostomy (placing a window in the abdomen so they can see where they are going because their head is so far up the ass). You make a simple observation about right wing paranoia and are greeted with various levels of hostility ranging from outright anger to passive aggressive dismissal.

No, there can be no rational discussion because gunlove is not a right but a religion resistant to reason, logic and empirical data. It is based on faith alone, it cannot be defended nor defeated by reason. I know, I've tried right here in this group. Remaining placid and calm in spite of the insults and name calling until I just decided to fuck it all and respond in kind.

In truth I feel sorry for the agoraphobic people who can't leave the house without a gun. Those who, like the Cialis daily guy just want to be ready when the moment is right and also like the Cialis guy fantasizes about that moment. I also pity the open carry people who feel compelled to wear their penis surrogate on the outside of their clothes.

There are many legitimate sports enthusiasts who are not among the lunatic fringe. The hunters, competitive marksmen, historians and various levels of collectors but you won't find them here or in any other gun forum. Those people are mostly quiet about their hobby which is not all consuming in their life and don't need the echo chamber of positive reinforcement for their fetish.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to flamin lib (Reply #13)

Mon Nov 3, 2014, 11:37 PM

14. and you make the point perfectly

 

on what many have said here about the pro-control side not being able to have a civil dialog at all.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #14)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 12:09 AM

16. No my little dingleberry. I point out how those who try are treated here. I only give as good as I

get.

Reasonable people who have guns as part of their life are unnoticed. They go about their business being who they are and doing whatever they do without regard for that small part of life that is a hobby. It isn't a part of their life that is so overwhelming that they even notice it. Fetishists gather together for reinforcement of that which is very important to them, to their very identity. They crave and need the encouragement that they are the regular, the ordinary and anyone who isn't in the club is an opponent to the righteous way of life.

I tried to be that voice of discussion, the one that might open eyes to other viewpoints, offering a quiet polite count point to the rhetoric of gun nuttery. It didn't work, so I'm treating you guys just like you treated me. Calling names (confiscator, gun grabber, controller, and any number of other insults designed to denigrate my comments) insulting my intelligence and integrity and generally being assholes.

So, no Ducky, I'm not the one who can't be talked to. I'm the mirror you need to look into.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to flamin lib (Reply #16)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 02:06 AM

20. The voice of rational discourse.

No my little dingleberry.

I'm positively gagging on the irony.

Calling names (confiscator, gun grabber, controller, and any number of other insults designed to denigrate my comments)

Good lord, people called you those things? Shock! Horror! No wonder you feel justified in responding with "lunatic fringe," "dingleberry," "Cialis daily guy," "penis substitute," and "asshole." I mean, fair's fair, right?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to flamin lib (Reply #16)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 07:06 AM

22. at least I do not have to lower myself to name calling

 

I have not done that unlike you and I have some firearms and try to be civil in my discussion. I have been called a future murderer, blood on my hands, child killer amongst many other things not to mention the numerous penis references and jokes. Sorry if I do not meet your requirement to just be quiet and basically shut up and stop posting.

I say it again your latest post is a perfect example why some on the pro-controller side will never be able to have a civil dialog on firearms.

And I ask you one more time, stop calling me Ducky as you are just doing it to talk down on a fellow DU member and not show any type of respect at all.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to flamin lib (Reply #16)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 07:40 AM

24. "Dingleberry?" Sounds like Christmas cheer!

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to flamin lib (Reply #16)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 10:10 AM

32. I'm sorry, but you brought this on yourself...

...and it could have been a lot, lot worse.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to flamin lib (Reply #16)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 06:45 PM

61. Ah...the *Mommy Mommy he did it first "argument".*


The irony is just too delicious. (And yes, my little dingleberry - the word 'irony' applies here.)

As of course you're unaware, the NRA has actually published the hateful cartoons of The Controllers in their own publications. In doing so, they pay a small royalty to the author which is repaid over a hundred-fold when gun owners are reminded of Controller hate and contempt for them. It's exactly the loathing of the antis which is ensuring their failure - and you don't seem to have a clue!

So not only are you being defeated by your hate - you whine when liberal gun rights activists call your behavior by it's real name.

Here's an "arsenal" for you:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1262421

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to flamin lib (Reply #13)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 02:04 AM

19. My, my.

These people are in desperate need of a plexiostomy (placing a window in the abdomen so they can see where they are going because their head is so far up the ass).

That's some rational debate right there. Yup, mighty rational. You do yeoman service for your cause, you do.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to flamin lib (Reply #13)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 07:54 AM

25. Complaining of "controller/banner" descriptors in

 

the face of the catalog of perjoratives routinely thrown at gun-owners is to whine about the humidity in a hurricane.

Gosh, don't you see the huge difference? Is the scale too vast to comprehend? Are irony AND the theater really dead?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #25)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 09:53 AM

28. Its not a chicken or egg situation. The hostility to even the most modest suggestions

and to those who propose them has always been palpable. GUN GRABBERS! PROHIBITIONISTS! CONFISCATORS! Are there worse names, more pejorative words in the nutter's vocabulary? And you wonder why they respond with gun hugger, gun humper and fetishist?

The OP addresses crazy militia types and those who fantasize about killing, like Zimmerman, and everybody here internalizes those items as if they are yours personally. Can anyone in the gungeon speak out in agreement on those two issues? It appears not. Nutter's would rather associate with anti government anarchists and psychopaths than refute a fellow gun nutter regardless of how extreme.

When I realized that I just said to myself, fuck it. If they want to be a bunch of dicks I can reply in kind.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to flamin lib (Reply #28)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 10:02 AM

30. You are STILL wading through your own irony.

 

I use terms like "controller," "banner," "prohibitionist" as measured and accurate descriptions of folks' positions.

But there is NO justification for the smears used DAILY in controller/prohibitionist posts, and NO equivalency in their intent as personal and cultural attack. You really need to step back and re-evaluate.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #30)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 10:15 AM

33. I don't think that word means what you think it does. And yes, replying in

kind is just human nature. Kick a dog long enough and he'll bite. You used those terms replying to me and I am none of those things. Its just shorthand for "I don't like what you say so I'll attack you personally. Then you get your tender feelings hurt when someone reply in kind.

There can be no rational debate. Gun nuts won't allow it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to flamin lib (Reply #33)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 12:29 PM

40. On DU, the 'gun nuts' are the posters whp use logic in their discussion.

 

The anti-RKBA crowd are the people who are using insults and emotion to make their case.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to flamin lib (Reply #33)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 03:29 PM

47. I'm not really hurt (a big-time goal on the 'tubes, I guess).

 



I am merely showing where most of the responsibility lies with the lack of reasonable debate. You should read Kates & Kleck's "The Great American Gun Debate." In it you will find a good survey of the history of "debate" that includes lots of hateful caricature and downright potty talk spewed forth by major editors, politicians, academicians, cartoonists, and other "opinion makets" in an era well before the internet. The culture war parameters were well established early on.

The battle has been joined, and not to the controllers' favor.

You seem to think there is an ideal of intellectual style and moderation within the controller community which you can refer to, even as you continue to pour hot tar from the parapets. That is not the case.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Eleanors38 (Reply #47)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 03:45 PM

49. Are you seriously trying to tell me the gunlove bunch

is blameless? There are people here that refer to MDA as "bought and paid for" as if they are prostitutes because surely nobody could possibly not love guns! Nobody could have a difference of opinion in good conscience! Noooooo every single person opposed to guns in bars, church, surgical suites, childcare and in every single home and and hand is evil and disingenuous.

I'm bored with this moronic exchange and the mental masturbation from your side. I'm out ta' here. Declare victory and revel in the brilliance of your debating skill.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to flamin lib (Reply #49)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 03:51 PM

50. Try to have a good day.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to flamin lib (Reply #49)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 04:11 PM

52. I see you object to eating a dish your side *also* serves...

 

...so kindly spare us the 'outrage'.

Let's change a few words in your post and see how they read:

"There are people here that refer to NRA as "bought and paid for" as if they are prostitutes because surely nobody could possibly love guns!"

I'll leave it to the disinterested reader to read what's been posted at the links at the following:

https://www.google.com/search?q=nra+shills&sitesearch=democraticunderground.com

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #52)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 04:41 PM

54. I do find it amazing

 

They just do not see what nasty stuffis put out on DU about firearms owners. Get all worked up about "controller"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to flamin lib (Reply #13)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 06:03 PM

58. You insult people and then use their taking offense at being insulted as justification for insulting

them.

So much for rational.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to YoungDemCA (Original post)

Mon Nov 3, 2014, 11:39 PM

15. Not with the "control culture" in this country and the willful ignorance associated with it.


How can you have a serious discussion with a controller, when the vast majority don't have the foggiest notion about firearm design, ballistics, current gun laws etc.

How do you deal with a person who endorses bans on "assault weapons" while being unable to define what these weapons are and how they function?! Not just ignorance - but willful ignorance. And not just willful ignorance, but prideful willful ignorance!

It's well past time that Democrats own up to their share of responsibility for the inability of parties to dialog in good faith on the subject of gun violence.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to pablo_marmol (Reply #15)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 10:07 AM

31. In my case you called me names, insulted my intelligence and integrity.

I hold a C&R FFL, own more guns than I have fingers, know local and national laws and probably more about firearm development and its effect on warfare than most.

All that I've been met with derision, name calling and insults.

That is how gun nutters respond to everyone who isn't another rabid gun but.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to flamin lib (Reply #31)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 12:31 PM

41. Your description of yourself makes you a 'gun nut' to most DUers.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Jenoch (Reply #41)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 01:08 PM

42. No, it doesn't. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to flamin lib (Reply #42)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 01:22 PM

43. Of course you are.

 

You have an arsenal. Nobody needs that many gunz.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Jenoch (Reply #43)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 02:23 PM

45. No, I'm not a gun nut and very few on DU, if any, think so. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to flamin lib (Reply #45)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 04:53 PM

55. The controller side does

 

They wold also call you a future killer just waiting for your time to act.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to flamin lib (Reply #31)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 06:02 PM

57. So provide a link. I don't go after people who don't deserve it.

Edited to add: I've never had one post hidden.......so it couldn't have been too over-the-top.

But nice try sneaking one by!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to YoungDemCA (Original post)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 12:26 AM

18. I cannot bring myself to support gun control anymore.

It always becomes a slippery slope in the end. More and more gun laws get passed until you have the draconian mess that is the UK or Australian laws.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to acalix (Reply #18)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 07:56 AM

26. Liberals are at their best when being liberal.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to acalix (Reply #18)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 09:59 AM

29. The slippery slope fallacy is what the NRA used to defeat a bill outlawing the sale of dog and cat

meat in Pennsylvania. If selling pet meat were outlawed, they argued, it is a slippery slope to outlaw canned pigeon "hunts" and eventually all hunting.

Yeah, that slippery slope sure is Germain. Hell if they make you license your car its a slippery slope to confiscating it . . .

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to flamin lib (Reply #29)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 10:53 AM

35. I've seen it all to well

And sadly I cannot share your optimism. More and more of these laws will pass and there won't be an end in sight. Every year in California they pass more gun laws.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to acalix (Reply #35)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 10:56 AM

36. Are there any regulations that gain support here? Any at all?

Can you give an example of slippery slope?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to flamin lib (Reply #36)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 11:40 AM

37. Comparing licensing cars might seem valid superficially

But the problem is that only a very tiny minority dislike cars and want to see them banned. In countries like the UK the vast populace hate guns and actively support more stringent gun laws every year. Simply put there isn't a stigma attached to owning a car.

Just recently gun owners over there are now subject to warantless random checks.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to acalix (Reply #37)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 12:17 PM

39. So you're saying that a small minority should outweigh the vast majority?

When things reach this point I just give up the effort. There can be no rational discussion of gun violence in the US.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to flamin lib (Reply #39)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 03:28 PM

46. A lot of anti's want to make guns out to be the next tobacco.

Demonize the the product and everyone who uses it, attach a stigma to using it. Continuously pass more and more laws under the guise for "public health".

Luckily I was able to see the truth.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to acalix (Reply #37)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 01:59 PM

44. Thats not the only problem.

 

Folks like that poster are either under the illusion that one needs a license to OWN a car, or know that generally no such requirement exists to own a car and are deliberately conflating a "license to use in public" with a license to own.


Considering how many times its been posted...

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22license+to+own%22&sitesearch=democraticunderground.com&gws_rd=ssl

I don't buy the illusion possibility.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to flamin lib (Reply #36)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 12:01 PM

38. The answer is simple.

 

"Can you give an example of slippery slope?"

Answer 1 simple question and we'll have the answer to yours:

At what "levels", in your view, will there be enough gun control, and by what metric will you express it?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to flamin lib (Reply #29)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 06:09 PM

59. If you had *any* ability to confront your biases you'd see that there is some merit

to the slippery slope argument.

But since you don't - and likely never will - you won't.

http://www.saf.org/journal/13/AbsolutistPoliticsinaModeratePackage.pdf

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to YoungDemCA (Original post)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 02:24 AM

21. A great body of empirical data exists now, it's not even about Constitutional interpretation.

 

Without going into too much detail, evidence is adequate to prove the usefulness of personal firearms in preventing crime, protecting oneself and in being able to assist authorities in some circumstances.

Further, there are several historic precedents for governments that overstep and citizens that are able to make corrections, often without any violence.

Thus, I think your premise and your terms don't really invite an even handed dialogue.

"right to violently overthrow the United States government", for example, is a non starter.

Should such a time come that a government is so corrupt that some form of revolution is inevitable, one can expect a large portion of government troops to defect to the side of the revolutionaries.

When that time comes for other countries but no relief is found, it tends to be where personal firearm ownership has previously been banned outright.

See North Korea.

We don't want that, we don't want a police state or a military state where only the police and military have guns, yet we seem to be headed there.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to YoungDemCA (Original post)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 09:26 AM

27. As long as the regressives remain fixated on an object there's nothing to debate.

While I take into consideration the safety of my family, they insist on saying stupid shit like "only designed to kill" and "killer clips" "mean pistol grips" and such sillyness.

They instead tell me I should call 911 to bring their guns to protect my family. They insist I'm being rude to society if I want to engage in my right to conceal carry that somehow life is less valuable outside the home.

No thanks...I'll continue my rude ways.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ileus (Reply #27)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 06:12 PM

60. Very well said, sir. *WELL* said. NT

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to YoungDemCA (Original post)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 04:03 PM

51. Me too

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to YoungDemCA (Original post)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 05:16 PM

56. I tend to agree---fucking gun nuts!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to gopiscrap (Reply #56)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 07:07 PM

62. Define gun nut

does the number of firearms a person owns help determine who is a gun nut? Type of guns? What they do with them?

I have eight long arms, not one is a semi-auto, does that make me a gun nut?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to YoungDemCA (Original post)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 07:40 PM

65. Here's what the "rational dialog" is earning pro-restriction supporters:

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to YoungDemCA (Original post)

Tue Nov 4, 2014, 11:18 PM

66. Gun ownership is my choice.

I am a single man who lives alone. I don't have any children. I don't drink or use drugs. I am not a criminal, nor do I associate with criminals.

I choose to own guns. I will not be shamed, shunned, embarrassed or guilt-tripped into not owning them. No amount of appeals to empathy will sway me. The day I no longer own guns it will be my choice, and mine alone.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread