Sanford Police on Trayvon Martin Case

[TPaine7]

If the police can prove what they're saying here:

http://news.yahoo.com/video/orlandowesh-16122564/sanford-police-speak-out-in-trayvon-martin-case-28640523.html

Especially:

1) Witness saw Trayvon pummeling Zimmerman (This is from another report that I mixed up with this one. My Pet Goat caught my error.)
2) Father denied the voice crying out was his son

They may have a case for stand your ground being a legitimate defense.

Fact is, as the police chief said, following someone and asking them what they're up to does not justify them in attacking you.

I would add that the advice of a dispatcher is not law. if Zimmerman's actions could not reasonably be regarded as an imminent threat--for instance if he stood at a good distance from Trayvon and asked his questions without verbal aggression--he was within his rights.

IF--and that's a very big word--that's what he did and Trayvon pummelled him for it, stand your ground would apply.

The problem now is that we have a mob mentality brewing and witnesses can decide to "go with the flow."

I hope, if the cops are telling the truth, they have immaculate records. I hope, for instance, that they have the father and the witness on tape.

I wish this wasn't so racially charged. I am very interested in the truth, not the the spin that will get the "right" results on race relations, Stand Your Ground or gun policy in general.

[Baitball Blogger]

1. You do realize that the fight ended up near someone's porch?

It doesn't sound like Trayvon was advancing at all. If he had been advancing, the fight would have ended up in the street.

Every point you make is the reason why the Sanford Police department is facing scrutiny. Why of all the data that was coming in, and the data which they hadn't bothered to gather through interrogations, did they pick the ones that would support not only Zimmerman, but any policeman caught in the same situation.

That's how these people think. Just like the NRA, they get sensitive to anything that might eventually curtail their discretionary powers. How are we as members of the public safe from a police department that is that calculating during information gathering?

This is the kind of stuff that is used to support discrimination.

[shadowrider]

2. Can you cite where it ended up near a porch?

First I've heard of it.

[Baitball Blogger]

4. It was on a 911 tape.

The guy said that they were right outside his porch.

[shadowrider]

6. I have listened to several 911 tapes and haven't heard that

Can you point, specifically, to the 911 tape?

[Baitball Blogger]

9. If you point me to a website that has a complete transcript it would be easier to locate.

I'll try to find it, but I won't get to it right away.

[shadowrider]

10. No worries

[Atypical Liberal]

24. There are a few 911 calls that say the fight is right outside a window.

There are 2 or 3 911 calls that say the fight is right outside a window behind their houses.

All the 911 calls and more are here:

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/frames/home_frames.html

[Tuesday Afternoon]

17. listen to Anderson Cooper's interview from his afternoon TV program from yesterday. 2 women.

[shadowrider]

18. I'm not denying it, just saying I hadn't heard it is all.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

20. I know, I'm just telling you where you can hear from the witnesses.

[TPaine7]

8. I am aware of other evidence--

The witness who said the boy cried out--though she couldn't see him--and claimed the detective corrected her.

*The chasing itself.

*The vaguely uttered "fuckin' coons" possible statement

*The girlfriends account (which unfortunately ended abruptly at the moment of truth)--and which the police couldn't have know of at the time.

I am not saying that the police investigation is blameless or even accptable, I am only saying that it's possible that things are not what they seem.

As a black man myself, I am sensitive to racist police behavior. And race aside, few people are more skeptical of "the authorities" in many of their exercises of power (regarding spying, policing, warmaking, politics...) than I am.

Even still, I always want to hear the best arguments on the other side. Cops, even cops in a southern police department with a shady past, CAN draw correct coclusions from evidence. Only time can tell if they have done so in this case.

Whatever happens, I hope the evidence is overwhelming to open minds. Unfortunately, open minds may be in the minority.

[murielm99]

3. IF they can prove this!

Why didn't they publicize these thins from the beginning, if they are true? It could have helped them avoid all the publicity, and threats of mob violence.

At this point, I don't think we will get the truth. The best we can hope for is some scrutiny of the stand your ground law, and possible modifications of that law.

[shadowrider]

5. It HAS been published. You just have to know where to look

and it ISN'T on CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CSPAN, or any other alphabet network.

[TPaine7]

12. Why didn't they publicize it from the beginning?

How many times have you heard police say "we do not comment on ongoing investigations" or something similar?

IF--and once again, that is a very big word--the police are behaving properly, I feel for them. Unimaginable heat is being brought to bear.

If, on the other hand, they are covering this up for corrupt motives, they have the heat coming.

In either case, prejudgement and the mob mentality hurt everyone. They stir up racial animus and can make decent people less likely to believe real victims if the police turn out to be justified. If the police turn out to be unjustified, the success of mob mentality will encourage it--even in cases where the racism charges are false.

[shadowrider]

19. I disagree. The best we can hope for

is the truth comes out about what happened. Scrutiny of the stand your ground law isn't warranted if it's found Zimmerman acted outside the scope of that law.

[burf]

7. Isn't there a grand jury being

convined early next month on the case? I thought I heard something about that

[My Pet Goat]

11. Sanford Police on Trayvon Martin Case

Where does it say a witness saw Trayvon pummeling Zimmeron? I'll answer, it does not. All it says it a witness corroborates Trayvon was the attacker (whatever that means), not that a witness "saw" it.

What does it mean that Trayvon was witnessed attacking Zimmerman anway? In that same article, Zimmerman admits to getting out of the car AND FOLLOWING Trayvon at night. Who was the aggressor here? Who was in reasonable fear of bodily injury?

The voice question will resolve under technical scrutiny regardless of the father's initial impression. Sure didn't sound like a 250 pound adult to me though.

[TPaine7]

13. You are correct, my apologies.

I had recently read something else and conflated the reports.

I will upgrade the OP.

[TPaine7]

14. "The voice question will resolve under technical scrutiny..."

That's exactly the type of evidence I want.

[pneutin]

28. Actually, a witness did see Trayvon beating up on Zimmerman

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1pQAY9Lgm

There's even a video of him saying so, although his face is not shown. But oddly enough, you don't see this mentioned much (if at all) in any of the CNN/ABC/CBS/MSNBC reports.

[TPaine7]

29. Thanks for that link. I had read about this, but couldn't find the link.

I hope this doesn't backfire and "prove" that racists everywhere are right and black folks only complain of racism illegitimately. I hope, if it does turn out to be murder or manslaughter it will not "prove" to hotheads that all police are corrupt or even that all southern police are corrupt.

America needs to calm down and wait for the full facts.

[gejohnston]

30. I don't know if it is racism or

Sanford PD is just fucking stupid, but I only see legitimate complaints. From what I read, Sanford has always had shitty race relations, and the white flight (hate shoveling snow my ass. Some of these former New Yorkers are just as bad as some of the rednecks) from the northeast has not helped.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

31. A seriously good report.

Thanks

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. Interesting turn of events...

The cops are saying they did the required investigation and blame the DA...

[shadowrider]

16. Reported days ago

not that you'll see it on any alphabet network.

The DA decided not to pursue charges. Now, whether that was due to slanted police reports we'll never know.

[voteearlyvoteoften]

21. One scenario

Killerman attempts to stop Trayvon and grabs his arm. Trayvon reacts and hits Kman to get away from perceived ( and as it turns out real) danger. Kman is pissed that he gets popped in the nose and shoots Trayvon in anger.
Let me point out that I live in Sanford and I have been in this neighborhood. It is in a very good area and not scary. Few parents would hesitate to let their high school kids walk around .

[shadowrider]

22. Yup. Really good area. NOT!!!!

The neighborhood this took place in has seen a lot of crime. Would you be surprised to learn that there were eight burglaries, nine thefts, and a shooting just in the past year? In fact, the local homeowners' association reports that George Zimmerman actually caught one thief and aided in the apprehension of other criminals. The Miami Herald wrote about this on March 17th. None of the thousands of articles and cable news segments that came after, thought this was important.

[Hoyt]

26. Sounds like you are nominating Zimmerman for gun carrier of the year.

[TPaine7]

23. Quite possible n/t

[Atypical Liberal]

25. There was obviously a physical fight between Martin and Zimmerman.

There was obviously a fight between Martin and Zimmerman. This is nearly beyond doubt. Several witnesses indicate that there was a fight going on.

Now it's going to boil down to who had the right to stand their ground.

Did Martin fear he was being stalked by someone out to harm him and so pre-emptively fought Zimmerman? Did Zimmerman grab Martin and attempt to detain him?

What happens if two people both can reasonably believe that the other is seeking to harm them? Are they both allowed to stand their ground, effectively creating a lawful dueling situation?

[TPaine7]

27. Excellent question! n/t

[Kennah]

32. Dueling today leads to a charge of voluntary manslaughter

I am not an attorney, but there are two principal reasons for a voluntary manslaughter conviction:
1) Crime of passion--love triangle
2) Mutual combat

I suppose it is theoretically possible for two people to engage in a fight where both can be legally present and in which neither one is the aggressor; however, it seems to strain credulity. Someone will likely be determined to be the aggressor during the investigation.

In the case of two assholes willingly engaged in a fight to the death over anything, the one that lives gets charged.