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Sat Aug 10, 2019, 10:35 AM

James Madison and his thoughts

Madison was very involved with the writing of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights including the Second Amendment.

We have 2 well documented historic facts:
1: The 1790 census listed the number of free white males (as offensive as that may be right now, those were the qualifications for the militia) as 807,094.
https://www.nationalgeographic.org/media/us-census-1790/

2: Federalist #46, written by Madison concerning the militia versus a federal standing army states: "The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence...Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of."
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed46.asp

The rational logical conclusion here is that the folks who wrote and ratified the Bill of Rights intended to have the folks who were allowed to vote also be armed with the regular arms with which an infantryman would be equipped.

For about a hundred years semi-auto firearms have become more common and are now most popular and the standard for both rifles and handguns. Full-auto firearms became available at hardware and sporting goods stores around 90 years ago. Full-autos like the Thompson SMG and all full-auto weapons now have heavy federal and state restrictions and expanded expensive requirements for ownership. Firearm laws in the US have been evolving ever since the states had their own governments in 1776. Laws of various types have been passed and found acceptable. Even the Heller Supreme Court decision acknowledges that the states may restrict guns with reasonable laws. Many states have historically had restrictions on concealed carry. Some states have restrictions on open carry. Some states have their own assault weapon restrictions.

If you are thinking that the right to keep and bear arms is not an individual right and the interpretation that says that it is an individual right is an invention of late twentieth century lobbyists, think again.

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Reply James Madison and his thoughts (Original post)
discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2019 OP
jimmy the one Aug 2019 #1
discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2019 #2

Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Original post)

Sat Aug 10, 2019, 11:40 PM

1. a half million militiamen were not voting

dscnt/irony, citing madison: To these [standing army turned tyrannical} would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence..

Thanks dscnt/irony, when did you switch to the militia interpretation point of view?

dscnt: The rational logical conclusion here is that the folks who wrote and ratified the Bill of Rights intended to have the folks who were allowed to vote also be armed with the regular arms with which an infantryman would be equipped.

The flaw in your contention is that only landed gentry & wealthier folk were allowed to vote circa 1792, which only comprised maybe 2% to 5% of total population, maybe 10% of white males. If this were as you say, you'd fall well short of madison's dream of a half million militiamen.
So, with your census figure of ~800,000 free white males that would mean just about 80,000 voters, which is pretty close to the number who voted for GWashington 1792, which was ~100,000 (GW got nearly 100% of the vote btw). The 100,000 is an estimate since popular votes were not recorded until about 1820s.

1787 No federal voting standard—states decide who can vote
U.S. Constitution adopted. Because there is no agreement on a national standard for voting rights, states are given the power to regulate their own voting laws. In most cases, voting remains in the hands of white male landowners.
1789 George Washington elected president. Only 6% of the population can vote.

https://a.s.kqed.net/pdf/education/digitalmedia/us-voting-rights-timeline.pdf

The civic duty to belong to a well regulated citizens militia circa 1792 was not restricted to voters, but to the whole age eligible white male citizenry. Quelle surprise.

dscnt: The rational logical conclusion here is that the folks who wrote and ratified the Bill of Rights intended to have the folks who were allowed to vote also be armed with the regular arms with which an infantryman would be equipped.

'Regular arms' which regular army infantrymen were equipped, were basically single shot muskets, which comprised 80% of the firearms used by america during the rev-war, the rest being largely single shot pistols or single shot slow loading rifled muskets or early rifles. Had the founding fathers envisioned modern firearms they would never have let them be unregulated, no sane person would.

dscnt: Madison was very involved with the writing of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights including the Second Amendment.

For the purposes here you could've just written 'madison who wrote the 2nd amendment'.
Are you still on a learning curve, dscnt?

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Response to jimmy the one (Reply #1)

Sun Aug 11, 2019, 07:32 AM

2. Oops

Maybe you're right and I was wrong.



You know, I do kinda feel sorry for you guys. But I'm just not sure which is more unfortunate, having to feel that your freedom depends on what others can't do or having to experience liberty by reading about it.

It's cheap to join any group. Being yourself takes everything you have.

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