Memorial threads for gun victims.

[stone space]

This discussion thread was locked by krispos42 (a host of the Gun Control & RKBA group).

What is the policy here for memorial threads for gun victims?

I started a memorial thread in honor of John Lennon yesterday, on the anniversary of his assassination, but the thread was ruled off-topic and locked.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172156873

Five days from now, on December 14, I expect to start another memorial thread for some more gun victims, this time in Connecticut.

Will that memorial thread be snuffed out, also?

[hack89]

1. Take them over to Castle Bansalot.

they might appreciated it more.

[stone space]

2. Why do memorial threads need to be snuffed out? (nt)

[hack89]

3. They belong in GD.

because they are not gun threads.

[stone space]

4. We're talking about gun victims here.

If we ignore gun victims in discussions on guns, how can we claim to be either liberal or progressive?

[kioa]

5. Because they aren't 'gun victims' anymore than Robin Williams was a 'rope victim'

Or Anna Nichole Simpson was a 'knife victim'

Or a person that dies from a fall is a 'gravity victim'

[Fred Sanders]

7. Of course not, because guns were designed to kill, these other things were not, duh.

Gun lovers shooting projectiles of logical mush....typical and well know one here.

[hack89]

9. So it is not the actual death toll but the designed purpose that determines what should be banned?

we have to ban AR-15s but not the thousands of things that kill more people every year? Is that the gist of your argument?

Because if saving the most lives possible was your goal in life, gun control would be low on the list - not even in the top 10.

[Fred Sanders]

11. It is not an argument silly, it is an observation, like observing the earth is flat...no argument.

And another logical fail...straw man..soon to be followe by an ad hominem.

Look it up. You type are not worthy of debating.

[kioa]

24. In that case "Assault Weapons" must be defective seeing as how 6 times as many people are killed by

knives than by all rifles combined per year.

Its almost as if you are just reaching to justify illogical inconsistencies as a result of your personal ignorant fear of inanimate objects.
Educate yourself.
Stop being afraid.
Life in the USA isn't scary, I promise.

[Fred Sanders]

33. 6 times more killed? So.....about 200,000....LOL x infinity. Rifles? LOL. Trying to exclude all

other firearms to set up a deflection...truly LOL worthy stuff...not debating you, just thanking you for a good morning chuckle.

[kioa]

54. "Assault weapons" are rifles. All rifles are used in less than 1/6th the murders that knives are.

Are "Assault Weapons" defective?

If you want to blame inanimate objects, then you should apply consistency.

Otherwise you expose yourself as irrationally afraid because of abject ignorance.

.....and that would be terribly embarrassing.

[upaloopa]

104. Why have a gun if you don't live in fear?

Pot calling kettle black. But then gunner talking points lose their effectiveness after a couple hundred uses. They have a shelf life.

[kioa]

105. Why support gun control if you don't live in fear?

I know many people who own guns, none of them own them out of fear. Wherever did you get such a ridiculous notion?

Get out more.
Stop being ignorant.
Educate yourself.

[upaloopa]

106. Bull fucking shit. You can't even go out of your

fucking house without the power to kill somebody you think will threaten you. And you are fucking scared shitless someone will confiscate your gun!

[kioa]

107. I don't carry.

But I also don't fear other's rights to the Second Amendment, legal forms of self-defense or any of the other rights they currently have.

The rights of your fellow citizens frighten you, so you seek to curtail their rights.
It is an irrational fear caused by your ignorance. An ignorance that Bloomberg exploits.

Get out more.
Life in the USA isn't scary, I promise.

[upaloopa]

108. You are right people are afraid of our gun culture.

Any stupid fuck can buy a gun and carry it around and possibly kill some innocent victim.
Today the gun culture is powerful. It won't always be that way. I don't know how long it will take. Maybe not in my life time but the right wing in this country will fall and with it goes the foundation that supports the gun culture in this country.

[kioa]

109. Thus you support gun control out of irrational fear.

Glad we can establish that.

However, in a free society you have to come to grips with the fact that your irrational fears do not supplant the rights of innocent people.

After all "Any stupid fuck can possibly kill some innocent victim.".

Your bizarre fear of our free society isn't my problem.
It isn't a justification to take any rights from any innocent American.

I suggest you get out more & learn that life in the USA isn't scary.
Whether or not you decide to take my advise is your business. You will be better off if you start minding it.

[upaloopa]

111. Not irrational

[kioa]

112. You are convinced that the USA is so scary that

some nameless "stupid fuck" will jump out of the bushes & get you if you don't take rights away from innocent people...
Both your fear & your desired 'solution' are highly irrational.

You can get beyond this bizarre paranoia of life in the USA.

Take a deep breath.
Nobody is out to 'get you'.
The USA isn't scary.
Get out more.
Learn something.
Stop being afraid.

[upaloopa]

113. Do you think that stuff up yourself?

It is so full of shit I would be ashamed to take ownership of it.

[kioa]

115. No. I quoted you.

But you're right about one thing; Namely that you are too ashamed to take ownership of your shit.

How marvelous.

[ileus]

30. Guns are designed to save lives.

If used to simply kill they've been misused.

[hack89]

6. I missed the policy part of your OP where you discussed how to fix the problem

if you want to talk gun control, talk gun control. Lame emotional manipulation is not really needed or appreciated in this forum - which is why I suggested Bansalot.

[stone space]

8. Will my December 14th memorial thread be snuffed out, also? (nt)

[hack89]

10. Post it in GD and see what happens. It deserves a wider audience. nt

[stone space]

14. I'll post one here.

It's about guns.

[hack89]

15. Just read and understand the forum SOP

you don't expect special posting privileges here, do you?

[stone space]

18. SOP

Gun Control & RKBA (Group): About This Group

Statement of Purpose

Discuss gun politics, gun control laws, the Second Amendment, the use of firearms for self-defense, and the use of firearms to commit crime and violence.

[hack89]

22. So make sure you add some actual discussion to your post and there will be no problem

it is the bull shit passive aggressive emotional manipulation we don't like. We are more than willing to discuss Sandy Hook and its impact on gun laws. Just be honest about it and start a real conversation.

[ileus]

32. Not about guns, but mental health and security failures.

Cemeteries are more secure than schools, and some want it that way....Wonder why?

[stone space]

35. This thread isn't about guns?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172156873

It starts with a song titled "Happiness is a warm gun".

[GGJohn]

12. This thread violates the SOP for this group,

don't be surprised if it gets locked and the one you are planning to post on 12/14.

[stone space]

16. Why is there so much fear of gun victims?

Many of them are dead or wounded.

So why the fear?

[GGJohn]

19. Why are you always claiming there's fear?

Plain and simple, this violates the SOP for this group, read the SOP and you'll understand why.

[stone space]

20. When memorial threads for gun victims get snuffed out, ...

...that's fear.

[GGJohn]

26. No, that's just your opinion,

the reason is, again, it violates the SOP for this group.
Stop with the fear crap and just follow the SOP.

[kioa]

29. That explains why there isn't more posts about 'rope violence'.

Rope Victims like Robin Williams....

Fear, amirite?

[stone space]

39. This is a gun group, not a rope group. (nt)

[kioa]

51. And this is a troll thread.

It's quite alright.
I recognize that you are unable to apply consistency to your viewpoint.
....the American people realized it as well, thus the election results.
....And after that electoral debacle, so does the Democratic Party.

Get used to irrelevancy.

[hack89]

25. Not fear but annoyance with bullshit passive aggressive emotional manipulation

why not start an actual discussion?

[stone space]

27. I started an actual discussion here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172156873

But that discussion was snuffed out due to fear.

[hack89]

34. I must have missed the discussion part of it. Looks like a music video to me and nothing else

perhaps you could actually try putting your thoughts in the OP instead of just stirring up shit?

[stone space]

38. The video expressed my thoughts. I agree with John Lennon.

[hack89]

43. That happiness can be found through shooting guns?

I guess I can see that - they have given me and my family years of fun.

[GGJohn]

36. No, it was locked due to the fact that it didn't conform to the SOP.

Quit with the fear crap.

[stone space]

41. The John Lennon thread followed the SOP. Yet, it was snuffed out.

That's fear in action.

[GGJohn]

45. No it didn't,

you posted a video without any hint of an actual discussion and it was rightly locked, that's not fear, that's a violation of the group's SOP.

[stone space]

48. That's fear. Gunners are afraid of gun victims.

Even gun victims who are dead or wounded.

[GGJohn]

50. No it isn't,

but you believe what you want to believe, you're just another anti in a long list of anti's who have no clue on this issue.

[stone space]

52. Memorial threads wouldn't get snuffed out otherwise. (nt)

[kioa]

56. It's not a memorial thread.

It's a troll thread.

[stone space]

63. John Lennon is a troll?

It's not a memorial thread.

It's a troll thread.

[kioa]

66. John Lennon didn't write the thread.

An entire movement reduced to the occasional Internet troll.

How marvelous.

[stone space]

68. I wrote the thread.

And I'm certainly not a troll.

[kioa]

72. Let us look at the common definition of the word:

troll
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll

In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29

If you need anymore help with English-to-English definitions, you just let me know.

[stone space]

74. How is a John Lennon memorial thread disruptive?

That doesn't even make any sense.

[kioa]

77. Arguments supporting gun control is what doesn't make sense.

A fact you have conceded by writing nothing but troll threads.

Which is a fact that greatly pleases me.

[stone space]

78. That explains why they get snuffed out, I suppose.

Arguments supporting gun control is what doesn't make sense.

[kioa]

80. When? Your troll thread had no argument for gun control.

It was just a desperate cry for attention from a thoroughly defeated authoritarian.

A cry for attention I am willing to answer in the hope that your authoritarian, desperate & defeated mewing can continue.

It is among my favorite tunes & you play it masterfully.
Play on, good sir! Play on!

[GGJohn]

67. Very cute, but you know damn well what he's referring to.

You're not fooling anyone here.

[stone space]

69. He called the John Lennon memorial thread a troll thread. (nt)

[GGJohn]

71. Which it was, and was rightly locked, and I'm calling this a troll thread.

I'm not calling you a troll, I'm calling this thread a troll thread.

[ileus]

13. We'd have to discuss how the system failed the victims.

1. If discussing a mass shooting : Were they in a easy victim zone, defenseless or left without security?

2. If we're talking an individual, what laws were stopping them from protecting themselves.

3. What steps could be taken to prevent being a victim?



Here at this forum we welcome discussion.

[stone space]

17. How can that be discussed if...

...the threads are snuffed out?

[GGJohn]

21. Because this thread, like your one that was locked,

doesn't discuss any of that, abide by the SOP and your threads won't get locked.

[stone space]

23. SOP

Gun Control & RKBA (Group): About This Group

Statement of Purpose

Discuss gun politics, gun control laws, the Second Amendment, the use of firearms for self-defense, and the use of firearms to commit crime and violence.

[GGJohn]

28. And that's not what this thread is about.

You think we haven't seen this before? You think we're a bunch of rubes that you can get one over on?
This thread, once again, doesn't follow the SOP of this group, it doesn't discuss the use of firearms for self defense or the use of firearms to commit crime and violence.

[stone space]

31. The John Lennon memorial thread that got snuffed out did.

it doesn't discuss the use of firearms for self defense or the use of firearms to commit crime and violence.

[oneshooter]

37. I don't see where you started any discussion.

You just posted a video without comment.

[stone space]

40. The video is a comment. I agree with John Lennon.

And folks were making other comments before the thread was snuffed out.

[oneshooter]

44. You keep using the term "snuffed out", it was locked.

And you posted no comments on it to discuss,

[stone space]

46. "Happiness is a warm gun" isn't a comment? (nt)

[GGJohn]

42. Where in that thread did you actually start a discussion?

All I saw was a video, no discussion.

[stone space]

53. In the OP. "Happiness is a warm gun".

That's called starting a discussion.

[GGJohn]

55. No, it's not, it's a lame ass video with no comment by you,

and all you're doing here is trolling, very badly by the way.

[stone space]

59. Disagreement with you is not trolling. (nt)

[GGJohn]

60. Not saying it is, this thread is an attempt to troll,

and very badly at that.

[kioa]

89. What did you disagree with him on?

[sarisataka]

47. Do you also plan

to pist threads recalling those who protected themselves with firearms? Are those who live as worthy of recognition as those who die?

It would seem appropriate to analyze positive outcomes to reinforce what works as it is to recall failures are see what can be improved.

[stone space]

49. Does it matter?

Do I have to make your argument for you to be allowed to start threads here?

[sarisataka]

57. I am wondering if victims matter

or do you only gun victims matter?

Let's consider the thirty thousand deaths related to guns per year we will count suicides in the total. (although is Robin Williams any less dead than Freddie Prinze Jr)

There are estimates of up to 3 million defensive uses of guns but doesn't matter if that number is 1 million half a million or 30,001; is it acceptable to increase the number of victims of violent crime in order to reduce the number of victims by one cause?

My answer to that question is no it is not acceptable. As best as I can tell however, the majority of gun control proponents do not care if it is 30,001or three million any price is worth reducing the number of gun related deaths.

[stone space]

58. You are free to start threads reflecting your viewpoints.

Those who disagree with you are not.

[sarisataka]

61. By my rough count

there are 68 threads on the fisrt page. 37 are "pro", 29 "anti", 2 are "neutral"

Of those 68, two have been locked, one self deleted. The second lock was also PPR'd.

To the dispassionate observer, it would appear disagreement is welcome, if posted with comments.

[stone space]

62. "Happiness is a warm gun" is a strong and powerful comment.

Strong and powerful enough to attract the attention of the censors, it seems.

It expresses an opinion that must be snuffed out at all costs.

[sarisataka]

64. Allow me to restate...

'if posted with their own comment'

This group has seen posters come and go who drop cut and paste articles without comment simply to stir trouble. They would (not very) coyly say they were attempting to start a discussion, though they never actually discussed the topic of the OP or amy reply.

One of the unwritten rules is if you post, say something in your own words. It may only be one sentence but it would show your interest in conversation and not look like a driveby troll.

I'm not the host so I cannot say such a thread would not be locked but past experience shows this group is very open to contentious dissent.

[stone space]

65. I thought the SOP was written down.

One of the unwritten rules

So when people accuse the John Lennon memorial thread of violating the SOP, they are talking about the unwritten portion of the SOP?

[sarisataka]

75. Not in the mood

for word games, maybe later.

I will just point out the only comment to your companion thread in GCRA was from the one person blocked from here. The comment was simply a cross group snipe, nothing about John Lennon or (heaven forfend) gun control.
By comparison forty are blocked there, thirty or more for quite innocent comments. My own bannable sin was to ask about the SOP- just like you are doing.

[stone space]

76. In other words, the John Lennon memorial thread...

...didn't violate the SOP.

Except for the secret unwritten portion.

[sarisataka]

84. I do not speak for the group host

and was not talking about SOP but common courtesy.

You really never did answer my question do victims matter or only gun victims? Are you willing to tell the rape victim who was number thirty thousand and one that it's worth it because there was a big reduction in gun deaths this year?

[beevul]

81. You broke the irony meter.

Complaining in the only open gun forum on DU, about censorship.


Beyond that, yes, you are trolling, and we all know it.

[stone space]

82. Why does a memorial thread for John Lennon need to be snuffed out? (nt)

[beevul]

83. Try reading the SOP...

Try reading the SOP, ALL of the SOP, and not just the parts you think apply. Members of the group created it, approved it, and interpreted its meaning, well before you came along. You don't just get to walk in here and decide for yourself what it means or how selectively its applied.

You lot pulled that in bansalot.

You'll not do it here.

[stone space]

85. Reading the SOP doesn't help.

I've been told that it is in the unwritten portion of the SOP.

It's hard to read the unwritten portion of the SOP because it isn't written down anywhere.

[beevul]

93. Oh bullshit.

Our SOP says:

Discuss gun politics, gun control laws, the Second Amendment, the use of firearms for self-defense, and the use of firearms to commit crime and violence.


You weren't making any honest attempt to discuss anything.

You're pulling the same typical bullshit "guilt them with a body" tactics that your predecessors have seemed to favor, and pretending it counts as discussion.

It doesn't.

Oh look:

#1: ALWAYS FOCUS ON EMOTIONAL AND VALUE-DRIVEN
ARGUMENTS ABOUT GUN VIOLENCE...

As another poster said:

"Kinda sucks when the other guys have also read your playbook, doesn't it?"

[stone space]

94. "Happiness is a warm gun"

Our SOP says:

Discuss gun politics, gun control laws, the Second Amendment, the use of firearms for self-defense, and the use of firearms to commit crime and violence.

[beevul]

101. You have part of it.

Discuss gun politics, gun control laws, the Second Amendment, the use of firearms for self-defense, and the use of firearms to commit crime and violence.

I note you bolded part of the above in an effort to help me see what part you were referring to, so I returned the favor, and underlined the part you seem to be having so much trouble with. Now all you have to do, is engage in discussion , to complete the circuit.

That you haven't, either means you don't realize that its a required element of adherence to our sop (and a dog regularly ate your homework too I'll bet ) or you know full well that you aren't meeting the SOP and you're just here trying to stir up shit.

Either way, you aren't breaking any new ground.

[Straw Man]

116. Post some discussion with your next drive-by.

Then it would fit the SOP:

Discuss gun politics, gun control laws, the Second Amendment, the use of firearms for self-defense, and the use of firearms to commit crime and violence.

Otherwise it's just cheap emotion-driven propaganda.

Oh, and quit whining. It's unseemly.

[sarisataka]

99. Do not put words in my mouth

at NO point did I claim the SOP has unwritten rules.

I was speaking of etiquette. The posts I referred to were never locked, though consensus was such postings are rude.

[samsingh]

70. k&R

[kioa]

73. 72 replies. Successful troll is successful....at trolling.

But far less successful at making logical, consistent arguments or helping Democrats win elections.....

A trade I thoroughly approve of.

[stone space]

79. A memorial thread for John Lennon is not trolling.

or helping Democrats win elections.....

Nor does it hurt Democrats.

[Fred Sanders]

86. Memorial threads that mention anything critical of their precious firearms is "trolling" to them.

[kioa]

87. Where does this OP say anything about Lennon? Where did his John Lennon OP say anything about

gun control?

The only thing you are a 'victim' of is the weakness of your authoritarian arguments.
Arguments so weak, you don't even bother trying to present them anymore.

Now you & your friend are reduced to nothing but troll threads....and that suits me fine.

Whenever you feel like 'having the discussion' again, feel free to do so.
Just don't count on the party to pay you any heed. After the last electoral debacle, I'm confident the Democratic Party has heard quite enough out of you.

[stone space]

90. "Happiness is a warm gun"

A strong and powerful statement on gun control.

Too strong and powerful a statement for this group, it seems.

Where did his John Lennon OP say anything about gun control?

[kioa]

92. This isn't a music video group.

If you have a 'strong and simple' argument for gun control, lets hear it.

It's really too bad you didn't have a 'strong and simple argument' before the elections.

Perhaps you should base your next argument on a octopus's garden or a yellow submarine.
Why not?
It couldn't get any worse.

[stone space]

97. Maybe it's the movies, maybe it's the books...

This isn't a music video group.

[kioa]

100. Maybe you can support a repeal of freedom of religion & use a youtube video of "Imagine".

Maybe you can solve depression by posting a video of "Shinny Happy People".

Perhaps provide an argument for a flat tax by proving that being rich is hard by showing a youtube video of "Mo' Money Mo Problems"

Help the medical field by solving the problem of mortality by playing a video of "Fame".

The possibilities are endless!

Of course, if you want to ever describe what gun control does electorally, you will have to go with Beck's "Loser" video.

Hence the glorious depths of ridiculousness you have been relegated to.

[kioa]

88. Glad to see you admit that your Lennon thread had nothing to do with gun control.

Hence, off-subject.

But please continue.
Seeing authoritarian gun controllers have to avoid discussions about gun control is simply delicious!
Another serving, please!

[stone space]

91. "Happiness is a warm gun"

A strong and powerful statement on guns.

Too strong and powerful for this group, it seems.

[kioa]

95. It's too bad you couldn't use your "music video based rights" prior to the elections.

I'm certain it would have really resonated.

Perhaps you can follow up this ingenious argument with "Octopus's Garden".
You'll be really convincing then!

Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to solve homelessness with a youtube video of "Yellow Submarine"
We can all live in one of those!

[GGJohn]

96. Constantly repeating a lie doesn't magically turn it into the truth.

[stone space]

98. It's a statement so strong and powerful...

...that you still seek to have it censored even decades after his assassination.

[GGJohn]

102. Uhhh no, and it's been explained numerous times to you,

so I have to believe at this point that you're just trolling to troll.

[stone space]

110. It has been explained to you numerous times...

Last edited Tue Dec 9, 2014, 05:42 PM - Edit history (1)

...that "happiness is a warm gun" is a strong and powerful statement on guns that inspires fear in the hearts of gun nuts, so I have to believe that you are just trolling to troll.

[Straw Man]

117. Do tell.

It has been explained to you numerous times...

...that "happiness is a warm gun" is a strong and powerful on guns that inspires fear in the hearts of gun nuts, so I have to believe that you are just trolling to troll.

A strong and powerful what on guns? Message? In my estimation, it's rather vague and more along the lines of "art for art's sake." Perhaps you'd like to explain how you feel it is so relevant to the issue of guns in American society.

Many different interpretations of the song have been offered. Some writers have suggested that, in addition to the Peanuts reference, the "warm gun" could refer to Lennon's sexual desire for Yoko Ono and to his well-documented problems with heroin at the time of the recording of the White Album, where the gun represents a hypodermic syringe, although Lennon claimed to have snorted heroin rather than injected it. In his 1980 Playboy interview Lennon admitted to the double meaning of guns and sexuality but denied that the song had anything to do with drugs: "that was the beginning of my relationship with Yoko and I was very sexually oriented then". American and British censors were unhappy with the song, and it was banned by the BBC.

--http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happiness_Is_a_Warm_Gun

It doesn't inspire fear in my heart. I guess I must not be a "gun nut." Not like those delicate flowers over at the BBC.

[stone space]

118. Edited.

A strong and powerful what on guns?

[Straw Man]

119. My criticism stands.

Care to address it?

[kioa]

103. Real shame it wasn't discovered prior to the elections.

Now if you will excuse me, imma going to overturn Freedom of Religion with a video of "Imagine".

Eliminate divorce with a video of "I saw her standing there"

Solve world hunger with "Octopus's Garden".

And spread Christianity with "Christmas Time"

Music videos.
Powerful bro.

[ManiacJoe]

114. Yes, "memorial" threads for victims will be locked.

The SOP:

Discuss gun politics, gun control laws, the Second Amendment, the use of firearms for self-defense, and the use of firearms to commit crime and violence.

If you want to start a thread that discusses the actual crime that created the victim, then you are within the SOP. There are other, more appropriate places for "memorial" threads.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

120. It sounds like you have a problem with people owning guns

Perhaps you could put your objection(s) and reason(s) into words.

[krispos42]

121. Memorial threads aren't part of the SoP of the Group.

Aside from the fact that John Lennon was killed 34 years ago (as opposed to a more recent event), there are other places to do this. DU has several Groups and Forums where memorial threads for people can be held. The specific proper location depends on the life of the person being memorialized, of course. But a memorial thread to John Lennon would have been quite appropriate in The Lounge and/or Music Appreciation.

If one was to put the murder of John Lennon in the context of gun control, then the murder and its circumstances could be discusses. Given the long time frame and the massive regulatory changes since 1980, I don't see how his death could serve as an example of need for any particular form of gun-control, but I leave it to the membership to exercise its collective imagination.



Regarding the Newtown shootings, I suspect there will be several memorial threads in GD and Politics 2014 for you to join.



Memorial threads are, by definition, the celebration and commemoration of a person's life and accomplishments. The SoP of this Group (as well as nearly all other DU Groups) are sufficiently narrow to exclude memorial threads.

-Krispos42, Group Host