I informed Skinner of my support for darkangel's proposal for a SD Group in DU.

To discuss the contents as some of them were personal. I don't know if she wants to join the discussion.

...Skinner's reply. I wasn't sure if there was further discussion or activity anywhere on the site.

I assume you know what that means, but we can discuss it if you'd like.

safehaven?

Had a surprisingly high amount of good feedback. Just gotta get the TOS up and running and we should be golden.

I suspect, because it was not going as the deleter hoped it would.

So lets see:

First, it was posted in GD to try and derail the discussion, then after the discussion wasn't going as planned, deleted the thread to bring it to a halt.

Can anyone make the case that the anti-gun folks don't want to control the discussion where guns are concerned, now?

For a while, anything about guns was allowed. Now, GD appears to be in its rare no-guns mode. And SD may include firearms.

You posted about it.

Why did you self-cancel?

on Democratic Underground.

I probably shouldn't have cross-posted it at all since it wasn't a formal request to form the group.

Ok

New "self-defence" group? Meaning self defence with guns? Or just general self defence as in Karate and Judo?

Bike wheels. Very effective, I've heard.

some kind of measure of interest, once the controller panic is stripped away. I like the idea, and it can be useful for all, although I don't know how much hosting I can do. I can help with a SOP, and anyone who wishes to host should raise their hand!

Even non-gun forms could fall under the definition of "arms" in many cases.

I think the issue is more those who ridicule the idea of self-defense and believe you should give the criminal anything(including your body and life) to protect the criminal's well being.

Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027285855


I suspect some folks are not happy with this proposal, and would prefer only one safe haven related in any way to guns.

Guns be damned; Everyone in the world should have a basic right of self-determination, and that includes self-defense. I can think of very few progressives who would oppose that.

We can all learn from different experiences, guns or no.

For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.

Otherwise, this may well devolve into the celebratory blog equivalent of a "snuff film" by a handful of extremists or trolls-- something I feel certain Skinner would want to avoid.

I am sorry if that offends some proposing this group, but it is the reality elsewhere on the internet. Not all strong gun proponents are equally rational.

however, as the military will tell you, there is no such thing as non-lethal there is only lethal and less than lethal. Pepper spray can be lethal, it can also be ineffective. There are also things like what is best when firearms are not appropriate, like living in NYC if you are not rich. I know a guy that even though he has guns for hunting and target shooting, and he doesn't need a permit, being a Wyoming resident, he doesn't carry one. In town, he carries a tactical pen.

While a celebratory blog would be bad, a "monday morning quarterback" would be good. I think analyzing why a shoot, or stab or whatever, was good or bad and what could have been done better.

I think also, self defense group should also discuss improvised weapons. If you are close enough, a couple of class room chairs across, say, Mercer's face while others secure the pistol would have naturalized the threat every bit as much as a student with a pistol.
Of course, there is always the fire extinguisher.
http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/video/using-a-fire-extinguisher-as-a-defensive-tool-004392/

I would also like to see honest discussions about what is and what is not legitimate self defense and self defense of others, along with the laws of SYG vs DTR. Or is the defense of others a "reasonable person" or "alter ego" state. One thing I emphasis to anyone I teach how to shoot is that Wyoming is a duty to retreat state, not SYG outside of the home.

for more details, see post 20.

I'd be glad to help writing up anything you need, ironing out the process the best we can. We're gonna catch hell (as evidenced by the GD post), but I know we can make something good of it.

where you people can analyze guns all fucking day long.

I own guns and have CC license but I don't come to DU to discuss gun self defense.

There are other forums for this.

can't stay out of a forum that has no interest to you? Why not develop some self discipline and learn to ignore points of view that you disagree with?

If it is unneeded than it will be very obvious - if it gets as many regular posters as Bansalot than it is obviously not silly or unneeded.

If there is no harm (besides offending certain sensitive souls) and you don't really care, why not have a SD group?

I consider about 90 percent of internet forums silly and unneeded. So I don't read them.

DU would be a place to host one outside of sites where repubs participate as their self defense discussions only seem to be about how to defend yourself from non-white, non-rich people and of course, taxes.

I'm not longing for a SD group here, but I could care less if it's added and I can choose to read or not read it.

a "EBay, Collectors, Flea Market & Antiques" group? Because there is interest.

Why do so many think self defense=guns?

I find a DU with four gun groups to be an interesting transformation.

I'm indifferent to the value of the group - I tend to avoid gun conversations - but I find this an interesting contradiction.

major changes regarding self-defense. What are the roles of pepper spray? Is it legal where you are? If one has a knife, how is it legally carried? Is it an automatic (switch), does it have two edges? Is there a better way to be self-aware when walking the streets plugged into an on-line music subscription? How can people in wheel chairs better defend themselves? Are the number of robbery attacks increasing or not? Related to this is how the cashless economy may be causing violent crims to reconsider their target opportunities? Do thugs "case" in-store ATMs and mark users for off-premises attacks? Then there is the whole sphere of SD in your home, esp. if one has no gun. Superior doors and windows, home modifications, safe rooms, remote cameras which "talk to you" when someone is spotted on your lawn, how to read your pet's behavior?
In cars with auto-locks, when is the best time to use the remote? Can one temporarily disable a remote or even the ignition once the car is jacked? What are the best procedures (if any) for picking up hitch-hikers? What are the dangers of giving one a lift, but asks for you to stop off at a convenience store (can we say "sucker getaway driver?".

There's a lot more before anyone even gets around to arguments over holsters.

The rest? I dunno.

Which is why I stay out of both gun and knitting discussions. I get that there are people who have a fascination about all things knitting, and might get upset when someone suggests that their favorite kinds of yarn are not safe/culturally or environmentally sensitive/sending inappropriate messages...

but my reaction to those conversations is generally bemusement.

"How about we talk about self defense?" to "OMG NO GUNNNNNNNZZZZZZ OMG."

that I found unusual. But this is DU, after all, and some have found a hobbyhorse.

And we're the ones that are obsessed?

Go over to www.freerepublic.com for that kind of discussion.

Discussing self defense is only for those on the right?

Fuck.That.

Incidentally, the originator of the idea of a safe haven to discuss self defense, said this:



Thank you for providing an example of what would and should be blocked from such a potential safe haven group.

I generally don't pay a lot of attention to that so I hadn't even noticed lol.


Thank you.

you seem well versed on what goes on over in that cesspool.
Something to ponder......................

discussion on a site ran by a guy that calls himself "rimjob".
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Rimjob
As the Meat Loaf song goes, "I won't do that".
That's like expecting Wayne's World explaining the politics of FGFC820's lyrics or finding Masterpiece Theater on MTV.

about anything on a poorly designed web site ran by a guy who calls himself rimjob?
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Rimjob

Isn't that like expecting to find Masterpiece Theater on MTV?

1). The inevitable objection to and censorship of pictures of guns, called "gun porno" by some.

2). A welcoming atmosphere for ALL DUers who are interested in self-defense, whether or not they have guns or ANY weapon.

3) Discussions of philosophical differences between pacifism and non-violence, including reconciling Gandhi's notion of Not harming others, but nevertheless reacting to attacks as a Duty.

4). Making clear what kind of personal attacks and disruptions are objectionable.

5). Sharing resources which aid in a victim's recovery.

If anyone has a better approach to this, please weigh in.

While there is no single means of self defense, posters in this group are expected to be supportive of self defense regardless of the means.

This doesn't really fit the SoP of the Group, but I let it bounce around a while because a Self-Defense Group would have some overlap with this one.

There is enough info here and in SecMo's self-deleted thread for the Admins to get a feel for things.

Regards,
Krispos42, Group Host