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Tue Jul 19, 2022, 10:03 AM

 

Would-be robber shot and killed by intended victim in west Houston, police say

Last edited Tue Jul 19, 2022, 11:42 AM - Edit history (1)

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It happened Saturday night at an ATM near the intersection of Westheimer and South Gessner around 10:30 p.m. Police say they arrived at the location and found a man shot, later determining he was deceased at the scene.

Following a preliminary investigation, police determined the deceased man had a gun and approached another man getting money out of an ATM. The intended victim also had a gun, and that's when shots were fired, killing the would-be robber.

Police say the shooter remained at the scene and is cooperating with the investigation.


It's always good to keep your guard up and be aware of your surroundings when using the ATM.

On edit: I'm shocked at the amount of victim blaming going on. A violent criminal made the choice to threaten the life of an innocent person minding his own business. To protect his life (not his property) that victim chose to fight back against that violent criminal.

Folks blaming the victim should be ashamed.

Compliance is no guarantee of safety. There are countless videos online of violent robbers murdering compliant victims.

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Reply Would-be robber shot and killed by intended victim in west Houston, police say (Original post)
PTWB Jul 2022 OP
AndyS Jul 2022 #1
Pisces Jul 2022 #2
oneshooter Jul 2022 #3
Pisces Jul 2022 #6
oneshooter Jul 2022 #63
AndyS Jul 2022 #7
oneshooter Jul 2022 #4
Hangingon Jul 2022 #5
AndyS Jul 2022 #8
Hangingon Jul 2022 #11
AndyS Jul 2022 #13
Hangingon Jul 2022 #16
DashOneBravo Jul 2022 #79
AndyS Jul 2022 #81
DashOneBravo Aug 2022 #90
AndyS Aug 2022 #91
DashOneBravo Aug 2022 #92
AndyS Aug 2022 #93
Pisces Jul 2022 #9
Hangingon Jul 2022 #12
AndyS Jul 2022 #14
Hangingon Jul 2022 #17
AndyS Jul 2022 #21
Hangingon Jul 2022 #23
AndyS Jul 2022 #25
Hangingon Jul 2022 #27
Pisces Jul 2022 #15
Hangingon Jul 2022 #18
yagotme Jul 2022 #87
ManiacJoe Jul 2022 #76
AndyS Jul 2022 #78
The Mouth Aug 2022 #89
Irish_Dem Jul 2022 #10
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jul 2022 #19
Hangingon Jul 2022 #20
AndyS Jul 2022 #22
Hangingon Jul 2022 #26
AndyS Jul 2022 #28
Hangingon Jul 2022 #29
AndyS Jul 2022 #30
Hangingon Jul 2022 #32
AndyS Jul 2022 #33
Hangingon Jul 2022 #35
oneshooter Jul 2022 #66
AndyS Jul 2022 #77
PTWB Jul 2022 #31
AndyS Jul 2022 #36
oneshooter Jul 2022 #67
AndyS Jul 2022 #74
AndyS Jul 2022 #24
PTWB Jul 2022 #34
AndyS Jul 2022 #37
PTWB Jul 2022 #38
AndyS Jul 2022 #39
PTWB Jul 2022 #40
AndyS Jul 2022 #41
PTWB Jul 2022 #42
AndyS Jul 2022 #43
PTWB Jul 2022 #44
AndyS Jul 2022 #45
PTWB Jul 2022 #46
AndyS Jul 2022 #47
PTWB Jul 2022 #48
AndyS Jul 2022 #49
PTWB Jul 2022 #50
AndyS Jul 2022 #51
PTWB Jul 2022 #52
AndyS Jul 2022 #53
PTWB Jul 2022 #54
AndyS Jul 2022 #55
PTWB Jul 2022 #56
AndyS Jul 2022 #57
PTWB Jul 2022 #58
AndyS Jul 2022 #59
PTWB Jul 2022 #60
AndyS Jul 2022 #61
PTWB Jul 2022 #62
AndyS Jul 2022 #64
PTWB Jul 2022 #68
AndyS Jul 2022 #72
PTWB Jul 2022 #82
AndyS Jul 2022 #84
PTWB Jul 2022 #85
AndyS Jul 2022 #65
PTWB Jul 2022 #69
AndyS Jul 2022 #73
PTWB Jul 2022 #83
DashOneBravo Jul 2022 #70
DashOneBravo Jul 2022 #71
flying_wahini Jul 2022 #75
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jul 2022 #80
The Mouth Jul 2022 #86
melm00se Jul 2022 #88
Post removed Aug 2022 #94
The Mouth Aug 2022 #95

Response to PTWB (Original post)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 10:11 AM

1. So a guy withdraws $100 and another guy says give it to me

and the first guy kills the second guy. Life's pretty cheap for gunners. Over $100 (maybe) someone lost their life.

Love the signs that say "Nothing in this house worth dying for." On the flip side "Nothing in this house is worth killing for."

Even if I had the ability to kill another human being I don't think I'd do it over $100 or ten times that. But then, I'm not a gunner. Life's cheap for gunners.

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Response to AndyS (Reply #1)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 10:22 AM

2. Exactly!! WWJD?? Most of these people are also religious. Killing someone for $100? That's insane

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Response to Pisces (Reply #2)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 10:30 AM

3. Most of the gangers out there would kill you for less. n/t

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Response to oneshooter (Reply #3)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 10:39 AM

6. Maybe, but I would hand that money over quick, not reach for a gun. I also give money to panhandlers

Walk a mile in someone elseís shoes. I give when I can. If Iím ever in dire straits I hope someone is there to lend a hand.

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Response to Pisces (Reply #6)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 07:55 PM

63. So you hand it over quick.

Whats to stop them from killing you anyway.

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Response to oneshooter (Reply #3)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 10:40 AM

7. So that's the standard you hold yourself to? Figures. Life's cheap for gunners. nt

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Response to Pisces (Reply #2)


Response to AndyS (Reply #1)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 10:37 AM

5. So, I work 6 hours of minimum wage to earn $100

The robber, here seen as a good guy with a gun, tries to rob me. I should give up what I worked for , probably, so he can stick something in his arm or up his nose. If I resist I am the godless monster. Wow! What logic.



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Response to Hangingon (Reply #5)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 10:41 AM

8. Okay, you're on record for a human life being worth maybe $100. Duly noted. nt

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Response to AndyS (Reply #8)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 10:57 AM

11. Proud to be on record for it.

You are on record for the determination of Society. In my estimation, the robber sets 5e value of his life at $100. He is the one willing to risk death for a Cnote.

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Response to Hangingon (Reply #11)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 11:02 AM

13. Proud of yersef, are ya'? Not sure what ya' mean about me determining society . . . nt

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Response to AndyS (Reply #13)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 11:31 AM

16. Well "determination" should be deterioration.

Got out of the house yesterday and went shopping. Every where I went there were help wanted signs. The would be robber could have gotten a job and put in 6 hours work for $100. For a bonus he could have sold his gun. Why are those of us who work supposed to give up our earnings to those who donít? Why does that sound like slavery?

Yes, I AM proud to be a worker! Sounds like a union statement doesnít it?

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Response to AndyS (Reply #8)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 11:55 PM

79. What's the record worth when a criminal grabs your kids ?

Channon Gail Christian, aged 21, and Hugh Christopher Newsom Jr., aged 23, were from Knoxville, Tennessee. They were kidnapped on the evening of January 6, 2007, when Christian's vehicle was carjacked. The couple was taken to a rental house. Both of them were raped, tortured, and murdered. Four males and one female were arrested, charged, and convicted in the case.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newsom

Your trust for criminals is astounding. Hopefully nothing ever happens to anyone you love.

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Response to DashOneBravo (Reply #79)

Wed Jul 20, 2022, 07:32 AM

81. Asinine question and flamebait. Not biting.

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Response to AndyS (Reply #81)

Tue Aug 9, 2022, 10:58 PM

90. Hang on sir

Why did you bail on responding to a couple of accounts in this thread ?

Iíve have never met a military vet who run from a thug. Not one. Do you know why? They attack law abiding citizens and for most of us, they are the same level as a child molester.


Didnít you claim attending sniper school? . What was your MOS, which post and what year?



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Response to DashOneBravo (Reply #90)

Wed Aug 10, 2022, 10:12 AM

91. Setting the record straight re sniper school.

Snipers are heroes or zeros depending on the era. During my time in the service they were zeros and none of the branches had an official sniper program. There was no sniper school at that time. I was on the CG rifle team and as such was seen as a pretty good shot.

My unit served as a Provisional Riot Control Battalion. The day job was quartermaster. Our Battalion Commander had grandiose visions and when we were deployed to DC he selected three of the rifle team as "sharpshooters" while deployed. Keep in mind that the First Army designated the battalion as Brave Fox Delta so you have some idea of how seriously the rest of the Army took us.

I did not attend 'Sniper School' and never claimed to have. I did say I served as one of three people who acted as a sniper while in DC for the Vietnam Moratorium and May Day demonstrations. Obviously we were never activated as such. My only reason for relating the story is to indicate my proficiency with guns.

Your experience with vets is different from mine. The people I know evaluate a situation and choose the most likely course to success and survival. FBI victim stats indicate that resistance to an armed robbery put one at a 4x higher risk of harm than not and doing so with a gun puts one at a 5x higher risk. There are old fools and bold fools but no old bold fools.

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Response to AndyS (Reply #91)

Wed Aug 10, 2022, 12:34 PM

92. Thanks for explaining that.

I couldnít remember.

What years were you in?

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Response to DashOneBravo (Reply #92)

Wed Aug 10, 2022, 02:43 PM

93. '69-'71

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Response to Hangingon (Reply #5)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 10:42 AM

9. It's a life. Sorry but 6 hours of work is not worth someone's life. I hope that person was going to

Buy food with that money. Sure he could be a drug addict, but me personally Im not killing anyone over money.

The only thing would be if my children were threatened or harmed. Money never.

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Response to Pisces (Reply #9)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 11:02 AM

12. The $100 would have fed the shooter's children.

In America today, Work has no value to Society I guess.

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Response to Hangingon (Reply #12)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 11:03 AM

14. Clearly life has no value, at least not to gunners. nt

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Response to AndyS (Reply #14)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 11:40 AM

17. Your concentration on the gun issue has caused you to lose sight of reality.

You deamonize the honest worker and laud the lawless robber. I do not think anyone can take a life and not feel it profoundly. I will bet the honest worker, the guy you demean for defending himself and society, just wanted to keep his money and defend himself. He most probably wanted to stop the threat and not earn a notch on his gun.

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Response to Hangingon (Reply #17)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 12:34 PM

21. That's how you see it? And you think I'm blinded by guns???

No I don't demonize the honest worker nor do I laud anyone else. I demonize the cheapening of life the gun cullture has promoted among gun owners. The fact that one human being would kill another over a few dollars is what I'm demonizing.

Wonderful rosy pictture you paint, pure evil on one side and pure virtue on the other when you have no idea who either of these people are. I don't either. But I do know that life is worth more than property.

Sorry you can't identify with a human life being worth more than an ATM withdrawl. You should be ashamed for devaluing a human being to that degree. It gives me an idea of where to place your humanity quotient.

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Response to AndyS (Reply #21)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 01:05 PM

23. Nice attempt to regain lost high ground

I think the robber set the value of his life. I would rather that he work for survival than rob. He should have no gun. Sadly, the robberís trait precedes firearms. Had the robber had no weapon, then the honest worker would not need one either. Life is worth more than property? I did not say that. I said one worked honestly to earn money for food. The other tried to take the value of his work by force. The value of work is more than property - it is food and shelter for self and family. The one who should be ashamed for devaluing life is not me.

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Response to Hangingon (Reply #23)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 01:09 PM

25. Nice circular argument. Also nice deflection.

Go hug your gun.

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Response to AndyS (Reply #25)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 01:23 PM

27. Well, I think it is time to heed my father's advice from long ago.

You cannot argue or discuss with someone unwilling to reason. You are so single minded on the gun issue you see only that perspective. I know you will keep it up which only helps the Second Amendment. Keep dignifying crime. Now you can stop hounding me.

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Response to Hangingon (Reply #12)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 11:31 AM

15. Apples and oranges. We are discussing a life. In America life has no value unless you're a fetus.

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Response to Pisces (Reply #15)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 11:57 AM

18. That is sad.

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Response to Pisces (Reply #15)

Wed Jul 27, 2022, 01:40 PM

87. How so?

Victim of robbery has worked for the $. Robber has not. Should the victim give up his earnings, which he needs to feed his family, to the robber, who is not inclined to work, and wants to make money the "easy" way? Should the victim's family starve, so the criminal's family won't? I'd just about bet ya a 100 that the criminal wasn't going to be headed to the grocery store with that money. Not for food for his family.

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Response to AndyS (Reply #1)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 11:24 PM

76. You seem to have missed the part about

the Bad Guy threatening to kill the Good Guy. Classic case of self defense.

If the Bad Guy thinks his life is worth only $100, who are we to argue with him.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #76)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 11:41 PM

78. No, I didn't miss that. It just doesn't seem to fit most scenarios.

Yeah a threat is made but most times if the robber gets what he asks for he takes it and runs.

The odds are in favor of compliance if you want to be safe. It sucks but that's what statistics tell us. Nice that this time the robbery victim didn't die. If only one party had a gun, makes no difference which one, probably nobody would have died. No, I can't guarantee it but that's the way things work out most times.

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Response to AndyS (Reply #1)

Mon Aug 1, 2022, 08:03 PM

89. Good riddance

One less dirtbag to hold someone else up.

Anyone who would hold someone up, regardless of what amount, the world is better off without them.

The only good robber, rapist, carjacker, or burglar is one rapidly assuming room temperature from a gaping chest wound.

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Response to PTWB (Original post)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 10:46 AM

10. Appears that shoot outs are going to be common now in the US.

Like the Old West.

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Response to PTWB (Original post)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 12:16 PM

19. Assuming that someone who points a gun at you doesn't intend to shoot you...

...is illogical.

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Response to discntnt_irny_srcsm (Reply #19)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 12:19 PM

20. Amen

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Response to Hangingon (Reply #20)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 12:39 PM

22. Where the fuck did you get that factoid?

I read that the police determined that the dead man had a gun after investigating. Funny how gunners automatically jump to the conclusion that every confrontation begins and end with a gun. Of course if it's a Stand Your Ground case it's best to kill the only other witness . . .

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Response to AndyS (Reply #22)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 01:17 PM

26. Well I read that too.

Do you take it that the robber had gun back home? He didnít it need it to prey on other people? The article does not say that! You are amazed at gunners? Because we can read?

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Response to Hangingon (Reply #26)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 01:36 PM

28. Answer this for me:

Let's say I'm the robber and you're the ATM guy. According to what I've read in the thread your scenario is that I approach you at the ATM with gun drawn pointed at you. "Give me your money!", I demand. There you stand, one hand full of ATM cash and me pointing my gun at you yet you manage to retrieve your concealed carry gun from wherever you have it concealed and kill me before I can get a shot off. Was the ATM guy named Matt Dillon by any chance?

Given that the ATM guy was able to avoid being shot isn't it likely that the robber's gun was still concealed and discovered on his dead body?

My amazement at gunners is the degree to which you guys can fantasize scenarios whereby the bad guy has the drop on you with gun drawn and yet the poor victimized Concealed Carry can, although caught by surprise with a gun pointed at him draw and shoot the vicious gun wielding villain.

Just give the guy the money and nobody dies. Is that so hard to grasp?

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Response to AndyS (Reply #28)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 01:58 PM

29. We only know what is in the 3 paragraphs. That is what we deal with.

However it happened, the good guy is still standing. He did not run. He stayed and cooperated. The police are satisfied.

You anti-gunner mindset continues to skew the situation. The ATM guy worked and earned. Likely, the $100 is more than cash. It is groceries, gas, perhaps part of the rent. He spent time and effort to obtain it.

That part of Houston has many working class people. In todayís hyper inflation $100 is a lot of money. If he had robbed me, I might have made your calculation and given him the money. I can afford it. Please note ó giving him the money In no way guarantees that I would live. Street people kill hundreds of people for no reason each week in America today. Get your prejudices in control and view the scenario in terms of todays reality.

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Response to Hangingon (Reply #29)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 02:12 PM

30. Again, fantasizing scenarios that justify killing a human over a few bucks. I'm gonna'

do a gunner tactic and ask for data on street people killing hundreds of people a week. The Gunviolence archive doesn't back that up but I'm sure you have reliable data.

My data says that resisting a robbery is 5x more likely to get YOU shot. link All that needed to happen was to give the guy the money and nobody would die.

However you didn't answer my question. How can someone with a concealed gun out draw someone who already has a gun pointed at them? You're good at making stuff up, lets hear how that happens.

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Response to AndyS (Reply #30)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 02:19 PM

32. In my final response to your repeated attempts to make a crook a hero..

However you didn't answer my question. How can someone with a concealed gun out draw someone who already has a gun pointed at them? You're good at making stuff up, lets hear how that happens.

I do not know. We do not know. In the end, the good guy lived and justice prevailed. It happens sometimes.

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Response to Hangingon (Reply #32)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 02:24 PM

33. I have not made anyone a hero. I have put human life above cash. You are on record for being

proud of choosing a few hundred dollars over a human life.

The only place in law that puts a death penalty on robbery is Stand Your Ground. Just give the guy the money and nobody dies.

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Response to AndyS (Reply #33)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 02:33 PM

35. You really can't see beyond the simplest thing when guns are involved

That $100 may be life for the ATM guy, and maybe others, for a short period. So absolutely dense and self righteous. Absolutely amazing.

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Response to AndyS (Reply #30)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 08:07 PM

66. "that needed to happen was to give the guy the money and nobody would die. "

Can you guarantee that? Or are you speaking of a "maybe".

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Response to oneshooter (Reply #66)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 11:32 PM

77. This is at least worth a reply, barely.

Can I guarantee that? No but can you guarantee otherwise? Based on statistics compiled by the NIH and the FBI victims reports we can be sure that a victim is less likely to be injured if they do not resist. Not saying anyone is safe in any criminal act or that there are no injuries or worse but the odds are in favor of compliance. Sucks but that's the way it seems to be.

We can also say with some confidence that if a victim resists an armed robber he is 4x more likely to be shot and 5x more likely to be shot if resisting with a gun.

You may want to play those odds but more often than not it's a losing hand.

What I take from this is that robbers want to rob not kill or harm. They just want stuff you have and if you give it to them more often than not they take it and run.

I've posted links elsewhere in the thread if you want to find them.


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Response to Hangingon (Reply #29)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 02:17 PM

31. It's incredible...

 

That they grasp at straws like this to try to portray the victim as some sociopathic criminal mastermind who valued a few measly dollars over the life of an innocent and misunderstood, down-on-his-luck thief who was probably just trying to feed his family. They fantasize that this armed victim killed the robber in cold blood.

Reality has no basis in the discussion for some of the folks who choose to blame the victim instead of the violent criminal who tried to rob said victim, at gunpoint, at an ATM. They completely ignore that it was the robberís choices and the robberís actions that precipitated the event.

None of us get to pick and choose when we might be victimized by a violent criminal, though we can avoid putting ourselves in situations where we are more likely to be victimized. That said, I think visiting the ATM does not qualify as violating one of the Ďrules of stupid.í

Blaming this victim for being armed at the ATM machine is like blaming a sexual assault victim for her attire, or a domestic abuse victim for not leaving her abuser.

Now youíve got one in this thread flat out saying that the victim who had to defend himself wasnít a victim at all. Like he planned this whole thing out so he could kill an innocent armed robber. Reality denying responses like those are why I post stories like these. It shines a spotlight on the disingenuous arguments.

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Response to PTWB (Reply #31)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 02:44 PM

36. I have not said any of that.

"portray the victim as some sociopathic criminal mastermind" Care to back that up with a quote?

"the violent criminal who tried to rob said victim, at gunpoint," Care to back up the 'at gunpoint' quote? All we know is the police found a gun at the scene and the shooter was able to kill him without being shot which indicates to me that there was no "at gunpoint".

"Blaming this victim for being armed at the ATM machine is like blaming a sexual assault victim for her attire, or a domestic abuse victim for not leaving her abuser." I did not do that.

"Now youíve got one in this thread flat out saying that the victim who had to defend himself wasnít a victim at all. Like he planned this whole thing out so he could kill an innocent armed robber." I did not do that.

I admire your vivid imagination, perhaps you should take up fiction writing.

What I DID do is say that human life is worth more than a few dollars. I lament the way the gun culture has cheapened life to the point an ATM withdrawl is more valuable that a human life. Any human life.

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Response to AndyS (Reply #36)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 08:11 PM

67. "What I DID do is say that human life is worth more than a few dollars."

So then, tell me what is the price of a human life? Is yours worth more than mine, worth more than any of the posters here?

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Response to oneshooter (Reply #67)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 10:58 PM

74. Flame bait and I'm not biteing.

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Response to PTWB (Original post)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 01:07 PM

24. "I'm shocked at the amount of victim blaming going on."

Yeah, gunners always see themselves as victims. So if you feel shamed for putting a few dollars above human life, my job here is done.

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Response to AndyS (Reply #24)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 02:24 PM

34. The armed robber fired his gun at the victim.

 

All these victim blaming posts aged like milk. Iím not surprised in the least.

Sure is amusing to see how many people tried to claim that the victim killed the robber over a few dollars and not over the fact that the armed robber was threatening the victimís life over a few dollars. Or that the victim fired and the police found some concealed weapon on the robber after the fact.

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Response to PTWB (Reply #34)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 02:55 PM

37. The article doesn't back up what you said.

The intended victim also had a gun, and that's when shots were fired, killing the would-be robber.


Shots were exchanged after the robbery victim drew his gun. Just give the robber the cash and nobody dies. That's the advice most law envorcement gives because you are 5x more likely to die resisting. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2759797/

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Response to AndyS (Reply #37)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 03:37 PM

38. You'll have to try again.

 

There are other articles about the shooting


HOUSTON - Officials said a would-be robber was shot to death Saturday night in west Houston after the victim pulled out his own weapon against the attacker.

It happened around 10:30 p.m. on Westheimer and South Gessner, where according to investigators, a man was leaving an ATM and another man tried to rob him. That's when the alleged victim pulled out a gun and the two fired their weapons.


We're told the shooter remained at the scene and cooperating with officers, but no other information was shared, as of this writing.


Still feel like victim blaming? Moments ago you were filled with righteous indignation that the victim in this case dared defend himself, taking the life of the armed robber for mere dollars.

Compliance against an armed robber is no guarantee of safety. There are countless videos available showing compliant victims being injured or murdered by their attackers.

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Response to PTWB (Reply #38)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 03:53 PM

39. For the LAST time I'm not blaming the victim.

I am repeating yet again that human life is worth more than an ATM withdrawl.

The shooter used bad judgement being blinded by gun culture hero syndrome. You are 4x more likely to be shot if you resist and 5x more likely to be shot if you use a gun resisting. Just give the robber the money and everybody has a better chance of leaving un-hurt.

The shooter is indeed a victim; a victim of the brainwashing done to you and the other gunners who beleive that a gun makes you safer. I'll see your countless videos and raise you cold hard facts from the NIH: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2759797/

Guns do not make you safer, either at home or in public.


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Response to AndyS (Reply #39)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 04:03 PM

40. How is this not blaming the victim?

 

He was an innocent person going about his business withdrawing money from an ATM.

Did our victim choose to start this confrontation? No, the armed robber did.

Did our victim force the armed robber to pull out a gun and threaten the victimís life? Of course not. That choice was made, again, by the armed robber.

The victim chose to defend his life with deadly force when the robber, not the victim, decided that the victimís life and his own life were worth less than value of the ATM withdrawal.

Once again, there are countless examples readily available of compliant victims being beaten, brutalized, and murdered. Youíre free to take your chances with compliance if youíre ever the victim of a violent crime but youíre not free to try to blame the victim for choosing to defend his life, not his property, when he was threatened with deadly force.

This victim blaming nonsense reeks of blaming sexual assault victims for their choice of attire, or not fighting back, or fighting back too much.

It is so transparent, too.

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Response to PTWB (Reply #40)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 04:36 PM

41. You can keep saying that but nobody is buying what you're selling.

You can also keep believing that guns make you safer but if you're going to play those odds don't get into a poker game with the rent money.

This is the way gunners go about life. Being belligerent, repeating gun lore over and over while ignoring all demonstrable facts and refusing to see the world as it is, preferring to cling to the lies promoted by the gun industry.

I didn't and don't blame the shooter for anything but poor judgment based on gun lore promoted by people deeply inculcated in gun culture, people deluded by organizations like the NRA, the NSSF and those who repeat and promote the lies told them.

One more time; life is worth more than an ATM transaction and you are far safer simply handing over the money and not resisting. Facts back this up.

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Response to AndyS (Reply #41)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 04:45 PM

42. Looks like several folks in the thread don't appreciate the victim blaming.

 

One more time; life is worth more than an ATM transaction and you are far safer simply handing over the money and not resisting. Facts back this up.


Seems to me that the victim is still here and the armed robber who initiated the deadly confrontation is not. I suppose I'll be seeing some threads from you soon that are lamenting the dangers of living the life of the violent criminal, right?

The indisputable fact is that if you choose to be compliant in the face of a deadly threat from a violent, armed attacker, you're allowing that attacker to decide whether you live or die. And we've all seen the graphic videos depicting the very real consequences for many victims who do choose compliance. Sometimes they're left uninjured and are out only their property, but other times they're beaten, brutalized, or murdered.

If you really cared about the lives of these armed robbers who find themselves dead on a slab at the hands of their victim, you'd be advocating for us to address the root causes of violent crime in the first place: poverty and wealth disparity, systemic racism and oppression, chronic addiction, the war on drugs, lack of mental health care, and an underfunded education system.

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Response to PTWB (Reply #42)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 04:47 PM

43. Once again, No it is not indisputable. In fact all the data refute that. nt

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Response to AndyS (Reply #43)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 04:49 PM

44. LOL

 

It isnít an indisputable fact?

So if someone is pointing a gun at a victim and demands your car keys, wallet, and phone, then you hand them over, and that person shoots the victim, who made that decision?

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Response to PTWB (Reply #44)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 05:06 PM

45. It is not indisputable that resisting is a better course of action than not resisting.

The data refute that.

I looked over the thread and seems like as many people saying what I am as backing the shoot 'em up philosophy.

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Response to AndyS (Reply #45)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 05:11 PM

46. Try again.

 

Read what I wrote this time.

The indisputable fact is that if you choose to be compliant in the face of a deadly threat from a violent, armed attacker, you're allowing that attacker to decide whether you live or die.


When a compliant victim is murdered by their attacker, who makes that decision if not the attacker?

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Response to PTWB (Reply #46)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 05:28 PM

47. No, I'm not playing that semantic game. I'm not letting you define some narrow

situation fabricated from gun lore. The facts are that fewer people are injured when they do not resist than when they do. Resisting an armed robbery is far more dangerous than complying and resisting with a gun is 20% more dangerous yet.

Fantasize all you want, I'm not playing by gunner rules.

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Response to AndyS (Reply #47)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 05:45 PM

48. The only one playing the semantics game is you.

 

The indisputable fact is that if you choose to be compliant in the face of a deadly threat from a violent, armed attacker, you're allowing that attacker to decide whether you live or die.

You are arguing that statistically, the odds are better if a victim chooses to comply, but that doesnít change the indisputable fact that the armed attacker ultimately makes the decision whether or not he murders the victim.

Iím not nearly as rigid in my thinking as you, nor am I married to some specific dogma. I can envision scenarios that I would not have an opportunity to defend myself from an attacker or multiple attackers and where compliance would be my best option.

I can just as easily envision scenarios where Iíd have a window of opportunity to defend myself.

At the end of the day I am confident in my abilities and instincts. Iíve practiced with my carry weapon to the point that I am proficient and comfortable. I can draw quickly and shoot accurately.

Do you suggest that my life experiences, background, athleticism, and my training, give me the same chances of a successful resistance as, say, an untrained, frail, and elderly person? Or teenager? Or even a young adult who has no training at all?

This is one of the reasons that I strongly advocate for minimum standards for concealed carry licensesóeveryone who makes the choice to carry a weapon should be trained to the point of proficiency with it.

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Response to PTWB (Reply #48)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 06:02 PM

49. Welll . . .

Do you suggest that my life experiences, background, athleticism, and my training, give me the same chances of a successful resistance as, say, an untrained, frail, and elderly person? Or teenager? Or even a young adult who has no training at all?


I am telling you outright that statistically you are more at risk of being shot if you have a gun than not.

Guns do not make you safer either at home or in public.

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Response to AndyS (Reply #49)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 06:05 PM

50. That isn't what the statistics say.

 

Thank you for choosing not to blame the victim in this case and thank you for finally agreeing that the violent attacker decides whether or not he murders his victim.

We are making progress!

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Response to PTWB (Reply #50)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 06:23 PM

51. That is what the statistics say.

https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/full/10.7326/M21-3762

We'll make progress when you accept science and refute gun lore.

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Response to AndyS (Reply #51)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 06:24 PM

52. That isn't how statistics work my friend.

 

Statistics donít say anything about your individual odds or
my individual odds. Theyíre an aggregate.

You donít really believe that a Navy Seal, Army Ranger, or anyone else with extensive experience and training, has the same odds as a 95 year old grandmother, do you?

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Response to PTWB (Reply #52)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 06:38 PM

53. Just tellin' ya' what the science says.

You donít really believe that a Navy Seal, Army Ranger, or anyone else with extensive experience and training, has the same odds as a 95 year old grandmother, do you?


I really believe that those people have as much fallibility as anyone else.

Purely anecdotal so not germane to the population at large but someone just like you describe; Marine, cc licensed, lots of time at the range and tactical training. Drew his home protection gun once. It was his nephew who was spending the week coming home from a date. Fortunately for both he did not discharge the Beretta. He did however put it away in a gun-safe never to be taken out again.

So, yes, that is how statistics work.

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Response to AndyS (Reply #53)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 06:43 PM

54. That still isn't how statistics work.

 

Statistics do not predict your individual odds, my individual odds, or anyone elseís individual odds. Theyíre an aggregate.

You can try to argue until youíre blue in the face that a highly trained special forces operator has the same odds of successfully defending himself as a frail 95 year old woman confined to a wheelchair, but that still isnít how statistics work.

The last study you linked indicates that people who have guns in their household are more likely to be victims of gun crime.

As I am not a victim or perpetrator of domestic violence, I am not involved in any criminal activity, and have extensive firearms experience and training, what are my odds?

Youíve got studies that are able to control for those factors, right?

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Response to PTWB (Reply #54)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 06:48 PM

55. I don't believe in Superman.

As I am not a victim or perpetrator of domestic violence, I am not involved in any criminal activity, and have extensive firearms experience and training, what are my odds?


About as good as any other human being.

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Response to AndyS (Reply #55)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 06:51 PM

56. So...

 

You do think that a highly trained special forces operator would have the same odds of successfully defending himself as a frail 95 year old woman?

Itís a simple question. Yes or no?

Despite the simplicity of the question Iím not holding my breath waiting for an answer LOL.

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Response to PTWB (Reply #56)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 07:15 PM

57. Wasn't answering that question but under most circumstances you have arguably a

better possibility of success than the hypothetical 95 year old woman (why reference a woman?)

My response is more to the possibility that having a gun will make you more likely to be shot. About the same odds as anyone else which is what statistics predict.

BTW every concealed carry license, every former military/police and just about every other gunner I've ever talked to was an exception to the statistical probabilities.

Just about every very one. What are the odds of that many exceptions . . .

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Response to AndyS (Reply #57)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 07:23 PM

58. No reason.

 

I could have said 3rd grader and it would have gotten the point across just the same.

Considering that highly trained military / police veterans make up a very small percentage of the population, I donít see the issue with that number of exceptions.

I make no claim of exceptions for untrained, unpracticed, and unprepared people regardless of their concealed carry license status.

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Response to PTWB (Reply #58)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 07:37 PM

59. Yeah, you're the only exception. Right.

The statistics apply to you too. Perhaps in the hypothetical situation you conjure up you will have an advantage. The statistical analysis applies to the population at large of which you are a member. People who have guns are more likely to get shot.

This a tactic I'm familiar with. Create a hypothetical situation that fits a specific argument instead of the topic under discussion. I'll be waiting for the zombie apocalypse or the attack of dozen rabid racoons. Anytime the facts don't fit your argument create a different argument.

People who have guns are more likely to be shot. Guns do not make you safer at home or in public.

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Response to AndyS (Reply #59)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 07:38 PM

60. Lol

 

Where did I say that I am the only exception?

Iíve noticed that in post after post you attribute things to me that Iíve never said, then attack those things that Iíve never said, in some sort of attempt to argue against a position you wish I would take instead of one Iíve actually taken.

Why? Iím genuinely curious.

It would be a lot more productive if youíd address what I actually say if youíre interested in some sort of discussion.

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Response to PTWB (Reply #60)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 07:52 PM

61. Here:


Statistics donít say anything about your individual odds or
my individual odds. Theyíre an aggregate.


And #54.

Statistics are an aggregate of the population in the study, apply to that population and you are part of that population. The statistics apply to you.

Guns do not make you safer at home or in public.

Oh and you might want to add "yet" to that fourth paragraph in #54. Things can change ya' know . . . that's how 60% of criminals in state prisons bought their guns legally.

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Response to AndyS (Reply #61)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 07:53 PM

62. Hmmm..

 

Donít see anything where Iíve said Iím the only exception.

Try again.

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Response to PTWB (Reply #62)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 07:57 PM

64. Okay, I'll modify my wording. Your are AN exception (in your own mind).

When to we get to the rabid racoons?

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Response to AndyS (Reply #64)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 08:16 PM

68. Exception was your word.

 

When I'm engaging with someone I try to use the words they're using, in the context I think they're using them, so that we can have a meaningful discussion.

What I've written is that people's life experiences and physical attributes impact the statistical odds of a successful defensive encounter. You initially had difficulty accepting that statistics don't predict an individual's odds of success, but you did accept that in post #56 where you wrote:

but under most circumstances you have arguably a better possibility of success than the hypothetical 95 year old woman


Now, given that we've accepted that different people, with different levels of experience, training, life skills, athleticism, etc, will have different odds of successfully defending themselves, why would you then regress to your previous position in post #58?

You're trying to make your argument while avoiding hypothetical scenarios but given the rarity of gun violence and even rarer defensive gun uses, hypotheticals are a necessary evil. I've only personally been involved in one defensive gun use and I am unlikely to ever be in that same situation, or even a remotely similar situation, ever again.

We talk about hypothetical situations we can envision but they're based off real scenarios that can and do happen, like the ATM robbery, or the active shooter at the mall, or the home invasion. Despite the extremely low chance I will ever encounter something like one of those scenarios, they're still far more likely than encountering a similar scenario to what I faced in the previously mentioned defensive gun use and yet that actually happened.

All that is to say this: I would have been murdered or would have been gravely wounded if not for a firearm used defensively. I must already be an exception to your statistics.

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Response to PTWB (Reply #68)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 10:46 PM

72. Oh Jesus fucking Christ this is so fucking tedious.

I don't like doing cut n paste but you cram so much deflection and red herring into one post there's no other way to deal with it.

What I've written is that people's life experiences and physical attributes impact the statistical odds of a successful defensive encounter. You initially had difficulty accepting that statistics don't predict an individual's odds of success, but you did accept that in post #56 where you wrote:
but under most circumstances you have arguably a better possibility of success than the hypothetical 95 year old woman

You wrote this in response to the statistical fact that people with guns are more likely to be shot. You changed the goal post from the population at large and the danger of having guns to a specific hypothetical that you made up to fit your point of view. We've discussed this yet you do it again.

Now, given that we've accepted that different people, with different levels of experience, training, life skills, athleticism, etc, will have different odds of successfully defending themselves, why would you then regress to your previous position in post #58?

Who is 'we'? Got a mouse in your pocket? I acquiesced to the proposition that given your hypothetical you might be more successful than a 95 year old woman. You're still straying from the fact that people who have guns are more likely to be shot.

You're trying to make your argument while avoiding hypothetical scenarios but given the rarity of gun violence and even rarer defensive gun uses, hypotheticals are a necessary evil. I've only personally been involved in one defensive gun use and I am unlikely to ever be in that same situation, or even a remotely similar situation, ever again.

Well, yeah, no shit. If you want to share that one event (not that I doubt you but context means a lot) we can talk about THAT but it still falls outside the fact that people who have guns are more likely to be shot.

We talk about hypothetical situations we can envision but they're based off real scenarios that can and do happen, like the ATM robbery, or the active shooter at the mall, or the home invasion. Despite the extremely low chance I will ever encounter something like one of those scenarios, they're still far more likely than encountering a similar scenario to what I faced in the previously mentioned defensive gun use and yet that actually happened.

Yes extremely rare that guns are used in self defense. I've been trying to make this point. Guns rarely help a situation and are proven to make most of them worse. Guns do not make you safer at home or in public. As for the ATM incident the fact still remains that it is safer to capitulate to the robber than to resist. I've given you proof that you are 4x more likely to be injured resisting and 5x more likely if you use a gun to resist. Why is this hard to grasp?

I had thought we'd gotten past the herky jerky goal post moving but apparently you missed the memo about guns not making you safe. I'll say again, playing these odds is a losing game for the gun owner. Please don't bet the rent money (or your life) on odds like this!

Once more: you are more likely to be shot if you have a gun. Guns do not make you safer at home or in public.

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Response to AndyS (Reply #72)

Wed Jul 20, 2022, 09:25 AM

82. I've addressed the statistics being twisted in a separate post and will include the link

 

Post link

I'm not sure what is difficult to understand here: different people from different backgrounds with different training, life experiences, and abilities have different odds of success in defending themselves.

That is indisputable no matter how much you want to dispute it.

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Response to PTWB (Reply #82)

Wed Jul 20, 2022, 09:52 AM

84. It's NOT about some ficticious self defense scenario.

I keep repeating that having a gun puts you at more risk of being shot. Period. End of statement.

In any made up scenario the hero syndrome kicks in and Bang! the bad guy is dead. In real life you are 5x more likely to be shot than shooting someone. Period. End of statement.

This true for all people of all skill levels and all life experiences. Period. End of statement.

This is what is indisputabe. Period. End of statement.

Grandious self estimation is going to get you killed.

I think we've exhausted the topic. Good day and good luck, you're going to need it.

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Response to AndyS (Reply #84)

Wed Jul 20, 2022, 10:11 AM

85. Despite your repititions...

 

the statistics and the science are what they are. You can feel free to dispute the studies showing that defensive gun use is effective if you like but you'll need to find some different studies than what you've cited in the past, as none of them are specific to defensive gun use.

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Response to PTWB (Reply #62)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 08:04 PM

65. I've got an appointment soon so I'll bid you good evening.

I'll leave you with this:

A human life is worth more than an ATM withdrawl.

If I blame the shooter for anything it's using poor judgement based on gun lore and good guy with a gun syndrome. He (and anyone else) is less likely to be hurt in an armed robbery by complying instead of resisting and resisting with a gun puts you at 20% greater risk.

It's just science.

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Response to AndyS (Reply #65)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 08:21 PM

69. The robber was not killed over an ATM withdrawal.

 

That is a disingenuous mischaracterization and not at all in keeping with the reality of what we know about what happened.

A violent, armed robber pulled a gun on a victim at an ATM machine. That victim, faced with a deadly threat and a gun wielding assailant, drew his own firearm and exchanged gunfire with the armed robber--not to save a dollar but to save his own life.

The robber was the one who chose to place the value of the ATM withdrawal over the life of his victim and his own life, the victim did not make that decision.

You're trying to apply blanket statistics to the victim without knowing any of the meaningful details of the encounter. What was the victim's background? Level of training? Experience with firearms?

Did the armed robber make verbal of physical threats of violence prior to the victim choosing to draw instead of comply? Did something happen that gave the victim a window of opportunity to draw his own firearm while the assailant's attention was diverted?

We don't know the answer to those questions but they'll all factor in to the statistical dice roll determining his success or failure. The only things we do know for sure are that the violent criminal initiated the encounter, fired shots at the victim, and the victim prevailed--statistics be damned.

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Response to PTWB (Reply #69)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 10:58 PM

73. You got all this from 3 paragraphs?

We don't know any of this. It is all pure supposition to fit your position. In your own post you jump back and forth between purporting hard evidence to did the robber do this or that? and "We don't know the answer to those questions "

What we do know is that a man is dead over an ATM withdrawal when the robbery victim was less likely to be harmed if he surrendered the money than resisted. In this case the victim was lucky and beat the odds assuming all is as the shooter reported to the police, another thing we don't know.

Boy, talk about a disingenuous presentation (won't say misrepresentation because as you said, we don't know).

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Response to AndyS (Reply #73)

Wed Jul 20, 2022, 09:28 AM

83. That's incorrect.

 

I posted what we do know based on what has been reported and then, separately, posted questions that we don't know the answer to. Just because you don't like what has been reported doesn't change the fact that it's been reported.

A man is dead because he made the choice to commit an armed robbery of an innocent victim. The dead man chose to value the victim's ATM withdrawal over the victim's life and his own life. The victim did not make that choice.

The victim was prepared and defended his life, quite successfully. No amount of victim blaming will change the facts here.

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Response to PTWB (Original post)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 10:18 PM

70. Don't be shocked.

I guess you missed the worst ones.

There were posts about people being killed and their comments were like ď more for the altar of the NRA / 2nd Amendment ď. Never mentioned a word about the loss or effects of family/friends/ or people who had to try to save someone.

Iíve told this one other time, I was the first in the room, to work on a 12 year old girl. Who been gut shot. Itís was H&R .410 shotgun. Nothing I could do would save her.

So I do what I can to train/ teach and educate. Guns arenít going away and thatís the best option I have.

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Response to PTWB (Original post)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 10:39 PM

71. There is a strong contingent who hate self defense

Itís really weird but I have a rule.

Never trust a criminal with your life. Not for a second, they can grab you and force you to do this

Channon Gail Christian, aged 21, and Hugh Christopher Newsom Jr., aged 23, were from Knoxville, Tennessee. They were kidnapped on the evening of January 6, 2007, when Christian's vehicle was carjacked. The couple was taken to a rental house. Both of them were raped, tortured, and murdered. Four males and one female were arrested, charged, and convicted in the case.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newsom

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Response to PTWB (Original post)

Tue Jul 19, 2022, 11:01 PM

75. See as an older woman I would be afraid that he would take my bank card, my car and then

Try to rape and or kill me.
$100 is not enough to kill someone, maybe in normal situations. But this isnít an ordinary situation. Is $100 worth risking getting shot for? Ask the robber.

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Response to PTWB (Original post)

Wed Jul 20, 2022, 07:13 AM

80. What I see through many replies in this thread:

There is a issue here that statistics dictate probability. This would be incorrect. Statistics look at past history. Probability is projection of possible future events and outcomes.

I once had a relevant discussion with a taxi driver in Atlanta. Over a number of years that I don't remember, he hadn't been successfully robbed or injured. One could guess that, since he was driving me to an area neighboring a section informally known as "the bluff", that either he didn't go there often or that he was a statistically anomaly. IMO one factor in his favor was his history with SEAL Team Two.

YMMV

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Response to PTWB (Original post)

Mon Jul 25, 2022, 08:49 AM

86. Good riddance.

One less dirtbag.

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Response to PTWB (Original post)

Thu Jul 28, 2022, 09:17 AM

88. As soon as the word "gun"

appears, the immediate reaction is that the person with the gun is in the wrong.

This article: "Life's pretty cheap for gunners", " Okay, you're on record for a human life being worth maybe $100. Duly noted", "Clearly life has no value, at least not to gunners".

The article with the bad guys kicking in the door: "I have no sympathy for gun owners who treat home defense as a joke"

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Response to PTWB (Original post)


Response to PTWB (Original post)

Tue Aug 16, 2022, 07:46 PM

95. Good riddance. Happy ending.

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