Gun in hand, 68 year old woman saves boyfriend in attack

[Kang Colby]

This is a typical defensive gun use (DGU). No shots were fired, and no one was killed. I'm sharing this one because it's a more common DGU than the one I posted this morning. I think it's worth discussing.

When she realized Steve Miller — her boyfriend of nearly 13 years — was being beaten in the head by their intoxicated neighbor over leaves on his Macomb Township property, she grabbed her .38-caliber revolver and ran outside.

La Rose said if Ficht would have taken a step toward her, she would have fired fearing her life was in danger.

But he didn't, La Rose said, instead retreating to his home where he was later arrested by Macomb County Sheriff's officers.

She said Miller's skull was fractured, causing an arterial bleed. He is awake and talking, but needs help walking. He is having some problems with his hearing. He hasn't started rehabilitation yet and his prognosis is unknown, but recovery is expected to take a long time and it's unknown if he will be able to work again, she said.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/11/09/gun-hand-woman-saves-boyfriend-leaf/75488284/

[VanillaRhapsody]

1. should we just start posting every single gun fatality on that occurs ...on DU?

every single one??? This desperation is tiresome...

[pipoman]

2. SecularMotion got that covered....1

[VanillaRhapsody]

3. EVERY single one?

I doubt it....that's 48 children who are wounded or killed per day...

[beevul]

4. What good would it do you?

We already know that defensive gun use drastically outnumbers firearm misuse resulting in death.

That's not opinion, that's fact, and nothing you say or post will make that fact suddenly disappear.

It appears you just want to silence viewpoints which you disagree with.


Not.Gonna.Happen.

[VanillaRhapsody]

6. Perhaps it would drown out all these desperate posts trying to prove guns

are used so often for self protection....its just very disrespectful of those that have died...just because you think someone is coming for your gun.

[beevul]

8. Nope. It will just strengthen our resolve.

The days of you guys running the show and controlling the dialogue here are over.

[VanillaRhapsody]

10. "running the show"

Go hide behind the NRA! They will protect you from the truth!

[beevul]

14. I don't need to hide behind anyone.

I can handle anti-gun folks all by my lonesome, with very little effort expended. Your impotent outrage and ridiculous hyperbole are all the evidence of that, that anyone needs.

You don't show any evidence of even being able to debate the gun issue, which is a win for me, by default.

[VanillaRhapsody]

15. apparently you do...you are afraid of us "running the show"

go pull out statistics spoon fed to you from the NRA!

and what is tiresome...is this limp attempt to prove that guns are sooo wonderful why they "save more lives"...its pathetic! And so easily provable false to anyone that isn't feeling so "unpowerful"

[beevul]

18. Apparently I don't.

I haven't cited any sources in this thread what so ever.

You on the other hand, have cited a source which relies heavily on the VPC, which is not a credible or an accurate source, and even many anti-gun folks admit that.

Besides, you're the one posting in rage at a self defense firearm use.

Bzzt. Try again.

[beevul]

19. Duplicate. N/T

[Brickbat]

87. "its just very disrespectful of those that have died"

You'd rather see posts about people shot and killed so you can uphold a narrative? That seems...disrespectful.

[VanillaRhapsody]

88. Yes it is....every 4.4 days another toddler dies...

Its disgusting......and despicable and if you had any decency you would be ashamed.

May you never face the gunshot death of your child or grandchild.....just to have it rubbed in you face by "enthusiasts" who pretend to believe guns are used for defense more often than it costs them....

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

By the way....my 15 yr old cousin died cleaning a gun his "responsible gun owning father" meant to get rid of because it kept misfiring....he bled out in his fathers lap on the way to the hospital....

[GGJohn]

93. Sorry to hear about your cousin.

Here's the thing, children die every single day of many things, yet you choose to dwell on children that die by firearms and lambast firearm owners who had nothing to do with those deaths.
How about the other children that die by other means? Like auto accidents? Poisoning? Drowning?

[VanillaRhapsody]

94. and you posts DEFENDING those deaths...

by pretending guns protect more lives than they take...

disgust me....and its disrespectful of the dead.

He was 15 yrs old!

and NO you are not SORRY at about his death at all...if you were...we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[GGJohn]

95. What a lie.

Just because I defend my right to keep and bear arms in no way is it defending the deaths of those children.
What's disgusting here is your lying about what we think.

[VanillaRhapsody]

96. its the truth and YOU know it!

I defend your right to a musket and musket balls. Go get one of those...

every 4.4 days....another BABY...not a 15 yr old....a TODDLER dies....

and this posting of every imaginable dgu to defend it...is despicable.

and you DARE tell me you are sorry for my cousin's death.....what a horrible lie!

[GGJohn]

97. Well, then, if you're going to go that route,

then I defend your right to post via quill pen and ink, which were used the same time as the musket and musket balls.

Funny how you dwell on just those children that die by firearms but don't say word one about the other children that die by other means.

Can you say hypocrite?

[VanillaRhapsody]

98. Yeah...but quill and ink...

isn't killing another baby every 4.4 days!

How many babies are dying of bullet holes in Australia these days?

[GGJohn]

99. Really?

GWB's ink pen sure did a bang up job of killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians, including untold numbers of Iraqi children.

How many children are dying every day due to auto accidents? Of drownings? Of poisonings? Of diseases?

[VanillaRhapsody]

100. Yes really....

so its the old...But babies die everyday defense????

pathetic....and sickening.

Other countries have done exactly that. Australia enacted a mandatory gun buyback that achieved that goal, and saw firearm suicides fall as a result. But the reforms those countries enacted are far more dramatic than anything US politicians are calling for — and even they wouldn't get us to where many other developed countries are.

Think about it this way. In 2013, the US had 106.4 gun deaths per million people. In 2011, the last year for which we have numbers, the UK endured 146 gun deaths total — or 2.3 gun deaths per million people.

To get to UK levels, we'd need to reduce gun deaths by nearly 98 percent. Even if we wanted to reach the same levels as Finland — another developed country with a relatively high rate of gun deaths — we'd need to drop from 106.4 deaths per million to 35 — more than a 67 percent reduction.

http://www.vox.com/2015/10/5/9454161/gun-violence-solution

Now run along and go find an NRA funded source to tell you otherwise....so you can sleep at night.


meanwhile my cousin...STILL dead!

[GGJohn]

101. Take out the suicides and you have appox 8,000 firearm deaths per year in the US,

which in a country of 320 million, is a miniscule number.
And the UK or Australia are small in population in relation to the US, so your comparing the % to ours is bunk.

Now, go find another VPC/Bloomberg/Brady Org. funded source to tell you otherwise....so you can rant and rave some more.

[VanillaRhapsody]

102. No I wont

because as I just proved....when Australia removed guns.....suicides went down....so yeah..suicides count. Do you know how many teenagers commit suicide by gun for example? NO because you ONLY accept date from NRA funded research...

Guess what...the NRA doesn't care about you (or dead babies)....it cares about GUN Manufacturers!


Plenty of research has found a strong correlation between the amount of guns in an area and its gun homicide rate. Countries with more guns have more gun homicides. States with more guns have more gun homicides. Individuals with guns in the house are likelier to be killed or to kill themselves with guns.

Period...

[GGJohn]

103. And Australia is vastly different culture from the US.

Notice you didn't cite Japan suicide rates.
Japan, where it's virtually impossible to legally own a firearm, has a higher suicide rate than the US, why is that?

[VanillaRhapsody]

104. Yeah...it does now...

And they started out as a penal colony..

shame on you!

Evaluations after the reforms suggest that they saved lives. A study by Andrew Leigh of Australian National University and Christine Neill of Wilfrid Laurier University estimated that buying back 3,500 guns per 100,000 people led to a statistically significant drop in firearm suicides — 74 percent, in fact, with no parallel increase in non-firearm suicides. While gun control opponents have tried to rebut those results, those responses have been riddled with methodological flaws, and even some of the study's critics have conceded that the laws likely cut down on suicides.

BOOM!


But the homicide and mass shooting results are almost beside the point. Nearly two-thirds of gun deaths in the US are suicides. If we can reduce them by 74 percent, we'd be saving more than 15,000 lives every year. That doesn't get us to where most developed countries are, but it gets us in the ballpark of Finland.

[GGJohn]

105. BOOM what?

I never denied that Aus. suicide rates have declined.
Funny how you refuse to address Japan's suicide rate.
Why is that?

[VanillaRhapsody]

107. per capita?

that is the stats I am using....

The fastest growing suicide demographic is young men. It is now the single biggest killer of men in Japan aged 20-44.
And the evidence suggests these young people are killing themselves because they have lost hope and are incapable of seeking help.
The numbers first began to rise after the Asian financial crisis in 1998. They climbed again after the 2008 worldwide financial crisis.
Experts think those rises are directly linked to the increase in "precarious employment", the practice of employing young people on short-term contracts.

Japan was once known as the land of lifetime employment.
But while many older people still enjoy job security and generous benefits, nearly 40% of young people in Japan are unable to find stable jobs..

and you bring up that Australia is a different culture? Japan has no religious edict against suicide...and we all know how important "saving face" is in Asian cultures...

But NO NRA to stand in the way of Japan improving THOSE conditions though!

again shame shame shame...despicable what you will use to defend your position

[GGJohn]

108. Yes, per capita,

Japan's suicide rate is higher than the US, yet in Japan, it's almost impossible to legally own a firearm.

[VanillaRhapsody]

120. Yes and I showed why...

YOU are the one that claimed that Australia had a "different culture"...

there is NO denying that reducing firearms reduces suicides...

[GGJohn]

109. Here you go.

The US has a low rate per capita, of suicides compared to the most of the rest of the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

[VanillaRhapsody]

110. Bullshit...

Suicide rates per country (per 100,000)
Country Total Female Male
Republic of Korea 28.9 18 41.7
Hungary 19.1 7.4 32.4
Japan 18.5 10.1 26.9
Poland 16.6 3.8 30.5
Belgium 14.2 7.7 21.0
Finland 14.8 7.5 22.2
France 12.3 6.0 19.3
Austria 11.5 5.4 18.2
Czech Republic 12.5 3.9 21.5
United States 12.1 5.2 19.4
United Kingdom 6.2 2.6 9.8


notice that last one? That is what is called a low rate...

Now if we took on Guns....we WOULD be in that low rate category wouldn't we?

[GGJohn]

113. Yet Japan, where it's almost impossible to get a gun,

has a much higher rate that the US.
The fact is that those that want to off themselves will find a way to do so, firearm or not.
Better health care would go a long ways towards lowering those numbers.

[oneshooter]

147. In Japan, if a husband killes his wife and three kids, it is nit recorded as a murder/suicide.

It is recorded as five suicides.

[VanillaRhapsody]

148. BOOM!

[gejohnston]

112. actually, they only removed

semi automatic and pump long guns. While the suicide by firearm rate did decrease, the suicide rate didn't other than what was already decreasing. Gun ownership in Australia, and the number of guns is actually higher now than before.

The UK had lower levels when they had no gun control laws at all. If you are using the Home Office numbers, they only count murder convictions.

[VanillaRhapsody]

114. bullshit!

and you and the NRA know that!

like I said...despicable..

[gejohnston]

116. I didn't get that from the NRA

I got that from a Brit academic paper written by a Metro London aka Scotland Yard police official.

[VanillaRhapsody]

118. oh a cop!!!

let me guess....an NRA cop in Scotland yard!

here is a pretty picture for you...

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/10/total_number_of_gun_deaths

[gejohnston]

123. I doubt it

the NRA-UK isn't the same as the NRA here. For one thing, it is about two decades older
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association_of_the_United_Kingdom
At any rate, that is the Home Office policy since 1967. We were talking about murder rates. Some countries have high murder rates, just not with guns. See Russia and Mexico.


That's nice. Russia has almost no gun murders, yet has a higher murder rate as the US. Mexico and most of the island countries in the Caribbean have stricter laws than Australia and the UK, yet have astronomical murder rates. Most of Europe is not as restrictive as the UK, yet have lower murder rates.
New Zealand gun laws, where silencers are unregulated and they really do use ARs for hunting, are not as strict yet have a lower murder rate than Australia.
Iceland, Sweden, Switzerland, Norway, Canada, all have about the same rate of gun ownership as we do, about one in three homes. Finland is about one in two homes.

[VanillaRhapsody]

127. I don't doubt it...

EXACTLY as I said...you DON'T give a shit about the fact the WE have a baby die...every 4.4 days by bullet hole.

This discussion is not about "criminals" (though you seem to be inordinately obsessed with all the "criminals" around you...paranoia will destroy ya)

[JonathanRackham]

106. Cleaning a loaded gun known to mechanically fail?

Sounds like an uneducated irresponsible gun owner. Perhaps the government should sponsor some PSA ads to educate like they do with prescription drug access in the houses with children.

[VanillaRhapsody]

111. Don't we have sooooo many "irresponsible gun owners" in this country???

and THAT is the problem...they ALL think they are "responsible"....

until they aren't!

By the way...it was a hunting rifle that killed my cousin. And again...YOUR reaction is disgusting and despicable.

[JonathanRackham]

115. The system has failed to educate the public.

I see PSAs about aids, texting, DUI, prenatal care, birth control, food safety....

Why not firearm safety?

[VanillaRhapsody]

117. Why not reduce firearms and we reduce gun deaths???

its pretty elementary.

[JonathanRackham]

119. Sounds great.

When will the criminals and gang members start turning them in?

[VanillaRhapsody]

121. When they are more expensive and harder to get!

Have you noticed how quickly smoking has fallen but using regulations?

seems to have worked in Australia...

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/10/total_number_of_gun_deaths

[JonathanRackham]

122. Might take 200 years.

At the rate police and government lose guns only criminals will have guns. The public and government need to be mutually disarmed otherwise a police state will evolve.

[VanillaRhapsody]

125. might...

the journey of a 1000 miles...starts with the first step...and every step could be a saved life.

[gejohnston]

124. Australia has more to do with

their gang bangers being worse shots than here. They are not harder to get between thefts from police, smuggling, and illegal manufacture. Community guns are not that unusual or unique. It has been a fairly common practice in the US. Renting crime guns was a common practice among the urban criminal class in the US 19th century.
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/100-shootings-and-counting-merrylands-tops-driveby-list-20120911-25psc.html

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/06/16/australian-police-10-firearms-seized-homemade/

[VanillaRhapsody]

126. Oh right...you just keep telling yourself that...

because the "firearmblog" tells you so!

utter hogwash! Again...the depths to which you will plunge is despicable...for shame.

[VanillaRhapsody]

9. It DOES NOT!

thats a damn lie!

I wish someone could post a picture of every dead child....just to show you how disgusting it is...

[beevul]

11. Yes, in fact it does.

I eagerly await Kang citing the statistics, and you failing to refute them.

[VanillaRhapsody]

13. I have the facts...

To conclude:

Statistically speaking, guns are rarely used in self-defense, and thus cannot be defended on the grounds that they can reliably defuse crimes while they are happening.

The NRA bases its claim that guns are used millions of times a year in self-defense on a discredited study from 1995 that has not been validated in a single academic paper.

Concealed Carry Laws are not associated with decreases in crime, and sophisticated analyses show that, in some cases, there is an increase in aggravated assaults associated with concealed carry laws.

The best studies to date, using proxies to estimate gun availability, show that more guns lead to more crime.

http://www.armedwithreason.com/less-guns-less-crime-debunking-the-self-defense-myth/

[beevul]

16. Facts from the VPC?

Bzzt. Try again.

[VanillaRhapsody]

20. beats the shit out of yours from the NRA!

[beevul]

21. Except I haven't cited anything from the nra.

You're bringing blanks to a gunfight.

[VanillaRhapsody]

23. Its all you got

Since 1970, more Americans have died from guns than died in all U.S. wars going back to the American Revolution.

[Ghost in the Machine]

84. beevulhasn't cited, nor posted links from, the NRA. YOU, on the other hand,

have cited them plenty of times. Maybe it's YOU that's "hiding behind the NRA"??

YOU seem to be well versed in their indoctination, whereas *I* have never had any use for them. Iwas taught gun safety, and how to shoot, by my Navy Veteran father and an uncle who was an Air Force Fighter Pilot in Vietnam. We also had Hunters Safety and Boaters Safety classes taught in our school each year by the local Game Warden. No NRA needed then, NO NRA needed NOW!

Peace,

Ghost

[VanillaRhapsody]

90. Its where the money comes from and you know it

We are not stupid people...

Follow the money...

[VanillaRhapsody]

24. and...

But the numbers are unarguable: fewer than 1.4 million war deaths since 1775, more than half in the Civil War, versus about 1.45 million gun deaths since 1970 (including suicides, murders and accidents).

If that doesn’t make you flinch, consider this: In America, more preschoolers are shot dead each year (82 in 2013) than police officers are in the line of duty (27 in 2013), according to figures from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the FBI.



if only those 82 children had had a gun of their own to defend themselves!!!

[gejohnston]

26. actually, the NRA might claim that

but the study was never discredited. The only challenger to it was Hemenway who speculated on why the numbers would be high and harped on false positives, but provided no evidence to back up his claims. The Kleck study verifies several previous studies and was verified by later studies including one by Phil Cook. Oh, and the study and resulting book was awarded the 1993Michael J. Hindelang Award from the American Society for Criminology.
Meanwhile, Hemenway was given an award by the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence for his activism.
Have you noticed that none of the studies that claim to debunk that study never appear in peer review criminology journals?

No, I'm not saying the writer at armedwithreason is a liar, just not a critical thinker. His source, VPC, is a liar.

[VanillaRhapsody]

29. No he is not...

prove it!

But the numbers are unarguable: fewer than 1.4 million war deaths since 1775, more than half in the Civil War, versus about 1.45 million gun deaths since 1970 (including suicides, murders and accidents).

If that doesn’t make you flinch, consider this: In America, more preschoolers are shot dead each year (82 in 2013) than police officers are in the line of duty (27 in 2013), according to figures from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the FBI.

see that part about the CDC and the FBI???

[gejohnston]

40. the fact that he gets all of his information

from an advocacy group and treats them as an knowledgeable and objective source without question proves that his critical thinking skills suck. Also, the use of "reason" is like "fair and balanced". If it is part of your advertising, chances are, you aren't.
He proved it himself.

BTW, look up the VPC's director's name and the address for VPC. Then type the numbers not marked with x in the ATF search form for this FFL number
1-54-000-01-8C-00725
https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck/fflSearch.do;jsessionid=5384cc2332937aaacc5ffc4ab2273c7d11d3a68c97b688e973fbe235c667fdca.e34PaNePb3iTb40LbxySah4TbxiTe0

This is what the numbers mean
http://www.gunclubofamerica.com/articles/education/what-you-need-to-know-about-your-federal-firearms-license/

Please tell my, why does the director of VPC, Josh Allen Sugarmann, have a gun dealers license?
It expires in 2017. He has had it for at least ten years.

BTW, your rant isn't relevant to the discussion and probably not true.

[VanillaRhapsody]

12. How about I just give you the truth instead...

http://www.armedwithreason.com/less-guns-less-crime-debunking-the-self-defense-myth/

[DonP]

17. It's been done ... about 8 times and never well or consistently

"Guns in the News", blah, blah, blah various other headings.

The "Cut and Paste Google Dump" of any story that has the word "gun" or "shooting" in it is pretty much covered by a current player who goes back years if they need to for blog posts, old articles, anything they can post to keep their name high on the thread list.

Aside from the fact that this group has an SoP and is about gun laws and RKBA issues, gun control people don't seem to be bright enough to tell the difference between a crime that belongs in the True Crime group like an armed robbery and a gun control/RKBA issue.

What happens is what always happens with control minded folks. They keep it up for a week or so, then they get distracted by a shiny piece of tinfoil or a squirrel and gradually drift away.

Or, as a few have, they get upset when they are contradicted or made fun of, lose it and wind up getting TS'd ... or banned by our host for stepping over the line like another group host was after being a jerk repeatedly to DU members here.

No staying power, kind of like the the hosts in the other safe haven gun group that keep "recommitting" themselves to gun control activism and usually last about 2 weeks before drifting away again.

[VanillaRhapsody]

22. all 48 children a day...

bullshit!

I wish I could list their names here every day!

More children have died in the last couple decades from guns....than all the wars...

[beevul]

25. Boom. You lose.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf
Normally I would not use a VPC report to pick up after my dogs, but since excerpts have been receiving attention I decided to read the report. Specifically the statement that "Guns are rarely used to kill criminals or stop crimes" reasoning that only 259 justifiable homicides vs. 8432 criminal homicides with firearms in 2012.

Yet the title also says "Non-Fatal Self-Defense Gun Use"; I wondered what the report had to say about that...

COMPARING NCVS DATA TO CLAIMS THAT GUNS ARE USED IN SELF-DEFENSE 2.5 MILLION TIMES A YEAR
Using the NCVS numbers, for the five-year period 2007 through 2011, the total number of self protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes totaled only 338,700. In comparison, the gun lobby claims that during the same five-year period guns were used 12.5 million times in self defense (applying to the five-year period the gun lobby’s oft repeated claim, noted earlier, that firearms are used in self defense 2.5 million times a year). {p.7}

Unsurprisingly they found a number far lower than the 2.5 million high end claim. But the total dismissed as "only", 338,700, equates to 67,740 DGUs per year.

It should also be noted that the NCVS number is viewed as an absolute minimum and in the report Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearms-Related Violence said of the NCVS "difficult to interpret because respondents were not asked specifically about defensive gun use" {p. 15}

Comparing this to
TABLE TWO: CIRCUMSTANCES FOR HOMICIDES BY FIREARM, 2008-2012 {p. 10}
Criminal Homicide 42,419
Justifiable Homicide 1,108

or an average of 8,484 criminal homicides per year.

Two conclusions are quickly drawn from comparing VPC numbers.
1. The murderous vigilante meme is fantasy. The number of justifiable homicides is very low in any given year and roughly .327% of DGUs result in fatalities.
2. Guns are often used defensively; 7.98 times more often than used to commit criminal homicide.

Perhaps the statement should be "Guns are rarely used to kill criminals but stop crimes 8 times more often than they are used to murder".

Boom. You lose. Credit to Sarisataka for that bit of eye opening investigation.

Have a nice day.

[VanillaRhapsody]

27. thats fucking bullshit and you know it!

boom indeed...

pathetic "statistics" you have there....so outrageous ANYONE can tell its bullshit!

ridiculous!

[beevul]

31. That which is asserted without evidence, is dismissed without evidence.

The 'that' in this case being your assertion, since you haven't cited anything to back it up, other than being foul mouthed which, contrary to anti-gun dogma, doesn't count.

[VanillaRhapsody]

32. denial is not dismissal

But in 2003, Congress barred the government from publishing such information.

[beevul]

35. Now its congresses fault that you're a poor debater without any reliable source material?

Call congress right fucking now!$%#!#$%^!

[VanillaRhapsody]

37. I am not the poor debater here...

does the NRA control the Republican Congress or not?

Because EVERY Democrat KNOWS that is true!

[GGJohn]

43. LOL.

This is pure comedy gold!!

Do you have any idea of how childish you sound?

[VanillaRhapsody]

47. im the childish one...

I don't live in fear....I'm not a baby!

[GGJohn]

50. Good for you,

neither do I, but you still sound childish.

[beevul]

64. He/she is just fishing for hide.

Totally transparent.

[GGJohn]

76. It's so obvious it's funny.

It's not like we haven't seen this behavior before.

[beevul]

49. You're right, my bad. You aren't debating at all.

You're just fishing for a hide, but you aren't going to get one from me, sorry.

As far as the nra:

The NRA Is Losing Its Grip on Power

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172177455

The NRA Is NOT Relevant Anymore

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022173479

The Myth Of NRA Dominance Part I and II: The NRA’s Ineffective Spending and Overrated Endorsements

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117215392

Because EVERY Democrat KNOWS that is true!

I'll be sure and let your buddies know you think they aren't REAL Democrats.

When you and your buddies actually make up your minds, let me know.

Inquiring minds want to know if you're wrong now, or your buddies were wrong then.

[VanillaRhapsody]

52. hahahahaha Right...

A poll this year found that majorities even of gun-owners favor universal background checks; tighter regulation of gun dealers; safe storage requirements in homes; and a 10-year prohibition on possessing guns for anyone convicted of domestic violence, assault or similar offenses.

We should also be investing in “smart gun” technology, such as weapons that fire only with a PIN or fingerprint. We should adopt microstamping that allows a bullet casing to be traced back to a particular gun. We can require liability insurance for guns, as we do for cars.

It’s not clear that these steps would have prevented the Oregon shooting. But Professor Webster argues that smarter gun policies could reduce murder rates by up to 50 percent — and that’s thousands of lives a year. Right now, the passivity of politicians is simply enabling shooters.

The gun lobby argues that the problem isn’t firearms; it’s crazy people. Yes, America’s mental health system is a disgrace. But to me, it seems that we’re all crazy if we as a country can’t take modest steps to reduce the carnage that leaves America resembling a battlefield.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/04/opinion/sunday/nicholas-kristof-a-new-way-to-tackle-gun-deaths.html?_r=0

[beevul]

56. Whats the matter, subject get uncomfortable and you decided it needed a change?

Or were you just going of on an unrelated tangent by accident?

[gejohnston]

77. I have a question about Mr. Webster

who is in a department funded by Bloomberg,
his papers is referenced in media press releases and etc. What peer review journals have any of his work appeared in? Like say, criminology journals? Were any of them validated? There is no evidence to support any of his claims of what could be based on any known criminal science. BTW, James Bond's custom Walther P99 would be cool. The Lotus Espirit that turns into a submarine in For Your Eyes Only would be nice too. That is where the smart gun idea came from. The insurance idea come from some insurance executive in an article in Fortune or Forbes.
http://www.jhsph.edu/research/centers-and-institutes/johns-hopkins-center-for-gun-policy-and-research/index.html

[VanillaRhapsody]

86. Bunk..

You are so un love....you cannot accept ANY criticism as valid.

[TeddyR]

91. So with respect to the first paragraph

There are a lot of pro-Second Amendment people on here that support those things. I'm all for UBCs and prohibiting felons from owning guns (I assume you are also ok with banning felons from voting - if they can't be trusted with a gun they shouldn't be trusted to pick our leaders). I oppose safe storage laws for the simple reason that they are unenforceable and unneeded. Unenforceable because law enforcement doesn't get to go into someone's home to see if they are complying and unneeded because a person that isn't going to store their gun safely as a matter of commonsense isn't going to comply with this (unenforceable) law. And by the way, I think that most gun owners here will tell you about their safe storage habits. I'm not sure what "tighter regulation on gun dealers" even means - the dealers I know all have to perform background checks so not sure what else you want.

I find the insurance argument to be tiresome -- what exactly is requiring insurance going to do? If the gun is used by a criminal then no insurance company on earth is going to cover the resulting harm. I can't think of a single legitimate reason for requiring insurance and the only reason to do so is to make guns prohibitively expensive.

Who is going to pay for "smart technology"? I hear this from those who favor control but there doesn't seem to be much interest in it. Bloomberg seems to have plenty of money - maybe he should provide the funds for this idea?

[VanillaRhapsody]

92. if the gun is used by a "law abiding citizen" it does....

does having insurance on cars mean NO ONE drives without it?

If your gun is used by a child or in a crime...the OWNER is responsible...

[Kang Colby]

51. Excellent work. I enjoyed reading the exchange. n/t

[DonP]

28. You really need to calm down and find a better source for your claims

Yelling "bullshit" with exclamation points in ever post doesn't make you sound any smarter, just desperate.

Try someplace like the CDC or the DoJ as a source instead of the biased VPC, Brady or Everytown.

And while you're at it define what constitutes a "child" in those numbers for the audience.

That way people might not laugh quite as hard at your claims and stories.

[VanillaRhapsody]

30. How about the CDC and the FBI???

But the numbers are unarguable: fewer than 1.4 million war deaths since 1775, more than half in the Civil War, versus about 1.45 million gun deaths since 1970 (including suicides, murders and accidents).

If that doesn’t make you flinch, consider this: In America, more preschoolers are shot dead each year (82 in 2013) than police officers are in the line of duty (27 in 2013), according to figures from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the FBI.

and here is why YOUR statistics are bullshit:

Daniel Webster, a public health expert at Johns Hopkins University, notes that in 1999, the government listed the gun stores that had sold the most weapons later linked to crimes. The gun store at the top of the list was so embarrassed that it voluntarily took measures to reduce its use by criminals — and the rate at which new guns from the store were diverted to crime dropped 77 percent.

But in 2003, Congress barred the government from publishing such information.

[beevul]

33. None of which has anything to do with defensive gun usage.

The rabbit hole.

We aren't going down it.

Sorry.

[VanillaRhapsody]

36. statistics......you mean the statistics the NRA controlled REPUBLICAN CONGRESS

bars from being made public?

[beevul]

38. Poor you, the world is just so full of facts you disagree with.

If your debate methodology is the best your side has to offer, I think I may add a task or two to my multitasking plate.

[VanillaRhapsody]

42. i know damn well that dgu does not outnumber the deaths

and so do you...

you guy remind me of those out of shape wingers in camo hanging out in a Taco Bell with their assault babies trying to scare somebody

[GGJohn]

46. And now the personal insults.

So typical of the controllers.

[beevul]

53. No. You BELIEVE that that dgu does not outnumber the death.

You can't KNOW something that isn't factually true.

[DonP]

41. My statistics? I didnt cite any, try again

I don't really bother arguing with gun control people much any more. No point in arguing with people that have already lost and won't admit it.

They (gun Control) have proven to be utterly ineffective, impotent and irrelevant to any real world action legislative or judicial. They can't get any Federal legislation passed in over 2 decades and very little state level laws have passed.

They have lost in the courts repeatedly from appellate to SCOTUS.

In the meantime, concealed carry is now in all 50 states with over 12 million permits issued, not counting the carriers in the 5 or 6 (?) states that have now gone constitutional (permitless) carry and most other states continue to loosen their carry laws.

The only real "achievements" gun control can proudly point to is pushing NRA membership to over 5 million dues paying members and making the AR15 the most popular rifle in America now.

All while the violent crime rate continues to drop to half of what it was in the 70's.

[VanillaRhapsody]

44. its coming believe that

[GGJohn]

54. "its coming believe that"

Been hearing that for 20 years, yet firearm laws have been getting more and more liberal, violence, including firearm violence, is at a 20 year low and continuing to decline.

Yeah, it's coming.

[VanillaRhapsody]

55. Oh yea...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/04/opinion/sunday/nicholas-kristof-a-new-way-to-tackle-gun-deaths.html?_r=0

A poll this year found that majorities even of gun-owners favor universal background checks; tighter regulation of gun dealers; safe storage requirements in homes; and a 10-year prohibition on possessing guns for anyone convicted of domestic violence, assault or similar offenses.

We should also be investing in “smart gun” technology, such as weapons that fire only with a PIN or fingerprint. We should adopt microstamping that allows a bullet casing to be traced back to a particular gun. We can require liability insurance for guns, as we do for cars.

It’s not clear that these steps would have prevented the Oregon shooting. But Professor Webster argues that smarter gun policies could reduce murder rates by up to 50 percent — and that’s thousands of lives a year. Right now, the passivity of politicians is simply enabling shooters.

The gun lobby argues that the problem isn’t firearms; it’s crazy people. Yes, America’s mental health system is a disgrace. But to me, it seems that we’re all crazy if we as a country can’t take modest steps to reduce the carnage that leaves America resembling a battlefield.

[GGJohn]

67. ...

A poll this year found that majorities even of gun-owners favor universal background checks; tighter regulation of gun dealers; safe storage requirements in homes; and a 10-year prohibition on possessing guns for anyone convicted of domestic violence, assault or similar offenses.

Most of us here already support these measures.

We should also be investing in “smart gun” technology, such as weapons that fire only with a PIN or fingerprint. We should adopt microstamping that allows a bullet casing to be traced back to a particular gun. We can require liability insurance for guns, as we do for cars.

No problem with investing in smart tech. as long as it's tested in the field by cops to prove it's reliability.

Microstamping doesn't work, it can be defeated too easily by something as simple as a nail file.

Liability insurance for firearms? To what purpose?

[VanillaRhapsody]

68. thats whats coming...

Yes liability...if YOUR gun hits an innocent bystander...YOUR insurance pays for it!

If your gun is stolen...because you didn't secure it properly...YOUR insurance pays the damages!

[GGJohn]

72. LOL.

Well, if this fantasy of yours is what keeps you warm at night, more power to you.

[VanillaRhapsody]

74. fantasy huh?

We will see!

[GGJohn]

75. No, we won't.

[Straw Man]

83. CDC?

Earlier this year, President Obama ordered the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to assess the existing research on gun violence and recommend future studies. That report, prepared by the Institute of Medicine and the National Research Council, is now complete. Its findings won’t entirely please the Obama administration or the NRA, but all of us should consider them. Here’s a list of the 10 most salient or surprising takeaways.

...

7. Guns are used for self-defense often and effectively. “Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year … in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008,” says the report. The three million figure is probably high, “based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys.” But a much lower estimate of 108,000 also seems fishy, “because respondents were not asked specifically about defensive gun use.” Furthermore, “Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was 'used' by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies.”

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/human_nature/2013/06/handguns_suicides_mass_shootings_deaths_and_self_defense_findings_from_a.html

[VanillaRhapsody]

129. The CDC has been prevented FROM making their studies public...

by the NRA owned Republican Congress.

[DonP]

133. Well duh! That post just cited a recent gun control related CDC study ordered by President Obama

Try and stop ranting long enough to actually read the posts that respond to you.

The CDC was banned from producing opinion/propaganda pieces, not from doing research as the Obama ordered study confirms.

The fact that the WH chose to ignore it and you don't like the results doesn't make it any less valid or your opinion amy more relevant.

I'll ask again ...
So, what are you doing/going to do about this moral panic you seem to be afflicted with?

How many gun control groups have you written a check to and joined, how much of your personal time and money have you pitched in to your cause in the last year?

How many town hall meetings have you gone to and spoken up about closing a gun shop or shooting range?

How many petitions have you circulated to repeal the second amendment and/or concealed carry or in your state?

Exactly what have you actually done in the real world to protect all those children you are so concerned about?

Whining and ranting online doesn't count.

[VanillaRhapsody]

134. Well DUH

you are denying it???

http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-07-02/quietly-congress-extends-ban-cdc-research-gun-violence

[DonP]

139. Yes Double Duh!, because you were just shown a recent CDC gun control study!!!!!

Ordered by the White House and publicly published. What part of that don't you get?


Again, what are you actually doing in the real world to support your intense, deeply held beliefs? Impress everyone with your real world actions that support your concerns.

Or are you just like the majority of gun control supporters and can be dismissed as just another online dilletante?

No real world activity, time or money to your cause?

Just talk and rant online and no real world action?

Then again, you folks do have your Nanny Bloomberg to pick up the tab.

[VanillaRhapsody]

140. triple DUH! and I just showed YOU how the NRA runs Congress AND then the CDC

they are NOT allowed to show one that DOES say we should control guns! Thats what they CANNOT produce...


“There is other research that goes on at the CDC that does have to do with guns,” says Zwillich. “There is a National Violent Death Reporting System, which does record the causes of all violent deaths, including in domestic abuse, youth violence, and child abuse. If a gun is the cause, that’s recorded — it’s not like they ignore it entirely. But gun deaths and gun injuries as a public health issue, as Rivara said, are still basically anathema to CDC researchers and anyone who gets CDC funding, which is potentially millions of dollars.”

Many federally funded researchers are afraid how the interpretation of their data might be used — and used against them.

“Congressional prohibition, which was extended in this very vote that we’re talking about with that appropriations bill, prevents the CDC from advocating for any form of gun control,” says Zwillich. “Researchers are concerned that if they report the results of their data publicly and say, for instance, as Fred Rivara found in the ‘90s, that having a gun in the home makes you more likely to be injured than if you don’t have a gun in a home, then they’ll be accused by Congress of breaking the rules and advocating for gun control.”

[DonP]

141. So President Obama made them publish a gun control study he didn't like?

But you cling to the myth that the CDC can't publish any gun death related studies. When there's one right in front of you. Wow, that's some serious density.

Do you seriously think that if the WH had a CDC study that supported them that it wouldn't get out to the press, when one that doesn't did get out?

But thankfully, your opinion is a minority one and way out of the majority for the country as a whole. Heck, you can't even find many other gun control supporters in this thread to back you up.

That's part of why your side can't win on this issue in the courts, legislatures or at the ballot box. And why you can afford to be ignored politically, even with all of Bloomberg's money backing you.

... and probably why you also continue to ignore some basic questions on how serious and politically active you really are about the issue and these "children's/toddlers/babies" (moving target with the descriptions) deaths you decry.

Just another online keyboard warrior with nothing happening in the real world?

[VanillaRhapsody]

142. it wasn't one AGAINST gun control was it?

did you not read the words I said....

I would rather be a keyboard warrior of dead babies....then shameful and despicable person that tries to cover up the wounding and deaths of 10,000 kids a year.

27 a day....another day...another 27 kids with bullet holes!

[DonP]

143. Well, I teach concealed carry classes and use a keyboard too

They're not mutually exclusive. But it does explain why gun control keeps a losing record going.

I'll leave it to you to figure out why violent crime, including crime with guns, continues to fall to record lows with record high gun sales.

So, you sit and type at your keyboard in righteous indignation as your version of activism?

To date I've trained and certified a little over 65 people for concealed carry, about half of them women, most with children at home.

I attend town hall meetings that might be an hour or more away from home to speak out for new shooting ranges, against local town restrictions and loosening Illinois restrictive gun laws.

I go to the range at least 3 times month, usually with friends, family and students; including my Teachers Union daughter and other teachers she works with, as well as my SiL and his firemen friends.

In the meantime you just keep typing away and wishing.

[VanillaRhapsody]

145. another hour goes buy...

another kid with a bullet hole!


You damn skippy I righteously indignant!

Any violent or accidental gun deaths or gun suicides in YOUR family?

Because YOU are scared to live without a "piece" another hour and another bullet hole in a kid.

[beardown]

144. You write this like it's a bad thing.

The repub congress.

You also write about the 4 child deaths a day like that's a bad thing that should be addressed.

Well, the repub congress aided by a huge group of corporate democractic legislators is dismantling the safety net, restricting health care, gutting public education, defunding social security, and eliminating the middle class and living wages. I can guarantee that any one of these attacks on the overall safety net and support system will kill many times more babies than guns. Meanwhile, the democratic party platform supports gun ownership and gun regulations.

If you really care about the babies, you should get on board with the democractic party platform and work with democractic party gun owners to get more democratic legislators elected to reverse these trends and save not only the babies lost to no safety net, but save many gun death babies due to a better overall economic and social equality environment which would help reduce crime and fear and mental health issues.

Railing against guns while ignoring the much larger threat to babies makes you feel better and morally superior. However, not only is it unlikely to reduce gun deaths, but it is certainly abetting the forces that are taking many times the lives of babies than guns do. Aim your passion at restoring democractic party principles the the government and nation. Once that is accomplished, I think you'll find that guns will most likely return to their former status of inanimate objects that need to be handled safely.

[VanillaRhapsody]

152. Yes I do...because IT DOES

What I actually wrote is another TODDLER death every 4 days...and 27 gun deaths and wounded children per day!

If that were a communicable disease we would ALL be in a panic...

I stand by that.

More have died from gun violence than ALL wars put together...

[Straw Man]

151. Really?

The CDC has been prevented FROM making their studies public...

by the NRA owned Republican Congress.

Then how was I able to read/post that one?

[VanillaRhapsody]

153. Yes....because THAT one doesn't make claims AGAINST guns...

those are the ones they are prevented from being presented to the public...

and I can prove it too...

http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-07-02/quietly-congress-extends-ban-cdc-research-gun-violence

[Straw Man]

154. You obviously didn't read the linked article.

Yes....because THAT one doesn't make claims AGAINST guns...

those are the ones they are prevented from being presented to the public...

and I can prove it too...

http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-07-02/quietly-congress-extends-ban-cdc-research-gun-violence

Here it is again:

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/human_nature/2013/06/handguns_suicides_mass_shootings_deaths_and_self_defense_findings_from_a.html

There are plenty of findings in there that are "against" guns. The findings are mixed. That's what you get when you do objective research. Isn't science wonderful?

There is no "ban" on gun research. There is a ban on federal funding for "research" that is agenda-driven rather than objective. The people who are complaining the loudest are the people who lost the meal ticket for their pet cause. The "disease" model for criminal violence is conceptually flawed and serves only to promote the cause of gun control.

[VanillaRhapsody]

34. what do YOU call a child?

have any of your own?

[DonP]

60. Why yes, I was allowed to reproduce, how about YOU?

The VPC considers a "Child" anyone up to and including age 23.

That way it includes gang members and makes the numbers look scarier and gets some less insightful folks all worked up and reaching for their checkbooks.

I believe the CDC defines a child as between 1 - 4 and 4 - 14, but it's not worth my staying up to look up their numbers to respond to an inane claims and vulgar outbursts.

[VanillaRhapsody]

61. You are the one wanting to define a child...

prove it!

Here is what I have...a toddler every 4.45 days DEAD!!!

from the CDC and FBI

[DonP]

69. Prove what? Good night and better luck next time, with your "approach" to discussion you need it

Nobody here buys your VPC cooked numbers and manufactured outage at law abiding gun owners that happen to be Dems every bit as much as you are.

But do let us know when the gun control side ever actually achieves anything in the real world, other than online whining of course.

Otherwise, it's just not worth bothering with.

[VanillaRhapsody]

71. every 4.4 days...another baby DEAD!!!

if the flu was killing that many...we would be in ALL be in a panic!

[DonP]

79. More exclamation points and all CAPS doesn't make you sound any less desperate or foolish

So, what are you going to do about this moral panic you seem to be afflicted with?

How many gun control groups have you written a check to and joined, how much of your personal time and money have you pitched in to your cause in the last year?

How many town hall meetings have you gone to and spoken up about closing a gun shop or shooting range?

How many petitions have you circulated to repeal the second amendment and/or concealed carry or in your state?

Exactly what have you actually done in the real world to protect all those children you are so concerned about?

Whining and ranting online doesn't count.

[beevul]

80. I expect to see a panic induced post by you in GD then...

every 4.4 days...another baby DEAD!!!

if the flu was killing that many...we would be in ALL be in a panic!

(added in case you try to weasel out and edit your post)

I expect to see a panic induced post by you in GD then:

The answer of course is different every year, but on average, there are about 36,000 flu deaths per year in the United States.

http://coldflu.about.com/od/flu/qt/fludeathsperyear.htm

Thats 100 per day on average, which is just a little more than one every 4 or 5 days.

Gee, that's more than ALL gun deaths. I guess you have a new whale to hunt, right?

On edit: Plenty of proof that yours is a moral panic, right there.

[pipoman]

82. yep every one in the same sense that the op posts every single dgu

And at least this op is human enough respond to questions and comments, not so much with the other one..

[Kang Colby]

5. DGUs are much more common by any measure. n/t

[VanillaRhapsody]

7. bullfuckingshit!

Last edited Fri Nov 13, 2015, 01:21 AM - Edit history (1)

and you know that!

48 kids shot a day...

"by any measure...." Yeah if you have Congress...keeping that measure from seeing the light of day...

[GGJohn]

39. My My, someone is very defensive.

[VanillaRhapsody]

45. and i dont need a pea shooter

[GGJohn]

48. Good for you,

neither do I.

[VanillaRhapsody]

58. apparently you need a gun to "defend yourself"

I don't....I am not a chicken!

[GGJohn]

62. Where in this thread did I say that I needed a firearm to defend myself?

You may not be a chicken, and I never accused you of being a chicken, but you sound like a petulant child throwing a temper tantrum because you're not getting your way.

[VanillaRhapsody]

66. And you sound like a typical gunner

that might hang around the Taco Bell dressed in camo....with his baby strapped to his back...hoping soooo hoping to scare someone...anyone...

[GGJohn]

70. Again the insults.

Don't think for one second that we don't see what you're trying to do here, you're trying to get one of us to respond in such a way that will get a hide or a ban, this ain't our first rodeo and you're so obvious.

[VanillaRhapsody]

73. You carry your guns...I carry my insults!

did you get hit?

[GGJohn]

78. That doesn't even make any sense.

Slow down, take a deep breath and

[Kang Colby]

57. False on both counts. n/t

[VanillaRhapsody]

59. really?

you have statistics from the CDC and FBI on that?

If that doesn’t make you flinch, consider this: In America, more preschoolers are shot dead each year (82 in 2013) than police officers are in the line of duty (27 in 2013), according to figures from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the FBI.

[Kang Colby]

63. Link?

[VanillaRhapsody]

65. easy

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/aug/27/nicholas-kristof/more-americans-killed-guns-1968-all-wars-says-colu/

Gunfire deaths

As we did in our previous fact-check, we used a conservative estimate of data from a 1994 paper published by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to count gun-related deaths from 1968 to 1980. For 1981 through 2013, we used annual data sets from CDC. Finally, for 2014 and the first eight months of 2015, we estimated that the number of gun-related deaths were equal to the rate during the previous three full years for which we have data — 2011 to 2013.

We rate the claim True.

[Kang Colby]

81. Let me ask you an honest question.

Do you really feel that it's appropriate to include suicide statistics as part of the "gun deaths" or "gun violence" terminology that's now so popular with gun control advocates? Look at Japan and several other countries with bans or heavy restrictions that also have higher suicide rates than in the U.S.

[VanillaRhapsody]

85. Yes I do....

Why wouldnt you ....is a better question....you do know young people do that right?

So should murder-suicide..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141258625

[ileus]

89. Those like DGU ones just serve to reinforce the idea to CC.

[VanillaRhapsody]

128. disgusting...

[Eleanors38]

131. Vanilla, in a hurricane of gun-banner postings of killings, you found a fetid breeze?

Really. The irony would sink an ore freighter.

[VanillaRhapsody]

132. Rather be ironic...

than despicable enough to post these or support it when another baby dies every 4.4 days....

[Eleanors38]

135. I wonder. Is gun-control where good liberals go to hate with impunity?

Seems like that's what the issue is about, really. Finding a moral, acceptable, maybe Christian way to hate and act like other bigots in society, and still maintain a liberal legitimacy.

Well, the "controlled show" (Malcolm X) has ended on DU.

You will see more of these posts in GCRKBA.

Maybe in GD, as special dispensations arise.

[VanillaRhapsody]

136. Nearly 10,000 American children are injured or killed by guns every year

http://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/the-toll-gun-violence-children


that's 27 per day!

another day....another 27 kids harmed by guns...

Ironic huh?

[Eleanors38]

137. "Children under the age of twenty." Really. Why not thirty?

Under age 15, those killed by gun accidents is well below 100/yr. Some data has the number at 62, and falling.

[VanillaRhapsody]

138. why not???

Lets make that number even bigger!

ironic huh?

but then...some people do not give a shit about dead kids...

[Eleanors38]

149. Have a good one, Vanilla!

[VanillaRhapsody]

150. May you loose your fear of living life...

and a few more kids get to live theirs...

[procon]

130. I'm more impressed that the 68 yo lady has a boyfriend! nt

[edgineered]

146. K & R

[louis-t]

155. It doesn't say he 'retreated' because he saw that she was armed.

Gun lovers are allowed to assume that is the reason. Bolsters their case. Yep, a bunch of nut cases waving guns around is saving the world. So tiresome.

[DonP]

156. Yeah, the guy probably had a sudden attack of conscience

Brought on by the sight of a cocked S&W 642.

That kind of second though happens now and then.