Concealed Carry’s Body Count (VPC padding the numbers again)

[hack89]

So the VPC released a report on concealed carry which is mentioned in this NY Times OpEd.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/11/opinion/concealed-carrys-body-count.html?emc=edit_th_20150211&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=31465010&_r=2

They make a big deal of the fact that there were 722 non-defense deaths since 2007 attributed to people with concealed carry licenses. When you actually read the report, turns out that 455 of those deaths (63%) were suicides. Are we to believe that if they didn't have a concealed carry license they would still be alive?

[NYC_SKP]

1. I believe that Professor Bogus writes for the VPC. So, this is just consistent with that.

If they had to be honest they would have no arguments to make.

[krispos42]

6. Heh, I used to work with a woman with that as a last name

[mikeysnot]

2. So they didn't kill themselves with a gun?

Is that what you are saying?

[hack89]

3. There is a question in the last line of my OP

perhaps you should go back and read it.

[mikeysnot]

4. Are you going to answer my question? I did read your comment...

btw....

[hack89]

5. Yes they were killed by guns

the point being, of course, that a concealed carry license was irrelevant to their deaths.

[mikeysnot]

7. I'm convinced..

that you have convinced yourself that you are convincing others of your twisted logic. Breaking gun related deaths down into smaller categories by details does not diminish the reality of guns cost to society in comparison to their non-existent imaged benefits.

You said they were "padding the numbers", no they were absolutely not padding the numbers.

CCL kills themselves with their gun..... equals gun death by CCL even if it was accidental it is a GUN DEATH.

So Yes, guns kill!

Yes they were killed by guns

You are learning to accept reality....Baby steps....

Now what was that conversation and point I made about mental illness and gun nuts a while back.....

[hack89]

8. But the deaths were not due to them having a CC permit, now was it?

the point of the report was to attack CC not guns in general. So doesn't it make sense that the VPC should prove that each death was uniquely linked to the CC permit and that if the CC permit did not exist the gun death would not have happened?

I have never argued that guns don't kill. I just want a honest argument from controllers.

[beevul]

9. Attributing those deaths to CCW, as the VPC and your interlocutor did...

Attributing over half of the noted deaths which were in fact suicides to CCW, as the VPC and your interlocutor did, and attempting to give the impression that the blame can be laid on CCW...

That's padding the stats any way you cut it. The title of the article was "concealed carrys body count", which is no accident.


Of those remaining when the 455 suicides are subtracted, I wonder how many weren't actually carrying concealed at the time.

We're talking about the VPC after all, and nothing they say, is trustworthy.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

11. If Josh Sugarmann told me...

...I had 10 fingers, I might still need to count them.

[mikeysnot]

33. It is real simple.

They have a ccl, they killed themselves with their gun = gun death with a ccl.

Sorry the made up figures of DGU 1.5- 3 million a year don't exist.

When you get back fro Gun Fetish Fantasy Island, let me know.

[hack89]

37. So no CCL means they would have lived?

got it.

[mikeysnot]

40. Death by gun = gun death

No matter the reason.... see?

[hack89]

44. Except the VPC "study" is specifically about concealed carry

and specfically links gun deaths with concealed carry. Did you read the op?

[mikeysnot]

85. Yes, I did

and he stated and failed that they were padding the numbers, did you read the OP?

[hack89]

89. So how does concealed carry contribute to suicides?

because the study implies that without concealed carry those people would be alive.

Simple question. Can you answer it?

[mikeysnot]

97. simple question.

63% of the deaths are from suicide. People that sought out these licenses suffer from mental disorders and are able to get their license.

Maybe the license procedure is a joke? Most definitely inadequate at the least.

[hack89]

107. So they would own guns without a concealed carry license

like the vast majority of gun owners. How would that reduce suicides?

[mikeysnot]

41. You need to read more.

Start here... and not just Guns and Ammo.

http://www.survivorsofsuicide.com/faq_suicide.shtml

[hack89]

45. And the link between suicide and concealed carry is what exactly?

because this thread about concealed carry.

[DonP]

46. Well .... but ... GUNZ!!!

That's all that matters to the folks that don't bother reading anything they don't like the sound of.

I'm sure someone will come up with a link between Concealed Carry and suicides ... any minute now .... still waiting ... not holding my breath.

[mikeysnot]

86. For someone who claims they didn't read the post, your post prove you did not

projection again...

maybe you want your hat back.

[DonP]

102. And still nothing relevant to say after 2 weeks Mr. Snot?

That reeks of desperation and irrelevance.

My hat is just fine thank you, it says "Certified Instructor" on it or "Range Officer", depending on what I'm doing on a particular day.

[mikeysnot]

132. Little self important aren't you....

You need another hobby that does not revolve around chat forums and guns...

------.-------___.__.____-----.-----

I posted something snarky and rude for you but did not want to get hidden...

I can't help it... it is in my nature...

[GGJohn]

14. That is some really twisted logic you're trying to push there fella.

VPC has padded the numbers for years trying to advance their agenda of outlawing handgun possession by civilians.
It seems that because their agenda isn't gaining any traction, in fact, it's losing traction, their lies are getting more bold, but if you want to drink the Koolaid, have at it.

[mikeysnot]

29. Pointed logic?????

Sorry just try to keep the "Law abiding" and "responsible gun owner" and well regulated militia into the 2nd amendment.

Why do you feel the necessary to carry a gun everywhere?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

17. Funny. Grabbers try to claim GDUs only number a couple of hundred because

they refuse to accept DGUs when no one has been killed.

Since you have labeled all suicides bad to facilitate your campaign against gun use, how do you feel about Brittany Maynard?

She's the one who took her own life in November of last year. She was only 29 and newlywed when she was diagnosed with an untreated Stage 4 brain tumor. Is her suicide good or bad?

[mikeysnot]

25. they refuse to accept DGUs when no one has been killed.

Do you just make shit up as you go along?

Killing yourself with a gun is never good for the surviving family. My aunts neighbor husband blew his brains out, we used to carpool to high school with his kids.

The girls were so traumatized they dropped out. Not good and selfish.

I believe in assisted suicide, but there are waaaaay better ways to do it.

So pun firmly intended, you drew blanks again. Seems to be your MO.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

32. "Do you just make shit up as you go along?"

It comes from the much-touted "info" graphic claiming only ~220 people were lawfully killed in the cited year; as if those were the only DGUs.

Killing yourself with a gun is never good for the surviving family.

Which method of suicide is better?

The girls were so traumatized they dropped out. Not good and selfish.

No doubt but people who decides to shoot themselves have made a decision to take the most extreme, irreversible means available to them. In other words, they are determined. Downgrading their available tools isn't the answer because -- they are determined. They need crisis intervention, not failed prohibitionist schemes that do nothing but disarm peaceable people.

[mikeysnot]

34. peaceable people.????

With guns? Twisted logic AGAIN!

If you REALLY believe guns solve problems, please join the Iraqi forces fighting ISIS.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

35. Interesting.

In your mind anyone using a gun cannot possibly have peaceable intentions.

So, who do you presume is going to enforce your gun control laws? Aroma therapists?

[friendly_iconoclast]

38. "So, who do you presume is going to enforce your gun control laws? Aroma therapists?"

Now, THAT was funny!

[mikeysnot]

42. Laughs at their own jokes.

I would say THAT was funny but unfortunately... it is really sad.

[friendly_iconoclast]

50. It was a serious question, couched in a snarky tone. Who *will* enforce your proposed laws?

And why should they be trusted with a monopoly of force?

[NaturalHigh]

48. Do you think that guns should be restricted to the military?

Seriously?

[mikeysnot]

52. Are you one of those

"I'm ganno stand up to the Gov-ment with my gun" types?

Here you go, see how well that worked out for these guys...

And then theres this Rambozo with his assault rifle!

My Favorite gun nuts...

One more slap of "guns solve problems" reality for you....

Guns solve problems... I think not.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/post-tribune/crime/ct-ptb-ec-man-shot-outside-strip-club-st-0312-20150311-story.html

Escalate problems...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/post-tribune/crime/ct-ptb-ec-man-shot-outside-strip-club-st-0312-20150311-story.html

Seriously? DGU is lies and bullshit, you live a lie and fantasy.

No emoticon necessary.

[NaturalHigh]

54. No I'm not. Thanks for asking.

I keep two firearms in my house in case I ever need to protect my family from a criminal.

[mikeysnot]

56. I am totally cool with home protection

but now you need to protect everyone in the house from your guns. 47 to 1. nuff said.

[NaturalHigh]

58. We've had them for over ten years.

Never an accident or incident of any sort. I'm not worried about any problems. Thanks for your concern, though.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

61. That's a good thing...

...being free to act in one's own best interest within one's own home.

What does 47 to 1 mean?

[DonP]

62. 47 to 1? The 25 year old Kellerman study in Crack neighborhoods?

I could be wrong, but it's a habit of gun control "fans" to quote different numbers as to how much more likely you are to shoot a family member or "friend or associate" than defend yourself. I've seen them use 43, 21, 57 all kinds of random numbers. Total BS.

The one thing you won't see is any of them actually reading the study or the peer critiques of it that made Kellerman revise it three separate times.

So the number is accurate ... if it's the 1980's. if you live in a crack dealing neighborhood in the Northwest US at the height of the epidemic, and if you consider other drug dealers as "friends and associates" the way Kellerman did for his "research".

But the poster in question would rather believe a bumper sticker number he read on someone else post than the CDC and FBI numbers of Defensive Gun Uses. The DoJ and CDC are obviously biased. So I'm guessing trying to reason there is pretty pointless.

But hell, it's 10AM, sunny and already 50 degrees in the Chicago area. I'm going to the outdoor range with some folks from one of my CCW classes to qualify and allow more armed, law abiding citizens on the streets of Illinois that can defend themselves.

Meanwhile ... the control folks wring their hands in Mom's basement and play their violent Call of Duty games.

Happy Pi Day all.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

63. Some of the most meaningful data from Dr K:

"If you’ve got to resist, you’re chances of being hurt are less the more lethal your weapon. If that were my wife, would I want her to have a .38 Special in her hand? Yeah." (Health Magazine, March/April 1994)

Keep up the good work.

[mikeysnot]

67. When you get back from fantasy island

let us know... everything you wrote was pure projection. Based on flawed opinion masquerading as fact.

Law "abiding citizen".... what a fucking joke, in this City, ha hahaha.

[blueridge3210]

68. Kellerman's 47 to 1 number has been thoroughly debunked;

he has even walked it back and admitted it was wildly inflated.

[mikeysnot]

75. link please.

Debunked by who.. the gun proliferation industry?

[gejohnston]

80. those who peer reviewed it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x334436

http://www.aapsonline.org/press/medsentgun1.htm

[mikeysnot]

87. You are at the wrong site me brother... this is not a conservative web site.

The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons is a politically conservative non-profit association founded in 1943 to "fight socialized medicine and to fight the government takeover of medicine."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Physicians_and_Surgeons

In other words you are here touting conservative bowel movement causes.


Like all you other failures, I lost track..

shown your true colors I have....

[gejohnston]

99. This is a Democratic site for those who are center left

that includes people who are also capable of critical thinking and accepting reality. That also includes choosing empirical evidence over dogma.
Here is a site you should check out, you might learn something.
http://dontfallacy.me/list/
check out "guilt by association"
Since a lot of scholarly subjects are not online, or at least beyond my google fu, they come up on the list. I'm going to take a wild guess that you just put the name in the yahoo machine and came up with a Wiki article. That's special. I didn't have any idea who these people are, but this specific page is based on the best known research in criminology. On the other hand, maybe I meant to copy and paste this link
http://guncite.com/gun-control-kellermann-3times.html
and please, keep your comments rational and content based.
BTW, could you find any fault with the actual content? If Ted Nugent used your logic, he would be on your side after reading this report from President Obama's CDC
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=18319&page=R1

. Guns are used for self-defense often and effectively. “Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year … in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008,” says the report. The three million figure is probably high, “based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys.” But a much lower estimate of 108,000 also seems fishy, “because respondents were not asked specifically about defensive gun use.” Furthermore, “Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was 'used' by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies.”

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/human_nature/2013/06/handguns_suicides_mass_shootings_deaths_and_self_defense_findings_from_a.html

Keeping track of my failures is much easier than keeping track of yours in this place. Personally, I prefer to leave dogma, fallacious thinking, and bullshit to others. I try to reject it all. You seem to embrace it. That is your right of course, but not my choice.

[mikeysnot]

101. YOU posted links to a conservative web site!

as a source and then you sling guilt by association at me, and you should look that site over too.

This pretty much states it all...

based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys.

Hearsay presented as facts...

Did you even read what you just posted...

Obviously you are easily impressed....

Sorry guns used in defense of criminal gun use is the gift the gun industry keeps giving itself.

So based on most of the post in this thread I have come to the conclusion, either folks here are:

1. Paid shills working on behalf of the gun industries to maximize fear and push gun profits over people.

2. Or you are just....

[gejohnston]

104. based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys.

do you know how polls work? They used the same polling methods every other poll uses. What is small number? The average political poll is a couple of hundred. Kleck polled five thousand. Cook half that. The "small number" without explaining what they are shows dishonesty on your source's part and banking on ignorance and incuriosity.
Kleck was paid by the university he works for
Cook was funded by the Joyce Foundation, the same people who astro turf the Brady Campaign.

[friendly_iconoclast]

120. So? What you're attempying is a genetic fallacy

[mikeysnot]

133. Like everything else you posted that!

Makes No Sense!

[DonP]

69. Coming from a control "Fan" that's really funny ... and, as usual, pathetic

So Law Abiding is a joke? LoL!

Yeah, the bloodbath in Illinois in our first year from 96,000+ CCW permit holders has been horrible

Let's see. Every CCW applicant has to submit to an FBI and Illinois State Police background check, in addition to the ones they had when they bought a gun and applied for their FOID card.

Then they have 16 hours of training by an Illinois State Police certified instructor, have to qualify at the range with their firearm and submit their fingerprints for another FBI check.

There are days when I speculate that some of the gun grabber types are just so angry all the time because some of these these pathetic losers couldn't pass the same background check requirements, but that's just idle speculation. Something gun control people do all the time.

The pathetic part comes in when you look at your results. Nada! Zilch! And it only costs Dems seats and Governorships, so it's all worth it, right? The other pathetic part is the celebration from gun control "supporters" any time someone dies in a gun accident, oh, you all care so much, unless it's a gun owner, then it's a punch line for the small pack of losers.

Gun control is totally and well funded from the top down by 1%ers , most of which are major league hypocrites and have armed security details like Bloomberg, Gates et. al. and you all pretend to care so very much, but don't actually ever have to get out your checkbook, drive to a state capital to demonstrate or do anything to support your "cause" besides whining online.

With millions of 1% $$$ behind you, you still can't get jack or shit done.

This week we'll have around 10,000 gun owners in Springfield for our annual Illinois Gun Owners Lobby (I-GOLD) Day meeting with state reps and senators and demonstrating in the streets. So, tell the class what are your plans for counter demonstrating? Give us a few examples of how you took to the streets to show support for your pet cause?

And tell us all again how the "tide is turning", "fewer people own guns", "the FBI UCR is wrong" and we'll keep pointing to the falling violent crime rate and laughing at you

[Mugu]

70. Don, I agree with everything you said/wrote,

with one tiny exception.

Here in Illinois we are not required to be fingerprinted in order to obtain a carry permit. Many people elect to not submit their fingerprints because it is an additional $60 expense on top of the $250 for the training class and the $150 application fee to the state.

By law, the state has up to 120 days to decide if they are going to issue a permit. For qualified persons that submit prints it usually takes around 30 days. For qualified persons that don’t summit prints it usually takes around 100 days.

[DonP]

72. Correct, but Instructors have to submit prints

And I've encouraged all my students to submit them after the first couple of classes I taught.

After going through all the training the extra delay proved to be really frustrating for some folks. So I found a local source that will comes to the class and does the digital prints right there and submits them online in real time. Speeds the process up and cuts down on the cost and inconvenience for everyone.

Plus, they do the digital prints now for $40 each, if you have a whole class, and the lessons are down to around $175 for the full 16 hours, if you shop around a little. So it's still expensive but getting better.

I think they are trying to reduce the training requirement to 8 hours in this legislative session. But even that seems like overdoing it. I had a married couple, both Marines just back from Afghanistan, that wanted their permit and still had to sit through the full 8 hour class and qualify on the range.

[mikeysnot]

74. Like I said when you get back from fantasy island let us know.

Violent crime rate has been falling for the last 30 years and to attribute that to ccl is a complete logical fallacy, but then again that seems to be your MO.


The bloodbath meme is just gun nut lunacy projected on folks that want the "well regulated" to be part of the second amendment ....


And besides all your name calling is boring me... I guess you have nothing to offer.

[DonP]

79. Ummm, nobody said CCL was the cause of the drop in violent crime

Please stop projecting your unfounded deductions and unsupported paranoia on others Mr. Snot.

There are now over 11 million concealed carry holders. Violent crime is at a 40 year low. I like Rainbow Cone Ice Cream. See, separate sentences, that's the way the English language works.

If I tried to combine those two into a single statement, implying causation, then you might have a point, But nobody here has done that that I'm aware of.

The "CCW Bloodbath" predictions are a staple of the gun control fans.

We heard it here on DU for pretty much every state that passed shall issue and now it's being trotted out dusted off and used again for national reciprocity. Funded by your own beloved 1%er Bloomberg.

I have "nothing to offer", after explaining to you how ccw works in detail? All you are able to offer are old, debunked studies, in vague terms and petty. peurile insults. Typical gun control fan. No wonder you guys can't get anything done.

But feel free to run away from any discussion that embarrasses you. It seems to be SOP for gun controllers.

Here's your hat, have a nice day.

[mikeysnot]

66. 47 to 1

look it up... facts and statistics... you know.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

83. "DGU is lies and bullshit, you live a lie and fantasy."

It's very telling that the thought of people defending themselves makes you so angry.

[mikeysnot]

84. Makes me angry? Ahhh No...

pretending it happens when it does not, and most of the times than not the gun is used to kill innocent people. but you can believe it!

[Nuclear Unicorn]

92. You're emotionally invested in a debunked study. That says its an agenda.

But let's drink a lot of tequila and pretend you're right.

If the odds of successfully defending one's self with a gun is 1:47 what are the odds of successfully defending one's self while unarmed?

[oneshooter]

47. Lets see the police report.

After all, without the police report it is only hearsay.

[mikeysnot]

51. Whoops responded to the wrong one!

edited... that is what I get for not coming here for a while...

I think I can find the article, I think I have it saved in a book cut out from the newspaper.

Most of the information is first hand since they were my aunts neighbor and we carpooled and I was friends with them, that info will not be in there. But the death notice and report will be in there, sorry nice try.

If I find this I will come back here with a scan.

###Update, no luck so far finding it, it was from 1981, so I doubt my little town has it online....

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

10. A relevant question would be...

..."Did they kill themselves with their CC permits?"

Many folks without CC permits carry and kill in public, most public gun deaths in fact have no connection whatever to those that CC. Which brings up the fact that "gun control" is a myth. At least the control part is. The only folks that obey the laws are the good and fine citizens who vote, work hard and respect others. It is the evil among us that rape, kill and steal who don't obey.

[mikeysnot]

18. No the gun killed them.

not the plastic card. And then you segued into the law abiding citizen crap.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

19. Good to know you agree...

...that the card/permit was irrelevant. Thanks.

[mikeysnot]

26. No just showing another correlation between

mental illness and the need to carry a concealed weapon where ever they go, but nice try!

[GGJohn]

28. So you're saying that those of us on this board that have CHL's

are mentally ill?

[mikeysnot]

30. Why do you feel the need to carry a gun everywhere?

Just asking.....

[GGJohn]

31. Dodging the question?

Just asking......
Answer mine and I'll answer yours.

[mikeysnot]

43. What that your mentally ill?

I don't know you so no based on your one post... now answer mine...

[GGJohn]

49. I've never said I carry a gun everywhere. eom.

[mikeysnot]

53. Do you?

Answer the question...

[GGJohn]

55. No, I do not. eom.

[mikeysnot]

57. Then why are you so

sensitive?

[GGJohn]

59. Why are you so rude? eom.

[mikeysnot]

64. Answer the question.

Not being rude, you are being defensive...

[GGJohn]

73. Demanding me to answer a question is the wrong tack to take.

And you are being rude, and I'm not being defensive.

[mikeysnot]

77. right back at ya!

SO you still don't want to answer the question? I wonder why that is?

[Duckhunter935]

60. "So you're saying that those of us on this board that have CHL's"

Why can't you answer a simple question?

That seems to be a problem with the controller crowd.

[mikeysnot]

65. What question didn't I answer?

Sensitive you are.

[Duckhunter935]

71. This simple question put to you by GGJohn

GGJohn
"So you're saying that those of us on this board that have CHL's
are mentally ill?"

Such a simple question and you just are not able to answer it. So is it YES or NO?

"Sensitive you are."

Nope, however I do get kind of annoyed how none of you controllers can answer simple questions. Seems to be a common thing among you the controller set. I have noticed all of the RKBA side tends to answer questions, your side, not so much. Why is that?

[mikeysnot]

76. More name calling.

The reason I didn't answer the question is because it is fucking stupid! I do not paint with a broad brush, but based on most of your posts I see why you are sensitive for any attempt to put the "well regulated" part of the 2nd...

[Duckhunter935]

81. What name calling?

We already have many regulations and rules. You seem to want more and a lot of the ones that have been proposed by the "gun safety" croud do nothing or ban items that are not the issue.

You seem to be a little sensitive yourself and might want to calm down.

By the way, the answer to that simple question should be NO. Very simple to answer.

[mikeysnot]

88. We already have many regulations and rules.

name them? bullshit.

Another point, yes people that kill themselves are mentally ill. Perfectly healthy people do NOT KILL THEMSELVES.

So the numbers show that 63% of the CCL gun deaths that killed themselves were able to pass the background checks and get gunz.

tell me what gun laws are out there? I do not see any.

[blueridge3210]

91. Then open your eyes, young one.

Under 18? Cannot legally purchase a long gun.

Under 21? Cannot legally purchase a handgun.

Felony Record? Domestic Violence conviction? Cannot legally purchase any firearm.

Adjudicated mentally incompetent? Cannot legally purchase any firearm.

Many more where those came from.

[mikeysnot]

93. And yet we have the most gun deaths in the world.

enjoy your popcorn.

[blueridge3210]

94. And yet, contrary to your "bullshit" claim

I demonstrated that we do have numerous firearms laws on the books.

My popcorn is fine; thanks for asking.

[mikeysnot]

96. you posted three

you are obviously easily impressed.

I on the other hand am not.

[Duckhunter935]

100. How about these? Why too many to post.

Have to link to them so you might be inclined to read and learn that you previous claim was and is bullshit

https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Publications/atf_p_5300.4-updated_2014_firearms_reference_guide_3-7-15.pdf

Additional firearms regulations are linked here, lots of good reading on the existing regulations.

§478.1 Scope of regulations.

(a) General. The regulations contained in this part relate to commerce in firearms and ammunition and are promulgated to implement Title I, State Firearms Control Assistance (18 U.S.C. Chapter 44), of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (82 Stat. 1213) as amended by Pub. L. 99-308 (100 Stat. 449), Pub. L. 99-360 (100 Stat. 766), Pub. L. 99-408 (100 Stat. 920), Pub. L. 103-159 (107 Stat. 1536), Pub. L. 103-322 (108 Stat. 1796), Pub. L. 104-208 (110 Stat. 3009), and Pub. L. 105-277 (112 Stat. 2681).

(b) Procedural and substantive requirements. This part contains the procedural and substantive requirements relative to:

(1) The interstate or foreign commerce in firearms and ammunition;

(2) The licensing of manufacturers and importers of firearms and ammunition, collectors of firearms, and dealers in firearms;

(3) The conduct of business or activity by licensees;

(4) The importation of firearms and ammunition;

(5) The records and reports required of licensees;

(6) Relief from disabilities under this part;

(7) Exempt interstate and foreign commerce in firearms and ammunition; and

(8) Restrictions on armor piercing ammunition.

[T.D. ATF-270, 53 FR 10490, Mar. 31, 1988, as amended by T.D. ATF-354, 59 FR 7112, Feb. 14, 1994; T.D. ATF-363, 60 FR 17450, Apr. 6, 1995; T.D. ATF-401, 63 FR 35522, June 30, 1998; T.D. ATF-471, 67 FR 5425, Feb. 5, 2002]

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=24dbe3b8d746d9774bb2d012b09c3ccb&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title27/27cfr478_main_02.tpl

[Duckhunter935]

109. He did not respond to my posts either

I guess he gets shy when proven wrong. Who would have figured that.

[blueridge3210]

111. Who indeed?

Really, Stevie Wonder could have seen that coming!

[Duckhunter935]

112. oh my

[Duckhunter935]

98. read the regulations here

https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Publications/atf_p_5300.4-updated_2014_firearms_reference_guide_3-7-15.pdf

See page 12

(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person—

(4) has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;

Maybe we should work on our mental health system and information in the existing NICS background check.

Additional firearms regulations are linked here, lots of good reading on the existing regulations.

§478.1 Scope of regulations.

(a) General. The regulations contained in this part relate to commerce in firearms and ammunition and are promulgated to implement Title I, State Firearms Control Assistance (18 U.S.C. Chapter 44), of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (82 Stat. 1213) as amended by Pub. L. 99-308 (100 Stat. 449), Pub. L. 99-360 (100 Stat. 766), Pub. L. 99-408 (100 Stat. 920), Pub. L. 103-159 (107 Stat. 1536), Pub. L. 103-322 (108 Stat. 1796), Pub. L. 104-208 (110 Stat. 3009), and Pub. L. 105-277 (112 Stat. 2681).

(b) Procedural and substantive requirements. This part contains the procedural and substantive requirements relative to:

(1) The interstate or foreign commerce in firearms and ammunition;

(2) The licensing of manufacturers and importers of firearms and ammunition, collectors of firearms, and dealers in firearms;

(3) The conduct of business or activity by licensees;

(4) The importation of firearms and ammunition;

(5) The records and reports required of licensees;

(6) Relief from disabilities under this part;

(7) Exempt interstate and foreign commerce in firearms and ammunition; and

(8) Restrictions on armor piercing ammunition.

[T.D. ATF-270, 53 FR 10490, Mar. 31, 1988, as amended by T.D. ATF-354, 59 FR 7112, Feb. 14, 1994; T.D. ATF-363, 60 FR 17450, Apr. 6, 1995; T.D. ATF-401, 63 FR 35522, June 30, 1998; T.D. ATF-471, 67 FR 5425, Feb. 5, 2002]

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=24dbe3b8d746d9774bb2d012b09c3ccb&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title27/27cfr478_main_02.tpl

Yep, once again I am correct and you are just plain wrong

[Duckhunter935]

113. where did you go Mikey?

proven wrong and you run away?

"tell me what gun laws are out there? I do not see any."

Gun laws in Oklahoma
regulate the sale, possession, and use of firearms and ammunition in the state of Oklahoma in the United States.[1][2]

Oklahoma is generally a gun-friendly state, and has mostly less-restrictive gun laws. Being part of the Southern United States and Western United States, Oklahoma is home to a strong gun culture, which is reflected in Oklahoma's gun laws.

On May 15, 2012, Oklahoma State Senate Bill 1733 was signed into law by Governor Mary Fallin, which authorized open and concealed carry of handguns by permit holders. This law took effect November 1, 2012, and made Oklahoma the 25th state of the United States to allow licensed open carry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Oklahoma

You know each state also has gun laws, right? Wow that's got to leave a mark.

[mikeysnot]

121. that was sad

and pathetic.... I guess I should have been more specific on gun control laws, not licensed carry... sad.

[gejohnston]

20. if a knife was used,

would you say the knife killed them? In the case of suicides, that the rope killed them? Unless the acts on its own, the human killed them regardless of the tool used.

[mikeysnot]

27. Stay on topic

gun, ccl is the topic... nice attempt to try and get of subject and deflect away from guns.

[gejohnston]

36. it is about guns

and the misuse of language. The OP is really about disinformation and misusing language.

As for the "made up number of DGUs" there is only one academic claiming that it is made up, and he isn't taken seriously in sociology circles. The most famous study that put them in that ball park simply confirmed 15 previous studies.

[mikeysnot]

103. link please...

[gejohnston]

106. these studies go back to the 1970s

not that it matters because you won't bother to read them. You will just scream "NRA shill".
If I find it, I'll let you know. I first read about them in a couple of criminology books.

[mikeysnot]

122. so you don't have any?

[gejohnston]

124. You mean like the Hart study?

or Wright Rossi?
I read the latter's book. No they aren't online. The Hart study is from the 1970s. You can buy Wright Rossi from Amazon. But then, they were published in peer reviewed sociology and criminology journals. That by itself gives them more credence than a advocacy group who make shit up and calls it "study".

[mikeysnot]

131. Link please

So a study from the 70's pertains to today? reaching aren't you...

[gejohnston]

134. not everything is online

given that it was the first of 15 that refute Sugarmann's bullshit, yes it does.
Not that you would bother reading them, or understanding them if you did.

[petronius]

12. And how many more of them occurred in the home, where 'carry' was irrelevant?

And of the remainder, how many were crimes in which a person specifically went to commit violence?

If they want to examine a relationship between CCW and violence, they need to focus on the crimes that involved a firearm which otherwise would not have been present without the CCW permit. Did they give a number for that?

[ManiacJoe]

13. Logic and counting have never been strong abilities

for the VPC and Brady organizations.

[Duckhunter935]

15. more puffing up the numbers

They just can not tell the true numbers but have to stretch them beyond the breaking point. No wonder nobody that is smart enough to do some simple research takes that group seriously.

[petronius]

16. Well, sometimes the numbers just don't tell the 'real' story,

and they have to be massaged into telling the 'truth'...

[Logical]

21. They ignore the fact that you are much more likely to be killed by an average citizen than a.....

licensed CC citizen.

[hack89]

22. They ignore many things -including the truth. Nt

[mikeysnot]

90. Guns kill

you ignore a lot also.

[hack89]

108. No shit

many things kill many people.

[Duckhunter935]

110. here are a few

knives
cars
drugs
alcohol
bikes
motorcycles
electricity

[mikeysnot]

123. pulling out the old reliable...

from the bad analogy drawer...

knives - multiple uses,
cars - licensed and insurance to drive, multiple uses
drug - these are all self inflicted... show me the story of the family that was on a walk in a park and a killer slipped them drugs to kill them.
alcohol - we have strong laws on drinking and driving and drinking underage.

the other ones are just stupid not work commenting on ....

[beevul]

138. Not so reliable.

"cars - licensed and insurance to drive, multiple uses"

Only when public. Drive on private property with out to your hearts content.

"drug - these are all self inflicted... show me the story of the family that was on a walk in a park and a killer slipped them drugs to kill them."

So are suicides with a firearm. Nice to know you folks wont be including them in gun violence numbers from now on!

[ileus]

23. Without suicides these body bag count groups would be out of business.

[DonP]

24. Careful there, everyone knows "Mental Health" issues are just an NRA talking point

Suicides, by any means, fall clearly under the mental health area IMHO.

After Sandy Hook, for about 5 minutes, people were actually talking about addressing the lack of mental health support in the country.

Then our control minded friends announced that pointing out mental health concerns was just another NRA Talking Point. The real problem was the need for more gun control, regardless of whether it was relevant or effective.

Cho, Loughner, Lanza, Alexis all used different types of firearms from a .22 pistol to a pump shotgun. But all had a history of mental illness and threatening behavior that family, friends, or in the case of Cho, a faculty advisor didn't want to report it for fear of "stigmatizing" them.

That was the last I heard of anyone wanting to address mental health needs.

[NaturalHigh]

39. Padding the numbers? Surely not.

I have it on good authority that firearms have killed everyone since Moses.

[mikeysnot]

78. Your PEEPS

Gun saves lives, again!

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/man-two-children-found-dead-after-21-hour-standoff-missouri-n324701

Man, Two Children Found Dead After 21-Hour Standoff in Missouri

An armed standoff in Springfield, Missouri, ended after 21 hours Monday night when police entered the suspect's home and found him and his two young children dead, authorities said.

Springfield police Lt. Eric Reece said Monday night that the suspect, identified as William R. Williams, 51, appeared to have shot his son, Brodie, 4, and his daughter, Marley, 2, and then himself. The Missouri State Highway Patrol, one of several law enforcement agencies that assisted in the confrontation, previously said the suspect was a civilian patrol employee in the early 1990s, but it would provide no other details.

[friendly_iconoclast]

82. I love the smell of collective guilt-tripping in the morning; it smells like...

....desperation

[mikeysnot]

95. desperation

like guns save lives... in a month this thread has been going on, not one of you posted a defensive gun use link, now that is desperation!

[Duckhunter935]

105. Here is just two after a very short search

Man arrested after trying to rob woman at Socastee ATM with needle

CONWAY (WBTW) - Horry County Police arrested a man in connection to an armed robbery attempt at a Socastee bank on Saturday morning.

Police say Justin Lee Abernathy, 24, of Conway charged with armed robbery with an alleged deadly.

According to a press release, a woman told officers as she was withdrawing money from the ATM at the Conway National Bank branch in Socastee when a man approached her truck's window, showed her a large needle, and demanded she give him money. She told police he threatened to inject her with the needle.

The woman told police she pulled out her handgun and stuck it in the suspects face saying "I dare you to stab me!"

http://wvtm.membercenter.worldnow.com/story/28354244/horry-county-pd-man-tried-to-rob-woman-with-needle

Charlie Blackmore, Wisconsin Marine Corps Veteran, Draws Gun On Suspect In Beating (VIDEO)
Marine Corps veteran Charlie Blackmore stopped a beating by drawing his concealed carry weapon on a suspect Tuesday.

A Marine Corps veteran with a concealed carry permit stopped a suspect in a brutal beating in West Allis, Wis., on Tuesday morning when he drew his gun and called the police.

Charlie Blackmore, Jr. told Wisconsin Fox affiliate WITI that he saw a man kicking a woman in the head and belly at the side of the road as he was driving to work early the morning of March 12. He pulled his car over and told the suspect to stop, but the man came towards him.

That's when Blackmore, who served in the Marines from 2005 to 2007, decided to draw his weapon, a 9mm handgun. Blackmore told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel that the suspect, who he estimated stood more than 6 feet tall and weighed about 220 pounds, proceeded to taunt him, reportedly saying "Shoot me, then."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/16/charlie-blackmore-marine-veteran-draws-gun_n_2891176.html

[mikeysnot]

125. Yes and yeterdays police blotter in one US city

buries these examples. These cases are so far and few between that they almost don't even register... Once again some of the ebst arguments for gun control come from the pro gun crowds themselves.

Fist story, she could have just drove off.... sounds like more gun fanaticism to me...

second story a Marine?? needed a gun to stop a wife beater? Really....?

Come on, if there are 38k of these daily why are you samples so pathetic...

This is the reality of unregulated guns in our society....

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-wisconsin-bridge-shooting-20150503-story.html

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-homan-square-shooting-20150324-story.html

[Duckhunter935]

114. What happened to you Mikey?

facts too much for you?

[mikeysnot]

126. No reality is

your opinions are not facts....

I don't live here, I have a life.

[Eleanors38]

115. Mikey, did you draw the short straw today?

[DonP]

117. Well, this is his Favorite DU Group so he'll be back ... then go away again

Funny how the gun control fans, even the hosts, all seem to wind up here rather than at Castle Bansalot with their kin?

[Eleanors38]

118. Stone Space had the duty a few days ago. Must be a round robbin.

[DonP]

119. Unless they're the same person?

Not the first time that has happened on DU.

But I have noticed what I think is the return of "Shares United" again, under another new identity for the fourth time.

I'm just waiting to see how long before his innate personality comes out to be sure.

[mikeysnot]

130. Being So Wrong must be your favorite past time...

[DonP]

137. Nah, my favorite pastime (pssst, it's one word) is training new concealed gun carriers.

While you were on "vacation" I trained 18 more and another class starts next week.

Now tell us what you did in the real world to support your gun control obsession while you were gone?

Or are you just another of those pathetic whiners online, that never really does anything in the real world to backup their "principles".

Hey, you might want to go up to GD and Castle Bansalot and join the beat down on Bernie Sanders as a candidate, since he voted for the law that protects gun manufacturers from lawsuits. There are people swearing they won't vote for him if he's the candidate.

They are your kind of people and you'll be a hero I bet.

[mikeysnot]

139. So your a "biased" gun users

You make "money" off of perpetuating gun use in this country... well now we know.


the rest of your post is bullshit. and will be ignored.

[DonP]

141. Yeah, I'm part of the conspiracy

That's why I trained a group of six Pink Pistol member last week that included 2 African American women.

Pretty funny stuff, only took you 2 months to ignore me. Pretty typical "activism" from the control side.

All whine and no action, pathetic as usual.

[mikeysnot]

142. You are really fulll of yourself arent you?

"All whine and no action, pathetic as usual."

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Demonstrated tie and time again.

No your not part of the conspiracy, just part of the problem.

The self perpetuating problem of "needing" a gun to protect yourself from another asshole with a gun is THE PROBLEM!

Like I stated before I have life outside internet chat forums.

Unlike you that keeps track of my posts....

[DonP]

143. Now that's good tasting irony

"Unlike you that keeps track of my posts...."

This from the guy that shows up with an answer to my post 2 months later.

Yup, you are the quintessential gun control supporter. Keep up the good work, you;re doing so well.

[mikeysnot]

144. Thanks I will

Like this is the "Only" place to post?

BTW... I am curious what you sit on?

[mikeysnot]

129. Why are you always confused on things?

And have everything backwards? Just asking don't but don't really care about your response.

[Eleanors38]

135. You're late. When's your shift?

[mikeysnot]

140. Late for what?

I haven't signed in in months. After 30 days your post no longer show under "My Posts"...

[mikeysnot]

128. Nice theory

I mostly like the space and science topics. I was just responding to the original post ridiculous opinion.

[mikeysnot]

127. Nope, just a life

that does not revolve around a web chat forum...

[Eleanors38]

136. Yeah, I was off for nearly 3 mos. No harm came of it!

[Eleanors38]

116. NYT must be breaking in some recent J school grads.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

145. (cough) Ahem... ...KICK...

...and rec

[Eleanors38]

146. Letting this one age?

[beevul]

147. Its a timeless classic. N/T