Woman shot, killed at Walmart in Idaho by two-year-old son

[Eugene]

Source: Reuters

Woman shot, killed at Walmart in Idaho by two-year-old son

Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:24pm EST

(Reuters) - A woman was accidentally shot and killed at a Walmart store in northern Idaho on Tuesday when her 2-year-old son pulled a loaded handgun from her purse that then went off, a county sheriff said.

The 29-year-old woman was shopping at a Walmart in Hayden, Idaho, with the toddler seated in her shopping cart when the incident occurred, Kootenai County Sheriff Ben Wolfinger said in a written statement.

Sheriff's officials said investigators were still processing the scene of the shooting, which took place shortly after 10 a.m. in the store's electronics department.

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Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/30/us-usa-idaho-gun-idUSKBN0K81I820141230

[Fred Sanders]

1. With what other inanimate object thst is also a killing machine can a two year old kill an adult with?

Home many more thousands of senseless tragedies, one could post one every day, until
America comes to its senses and enacts the sensible gun control the rest of the civilized world has?

[randys1]

2. I hear a hammer claw would work...claw hammer? Not sure what they are called

Americans have an immature and unhealthy fascination with guns....

it is time for the American people to grow the fuck up

[NYC_SKP]

3. Seven. (nt)

[beevul]

64. Isn't it wonderful when a post gets hidden for describing what others said...

Isn't it wonderful when a post gets hidden for describing what others said, while the "others" in question get to keep on saying the things that the post in question was hidden for describing?


Bad hide.

[ileus]

8. SD guns were designed to be life saving devices.

From a design and legal standpoint I don't think manufactures could get away with designing a product that kills on purpose.


These firearms are marketed as self defense firearms designed to protect/save human life. Unfortunately that's not always the case...there's no excuse for not training and learning about carrying a SD firearm.

Safety first, getting a hole poked in you by your 2yo never.

[Starboard Tack]

12. Yup, that 2 year old should've stayed awake during those safety classes

Not gonna be much family fun in his house from now on. Probably a lifetime of therapy, instead.
These guns may be marketed to save human lives, but that doesn't appear to be working very well. Maybe if they were marketed as what they truly are, extremely dangerous weapons designed to take human life as efficiently as possible, then moms might not be carrying them in their purses for junior to grab onto.

[ileus]

13. As I always say...safety first, dying second.

[Starboard Tack]

20. Safest place for a gun is locked up at home.

Never within reach of a child under seven.

[Fred Sanders]

30. Even safer is when melted down to make toys that do not kill their parents.

[Starboard Tack]

35. I couldn't agree more.

I'm sure America will eventually get the message, or else devolve into anarchy. I wish you luck.

[kioa]

14. The CDC report commitioned by Pres Obama stated that

guns are used often & effectively for self-defense.
It also stated that accidents with guns are rare & declining.

An anecdote doesn't change the facts.
That is why areas with more guns per capita (and thus less ignorance of guns) are the same places that has less support for gun control.

In any case if guns scare you, there is a simple solution: Don't own one.

[Starboard Tack]

21. Guns don't scare me.

Idiots that carry them around with little kids in tow, or carry loaded guns in public for self defense are a whole other kettle of fish.

[kioa]

23. Like the police?

[Starboard Tack]

25. Especially the police!

[kioa]

33. That may be difficult to institute in practice.

But until the police can't carry, I think others should be able to as well.

[Starboard Tack]

34. I agree. We figured out that solution long ago in the UK

Nobody should be carrying guns around in public without a helluva good reason.

[kioa]

38. The UK also 'figured out' how to use heredity to decide their Head of State

I thoroughly prefer the far greater freedoms afforded in the US to the primitive submissiveness of the UK.

[Starboard Tack]

47. I can only assume from your comment that you don't get around much.

If you think freedom is about flooding the streets with guns and 30,000 dead per year, then I wish you good luck.
Your understanding of a Constitutional Monarchy is somewhat lacking. Believe it or not, our monarchs require approval from the people.

[kioa]

49. Oh? So when did "the people" vote for your Head of State?

The USA has more freedom than the UK.
As a subject, you may find our greater freedoms frightening, but I can assure you, it's not scary.

Get out more. Educate yourself.

[Starboard Tack]

53. Freedom is a concept and entirely subjective.

In a constitutional monarchy, the head of state is not elected by popular vote, but is approved or disapproved of by the people. This has been the case since Magna Carta and if you were to study British history, you would find many examples. We tried the non monarchy thing with Oliver Cromwell and his Puritans. Guess where they ended up.
If you don't think monarchies apply to the US, then why create elite political bloodlines? Adams, Roosevelt, Kennedy, Clinton, Bush are but a handful that come to mind.
Ironically, I find far more Americans hold a fascination with royalty than Europeans.

The European monarchies represent stability, in that they, together with parliament, have the power to reboot wayward governments that get out of hand.
This system works very efficiently, and is not as cumbersome as the impeachment process in the US.
I am not knocking the US or its Constitution. Both systems are good and both are flawed.

[kioa]

54. "Freedom" isn't subjective.

"free·dom
ˈfrēdəm/
noun
the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint."

The US affords its citizens with more freedom, defended by far more robust protections of rights.
That isn't a subjective declaration. That is the difference between the US & the UK.

[Starboard Tack]

55. Go live there for a few years and then get back to me

Freedom to you may mean being able to carry a loaded gun around in public. Freedom to me means healthcare without invoices. Freedom to me means having a police force that is not a paramilitary organization. Freedom to me means not living in a country where the death penalty still exists. Freedom to me means being able to go to the supermarket without worrying that some nutjob is carrying a gun in her purse. Freedom to me is not living in such a state of fear that millions of citizens carry guns in public on a daily basis.

[kioa]

60. "Freedom" to me means EXACTLY ITS DEFINITION.

"free·dom
ˈfrēdəm/
noun
the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint."

Without any doubt the US has more individual freedoms than the UK. The language doesn't change because of your feelings.

Although there may be policies I would like to see changed in the US, giving up on our far greater personal freedoms is most certainly not one of them.

You may find our far greater freedoms frightening, but for those of us raised as free citizens as opposed to subjects, its not.
I'm certain that Her Majesty is well pleased by your willing submissiveness, but that attitude just won't do for the land of the free and the home of the brave.

[Starboard Tack]

63. Seems like you have very little knowledge about the UK

Without any doubt the US has more individual freedoms than the UK.

Maybe you'd care to share with us which freedoms you are talking about.

Most of the freedoms that America enjoys come from English law, both common and statute.
Do you honestly think that freedom of speech is unique to the US? What did they teach you "FREE CITIZENS" at school? Was it mandatory for you to pledge allegiance to a fucking flag? And a nation under God? "Home of the brave, land of the free!" Tell that to people of color.
Here is a good link. Inform yourself.
http://billofrightsinstitute.org/resources/educator-resources/americapedia/americapedia-documents/english-bill-of-rights/

People and cops don't currently carry guns in the UK, because they don't want to. It has nothing to do with the queen.

[kioa]

69. There is no doubt that the USA has more freedoms than the UK.

The USA has the Right to keep & bear arms, the freedom to choose their own Head of State.
As for freedom of speech, get back to me when British subjects can manage to not be arrested for Facebook statuses. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/uk-man-jailed-over-facebook-status-raises-questions-over-free-speech/

"Tell that to people of color"
You mean like the democratically-elected American Head of State?

[Kevin from WI]

61. I'd love to take you up on your offer

I'd like to live in the UK for a couple of years. Sounds like a nice place.

[Starboard Tack]

65. Then you should go Kevin

It's a pretty nice place. You won't find too many bible thumpers and I doubt you'll ever see a gun.

[beevul]

58. "Flooding the streets with guns".

Most of the 30 thousand dead, have nothing to do with "guns flooding the streets".

In fact, "guns flooding the streets" doesn't actually happen, unless you consider "the street" peoples homes and gun safes.


Do you?

A lot of the stauncher anti-gun folks do.

[gejohnston]

39. please explain to me

why UK is more violent now than then, or at least the use of guns.
Back when UK's gun laws were "laxer" than much of the US, kindergarten teachers didn't get machine gunned on London streets. The real reason gun laws were passed in the UK had more to do with the 1920s version of OWS than "public safety". Certainly you can't blame that on lax gun laws or the SYG Parliament passed in the 1960s. Not that it really matters, since any means of self defense where there is a disparity of force is impossible.
The fact that the police are not to protect you, and several SCOTUS decisions dating back to Warren v DC show that is good enough reason. It seems ironic that the birthplace of the Enlightenment also rejected many if not most of its concepts and prefer a society under surveillance, police are not limited by Parliament (and had armored vehicles and "militarized police" decades before the US, absurd libel laws limit free speech. Anarchy means rules without rulers, which sounds much better, and more liberal, than Air Strip One.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia

Short answer, the UK solved nothing. You can't solve a problem you didn't have.

[ncjustice80]

70. Especially the police n/t

[Starboard Tack]

36. Do you find that surprising?

In a society where hundreds of millions of guns are in private hands, does it not make sense that, occasionally, there might actually be a positive outcome to a gun incident?
It would be incredible if that didn't happen, just as it would be incredible if thousands of children didn't get shot every year, many by accident and many of those shootings fatal.

These are the two extreme outcomes of shootings.

First, the "righteous" shooting, where the good guy kills the bad guy. Only problem there is, that I doubt anyone is 100% good or bad, right or wrong. Put guns in the mix and individuals are often pressured to decide, in an instant, whether to shoot and probably kill another person. May save a life by taking a life, ending in handcuffs or applause. Either way, there is no net gain for anyone, and a net loss for society as its fabric crumbles.

Then we have the "tragic" shootings. Murders, suicides and accidents.
Again, you seem to be impressed that the numbers are going down and that, somehow, the lowering of those numbers is directly related to there being more guns on the street. This is an absurd proposition, IMO. There is no evidence to support it. Hopefully, education has helped reduce the numbers, though the reduction is slight and the numbers are still outrageously high. It is pointless to compare accidental gun deaths with other accidental deaths. Some will say more kids die in swimming pool drownings. So what? Swimming pools are dangerous and kids require supervision, but pools are not designed to kill people anymore than popcorn is not designed to choke a kid, but may. Guns are actually designed, especially handguns, to kill humans. For that reason alone, they need extra special care, especially when near children or anyone.

Too many gun owners are too cavalier and sloppy and these tragedies occur. And too many may only constitute a fraction of one per cent of gun owners, but it is still too many. My message to gun owners is, if you want to keep your rights, then police your own. That begins by not blindly defending so-called "righteous shootings".

[kioa]

37. Then there is the most common outcome...

Where the would be victim shows the perpetrator that they can defend themselves.

I think it is prefectly reasonable to compare causes of accidental death. Particularly when someone tries to argue on infringing on the rights of innocent people because of the extraordinarily low number of accidents from guns.

Guns aren't scary.
That's why the places with more guns per capita are the same places most opposed to gun control.

Thank you for your message. Now allow me to give my own:
If you want the Democratic Party to be a national party, don't try to use it as a vehicle for authoritarians to try to take away the rights of innocent people.
Fortunately after the debacle of 2014, I am certain the party will 'police their own' & keep those authoritarians where they belong; ignored & irrelevant.

[Starboard Tack]

48. I said nothing about taking away any rights.

I'm talking about a society that needs to grow up and keep its most dangerous toys off the streets. This can be achieved by public education and example. Authoritarianism should not be necessary.

[Fred Sanders]

40. The fact that 300,000,000 guns in civilian hands is bound to lead to untold tragedy is math

and logic and common sense that vaporizes on sighting a gun. There is, for some folk there is, an understandable fascination and attraction in the massive power of these killing machines. It is an addiction, it will take time and patience to get them off their junk.

Thank you for your patient efforts.

[friendly_iconoclast]

56. Some of your own "patient efforts" to that end include touting non-existent gun deaths:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172157979#post11

Then again, the ends justify any means to some...

[Fred Sanders]

17. Guns should come with a hazardous goods warning label and "Danger While Owning" label as well.

[kioa]

15. You mean like the stringent gun control in Mexico? In Russia?

In any of the other 100 nations with both a higher murder rate & lower guns per capita?

[Starboard Tack]

66. Come to Mexico and get clued in.

99% of the guns are in the hands of criminal gangs, which are financed and motivated by the US war on drugs. You might consider doing more research before commenting on what happens in other countries.

[kioa]

67. You mean criminals create black markets in order to get around prohibitions?

Gosh, I sure do wish that had been my point.

Way to think that one through, big-guy.

[Straw Man]

68. Clued in?

Come to Mexico and get clued in.

99% of the guns are in the hands of criminal gangs, which are financed and motivated by the US war on drugs.

Oddly reminiscent of the gun-rights mantra "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."

Do I get to scream "NRA talking points!" now?

[quadrature]

5. what model gun was used?

please be as specific as you can.

I suspect, it was either a pocket-cheapie,
or a Glock clone.
does anyone know?

[ileus]

7. knowing gun dealers, I suspect a glock

they love selling new gunowners on the "Only trust your life to Glock, your safety is between your ears" BS, and goofy noobies walk out thinking a little trigger safety is an actually safety.


Of course it could have been any slab sided striker fired semi auto.


One of the reasons I like either carrying one with either a manual safety or long DA pull. Especially for pocket carry...

[ileus]

6. Always a proper holster, you can't protect your family

without assuring your PSD doesn't fall into the wrong hands.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172157978




While self defense firearms are designed to save/protect life, they can become dangerous if they fall into the wrong hands.

Stay safe...

[ileus]

9. Just reported she was research scientist...and had a CC handbag.

She had just got the bag for Christmas (NBC today show.)

Sounds like she didn't have the bag on her person or the zipper locked.


From a personal safety standpoint you'd never want that firearm out of your reach, It does no good if you can't bring it into action at a moments notice, and for sure would never leave it near an untrained child.

[benEzra]

10. If you CCW, always keep the gun on your person.

Preferably in an on-body holster, but if you carry in an accessory of some sort (e.g. a holster purse), keep it on your person/under your direct control, rather than in the control of a 2-year-old.

[Fred Sanders]

11. Folks are so forgetful when they get busy, having guns around turns forget into dead.

This lawful carry concealed gun owner paid for her desire to defend Walmart and her child against possible terrorists and criminals and of course the pending End of Days, NRA-Obama-hating style of end, with her life.

Multiple by the thousands per year, multiple by years and years.....

The need for gun control could not be more obvious than knowing a two year old can kill with a gun.

[benEzra]

16. Thousands of CHL holders die every year from gun accidents? I think not.

"This lawful carry concealed gun owner paid for her desire to defend Walmart and her child against possible terrorists and criminals and of course the pending End of Days, NRA-Obama-hating style of end, with her life.

Multiple by the thousands per year, multiple by years and years....."

I dare say the number is two or three orders of magnitude less than the number of defensive uses, most of the latter without firing a shot. But you know that, I'm sure.



The above includes hunting accidents, accidents by criminals (overrepresented, for many reasons), accidents by law enforcement, accidents by non-CHL-holding lawful owners, and accidents by CHL holders.

Rate comparison:



I carry in a holster, FWIW, as most do (Galco and Bianchi are my preference). Good practice, IMO.

[Fred Sanders]

18. Only a firearm can cause an accidental death by a toddler, preventable deaths by the thousands.

[DonP]

19. That makes no sense at all.

If you actually had accidental deaths "by the thousands" you might be able to prevent them.

But you don't, so you can't prevent something that isn't happening.

Kindly take your foolishness elsewhere

[Fred Sanders]

22. What? The NRA argument of "you die anyway, what does it matter if it is a gun" is a fool's mantra.

[DonP]

24. Ah, obvious reading comprehension issues

Seeing the NRA Boogeyman under every bush and in every post that disagrees with you.

That explains a lot.

No wonder your calls for more gun control are ineffective and laughable.

But do let us know when there are "thousands of accidental deaths" from the 100 million US gun owners that you can save us from.

Keep up the good work and make sure to remind Skinner that he needs to close this forum immediately, like you whine about in your other posts.

[Duckhunter935]

27. Interesting he will come over here

Last edited Thu Jan 1, 2015, 10:50 AM - Edit history (1)

and is welcomed for discussion but has to go run back and hide in the safe haven to deride DU firearms owners where he knows they have been blocked. He wants to ban all gun forums except their own echo chamber and is scared to talk like that here.

[DonP]

31. I wonder who he used to be?

Sock puppet or Zombie?

[Duckhunter935]

32. not sure

but would not be very surprised. Has happened in the past and they have been caught. Just shows how much integrity some have.

[Fred Sanders]

41. You have been blocked? Hmmmm....did not know that...why are so many of you safe haven lovers

made unable to post in the forums the vast majority have no problem with?

Was it voluntary so you could have your own little self congratulatory common sense free zones?

[Duckhunter935]

43. Why yes I have been blocked

for this post
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1262&pid=1458

because I agreed with this entirely true statement

Despite all of this to many here I am a dirty, scum sucking future murderer with dreams of shooting small children and cats.

I find this disappointing to say the least, and somewhat discouraging.

Notice how it did not say all are name any individual DU members.

No warning or request for clarification but since that are SO afraid of dialog in that "safe Haven' that some require.

I think I was able to post like 3 times before being blocked. All you have to do is look at the number of blocks in the two gun related groups to actually see how is scared

Gun Control & RKBA
Blocked members
1 Hoyt
2 notrightatall

Gun Control Reform Activism
Blocked members
1 hack89
2 Eleanors38
3 Crepuscular
4 Bay Boy
5 ManiacJoe
6 bossy22
7 Straw Man
8 oneshooter
9 Duckhunter935
10 friendly_iconoclast
11 rrneck
12 customerserviceguy
13 ProgressiveProfessor
14 sarisataka
15 appal_jack
16 Travis_0004
17 geckosfeet
18 Hangingon
19 NYC_SKP
20 Jenoch
21 spin
22 shedevil69taz
23 SoutherDem
24 Lurks Often
25 ileus
26 Recursion
27 SQUEE
28 MO_Moderate
29 S_B_Jackson
30 HALO141
31 Jgarrick
32 Valakut
33 arst1
34 Nuclear Unicorn
35 TupperHappy
36 pipoman
37 yeoman6987
38 Laelth
39 IronGate
40 VScott

Now since that groups hosts have all disappeared and some people have been able to post opposing opinions and not be blocked, they are scrambling for replacement hosts. That is their right and it looks like the new host will continue blocking any views or opinions they do not like. He is even proud to call it "bansalot"

I am so glad we do not do that over here and even you with your opinions I disagree with are allowed to post and I am proud of that fact. By the way we are not safe haven lovers, we like discussion and are not afraid of opposing viewpoints.

[oneshooter]

50. And i was blocked for voicing that opinion, "broad brush insult". n/t

[friendly_iconoclast]

59. Being blocked by a claque of wannabe Dantons and Robespierres is hardly shameful

I know the GCRA regulars fancy themselves as guardians of
progressivism and the Democratic Party, but in truth they're rather more like:

[beevul]

26. Clearly not.

https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&biw=1066&bih=824&q=%22toddler+runs+over%22&oq=%22toddler+runs+over%22&gs_l=serp.3..0i22i30l2.4358.5285.0.5607.2.2.0.0.0.0.411.516.0j1j4-1.2.0.chm_lang...0...1.1.60.serp..0.2.515.ltVoH169k5Q

[Duckhunter935]

28. Those deaths do not matter

Do you not know that, so sad that peoples hatred of firearms and firearms owners blind them to facts.

[KT2000]

29. Looks like guns were central

to their family life. Her husband gave her a purse for Christmas that had a special outer pocket for a gun. Too bad they didn't have a more creative hobby for their family.
Guns ownership is growing into an identity movement.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2892697/Mother-shot-dead-2-year-old-son-freak-Walmart-accident-carrying-gun-specially-adapted-purse-bought-husband-Christmas-gift-better-conceal-weapon.html

[Fred Sanders]

42. Making firearms central to your life also makes them central to your tragically premature death.

[Duckhunter935]

44. so nice you are allowed to post your views here is it not?

You should really thank our group and the wonderful hosts that allow it, don't you think?

[Fred Sanders]

45. Hey, don't blame me for your bannings for gun loving comments, I was not even here.

[Duckhunter935]

46. and what comments would those be?

Do tell

[Duckhunter935]

52. so what comments, please specify

or apologize. You know it looks really weak to make a charge and then run away.

That does seem to happen a lot on the controller side though. Truly sad.

[friendly_iconoclast]

57. "I was not even here." True, "Fred Sanders" wasn't. As for the real person behind the name?

Let's just say that zombies are not unknown to DU, and leave it at that...