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Mon Sep 2, 2019, 02:15 PM

AR-15 inventor's family: "Meant to be a military weapon." "He'd have been horrified and sickened."

AR-15 Inventor's Family: This Was Meant to Be a Military Weapon

the family of the inventor of the AR-15 rifle says that the gun was not intended for civilian use but for military purposes.

“Our father, Eugene Stoner, designed the AR-15 and subsequent M-16 as a military weapon to give our soldiers an advantage over the AK-47,” the Stoner family told NBC News. “He died long before any mass shootings occurred. But, we do think he would have been horrified and sickened as anyone, if not more by these events.”

https://time.com/4371452/orlando-shooting-ar-15-military-civilian-family/



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Reply AR-15 inventor's family: "Meant to be a military weapon." "He'd have been horrified and sickened." (Original post)
sharedvalues Sep 2019 OP
PoliticAverse Sep 2019 #1
flamin lib Sep 2019 #4
oneshooter Sep 2019 #7
sharedvalues Sep 2019 #8
discntnt_irny_srcsm Sep 2019 #9
wasupaloopa Sep 2019 #27
yagotme Sep 2019 #30
discntnt_irny_srcsm Sep 2019 #44
guillaumeb Sep 2019 #2
IronLionZion Sep 2019 #3
flamin lib Sep 2019 #5
Lokilooney Sep 2019 #10
friendly_iconoclast Sep 2019 #11
Marengo Sep 2019 #13
friendly_iconoclast Sep 2019 #14
friendly_iconoclast Sep 2019 #15
yagotme Sep 2019 #25
discntnt_irny_srcsm Sep 2019 #6
Marengo Sep 2019 #12
friendly_iconoclast Sep 2019 #16
Marengo Sep 2019 #17
Straw Man Sep 2019 #18
samir.g Sep 2019 #19
Straw Man Sep 2019 #20
wasupaloopa Sep 2019 #28
jpak Sep 2019 #21
Straw Man Sep 2019 #22
jpak Sep 2019 #23
discntnt_irny_srcsm Sep 2019 #24
Straw Man Sep 2019 #26
jpak Sep 2019 #29
yagotme Sep 2019 #31
jpak Sep 2019 #32
Straw Man Sep 2019 #34
Straw Man Sep 2019 #33
ManiacJoe Sep 2019 #35
jpak Sep 2019 #36
ManiacJoe Sep 2019 #37
jpak Sep 2019 #38
ManiacJoe Sep 2019 #39
jpak Sep 2019 #40
ManiacJoe Sep 2019 #41
Straw Man Sep 2019 #43
Straw Man Sep 2019 #42
oneshooter Sep 2019 #45
jpak Sep 2019 #46
oneshooter Sep 2019 #47
jpak Sep 2019 #48
friendly_iconoclast Sep 2019 #49
discntnt_irny_srcsm Sep 2019 #50

Response to sharedvalues (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2019, 02:23 PM

1. The AR-15 Stoner invented became the M16. It was an automatic weapon (i.e. a "machne gun").

The current gun called the AR-15 is semi-automatic and doesn't differ significantly from a host of other semi-automatic guns except perhaps it's customizability.

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Response to PoliticAverse (Reply #1)

Mon Sep 2, 2019, 05:11 PM

4. And it doesn't differ significantly from the current M4 issued to military personnel.

The M4 allows 3 rounds to be fired with a single trigger activation, an AR 15 only one. Two rounds per trigger pull. That's it. That is not a significant difference.

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Response to flamin lib (Reply #4)

Mon Sep 2, 2019, 09:19 PM

7. " That is not a significant difference."

Enough difference that one is legal for civilians, the other is restricted to Military/ Police ONLY.

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Response to oneshooter (Reply #7)

Mon Sep 2, 2019, 09:43 PM

8. You're gonna stand on a LEGAL difference?

The same handguns that are legal here are effectively prohibited in Canada (except for at ranges).

So is the same handgun different because two laws treat it differently?

The guns you’re talking about are quite similar.

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Response to sharedvalues (Reply #8)

Tue Sep 3, 2019, 06:10 AM

9. The law doesn't make them different

The law respects a functional difference.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #9)

Sat Sep 7, 2019, 12:00 PM

27. The point is no matter what you call them they

 

are used in mass killings.

I understand the desire to make it hard to write a law banning them.

I carried a M16A1 in Vietnam. They were just being used a few months before I left. I had a M14 before. A M-14 could also be used in a mass killing. But it seems no one has one.

So there needs to be a term or description to use in the law. My idea is to make the law open ended so that it can be made to cover any new attempt to get around it.

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #27)

Sat Sep 7, 2019, 06:46 PM

30. M-14's in civilian form, are M1A's.

Same thing, except no happy switch on receiver. They are out there, but not as plentiful as the AR. Probably too heavy for the perps to carry comfortably.

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Response to wasupaloopa (Reply #27)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 06:33 AM

44. The Virginia Tech asshole used a Glock 19 and a Walther P22.

Is it the best course to outlaw weapons used in famous crimes?

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Response to sharedvalues (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2019, 02:29 PM

2. Recommended.

Fear drives ownership of weapons of mass destruction.

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Response to sharedvalues (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2019, 04:39 PM

3. "Eugene Stoner, an ex-marine and the rifle's inventor, never used his AR-15 for sport"

Eugene Stoner, an ex-marine and the rifle’s inventor, never used his AR-15 for sport, kept it for personal defense, or even owned one. His family said he made millions by using his design, but only for military sales.

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Response to IronLionZion (Reply #3)

Mon Sep 2, 2019, 05:17 PM

5. Stoner also referred to his invention as an assault rifle.

Even the "civilian" AR 15 which was marketed to the Navy for use aboard ship. Ships are made of steel. Bullets bounce around unpredictably in steel enclosures. The Navy did not want full auto weapons in that environment.



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Response to flamin lib (Reply #5)

Tue Sep 3, 2019, 06:22 PM

10. I couldn't find anything in regards to this using our friend the google

Could you provide a link with your source?

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Response to Lokilooney (Reply #10)

Tue Sep 3, 2019, 08:37 PM

11. Don't expect a link to a source- that sort are fond of promulgating "faith-promoting rumors"

As for your interlocutor in particular, I'll just leave these links here:


https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1262&pid=11154

I have a federal firearms license. I daresay that I know more about guns and the relationship between warfare and weapons development than most gun nuts here on DU.

If YOU don't understand the internal mechanisms of assault weapons I suggest that you are too ignorant of the topic to have this discussion.




https://www.democraticunderground.com/1172197860#post19

et seq.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1172191999#post51

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1172197860#post55

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1172197860#post87

et seq.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/12629113#post2

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #11)

Wed Sep 4, 2019, 11:01 AM

13. Here is his dog's breakfast version of the history of the Mosin Nagant...

 

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1172199103#post98

This from a self-indentified expert.

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Response to Marengo (Reply #13)

Wed Sep 4, 2019, 02:51 PM

14. More of that kind of thing, in re the AR-15:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/126211593#post3


3. I'm bookmarking this for future reference

There has never been any real doubt about the AR being an assault rifle. It has been marketed as such from the beginning. It was only after the general public began to recognize it for the threat it is that the NRA launched a major marketing campaign to change the name from Assault Weapon to Popular Sporting Rifle.


https://www.democraticunderground.com/1172199103#post67

Since the NRA discovered that after years of marketing the AR as an assault weapon it was getting a bad reputation among the general public they started a concentrated effort to re-badge the gun as a "popular sporting rifle".


https://www.democraticunderground.com/1172199103#post103


103. Do tell.

"Since the NRA discovered that after years of marketing the AR as an assault weapon it was getting a bad reputation among the general public they started a concentrated effort to re-badge the gun as a "popular sporting rifle". This is a totally and completely new and fictional kind of gun."


How long had they been "marketing the AR as an assault weapon" before 1963, when this ad appeared?





And why was the NRA doing Colt's marketing for them? Do they actually create advertising campaigns for manufacturers, or do they just run the ads for free in the American Rifleman?



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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #14)


Response to IronLionZion (Reply #3)

Sat Sep 7, 2019, 11:47 AM

25. DING DING DING!!! We have a winner!!!

Whoever wrote that didn't know Stoner that well. There are Former Marines. Not Ex. Therefore, the rest of his statement falls into question...

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Response to sharedvalues (Original post)

Mon Sep 2, 2019, 05:24 PM

6. re: He died long before any mass shootings occurred.

Mr Stoner died April 24, 1997

Since these shootings were major crimes and 10 or more people were killed at each one, I'm sure his family is mistaken.
1949 Camden shootings
1966 University of Texas tower shooting
1975 Easter Sunday massacre
1982 Wilkes-Barre shootings
1983 Wah Mee massacre
1984 San Ysidro McDonald's massacre
1984 Palm Sunday massacre
1986 Edmond post office shooting
1991 Luby's shooting

Many firearms were designed for the military and have been used by civilians for legal purposes.

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Response to sharedvalues (Original post)

Wed Sep 4, 2019, 07:12 AM

12. Seems more a case of stuffing words in a dead man's mouth so to speak. The AR-15 has been

 

A available for civilian sales since 1964. He had more than enough time to speak up if he truly felt that way.

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Response to Marengo (Reply #12)

Wed Sep 4, 2019, 03:06 PM

16. I'm willing to listen to his family members- *after* they give away their share of his estate...

Heh.

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #16)

Wed Sep 4, 2019, 03:32 PM

17. Right??? That would certainly be noble gesture establishing their sincerity.

 

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Response to Marengo (Reply #12)

Thu Sep 5, 2019, 12:42 AM

18. Exactly.

He didn't say it when he was alive, but in posthumous hindsight they are eager to assert that he would have done so had he been asked.

I think it's a defensive reaction on their part to the public shaming that is attaching itself to anything AR-15-related.

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Response to sharedvalues (Original post)

Thu Sep 5, 2019, 09:42 PM

19. Stoner should be remembered as a ghoul

His fortune was made off his bloody invention.

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Response to samir.g (Reply #19)

Fri Sep 6, 2019, 01:17 AM

20. Stoner didn't invent the select-fire rifle.

He merely refined and modernized it.

This AR-fetishism is getting absurd.

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Response to samir.g (Reply #19)

Sat Sep 7, 2019, 12:45 PM

28. I used his invention in Vietnam against AK47s

 

It helped me survive.

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Response to sharedvalues (Original post)

Fri Sep 6, 2019, 08:26 PM

21. AR-15 mass murder weapon

Please tell me why this is wrong.

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Response to jpak (Reply #21)

Fri Sep 6, 2019, 11:31 PM

22. Mass murder weapon?

Here's the weapon that was used in the deadliest mass killing to date in the United States:

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Response to Straw Man (Reply #22)

Sat Sep 7, 2019, 07:06 AM

23. Gun nut fail - LOL!

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Response to jpak (Reply #23)

Sat Sep 7, 2019, 09:08 AM

24. This might be a time when...

...a pot laughs at a supposed kettle. YMMV

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Response to jpak (Reply #23)

Sat Sep 7, 2019, 11:52 AM

26. Thank you for your detailed and nuanced response.

I will ponder it deeply and respond as time permits.

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Response to Straw Man (Reply #26)

Sat Sep 7, 2019, 06:13 PM

29. Your response to my question was "detailed and nuanced" - lol

If you were referring to David Koreash and Branch Davidians, they used assault weapons to kill and injure federal LEO - before they burned themselves down.

Lawn Darts were banned after one death.

The AR-15 death toll is in the thousands and counting....

Have a wonderful night!

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Response to jpak (Reply #29)

Sat Sep 7, 2019, 06:49 PM

31. Diesel fuel, ammonium nitrate, Oklahoma.

Ring any bells?

ETA: Along with jet fuel in tall buildings. Just remembered the upcoming date after posting.

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Response to yagotme (Reply #31)

Sat Sep 7, 2019, 06:58 PM

32. Yeah - fucking militia gun nuts

That own shit like AR-15s

Gun nut fail

Again

Oh - yeah.

AR-15s have killed more Americans than OKC and 9/11 combined

Epic Fail

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Response to jpak (Reply #32)

Sat Sep 7, 2019, 09:41 PM

34. Pardon my asking, but ...

AR-15s have killed more Americans than OKC and 9/11 combined

... I'd like to see a citation for that. What's your source?

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Response to jpak (Reply #29)

Sat Sep 7, 2019, 09:39 PM

33. At least it contained factual information.

No, not the Branch Davidians. Google "the Happy Land Social Club fire." Read and learn.

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Response to jpak (Reply #21)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 06:16 PM

35. Why it is wrong is easy to answer.

The AR-15 style rifles are semi-auto rifles.
By definition, that means they cannot be weapon of mass destruction.

There is no such category as "mass murder weapon". The concept is pure silliness. Any object can be used as a weapon to commit mass murder if one tries hard enough.

If you want to have a meaningful conversation, you first need to define the terms you are making up on the fly.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #35)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 06:21 PM

36. Ask the parents of Sandy Hook if they want to have that discussion

case

closed

The AR-15 is indefensible.

Yup

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Response to jpak (Reply #36)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 06:32 PM

37. If you are not interested, why did you jump into the discussion?

Unfortunately for any discussion purposes, the Sandy Hook parents are just as ignorant about guns and their laws as you are. That makes having any real discussion rather difficult.

If you believe there is something special about AR-15 style rifles that causes them to need extra restrictions that other rifles do not need, please let us know what it is.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #37)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 06:45 PM

38. Becuz AR-15s suck - they have killed hundreds

Did I say they suck?

Why yes I did.

And the do.

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Response to jpak (Reply #38)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 06:52 PM

39. Unfortunately, that is nothing special about AR-15 style rifles.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #39)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 07:02 PM

40. Except they are (like other stupid mass murder weapons like them) are the preferred gun of

mass murderers.

Fact

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Response to jpak (Reply #40)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 07:10 PM

41. It is not surprising to find the top selling rifle

at the top of the "criminally-used rifle" list. The fact that any kind of rifle used in crimes is relatively small in number just skews the stats even more.

This is like saying that the Toyota Camry is the most popular bank-robbery get-away car. As true (or not) as it may be, it does not help in discussions about bank robberies.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #41)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 12:37 AM

43. And it's not surprising that ...

... "90% of crime guns come from 5% of licensed dealers," as I've heard bandied about so much lately. Uh ... yeah. Those are mega-dealers who outsell Ma and Pa Gunshop by a factor of ... oh, shall we say 20 to 1? We're talking Wal-Mart, Bass Pro, Academy, Gander, Bud's, Hyatt, etc. Arguably, 90% of all guns come from that 5%.

The number itself is no indicator of corrupt practice, especially since it doesn't account for any changes in the chain of custody from point of sale to use in a crime.

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Response to jpak (Reply #40)

Sun Sep 8, 2019, 10:36 PM

42. Preferred gun?

As in "I want to commit mass murder, but if I can't get my preferred weapon, I think I'll just go home and look for a movie on Netflix"?

Some facts are more useful than others.

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Response to jpak (Reply #38)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 03:56 PM

45. " they have killed hundreds "

And how many of these " hundreds " were killed by the AR-15, WITH OUT the hand of a human controlling it?

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Response to oneshooter (Reply #45)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 04:04 PM

46. What a lame response

Fuck the NRA

Yup

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Response to jpak (Reply #46)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 04:23 PM

47. If you can not answer the question, then why ask it?

" Fuck the NRA " is no answer.

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Response to oneshooter (Reply #47)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 04:26 PM

48. Please read the OP

pathetic

yup

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Response to jpak (Reply #48)

Mon Sep 9, 2019, 09:13 PM

49. The OP is virtue-signalling bullshit- his family as of yet hasn't renounced his money...

...Stoner said bupkis publicly about civilian use of his design while he was alive, and the claim that
"he died long before any mass shootings occured" is demonstrably false, as see:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1172208791#post6


Mr Stoner died April 24, 1997

Since these shootings were major crimes and 10 or more people were killed at each one, I'm sure his family is mistaken.
1949 Camden shootings
1966 University of Texas tower shooting
1975 Easter Sunday massacre
1982 Wilkes-Barre shootings
1983 Wah Mee massacre
1984 San Ysidro McDonald's massacre
1984 Palm Sunday massacre
1986 Edmond post office shooting
1991 Luby's shooting


On the plus side, because of this thread we've all learned a new template for non-responsive responses to inconvenient questions:

"A noun, a verb, and something derogatory about guns and/or gun owners"

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Response to oneshooter (Reply #47)

Tue Sep 10, 2019, 10:32 AM

50. IMNSHO, a non-answer is an answer

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