Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumAre there any rights that the people as a body enjoy that individuals do not?
In another thread a poster is trying to make the case that the people as a body have the right to keep and bear arms while individuals do not.
Of course this position has been refuted by all nine Supreme Court Justices and by President Obama.
But I challenged the poster to try to list any other right that the people as a body have that individuals do not have.
What do you think? Are there any actions the people as a body have a right to undertake that individuals cannot?
TexasProgresive
(12,730 posts)Freedom of assembly.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)with whom they associate.
Atypical Liberal
(5,412 posts)In our local Occupy protest there were not enough people to occupy the site 24-7, so some people like me worked shifts alone.
I also have the right as an individual to peaceably assemble to protest my government for them to address grievances.
Jumping John
(930 posts)Atypical Liberal
(5,412 posts)Individuals also have that right, as they can choose whom to associate with.
safeinOhio
(37,651 posts)The XXVI Amendment gives the right to vote to citizens 18 years of age and over. An 18 year old, or member of that group, has a right that a 17 year old individual does not.
Lots of Sections in Article I give certain rights to groups of elected officials, like compensation (Sec 6). Sec 8 gives congress the right, as a body, to lay and collect taxes.
The right to declare war is left to the greater body and not for the individual to undertake.
Atypical Liberal
(5,412 posts)These are just laws that apply to certain groups of people. But it does not grant any rights to a group that are superior to any individual also in that group.
TupperHappy
(166 posts)the Constitution recognizes and protects existing Rights, it does not grant Rights.
Also, the sections in Article I are Powers, not Rights. The ability to declare war is a Power of Congress, not a Right. Governments do not have Rights, only Powers delegated to them by the People.
DWC
(911 posts)Group Rights are the result of individuals exercising their right to join together in common cause and / or common purpose.
Semper Fi,
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)Qualified individuals have the right to join the group if they so desire.
Atypical Liberal
(5,412 posts)slackmaster
(60,567 posts)That's the whole point of class actions.
Atypical Liberal
(5,412 posts)I'm trying to see if there are actions that groups can take that individuals cannot take.
TPaine7
(4,286 posts)According to the Declaration of Idependence, the Creator endows individuals with rights and government exists to secure those rights.
The primitive model is that kings or overlords or rulers or governments are the ultimate arbiters of rights and dole them out as they see fit.
There is always tension between these positons. There are many people who naturally gravitate towards the ancient model--it's probably hard-wired genetically like the pecking order.
In trying to reconcile the reptilian ideal--might makes right--with modern democracy, the attempt is sometimes made to pervert the US system into "all rights are inherent in crowds or mobs."
Undoubtedly, "the people" considered as a group, has more power than any individual. And undoubtedly the Framers, in speaking of the practicalities of juries and of governance and of national and regional defense spoke of people acting collectively. But the Framers, despite their focus on practicalities that required collective effort, never intended that the right to bear arm be constrained to collective action.
The idea that all rights are collective is just a variant on the primitive system. It simply substitutes the population for the king or overlord.
There are things that people cannot do alone as a practical matter. Our system sees serving on a jury and electing an official as among these. Also as a practical matter, I cannot assemble alone.
These are practical technicalities. Multiple minds are more able to consider a case from all angles than any single mind. To allow one citizen to select a president is to deny all other citizens the right to participate in self-governance. And it is utterly impossible to assemble alone due to the nature of the activity.
If it were possible to assemble by yourself, you would have a right to do so. If you found yourself alone on earth, you would have a right to elect the president of the world--by yourself.
On the other hand, rights are not the consequence of practical technicalities. If I murdered you, it would be a violation of your rights whether we were in the middle of a crowd in New York City or on a remote planet millions of light years from another human being.
People who oppose the right to keep and bear arms like to bring up assembly as if the fact that no one can assemble alone is due to some profound constitutional principle, as if it somehow proves that rights of "the people" are collective. That is simply wrong. If it were possible to assemble by yourself, you would have a right to do so and that right would be protected by the Constitution.
iverglas
(38,549 posts)That would be the right that the people of the US exercised when they had that revolution thing.
The right of self-government. A society can organize the methods by which it governs itself however it chooses, voting by members being the most popular these days.
An individual trying to hold a revolution, or an individual trying to vote when no election is being held, is pissing in the wind.
When an individual votes, they are exercising the collective right of the people in question to govern itself. There may also be a formal right to vote, a civil right assigned to members of the society as individuals.
An individual using a weapon to defend their society, whether against internal or external forces that seek to usurp power over that society and thwart its collective will, is exercising the collective right of the people in question to determine its present and future. There could also be a formal right to possess weapons, again, a civil right assigned to members of the society as individuals.
No one suggests that the right to vote is some independent, fundamental, individual right that exists absent an organized process for the exercise of the collective right of self-government.
Similarly, where there is an individual right to possess weapons for the purpose of exercising the collective right of self-determination, that does not mean that there must necessarily be any other individual right to possess, or do anything else with, any weapon in particular.
Switzerland and its militia would be an example of individuals possessing weapons for the purpose of exercising the collective right of self-determination.
Why so many people want to disregard the express reference to the militia in the US Constitution, well, who knows? The entire second amendment is completely obviously about the collective rights of self-determination and self-government ("the security of a free state"
.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)But the Swiss also own personal weapons aside from their militia issue pistols and assault rifles.
To answer your question, too many USAmericans tend to think a decentralized militia only worked with flintlocks but not with tanks, fighter planes, etc. They tend to think a standing army is needed in the 20th and 21st centuries. The Swiss show us that this is not the case. Standing armies (along with oversized navies and air forces) are needed for empires, but not for self-determination. Too many USAmericans, regardless of how they interpret the 2A, don't realize that.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,764 posts)I hope your recovery is proceeding well.
iverglas
(38,549 posts)Fifth trip to hospital last week -- four weeks post-break, two weeks post-surgery -- xrays showed everything in place, got the staples out of the surgery incision (owww), got my fourth cast, and they sent me home with an appointment for three weeks thence. That will be five weeks into the six weeks from surgery of zero weight bearing. So until then, I bumble around the ground floor of the house in the rented wheelchair, still contemplating whether a walker is a good idea (build up those arm muscles!) or would just be tempting fate.
It all makes one appreciate the whole accessible design thing, not to mention universal health insurance! This will end up costing me about $50 in various prescriptions, a couple of hundred in taxi fares, $45 for the medically-necessary ambulance, and about $100 for the wheelchair for two months. And of course the $750 premium I paid last year (it's a sliding scale and most people pay less in Ontario) and whatever other part of my taxes goes for this stuff. Not a bad deal.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,764 posts)Enviable service also. While a wheelchair here would be a $40/month copay, what I pay for insurance is far higher.
Best regards.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)The people also have the right to exact retribution and punish those individuals.
The entire criminal justice system is based on both the rights of the people and the rights of the individual, which are often out of sync with each other.
Kennah
(14,578 posts)Charging a person with a crime isn't the right of people, it's the right of the state.
If this were an individual right, Dubya would be in custody.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Government is elected and appointed to represent the people and, as such, has certain rights not enjoyed by individuals. The right to arrest, detain, try and punish lawbreakers, is a right reserved for the people, as a whole, and is administered by the appropriate judicial authority.
Kennah
(14,578 posts)discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,764 posts)...has "powers" not rights.
US Constitution, Bill of Rights, 10 Amendment:
Declaration of Independence:
From my perspective, humans have natural "rights" which are attributes of their humanity. From the basic Natural rights listed in the Declaration certain interpersonal or social rights are derived such as the right to own property. Due to the legal system, set up by convention among the people, Amendments 4 through 9 derive from a just respect for the natural rights to life and liberty.
Criminal investigation, arrest, trial and punishment are duties performed by the government by the exercise of its just powers in respect for the rights of individuals.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)The question in the OP was
"Are there any rights that the people as a body enjoy that individuals do not?"
I still maintain that the state and the "people" are one and the same for the purpose of this discussion. OJ was tried by the People of California. The people exercised their right to put him on trial. He exercised his right to due process. The jury exercised it's right to acquit. And we all exercised our right to say WTF.
Where did that hour go again?
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,764 posts)Daylight Time: It's a tax. Except for the good citizens of Arizona who've rejected it, we have surrendered an hour of our time plus the cost of making the change twice a year to the government. No one "gets" that time, it is just gone. We do, in the Fall "get back" another (somewhat less valuable) hour. In the mean time some of us benefit from the adjustment of having dawn and dusk delayed an hour. It is merely a tax on all which benefits a few.
Rights: In considering the rights of individuals, there are no rights inherent to a collective not derived from the rights of and dependent on the participation of individuals. Therefore, there are no collective rights that are not basically individual. OJ was tried by a court as it was charged with the duty to do so. An investigation into the crime was undertaken out of respect for the right to life of all individuals and in light of the victim's right to life being infringed. While OJ participated in his own defense his right to due process was respected by the government. Proper procedure was followed. The jury's duty is to return a verdict. That "WTF" at the end comes under freedom speech and is also individual.
Have nice "dai". (I realize dai isn't exactly 1/24th shorter than "day" but you get the idea.)
appal_jack
(3,813 posts)We the People have constituted a government to exercise those limited powers and privileges (note: NOT rights) which are necessary for society to function. Those powers are enumerated and also circumscribed in the US Constitution.
Rights are always individual. Groups of individuals can exercise rights concurrently and collectively, but they are still individual rights.
One privilege of government (sometimes described as a right) is the exclusive use of offensive force to preserve and execute its legitimate authority. We individuals have the right to defend our persons and property from imminent threat, but not to attack others.
-app
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,764 posts)...the last time I had a related discussion, some folks were not on the same page as their definitions tended to differ.
From my perspective, no, all rights are inherent in each individual.
Kennah
(14,578 posts)In Verdugo-Urquidez, 1990, the SCOTUS stated that "the people" are the same people in the First, Second, Fourth, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments.
http://laws.findlaw.com/us/494/259.html
Atypical Liberal
(5,412 posts)discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,764 posts)thanks
Kennah
(14,578 posts)It goes into the Militia Clause, history of the Militia and the various components of it, the National Guard, and even The Dick Act.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,764 posts)also a good read