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Fri Jun 26, 2015, 06:20 PM

The Controller mentality

Here is something I have seen constantly among pro-gun control advocates here that continues to elude me.

Outside of this particular board they post on other topics. Many will post on a variety topics, others are a bit more narrow concerning where they offer comment. However, there is one thing that is nearly universal among them to some degree:

They all find a deep-seated dissatisfaction with the government in at least one facet. Some will tell you the police are killing unarmed civilians either out of the arrogance of power and/or racist animosity. Some will tell you we are being sold-out by the politicians to multi-national corporations that heed no national laws and are laws unto themselves. Many will claim the government has all but discarded our civil liberties and the Bill of Rights in the name of a surveillance police state. Others will claim the government wages illegal wars of aggression. Still others will even tell you the US government engineered 9/11. We incessantly hear of stolen elections and corrupt appointments.

Every person posting here on behalf of expanded gun control subscribes to at least one of these propositions. Some of these complaints I find absurd but there are many to which I am sympathetic to varying degrees.

But I'm not really interested in arguing the veracity of these claims. In fact, for the purposes of this OP I will assume the claims are all as true insofar as the proponents state them to be.

So why then the mania to disarm the people?

If you truly believe the government is a racist, corporatist, lawless, war-mongering, murdering, self-selecting, rights-abusing police state why in Heaven's name are the people to be made defenseless? Even if you believe civilians could never match modern militaries (the Viet Cong, ISIS, etc. may beg to differ) the entire premise of gun control relies upon the assertion that the government is and forever will be a beneficent caretaker.

How does anyone reconcile these beliefs in their own minds?

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Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 19 replies Author Time Post
Reply The Controller mentality (Original post)
Nuclear Unicorn Jun 2015 OP
upaloopa Jun 2015 #1
Nuclear Unicorn Jun 2015 #2
upaloopa Jun 2015 #4
Nuclear Unicorn Jun 2015 #5
benEzra Jun 2015 #6
TeddyR Jun 2015 #9
oneshooter Jun 2015 #14
Shamash Jun 2015 #15
oneshooter Jun 2015 #16
Shamash Jun 2015 #3
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2015 #7
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2015 #8
Nuclear Unicorn Jun 2015 #10
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2015 #11
Nuclear Unicorn Jun 2015 #12
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2015 #13
Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2015 #17
friendly_iconoclast Jul 2015 #18
virginia mountainman Jul 2015 #19

Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Fri Jun 26, 2015, 06:30 PM

1. There is no mania to disarm the people here

A few say they want to ban all guns but most know that is not realistic
People want to reduce gun violence. That is a worth while cause
What I don't understand is the irrational fear that somebody is going to take your gun away.
I think if we all were to work together we could do something about gun violence but the gun lobby promotes the idea that the government is coming after your gun and you believe it like kids believe in Santa Claus.

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Response to upaloopa (Reply #1)

Fri Jun 26, 2015, 06:33 PM

2. You can claim "no one wants to take away your guns" but the postings speak differently.

Since Charleston they have been a little less restrained.

But, again, how do they reconcile their beliefs in disarming the people to be left in the care of a government they claim is racist, war-mongering, lawless, etc.

I'm pretty sure they can't and it embarrasses them.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #2)

Fri Jun 26, 2015, 06:48 PM

4. DU is a bubble world. Posters can't take your guns away

Every time there is a shooting the extremes come out of the woodwork.
In this country gun ownership is the law. We just need to work to keep guns out of the wrong hands if possible.

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Response to upaloopa (Reply #4)

Fri Jun 26, 2015, 07:07 PM

5. I have no arguments about any of your points but in fairness it doesn't answer my OP.

I'm curious to hear from those who do subscribe to the aforementioned theories while also seeking to ban guns.

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Response to upaloopa (Reply #1)

Fri Jun 26, 2015, 10:10 PM

6. There are some very well funded lobbying groups trying very hard

to outlaw the most popular civilian rifles, all magazines over 10 rounds, etc. I think they will fail, but it is not paranoia to observe that they have introduced legislation to do so, have passed such bans in CA, NY, CT, and MD, and have repeatedly introduced such legislation elsewhere. The fact that they do not have the political support to spread those bans elsewhere does not mean that they are not trying.

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Response to upaloopa (Reply #1)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 03:49 PM

9. Agree that there's zero chance that the government is going to ban guns.

 

Especially after Heller confirmed that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to keep and bear arms. But those calling for a ban/confiscation play into the hands of groups like Gun Owners of America, who can point to the calls for confiscation to rally their members.

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Response to oneshooter (Reply #14)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 01:08 PM

15. That was his evil goateed twin

 

This is the real upaloopa:

I made a resolution at the beginning of the year no to take sides in this debate. I think I can understand both sides.

That or upaloopa is a bit schizo and forgetful, one or the other.

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Response to Shamash (Reply #15)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 05:50 PM

16. You have noticed that he has run away. n/t

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Fri Jun 26, 2015, 06:45 PM

3. Don't you worry your tiny little mind over it

 

The "right sort of people" will always have access to weapons to protect themselves. You don't think Bloomberg's armed guards are going to let some out-of-control cop wrestle him to the ground? Or that Chuck Schumer or Diane Feinstein will ever be without 24/7 pistol-packing protection? Don't be silly. And since the sub-1% are the ones who really matter when it comes to the future of this country, everything will work out fine. Trust us, and remember the gun control motto:

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength

Well, that last one, anyway. Our local GC crowd is a perfect example of doublethink.

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Response to Shamash (Reply #3)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 01:06 PM

7. Sound like anything you may have read:

Afraid to lose control
And caught up in this world
I've wasted time, I've wasted breath
I think I've thought myself to death

I was born without this fear
Now only this seems clear
I need to move, I need to fight
I need to lose myself tonight

.....

I think with my heart and I move with my head
I open my mouth and it's something I've read
I stood at this door before, I'm told
But a part of me knows that I'm growing too old

Confused what I thought with something I felt
Confuse what I feel with something that's real
I tried to sell my soul last night
Funny, he wouldn't even take a bite

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/kongos/comewithmenow.html

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 02:42 PM

8. IMHO, many in the extreme end of the control group...

...reject the basic premise of criminal law; that the criminal justice system is designed to investigate, try and convict the criminals and to then impose penalties, extra supervision and, sometimes, segregation on those convicted.

These folks believe in, what I consider, the control myth. I call it a myth because scientifically control is defined as a closed loop system where a monitor measures and analyzes a quantified attribute of a system and a mechanism linked to the monitor operates to restore the measured attribute to the desired level. (Like a thermostat or the inlet valve in a toilet tank.)

Gun control only controls the activities of those who personally choose to subscribe to it. As is blatantly evident from the news, many people often choose otherwise. Numerous posts here and readily available information from many sources clearly illustrate that THERE IS NO POSITIVE CONTROL FOR PEOPLE. Further, positive control of people is the antithesis of freedom.

Maybe I'm just stupid but I kind of thought we (and by we I mean Americans in general and Democrats specifically) believe in freedom.

Murder, robbery, rape, arson... these are all violent crimes. We have laws that provide for convicting perpetrators and applying a sentence. A secondary effect of those laws may be that, out of fear of the consequences, some folks that would otherwise commit these crimes don't. That's not control because, as evidenced by those that still choose to rob, rape, kill..., do make that choice and sometimes get away with it.

The idea of a ban on property isn't new. In the past we've banned alcohol, gold (in certain forms), drugs and maybe some other things I can't remember right now. People still had those things but were forced to engage criminal behavior that, of itself, didn't harm anyone. Growing pot in the yard probably hurts nobody. Making your own wine probably hurts nobody. Merely owning a .45, AFAIK, hurts nobody. Banning behaviors has similar results. All that stuff I named in the paragraph above, that stuff still happens.

I believe that at least 2 out of 3 people would be good positive contributors even in a society of anarchy. I don't see man as purely good and benevolent; I accept that maybe a third of the time a third of the not so wholesome third might steal the can of tuna from the Sack o' Duds store but not even a third of a third of a third of a third of a third would shoot the clerk.

Seeking to control folks, in my mind, is a sign of evil. Thanks for your patience to anyone that's taken the time to read this.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #8)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 05:03 PM

10. A welcomed addition to the OP. Thank you. nt

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #10)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 05:13 PM

11. Bienvenue

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #11)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 05:53 PM

12. um --

"Geshundheit"?

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #12)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 06:03 PM

13. And your health as well

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Fri Jul 17, 2015, 06:05 PM

17. This thread illustrates my point better than I might have suspected --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026983985

So many of the posters rightfully decrying police brutality are the same voices demanding these very same police possess a monopoly on all force forever more. I wish I could make sense of it.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #17)

Sat Jul 18, 2015, 12:25 AM

18. I'll try to ask some of those posters about it, should the opportunity present itself

 

I certainly hope others will, as well.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #17)

Sat Jul 18, 2015, 02:51 AM

19. It makes no sense at all NT

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