Gun control never seems to work-out well for minorities and women. Why is that?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

I saw this in GD and, admittedly, it is from 2008; but the italicized excerpt at the end leapt-out at me --

Plainsclothes cops dont recognize NYPDs highest ranking black officer. Order him out of car at gunpoint

...

Chief Douglas Zeigler, 60, head of the Community Affairs Bureau, was in his NYPD-issued vehicle near a fire hydrant when two plainclothes cops approached on May 2, sources said.

One officer walked up on each side of the SUV at 57th Ave. and Xenia St. in Corona about 7 p.m. and told the driver to roll down the heavily tinted windows, sources said.

What happened next is in dispute.

In his briefing to Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly, Zeigler said the two cops, who are white, had no legitimate reason to approach his SUV, ranking sources said.

After they ordered him to get out, one officer did not believe the NYPD identification Zeigler gave him.

The cops gave a different account:

When one officer spotted Zeigler's service weapon through the rolled-down window, he yelled "Gun!" according to sources who have spoken with the officers.

Both cops raised their weapons and ordered the driver out of the car, sources said.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/queens/plainclothes-officers-trouble-didn-recognize-off-duty-chief-article-1.327540

The police chief was open carrying, as was his legal right but the assumption of the other two officers was that he was a menace.

Tamir Rice was shot and killed while playing with a toy gun.

John Crawford was shot and killed in a Wal-Mart because somebody reported a man holding a gun.

Clarence Daniels was lawfully carrying concealed when he was assaulted.

Those who spread the gunz = fear mantra are getting innocent people hurt and those people are predominantly people of color.

[mikeysnot]

1. good luck with this....

[jmg257]

2. Or not.

"COLORADO SPRINGS — On Halloween morning, Naomi Bettis called 911 to report a man with a long black rifle outside her home. The dispatcher asked her to describe what she saw.

“I couldn’t tell if it was real or not, it being Halloween day, you know,” Bettis recalled, her voice quavering. “But that’s what I told her, and all of a sudden she started saying something about— I don’t remember what they call it— open arms … and she said, you know, we have that law here. And it just kind of blew me away, like she didn’t believe me or something.

In Colorado, as in a majority of states, openly carrying a firearm in public isn’t against the law. So Bettis hung up — only to call back again after the man with the gun opened fire on a bicyclist outside her door.
..."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/11/03/in-colorado-springs-dispatcher-brushed-off-reports-of-a-man-with-a-gun/

[Nuclear Unicorn]

5. Does this 1 story invalidate the 4 instances I cited?

[jmg257]

6. Not sure. Does help show, along with all the other instances of strange people

with guns shooting innocent people, that those who fear gunz and people who have them may have reasons to worry.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

9. When you pass by a liquor store and see people buying alcohol do you have similar thoughts

about people being drunk drivers, domestic abusers and/or rapists?

[jmg257]

11. Me? What thoughts would those be?? Anyway - I would certainly be more thoughtful

and likely more concerned of/by someone carrying a gun, especially openly or in a non-typical venue, then I would them buying beer.

For instance, at a school function we noted someone carrying concealed. I approached the gentleman discretely and had a nice conversation about him being LE and not wanted to leave his piece in the car - made sense to me, and so put our minds at ease.


Although lately there have been a few stories of drunk guys with guns shooting innocent people...hmmm...

[Nuclear Unicorn]

13. "Although lately there have been a few stories of drunk guys with guns shooting innocent people"

I'd wager alcohol is more of a factor than guns -- as long as you're in the moral crusading mood.

[jmg257]

16. Moral crusade?? What moral crusade would that be???

Alcohol was likely a factor.

Of course you realize "drunk guys with guns shooting innocent people" would have been much harder to do if they didn't have guns? True?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

17. And how about all the mayhem caused by alcohol and no gun? You act as it it doesn't exist.

[jmg257]

19. Wow - you are out there - I haven't acted re:: alcohol much at all...

Aren't/weren't we talking about guns??? This IS the RKBA group, right?


Your OP was about GUN fear, no?

You want to talk about alcohol mayhem start a thread and maybe I'll be interested enough.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

20. Yes, the OP is about fear of guns. Particularly the irrational sort.

So, it would involve identifying those instances where the fear of guns becomes irrational. Contrasting concerns over guns with other maladies that affecting society seems fair game.

[jmg257]

21. Well - have at it, then. In the meant time, was it an "irrational fear"

in the Colorado Springs incident?

Do you think the Sandy Hook parents have an "irrational fear" of ARs?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

22. Do victims of drunk drivers, domestic violence and rape have an irrational fear of alcohol?

You're acting as if you're speaking on behalf of the victims of mass shootings but I'm curious to know why you choose guns versus alcohol which cause far more death and suffering.

For example, alcohol kills 4,300 under-aged drinkers annually through over-consumption. That's literally kids drinking themselves to death and it's the equivalent of 165 Sandy Hooks each year; more than 3 such tragedies a week.

That doesn't account for the other ways in which alcohol impacts children.

What, then, is the rationale for your crusade that we should create an environment in which people -- particularly people of color, as mentioned in the OP -- are subject to arrest, assault or even summary killing for doing nothing harmful?

[jmg257]

23. Again - WHAT crusade are speaking of???

You keep using that term, and I have no idea why.

Anyway - I am not trying to speak on behalf of anybody other then myself. I told you what those thoughts - my thoughts, might be when 'confronted'(?) with armed person - especially under strange circumstances.

Admittedly I may also imagine what other people, especially victims, may be thinking/feeling. Turns out the lady in Colorado Springs was HIGHLY justified in her concern, no? Was her 'fear' irrational?


I am trying to get you to understand that just maybe someone's fear of gunz/people with gunz might be reasonable. And when you consider how quickly 'not doing anything harmful' can turn into very deadly pretty quickly.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

24. Lots of things can turn deadly quickly.

Are you suggesting that you're going on at length in this thread and others just to raise awareness with no legislative preferences as a subtext?

[jmg257]

25. OF course I am!! 1) going on at length - 'cause its an

interesting topic; one in which I don't think I agree completely with the premise, hence the start of the discussion.

2) raise awareness?? By having discussions with people on DU? By seeing or trying to understand others points of views? Not sure what you are getting at here. LOL - Certainly would NOT call it a crusade!!

3) Hmmmm...as for "legislative preferences", I tend to offer up very little when it comes to "preferences". Oh, of course I have notions on what may be effective legislation depending on the goals of such legislature. And what is/is likely bullshit. BUT - that doesn't mean I agree/disagree with it/them, or the people who propose such regulations.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

26. Then it seems there isn't much substance to your posts.

You will probably deny it but you come off as accusatory and adversarial. You sound like all the other axe-grinders to venture in here over the years. Some professed agendas, others swore they had no agenda but they all shared the penchant for acting as if the misdeeds of others were the moral responsibility of those who maintain their rights.

[jmg257]

28. Well that sucks. I see myself as one who doesn't just accept most things at their face value.

Last edited Tue Feb 23, 2016, 02:05 PM - Edit history (2)

I often love digging a bit deeper (if interested). And one who can often see reason in the opinions/thoughts of others....whether I agree with them or not.

I think I would indeed deny being accusatory, but adversarial? - likely - too many here want to jump into an argument with pre-conceived notions of whom they are arguing with just because that person might not agree 100%, or may see some things differently.

I have no agenda (hard to imagine that I guess) other then to discuss things I am interested in....guns, et. al. primarily, and constitutional history. Very interesting those.

The misdeeds of others is something we have seem to have little control over in a free society (besides incarceration etc.) , particularly when those misdeeds are of a 1st time occurrence.

[jmg257]

30. Oh - and no, I wouldn't feel victims of violent drunken behavior to be irrational.

Just the opposite - they have justifiable grounded reasons to fear its affects.

[scscholar]

27. Why did you not arrest him?

Sounds like he's insane. Insane.

[jmg257]

29. He was a LEO. (and I at the time was not - which wouldn't have mattered).

[Human101948]

15. Every time I am at the liquor store I see drunks buying the little bottles of Fireball...

that they then cosume as soon as they return to their cars. Then they drive.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

18. But there are laws against that.

[Human101948]

3. This is a story about racism and police who are too eager to shoot...

and possibly a bit paranoid as well--

'War on police': Line-of-duty deaths rise amid racially-charged rhetoric, anti-cop climate

...Although official 2015 numbers are not yet available, the current year has seen a spate of high-profile police killings, including last week's murders of two police officers during a traffic stop in Hattiesburg, Miss., and the shooting of an NYPD officer in Queens, N.Y. on April 22.

Safir says that the national mood over the past two decades has emboldened many criminals.

“As criminals see the police restrained by new laws, policy and regulations that restrict tactics like "stop and frisk" or "broken windows," they no longer fear the police and certainty of arrest,” Safir said. “While in the past, they would not carry their weapons because of fear of arrest, they now do, and therefore the opportunity for armed confrontations with police significantly increases.”

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/05/17/war-on-police-line-duty-deaths-rise-amid-racially-charged-rhetoric-anti-cop.html

All debunked, of course.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

4. Where in this thread or any other have i claimed LOD deaths and anti-police rhetoric

were on the rise?

[Human101948]

7. Your paranoia showing there...

I said the police were too eager too shoot and cited one of the reasons why--they believe they are targeted by bloodthirsty blacks egged on by Black Lives Matter.

Police have always believed that they are in the most mortal danger despite the fact that their are at least a dozen profession that are much more deadly.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

8. Were anyone to try and claim these incidences were based on heightened police vigilance I would say:

I don't think BLM had the prominence to be relevant in the Zeigler, Rice and Crawford incidences. Considering the article from the OP was from 2008 and BLM didn't really come to national attention until a few years ago. I think it would be a fair characterization to say BLM is a response to shootings by police, not that police shootings are a response to BLM.

And Daniels was assaulted by a civilian.

So, in return to the subject of the OP, I submit that efforts to demonize people who are lawfully carrying, open or otherwise, will disproportionately and unfairly impact minorities and women.

[jmg257]

10. Why women? Why do you think they will be impacted disproportionately? nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

12. It has been my experience over the years that when the subject

of women being able to defend themselves has come up the general sentiment among the control crowd has been that if a woman cannot meet a man on equal or better terms without a gun that is her problem.

[jmg257]

14. Ah got it. Ha - they should talk to my sister and sister-in-law!

They definitely chose to take a more...self-responsible method.
I don't think they made their decisions lightly.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

31. As usual the pro-control folk have it backwards n/t