Pity the Poor Gun Lobby

[ellisonz]

By GAIL COLLINS
Published: March 21, 2012

There is nothing so dangerous as a lobbying organization that’s running out of stuff to lobby about.

I am thinking in particular of the National Rifle Association. These people are really in desperate straits. The state legislatures are almost all in session, but some of them have already pushed the gun-owner-rights issue about as far as it can go. You can only legalize carrying a concealed weapon in church once.

This year, in search of new worlds to conquer — or at least to arm — a couple of states are giving serious attention to bills that would allow gun owners to carry their concealed weapons in places like day-care centers and school buses.

People, do you think there is a loud public outcry for more guns on school buses? I truly believe that this is all the product of a desperate N.R.A., trying to show its base that there are still lots of new battles to be won.

More: New York Times Column

[rl6214]

1. And?????????

[Clames]

2. You expected more?

I know I didn't from the OP. MAIG, Brady Campaign, and LCAV are all more dangerous than the NRA and by orders of magnitude.

[ellisonz]

8. Would you care to expand on your rant...

[Clames]

11. Nope.

Pretty self explanatory if you read your own OP.

[ellisonz]

12. Finally...

*silence*

[fightthegoodfightnow]

30. What a SILLY Response

Anything substantive to say?

[rl6214]

37. A little more than the OP

[Clames]

41. And you?

Anything at all? Nope, didn't think so...

[fightthegoodfightnow]

42. SURE

ARTICLE IS EXCELLENT.

[eqfan592]

14. Lets see...

...those are all organizations that have all been proven time and time again to be dishonest when it comes to a key civil liberties issue, have a lot of resources, and garner a lot of media attention.

I'd say that makes them very dangerous.

[ellisonz]

18. And I'd say...

[Clames]

19. Here's another...

[ellisonz]

49. Good thing she's not on the Neighborhood Watch!

Oh wait, Zimmerman wasn't either...

[ileus]

44. wonder what loopholes the artist believes exists.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

48. Too funny..

[eqfan592]

65. Funny only in its irrelevance as a reply to my post.

Which only served as acknowledgement that I was accurate in my statement (which I was, with our without this acknowledgement).

[fightthegoodfightnow]

74. Of course you were

...but then you would know how right you are unlike anyone else.

[rl6214]

36. I would hope for more.

[ellisonz]

3. What????????

[Johnny Rico]

4. Let's get rid of the '86 ban on new manufacture of machine guns for civilians.

Then we can speak of resting on our laurels...!

[Dr_Scholl]

6. Now we're talking.

I'd love to see the MG ban disappear. It failed the floor vote anyway and shouldn't be law.

[ileus]

45. +1

[NewMoonTherian]

55. That, and college campus carry...

are pretty much at the top of my list, as far as gun law is concerned.

Now, there's still concealed carry and open carry that need to be expanded. Stand-your-ground law is still not widespread enough either.

And don't forget, now that we have reestablished these rights, there's still the task of protecting them. That's going to be a permanent job. It would be nice if the NRA had nothing left to do, but that's not likely to ever be the case.

[Pullo]

66. ^This

[gejohnston]

5. within two months two things are going to happen

Zimmerman will be going to jail, the DTR supporters will be make to look like shrill lunatics, because the law did not work as they feared.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

7. ^^^^this^^^^

[eqfan592]

15. You hit the nail right on the head. (nt)

[krispos42]

27. What does "DTR" stand for? n/t

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

29. Duty to retreat :)

Or data terminal ready for you old RS-232 fans.

[krispos42]

34. Oh, duh

I'll be in the corner facepalming myself...

[fightthegoodfightnow]

40. No need.

the NRA needs your support too much to ding you.

[pneutin]

35. I'm going to have to disagree

Based on all the physical evidence that I have seen reported so far, here are my predictions and conclusions:

1. George Zimmerman is a foolish wannabe cop who made critically poor decisions.
2. If there is new evidence that suggests beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman initiated the physical contact and did not withdraw from it, then he will at most be convicted of manslaughter under Florida law. Murder is too far of a stretch.
3. If there is not new evidence that suggests Zimmerman initiated the physical contact, then he will at most have his CCW revoked for being a dumbass.
4. Stand Your Ground law will not change.

You have to wonder, with the media shitstorm that this incident has generated, what does Sanford PD have to gain by not arresting Zimmerman? They have everything to gain by finding any shred of evidence that would garner any sort of criminal conviction. District attorneys love padding their conviction rate. But, alas, no charges have been filed yet. And to the ire of many people on this very forum, people in this country are innocent until proven guilty.

How about we all take a deep breath and let the complete facts come out. If you were accused of a crime, would you want a subset of the facts regurgitated by the media to decide your fate?

Edit: Sorry I didn't mean to direct this at you. It's just some general thoughts I've had for a while and didn't know where else to post it.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

53. this too, sounds like a good possiblity of a logical conclusion.

[X_Digger]

57. One thought about 'why not arrest'..

If Sanford arrested quickly after the pressure was turned up, folks would ask, "Why did it take national attention to get you to arrest him? What were you planning to do had there been no pressure?" -- they'd be busted for being the racist assholes that their previous history suggests they are.

So they have to either double down, and stubbornly keep asserting their hands are tied, even as more damning evidence is made public, or should a piece of evidence that's new to them turn up, they'll shout, "Aha, this is just what we were waiting for! See, you shouldn't have doubted us!" -- and arrest / charge Zimmerman.

At this point, I think they're trying to save face. Even today's press conference / 'temporary step-down' was a non-apology apology- (paraphrasing), "I'm going to step aside because attention on me is taking away from the investigation.."

[pneutin]

59. Maybe...

...but I think the "temporary step down" is more of an attempt to quell all the race-baiting, by putting the African American city manager Norton Bonaparte in charge of the police department. I hope Bonaparte is ready for all the Uncle Tom accusations.

[X_Digger]

60. I hadn't considered it from that angle. Could be. n/t

[Remmah2]

9. But what if it has the opposite effect?

Attacking and abusing pro2A people who are your average citizen may just piss them off and galvanize them.

Emotion provoking emotion.

It'd be an awful unintended consequence that we don't want to see come November.

The tide goes both ways.

(I wonder how many armed guards are in the lobby of the NY times, right there in NYC?)

[shadowrider]

10. Unpossible. The NYTimes hates guns and wouldn't have them anywhere around

unless of course, it was for their safety which they want to deny the little people.

[Remmah2]

20. I figure Bloomburg's personal bodyguards moonlight there. nt

nt

[fightthegoodfightnow]

31. Safety?

Read the paper much?

[Callisto32]

61. LEGTFY

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Mean+World+Syndrome

[fightthegoodfightnow]

73. What did you find?

Just what I thought.

[oneshooter]

64. You mean like in 1864 when they mounted 2 Gatling Guns on the

roof of their building? To protect themselves from the Irish immigrants in the anti-draft riots. The unfair draft that they supported?

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/317749.html

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[shadowrider]

67. Heh. Yea, kinda like that.

[villager]

13. Once they got everything they wanted, in terms of gun prevalence, only their festering

...psychoses and paranoia were left with which to form "policy..."

[eqfan592]

17. Thank you...

...for exposing your bigotry.

[villager]

26. Thank you.....

...for exposing your reflexive defense of all things NRA!

[eqfan592]

54. I'm not a member of the NRA...

...and you made no mention of the NRA in your post, and in fact appeared to be attacking a larger group.

[villager]

58. The OP states, pretty clearly, that it's talking about the NRA.

Ergo, posts replying to it - like mine -- are also referring to the NRA.

Glad to hear you're not a member of National Republicans' Auxiliary, however...

[fightthegoodfightnow]

32. Amen

.

[Callisto32]

62. To a man still clawing at the cavern walls, the light does seem crazy, nay?

[Starboard Tack]

16. Ah yes! As the pendulum swings.

Maybe they still have a ways to go yet. Guns in cribs? Guns in hospitals? Guns in prisons? That should pretty much cover it.
What will the gun industry think of to keep sales up when everyone has a gun for every occasion? Oh, yeah! Disposable guns.

[msongs]

21. 5 year olds have a right to open carry at schools, not banned in 2A ya know nt

[shadowrider]

22. And the ridiculous get more riduculouser

[eqfan592]

23. You hit the nail on the head. (nt)

[rl6214]

38. Only the anti-gun zealots express something like that.

[Surya Gayatri]

25. Sadly, they too often do just that (with tragic results)...

when they find one of the big boy toys lying around the house.

[Surya Gayatri]

24. How about high-fashion designer guns,

reinterpreted by the great fashion houses, color-keyed to match your outfit and mood--with the top models packin' right out there on the cat walk!

[krispos42]

28. The Gucci Glock?

Diamonds and rubies in the iron sights, gold-plated slide, alligator-skinned grip, fancy engraving on everything remotely flat?

[Clames]

39. Like this?

[ellisonz]

50. That'd even make Muammar Gaddafi blush!

[Clames]

51. Not likely.

Because being dead and all makes that a little difficult.

[Johnny Rico]

75. That's just...wrong.

I normally give a lot of leeway when it comes to someone's taste in firearms, but that crosses the line.

[gejohnston]

76. I take it you won't be getting one of these?

?t=1192758453


That is nothing compared to a local class 3 that has been trying to unload a lavender finished Colt SMG for the past five years.

[Johnny Rico]

77. Kalashnikitty!

I take it you won't be getting one of these?

Um....no.

That is nothing compared to a local class 3 that has been trying to unload a lavender finished Colt SMG for the past five years.

Please tell me that it was a modern M16-based SMG, and not a Colt-made Thompson submachinegun. The thought of a classic Tommygun being ruined like that... (shudder)

[gejohnston]

78. It is the modern one

in 9mm. Still sitting in his vault for $11K if you are interested.

[Johnny Rico]

79. Nah...if I was going to spend that kind of money, for $8K I could get a full-auto MP40!

So much cooler than a lavender Colt 9mm SMG!

That reminds me...a German company called ATI is going to be importing .22 LR versions of the MP-40 and the MP-44 for around $600 or so apiece. Pretty nifty! They'll have to do something with the barrel on the MP-40, though, to make it at least 16" long; probably attach some silly anachronistic flash suppressor to it or lengthen the barrel.

[ellisonz]

80. Like those Nazi guns eh...

Oh wait, you're a historical collector right

[gejohnston]

82. since you are implying that he has

a picture of Hitler above his bed or of being a Nazi,

What is your diagnosis of this (Canadian) collector?
http://members.shaw.ca/tju/jhg.htm

Does she have a picture of Tojo over hers?

[ellisonz]

84. She's an academic.

But she too is taking it to the point of unhealthy obsession over weapons. Why so fascinated by the instruments of death? I'd have to read her work, but it's all kinda creepy to me as an academic who doesn't have an obsession with weapons.

[gejohnston]

89. she teaches business, not history

or is it that only 1 percenters that can afford to fly to London in their private jets an buy Holland & Hollands or James Purdeys the only people who should own guns? (when Brady et al say "sportsman", it is code for rich people in tweeds.)

to answer your question:
history, engineering, and (sometimes) art rolled into one. One of my high school Lit teachers once observed "most civilizations put most of their artistic efforts in two things, their churches and their guns."

[ellisonz]

90. So she's just another gun fetishist...

Or just an unhealthy obsession with the instruments of death

In an ideal world, we'd melt all of the guns down into plowshares and then y'all would have to twiddle your thumbs.

[Johnny Rico]

92. Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not.

(falsely attributed to Thomas Jefferson, BTW)

[ellisonz]

93. So basically that little cliche is made up by gun nuts? n/t

[Johnny Rico]

94. What would cause you to come to that conclusion?

That a quote can't be attributed to a specific person isn't evidence that any particular group, no matter how negatively you wish to characterize them (i.e., "gun nuts&quot came up with it.

In any case, it's more of a military truism than anything else.

[Johnny Rico]

86. Excellent website, and bookmarked.

Puts my collection of Japanese handguns to shame. All I have is a Type 26 revolver, a small trigger guard Type 14, and a Type 94.

The Type 14 & 94 are both quite early and in excellent condition, though.

[Johnny Rico]

85. Nazi-marked guns bring a premium...sure. So what?

The simple fact is, they had really cool guns. Japanese issue military guns can also be quite valuable.

Just for the record, I would estimate that roughly 5% of the guns in my collection are Nazi-marked as such.

Again...so what?

I also have about a dozen military helmets, one of which is German issue. Oh, the horror!

Let's see, what else...I have about a bunch of military issue flare guns, 2 of which are (insert ominous music) Nazi-marked!

You'll have to excuse me, upon reflection this is so upsetting. I may faint...

[ellisonz]

87. Nazi guns aren't cool. Neither is fetishizing their history...

Do you do the Prince Harry act and don the uniform for fun too?

Fuck the Nazis, butchering fucks.

[Johnny Rico]

91. Fine...you don't think guns are neat. I do.

Neither is fetishizing their history...

Who's doing that? I like to collect weapons and other military gear, but it's not as if I focus on Nazi issue equipment to the exclusion of everything else. I have weapons from over 25 countries in my collection.

Do you do the Prince Harry act and don the uniform for fun too?

Nah. Do you have any idea how much original Nazi uniforms cost?

In any case, I've never been into the reenactment scene.*

Fuck the Nazis, butchering fucks.

We already did, for which I'm quite glad. Now that we've done so, what's wrong with trading around the stuff that we took from them after we beat them like a rug? Spoils of war, and all that...



*I just looked at the Wikipedia article on historical reenactment. Apparently, there are three broad categories of reenactors:

1) Farbs. "Farbs" or "polyester soldiers", are reenactors who spend relatively little of their time or money maintaining authenticity with regard to uniforms, accessories, or even period behavior. A 'Good Enough' attitude is pervasive among farbs, although even casual observers may be able to point out flaws. Anachronistic clothing, fabrics, fasteners (such as velcro), snoods, footwear, vehicles, and modern cigarettes are common issues.

2) Mainstream. Mainstream reenactors make an effort at appearing authentic, but may come out of character in the absence of an audience. Visible stitches are likely to be sewn in a period-correct manner, but hidden stitches and undergarments may not be period-appropriate. Food consumed before an audience is likely to be generally appropriate to the period, but it may not be seasonally and locally appropriate. Modern items are sometimes used "after hours" or in a hidden fashion. The common attitude is to put on a good show, but that accuracy need only go as far as others can see.

3) Progressive. At the other extreme from farbs are "hard-core authentics", or "progressives," as they prefer to be called. Sometimes derisively called "stitch counters", "authenticity nazis" or even "stitch nazis", many people have misconceptions about hardcore reenactors.

Hard-core reenactors generally value thorough research, and sometimes deride mainstream reenactors for perpetuating inaccurate "reenactorisms". They generally seek an "immersive" reenacting experience, trying to live, as much as possible, as someone of the period might have. This includes eating seasonally and regionally appropriate food, sewing inside seams and undergarments in a period-appropriate manner, and staying in character throughout an event. The desire for an immersive experience often leads hard-core reenactors to smaller events, or to setting up separate camps at larger events.


Isn't that interesting?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

46. EXACTLY

The gun lobby won't be satisfied until you can go into a post office, a court, a school, a hospital, a prison, a bar, the DMV, an airplane, a private home, a nursery, and a host of other areas to pound their chests and over compensate for their own insecurities all to 'stand their ground' against what they perceive to be a threat.

Yea, it's time to bring some sanity before we all lose our ground.

[ellisonz]

52. In other news...

France just had it's first school shooting ever.

[DonP]

69. Well, the "first" if you overlook all the genocidal murders of children in Hebrew schools in WWII

But I forgot, those dead children don't count as "school shootings" I guess, after all they were state sanctioned.

Gun control people that hold up Europe and other countries as "safe" places with better gun laws tend to ignore the many millions killed by state officials in pogroms, the holocaust and other "lesser" ethnic cleansing incidents like the ones that led up to WWI and in turn fueled WWII.

[ellisonz]

72. If I add the caution "modern"...

...you don't get to politicize the Holocaust as an over-the-top argument against sensible gun control. Oh I forget, without your ridiculous caches of guns that you ought to be allowed to carry everywhere you will be reduced to slavery, the horror, the horror!

[jpak]

33. GOP/NRA/ALEC = flaming over-reaching douchebags

yup

[ileus]

43. It's too bad Karl Rove isn't involved...

[fightthegoodfightnow]

47. Tried and True Tactic

Bring up anything other than guns.

[Starboard Tack]

56. He one of your heroes?

[ellisonz]

81. *crickets*

Must be his hero

[gejohnston]

83. or

found it so disgusting and absurd that it he or she would not dignify it with an answer.

[ellisonz]

88. or

he's got some sympathy for KKKarl

[GreenStormCloud]

63. There is still much territory yet to gain.

Illinois is still has no CCW provision. Some other states and cities have CCW on the books but will not issue a permit. New Jersey has a ban on hollow-point ammunition. Some states still have AWBs. Lots and lots of ground yet to go.

Even after all of that has been won they will be able to stay busy defending those gains against people such as the author of the piece, Ms. Gail Collins who states what she wants:

"I am thinking that the best solution for all concerned would be a strict national gun-control law that makes it very difficult to get a concealed weapons permit, permits gun dealers to sell only one handgun per individual per year, and makes it illegal for even permit holders to keep handguns anywhere but their home, store or car glove compartment unless they are employed in the security business."

[shadowrider]

68. Whew. At least she doesn't want a ban. Or would that come after she got everything else?

[jeepnstein]

70. So you're conceding defeat?

That's nice.