Firearm sales hit record levels this holiday season

[ellisonz]

CHARLOTTE -- The FBI reports the number of background checks for firearms hit record levels this holiday shopping season. Industry analysts said better marketing, concerns about the economy, and an increased number of women buying weapons are largely responsible.

"This is the gun retailers' dream season," said Donald Ingram, the store manager for Carolina Sporting Arms on South Boulevard in Charlotte.

--------

But Ingram said the sales are less about marketing, but rather uncertainty about the economy and concerns about crime.

"Fear, in a word," he said.

http://charlotte.news14.com/content/top_stories/651422/firearm-sales-hit-record-levels-this-holiday-season

Do you think this is a healthy thing for democracy? Do you think people are right to be afraid? What are they afraid of that is spurring this panic? Do you think everyone should be trained to possess and operate a firearm? Do you think these due diligence for ensuring that legal firearms purchases are not being diverted for criminal purpose?

[michreject]

1. I just picked up my Christmas present today

Got it from my wife.

A Dan Wesson 1911, CBOB.

The first gun I bought this year was a 1911 and the last gun I got this year was a 1911.

[burf]

5. Congrats,

you seem to be celebrating the 100th anniversery in style.

[michreject]

30. I currently have 13 1911's

I've owned close to 100 in my lifetime.

I keep buying and selling. They're addicting.

[ileus]

35. Of all the pistols I've owned (close to 100) the 1911

is the only one I haven't bought yet. I'm really looking hard at the Ruger or Taurus 1911's.

I'd like to have one with a rail for my HD weapon if I get one. I love my other 45, they're just fun to shoot for some reason.

[Pigheaded]

46. Get the Ruger

[rl6214]

71. I'm looking at the Rock Island 1911

The price is right

[rl6214]

70. Still looking to get my first 1911

I've got a Springfield XD45 but it's just not a 1911.

As one of our local anti-gun zealots says, what do you possibly need so many semi-autos for? Nobody needs that many, you should be regulated.

[one-eyed fat man]

80. I have a couple 1911's

My Colt National Match.



My old "warhorse" shipped from Colt in 1913.

[Kennah]

15. Did you have to knock her down to get it from her?

[michreject]

29. She gave it up willingly

She only shoots revolvers.

[gejohnston]

2. let's see

Do I think it is a healthy thing for a democracy? I'm guessing you don't plan on going to Germany or Switzerland during Schützenfest (Hanover has the largest one in the world.)

I am not sure of Ingram's analysis, but it depends on the individual circumstance.

I don't think it is a panic.

It should be up to the individual. If we lived in Israel, perhaps.

Please clarify.

[ellisonz]

7. If things are so great because the crime rate is down as a result of guns...

Why do people still need more guns?

I should also note that Germany has very restrictive gun control:

A firearms ownership license (Waffenbesitzkarte) must be obtained before a weapon can be purchased. Owners of multiple firearms need separate ownership licenses for every single firearm they own. It entitles owners to purchase firearms and handle them on their own property and any private property with property owner consent. On public premises, a licensed firearm must be transported unloaded and in a stable, fully enclosing, locked container. A weapons ownership license does not entitle the owner to shoot the weapon or carry it on public premises without the prescribed container. Owners must obtain mandatory insurance and a means to securely store the weapon on their premises (a weapons locker). Blanket ownership licenses are issued to arms dealers, firearms experts and – with limitations – to collectors. Today, there are ca. four million legal private gun owners.[11]

A number of criteria must be met before a firearms ownership license is issued:

age of consent (18 years for rimfire calibers/21 years for higher calibers) (§ 4 WaffG)
trustworthiness (§ 5 WaffG)
personal adequacy (§ 6 WaffG)
expert knowledge (§ 7 WaffG) and
necessity (§ 8 WaffG)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Germany#Current_laws

All purchasers under the age of 25 must undergo psychological evaluation by the police.

[gejohnston]

8. I never said the crime drop had anything to do with guns

maybe more people are taking up target shooting after reading books about William Tell. Since the PR tax is ear marked for wildlife habitat restoration (since 1937), maybe they are doing their part for the environment while taking up skeet and target shooting.
Or, they are one of the few things still union made in the US (assuming they buy a US made gun) they are doing their part for the economy.
Apparently their laws changed since the early 1960s. The first handgun I learned to shoot with was a .22 revolver my brother bought from a gun store in Hamburg. The biggest legal hassle was getting it from there to Wyoming. Did German crime rates change before and after?

[ellisonz]

9. Again this is the problem with not using a multivariate analysis.

Crime is up in Germany not because people don't have them - anyone of sound mind and non-criminal nature can have them and carry in most public places with permit. Crime is up in Germany since unification because it is not subject to international organized crime organizations, a renewed gang problem, and like everywhere else increasing economic inequality. These issues have been well covered in the German press. However, the annual per capita murder rate in 2010 was 4.8 for the United States compared to 0.84 for Germany per 100,000 inhabitants.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Introduction_to_Sociology/Sociological_Methods

[gejohnston]

11. You read more into my post than I meant

I don't know when the laws changed. Keeping up with German gun laws have not been my priority. Something told me to specify FRG before unification, since the upheaval (and added impoverished population) would affect it. While many on your side do have that simplistic analysis, I have not. Most on my side do not.

[DanTex]

31. Uh oh... You just said "multivariate analysis"

A lot of pro-gunners think that's some kind of witchcraft. Watch out for the mob with the stake in the kindling.

[gejohnston]

49. you have us confused with Europe

We dunk witches here. Sometimes we hang them after they confess. Sometimes we just say "screw it" and leave them submerged in the pond. I guess it would be easier to take them out in the middle of the lake to see if they float.

[PavePusher]

72. Did you dress her up like that? n/t

[ellisonz]

50. I know right...

I think we need a non-profit to distribute sociological method pamphlets at NRA conventions.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

51. If you dislike it so much

Leave. The US is not Europe, we don't want to be, and we're not going to tolerate those who want us to be.

If you refuse to accept things as they are, and refuse to have respect for those who place individual rights above the collective, then you have no choice but to leave.

[DanTex]

62. You've got your talking points mixed up.

The topic here is multivariate analysis. I guess it strikes you as "European" in the sense that it's some exotic thing that you know nothing about, but in reality, you can be as jingo-USA-rah-rah as you want and still believe in multivariate statistics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multivariate_statistics

[gejohnston]

52. problem is that

I have not seen any of those studies your side done by sociologists. The ironic thing is when we show up with the criminologists and sociologists, you guys whine about them being ummm unscientific?

But your shill economists and MDs?

[We_Have_A_Problem]

53. Funny isnt it?

Studies done by people conversant in the field following established scientific protocols, using hard data and with reproducible outcomes are somehow less significant than those done by people who know nothing of the field, use surveys, supposition and flawed data, and have utterly unreproducible outcomes.

The one I always thought the most laughable was when doctors decided to pretend violence was a disease and firearms were the infection which caused it.

[ellisonz]

54. ...

They're not hard to find.

http://www.amazon.com/Gun-Violence-Studies-Public-Policy/dp/0195153847/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1324593255&sr=8-1
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0254/is_n1_v56/ai_19266179/pg_2/?tag=content;col1

[gejohnston]

55. I stand by what I said

the first proved my point and their research backs up this guy, even though they spent ten pages back peddling to keep their Joyce Foundation grant.

http://www.amazon.com/Point-Blank-Violence-America-Institutions/dp/0202304191

http://books.google.com/books/about/Armed_and_considered_dangerous.html?id=kqm8QxE45X0C

[Straw Man]

64. Thanks for the link.

I found this conclusion particularly interesting:

[div class = excerpt]However, and more important, this study also shows that the major association for firearm fatalities is with socioeconomic factors such as poverty levels and alcohol consumption. Unless this country directs its efforts toward the socio-economic ills which appear to bear the strongest relationship to violent deaths by firearms, the fatalities likely will remain high whether this country has gun control laws or not.

[ellisonz]

66. Nice try.

This study examined the effectiveness of gun control laws and regulations using state level data. The multivariate statistical regression model suggests that the existence of gun control laws indeed have a deterrent effect on firearm deaths, although this relationship is weaker than previously reported. If, however, the United States had had a uniform gun control law similar to the 1977 Canadian law, the impact may have been stronger than that found here, which relies on systems of laws that vary significantly between states. Accordingly, it appears that the Brady Bill, if implemented properly, may have significant impact on deterring the number of deaths associated with the firearm use.

[Straw Man]

68. "Nice try"? I'm simply quoting the article.

Are you suggesting something else?

I notice that you chose not to bold the following:

[div class = excerpt]The multivariate statistical regression model suggests that the existence of gun control laws indeed have a deterrent effect on firearm deaths, although this relationship is weaker than previously reported.

Furthermore, the Brady Bill has been implemented. It resulted in the creation of the NICS system, instituted with the support of the NRA. It's up and running, and it works pretty well.

Are we about done here?

[ellisonz]

69. Ok.

Proper implementation is debatable...

Also, the article concludes quite clearly that gun control in general is a good, so why we shouldn't have more of it is beyond me...seems to be political.

I dunno if were done. You and your friends keep responding...why is that?

[DanTex]

65. The fact that you haven't seen the studies doesn't mean they don't exist.

Particularly since pro-gunners tend to simply ignore facts that don't confirm their political biases, and mostly feel that academic research is a bunch of ivory tower liberals conspiring to take away their guns. In reality, though, there is plenty of research out there on gun violence. But I don't think anyone is very surprised that you're not familiar with it.

[gejohnston]

67. is it

Particularly since pro-gunners tend to simply ignore facts that don't confirm their political biases,

projection or hypocrisy? You tell me. I your case, it is a little of both. Another one of those things that works both ways.
The rest is the usual nonsense. Most liberals I know have more guns than Ted Nugent.
How about violence in general? By anti gunner logic (suicide by gun is violent), suicide is a violent act, therefore Europe has more rope violence. If you follow that to the logical conclusion, much of Europe, Japan and South Korea is more violent than we are.
But anti gunners and logical consistency don't always go together.

[gejohnston]

74. ironic thing is

your side does not seem to use it. You are the guys that claim gun laws or ownership make a major difference without looking at before and after of the same place.
So maybe we should pass the pamphlets out at Brady conventions along with a book on logical fallacies and critical thinking.
Wait, Astro turf organizations really don't have conventions do they?

[aikoaiko]

76. and this is the problem with trying to use multivariate analysis to determine causation.

I thought you were a student of sociological methods.

Read section four of the wiki entry you cite.

[ellisonz]

77. Sociologists don't just run statistical analysises...

...and make no attempt at interpretation.

I'm a historian anyway...and I much prefer critical sociology to objective sociology. Read section 6.

[aikoaiko]

78. true, but they dont imply causation as you did.

You're the one who brought up multivariate statistics and then misused them, historian or not.

[ellisonz]

79. That would be your opinion. n/t

[Simo 1939_1940]

18. "All purchasers under the age of 25 must undergo psychological evaluation by the police."

Hmmmm. Interesting, this. Seems like a very convenient way to keep firearms out of the hands of "those people". Rather subjective criterion, to put it mildly.

[ellisonz]

20. It's a response to school shootings.

Would have stopped Cho at VT and Loughner.

[Straw Man]

23. So the police should do psych evaluations?

Hmm... Maybe next time I'm getting my oil changed I'll ask the guys down at the garage if they could give me a quick physical.

C'mon, man. It's not "CSI" and "Criminal Minds" down there at the cop shop. Only the huge metro departments have psychologists on staff, and they specialize in PTSD and occupational issues related to police work. What you're talking about is building a new bureaucracy by which law enforcement would make and enforce independent and arbitrary judgements on the mental health of the American public. That's a very dangerous precedent in terms of human rights. It's a complete end-run around the legal system, for starters.

[div class = excerpt]Would have stopped Cho at VT and Loughner.
Cho had already been evaluated and had been mandated to outpatient treatment by a judge. This should have disqualified him under federal law, but the state of Virginia dropped the ball on their reporting. Let's talk about how to get the current system working before we start contemplating building a new, bigger, and potentially abusive one.

[ellisonz]

24. Yes, I want a bureacracy...

...your argument about reporting failures just proves the necessity of having one. As it is, your fellow citizens are getting "a quick physical" from a judge. What's the difference? If you have a dispute over the psych's finding you can take it up with a judge. You need to be asking yourself why the system isn't working - I think the answer is quite clear: we don't have an efficient bureaucracy for handling this - we have a patchwork approach instead of a comprehensive one.

Also, cut the snark or I break out the cartoons.

[Straw Man]

25. Oh, no...

Here's the deal: the judge does not do the psych evaluation. He or she reviews it and makes a legal decision based on its results. We don't let psychologists make legal judgements, and we don't let judges -- or cops -- do psych evaluations. That's very important for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is the protection of human rights.

So if I read you right, you want the police to be empowered to do psychological evaluations and potentially deny citizens the right to purchase a firearm based on the results of those evaluations. And such decisions could be appealed to a judge? Who wouldn't want to appeal such a decision? Would appellants be allowed to provide their own psychologists as expert witnesses to rebut the police findings? Could they be represented by counsel in the proceedings? Would this be administered at the municipal, state, or federal level? Have you thought any of this through?

I had to suppress a chuckle at your phrase "efficient bureaucracy," especially since you're talking about something that plays havoc not only with our legal system and Constitution, but with medical ethics as well. And you want to do this for every firearm purchaser?

"Cut the snark"? Please tell me you're joking. I'd like to believe that.

[ellisonz]

26. Ok.

It's teamwork. All due process and court rules would apply. It would work it's way up like any other court decision.

Social Security has a functioning and efficient bureaucracy; most thing in life are run by bureaucracy in one form or the other and it works out alright. It was invented for a reason after all.

You can make your argument without snark - welcome to the DU3.

[Straw Man]

27. No, not really.

The bureaucracy you're proposing would make Social Security look like a Quaker meeting. The legal and ethical issues are huge. It would grow lawsuits like a Chia-pet grows... whatever it is they grow.

I'm sorry -- was that too snarky? To be honest, it strains my patience to be lectured on snark by someone who calls counter-arguments "idiotic."

[ellisonz]

28. Knifes vs. guns - you know what they say - don't bring a knife to a gun fight...

...yeah it's idiotic.

The legal and ethical issues are huge already. Lawsuits are already growing like Chia pets. The courts and prisons are packed. As someone who visits prisons, you should very well know how slowly our justice system is moving and how full our prisons are because of gun crimes and violence.

What's wrong with Quaker meetings?

[Straw Man]

40. You entirely missed several points.

[div class = excerpt]The legal and ethical issues are huge already. Lawsuits are already growing like Chia pets.
You mean that the existing background check system is in contravention of our established legal and politicial systems? Really? Please tell me how. I haven't heard of any lawsuits against NICS for denial of purchase, but perhaps there are some I've been missing. Based as they are on public record, you'd think it would be hard to argue an arbitrary denial.

[div class = excerpt]As someone who visits prisons, you should very well know how slowly our justice system is moving and how full our prisons are because of gun crimes and violence.
Surprisingly, the majority of the people I encounter are there for drug and gang offenses, which, although merely anecdotal, seems to contradict your prior data on gangs and homicide statistics. Actually, the prison population of my state is declining. As for our justice system moving slowly, that's a good thing, up to a point. Summary justice can be very dangerous. I'm not fond of the martial-law model.

[div class = excerpt]What's wrong with Quaker meetings?
Nothing -- they tend to be very calm and unconfrontational, unlike what you propose to unleash on the American public. Once again, you missed my point, which was contrast.

[ellisonz]

57. Oy Vey

1. People who won't pass just go to the secondary and black market - see the Bloomberg tapes.

2. You're not seriously claiming we don't have a disproportionate enforcement in our justice system? I don't know what state you live in - but California would love to send you prisoners. My statistics are correct - please consider this look at San Diego:

For example in San Diego:

Nearly one-third were attributed to an argument, 26 percent to gang activity, 22 percent to domestic violence, 6 percent each related to drugs or money issues, 4 percent each for other motives and child abuse, and 2 percent happened during a robbery, according to SANDAG's study.

A disproportionate number of local homicide victims were black or Hispanic and under the age of 39, according to the study.

A firearm was used in 54 percent of the homicides, according to SANDAG.

http://www.10news.com/news/24957318/detail.html

Please take a good hard look in the mirror and then re-asses how you're think about the justice system, here's a book: http://www.amazon.com/Color-Justice-Ethnicity-Wadsworth-Contemporary/dp/1111346925/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1324596771&sr=8-1




3.

[Straw Man]

60. What on earth are you talking about?

You're saying that people who don't pass your police-administered mental health assessment will go to the black market? Not if they're law-abiding citizens who feel that they were unfairly denied. They'll take it to the courts, as they should. In your world, is every gun purchaser a criminal in the making?

Gang-related homicides in San Diego are down from 40% to 26% of all homicides last year? Hallelujah! Still looks like a monumental problem to me, and I'm sure the residents of the neighborhoods where the gangs hang out would concur.

Where did I say anything about disproportionate enforcement, either affirmative or negative? I'm well aware of the racial disparities in our justice system, as well as in our economic and political systems. I've been going into correctional facilities for over 20 years, and I know that despite the injustices of the system, many of the people in there are sociopathic predators who belong right where they are. Nevertheless, I still think what I do is worth doing, and I believe in the possibility of rehabilitation and redemption. You can skip all your "good hard look in the mirror" preaching because (a) it's incoherent and (b) it's offensive. You have no, repeat no, claim to any moral high ground. Links to books on Amazon? What is that for? A Christmas present?

[ellisonz]

63. Ha.

[Pigheaded]

48. "Social Security has a functioning and efficient bureaucracy"

That is not correct
I see patients every day on SS disabilty who have no reason to be on it

Girl with a deviated septum
Man w back pain who works as a firewood cutter
Girl with a seizure disorder- Never been on meds or had a seizure
Young man born premature-no health problems

All on SS disability

And that is just in the last two days

PH

[ellisonz]

56. So you're saying there's fraud?

It's never going to be perfect but it works pretty damn well.

http://www.ehow.com/how_5027053_report-social-security-disability-fraud.html

Consider the number of those people versus the number of people who receive Social Security.

I think Medicare fraud is much more rampant.

[friendly_iconoclast]

61. There are more examples from that particular source. Here's one

Who knew that Texas and Arizona gun shops ship military-grade weaponry over Mexico's southern border? I didn't:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11721111#post355

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11721111#post357

[SteveW]

44. All the more reason to question that procedure.

As if school shootings would be stopped by a police psych test.

Cho was deemed mentally incompetent, but government bureaucracy failed to push the findings upstream to the NICS data base. And Virginia is second only to California in the volume of such data they do forward. That's the problem with many laws: They cannot be "effectively enforced" with limited resources, and even that does not stop the procurement of guns.

There are many, many laws prohibiting illegal drug sales/possessions. But in less than 2 hours my Green Cross/Green Shield policy will require a test.

"This is a test. Had there been an actual emergency..."

[GreenStormCloud]

58. An excellent substitute for the psych evals already exists.

It is called a person's police record. A person with an unstable, agressive personality will usually get into trouble with the police and get convicted early in life. It will already be illegal for them to own a gun.

It is extremely rare for a normal person to suddenly "snap".

[ellisonz]

59. "will usually get into trouble with the police and get convicted early in life."

That's a tad presumptuous, no?

In fact, Duwe found that mass murder was just as common during the 1920s and early 1930s as it is today. The difference is that then, mass murderers tended to be failed farmers who killed their families because they could no longer provide for them, then killed themselves. Their crimes embodied the despair and hopelessness of the Dust Bowl and the Great Depression, the sense that they and their families would be better off in the hereafter than in the here and now.

--------

Criminologist Fox speculates that the increasing popularity of workplace killings, and public shootings generally, may be partly due to decreasing economic security and increasing inequality. America increasingly rewards its winners with a disproportionate share of wealth and adoration, while treating its losers to a heaping helping of public shame.

"We ridicule them. We vote them off the island. We laugh at them on `American Idol,'" Fox said.

But there has also been an erosion of community in America over the past half-century, and many scholars believe it has contributed to the rise in mass shootings.

http://www.bookrags.com/news/mass-shootings-more-common-since-moc/

[GreenStormCloud]

75. Not at all presumptious.

It is extremely rare for a person to kill for their first crime. Almost always the killer will have been in serious trouble with the law before.

[hack89]

32. I shoot for recreation - great family activity

two guns are historical - bought simply to own real piece of history.

[ileus]

36. I easily have another 20 or 30 guns on my "must have" list.

Has nothing do do with crime, and everything to do with the fun and expanding my collection.

I'm in such a quandary right now. So many different want's so little budget to get it done in.

[SteveW]

43. Straw man, there...

"If things are so great because the crime rate is down as a result of guns..."

This is your outlook, and the view of some others, but is not generally held in this forum. Lott's studies which show less crime resulting from increased numbers of arms in civilian hands is not generally accepted, even among pro-2A researchers. His position, in other words, is unproven. Questions stemming from your assumption are therefore flawed from the beginning.

The main reason people purchase firearms is for self-defense; hunters constitute just under 20% of firearm-owners, and in any case, probably hold guns for multiple reasons. Other shooting sports do not explain gun ownership.

I'm not really interested in Germany's policies; that's a different country with a different culture and history. I can't say why Germany authorizes its LEOs to conduct psychological evaluations, but at least in this country I am not impressed by the repository of psychological knowledge -- theory and practice -- of various police agencies. Any measures in this regard should be through a court of law, with an aim to determine competency.

[PavePusher]

3. Gosh, it can't possibly be "a healthy thing for democracy"....

for the unwashed masses to actually exercise their Civil Rights.... Why, they might actually think they have freedom, liberty and independence!! The horroreurs!

And as soon as you can show me your proof of training for your First, Fourth, Thirteenth, Twenty-First and Twenty-Fourth Amendment Rights, I'll show mine for my Second Amendment Rights.

[oneshooter]

4. Just tonight finished my sons rifle. Loving Wife is wrapping it now.

Went into town today and picked up 500rds od SS109 that I got in an auction, $210 incl. tax.

Something tells me that somebody is gona have a real good X-mas this year.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Straw Man]

6. Helps the economy, for starters.

I'm doing my part -- a new local gun dealer is having a grand opening sale to jumpstart his business, so I bought myself a couple of presents: a Smith & Wesson 642 and a Kel-Tec PF-9, both made right here in the USA. Let's keep America working, manufacturing stuff. Gainful employment. No fear.

Do I think everyone should be trained to "possess and operate" a firearm? No, I think some people don't want anything to do with firearms, and I can respect their choice. I don't know anyone involved with firearms who doesn't seek all the training he or she can afford.

Due diligence? I did all the required federal and state paperwork for my purchases. They are safely stored. Due diligence done.

[DonP]

10. The daughter is getting the .38 Snubbie she used at our last range session for Christmas

Now that Mr Otis McDonald was kind enough to kick Chicago and Mayor Daley's ass in court, she can own a handgun in the city. My only mistake is taking my kids to the range so often. Every time I do it seems it winds up costing me another gun.

She was using one of my older Charter Arms Undercover Specials and really liked the original small wooden grips with her small hands. The larger Hogue grips were just too big for her. After trying several semi autos and even 2 single action revolvers, she decided that well used snubbie was just her favorite.

I also got them (she's a teacher and SIL is a Chicago fireman) a biometric safe to store it in and two boxes of the Gold Dot for the short barreled snubbies.

Trying to do my part for better retail season. (Besides, I felt guilty since I bought two used rifles and another AR-15A2 Kit as a winter project)

[rl6214]

12. "Fear, in a word," he said. BULLSHIT

Non issue, only an issue from an anti-gun zealot.


Do you think this is a healthy thing for democracy?

Yes

Do you think people are right to be afraid?

Not an issue unless you are talking about criminals being afraid.


What are they afraid of that is spurring this panic?

See previous answer.

Do you think everyone should be trained to possess and operate a firearm?

No, only those that want to.



Do you think these due diligence for ensuring that legal firearms purchases are not being diverted for criminal purpose?

If I understand your question correctly, does it read IS THERE due diligence?

No, not when the ATF is the one diverting the firearms for criminal purposes.

[ellisonz]

14. He's the manager of the sportings good store...

...so I'm not sure where you get the idea that he's an anti-gun zealot since he's selling guns in North Carolina.

[spin]

13. Replies to your questions...

Do you think this is a healthy thing for democracy?

The sale of firearms has skyrocketed in the last decade. While it defies commonsense, the violent crime rate has fallen dramatically. While it is impossible to say that more guns = less crime, it is true that more guns does not equal more crime.

I think that it does little harm to a democracy to allow honest citizens to own firearms. Some will argue that well armed citizens may preserve our representative democracy if it is threatened in the future. It is a fact that the first shots of the American Revolution were fired when the British tried to implement gun control. Ref: Battles of Lexington and Concord http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Lexington_and_Concord

Therefore, in my opinion, it's far better to live in a democracy that trusts a significant percentage of its citizens to own firearms than one that doesn't.

Do you think people are right to be afraid?

In the current Great Recession our society has been placed under great stress. People are suffering and it is possible that the crime rate may eventually start to rise or that violent riots may break out. Many cities are facing budget restrictions which may reduce their police force. There are dark clouds on the horizon. Hopefully the storm will bypass us, but it might be wise to be prepared. I live in Florida but I don't "fear" hurricanes. However when one approaches, I make preparations.

Firearms are an excellent self defense tools and can be used to protect yourself or your family in an emergency. It may be better to have firearms and not need them than to need firearms and not have them. However the decision to buy a firearm if you have none deserves considerable consideration as firearms are not for everybody. You also have to realize that merely buying a firearm is not all that is required to ensure your safety. In order to be effective with your firearms you have to practice with them and in order to be safe you have to know and follow the basic firearm safety rules.

What are they afraid of that is spurring this panic?

Why do you feel that people who believe that those who decide to buy firearms are panicked? I would suggest that they are just viewing life rationally and realizing that dialing 911 may not bring quick results in the near future. Some people like to be prepared and self reliant and others like to stick their head in the sand and trust that nothing bad will ever happen to them. It's an individual choice. People differ.

Do you think everyone should be trained to possess and operate a firearm?

Yes. When there are over 300,000,000 firearms in our society and almost half of American homes have a firearm inside, it makes no sense that we do not have a mandatory firearm safety course in our high schools. This course should teach students far more than to just "tell an adult if you see a firearm." I also can not understand why all high school students are not required to take a first aid course.

Do you think these due diligence for ensuring that legal firearms purchases are not being diverted for criminal purpose?

You lost me on that question. All I can answer is that I have no problem with the current NICS system of background checks required when purchasing firearms from a dealer and would like to see it extended to all sales of firearms including private sales. I favor strict enforcement of existing laws for the straw purchasing of firearms and the smuggling and illegal sale of firearms in our inner cities.

[Simo 1939_1940]

21. Thanks for stating my sentiments on every point for me, spin.

Saved me a few minutes of my life.

[spin]

37. No problem. Thanks for your support. (n/t)

[Kennah]

16. Absent violent crime, this Second Great Depression isn't good for democracy

Violent crime isn't a cause, it's an effect.

[AtheistCrusader]

17. Have you listened to teabagger rhetoric?

Hell yes I have a reason to be afraid of those fucks.

[friendly_iconoclast]

22. I sure as hell don't want to see them as the only ones armed.

[SteveW]

45. One of those clowns questioned me at a OWS rally...

He asked: "You gotta gun?" (The look on his face suggested that my answer would be 'no.')

I answered: "I have plenty, but thanks for asking."

That wiped the look off his face.

[beevul]

19. LOL.

"Do you think this is a healthy thing for democracy?"

We don't have, or live in a true democracy, thankfully. Somehow 50% + 1 outlawing gays, dildos, guns, or what ever trips their "morality meter" doesn't appeal to me.

" Do you think everyone should be trained to possess and operate a firearm?"

I think gun safety should be required to be taught in all public schools.

[DissedByBush]

34. Answers

"Do you think this is a healthy thing for democracy?"

Yes.

"Do you think people are right to be afraid?"

That's not my business, and I don't know their individual circumstances.

"What are they afraid of that is spurring this panic?"

Maybe they live in a bad area. It's nice be able to second-guess people from a nice, safe neighborhood.

"Do you think everyone should be trained to possess and operate a firearm?"

Should? Of course. But that isn't an excuse to create an expensive licensing and training program that mainly serves as a barrier to gun ownership. I was trained by the time I was ten without an official course.

Most people don't really know how to drive either, especially in poor weather. Should they be properly trained? Of course, and they kill more people than guns every year.

"Do you think these due diligence for ensuring that legal firearms purchases are not being diverted for criminal purpose? "

Did you even read the article? This comes from federal record checks. Most gun shops also watch out for straw buyers. The ATF used to heavily prosecute gun shops that willingly sold to straw buyers, but nowdays they force the shops to allow the straw purchases so they can bump up the illegal sales statistics.

[Remmah2]

38. Buy a Snuggie or buy a rifle?

What's your opinion?

[We_Have_A_Problem]

39. Why not both?

Snuggies are cheap, and besides, with the arm holes, you could conceivably use it while in a blind or at an outdoor range.

[PavePusher]

73. And if the Zombies(tm) come on a cold day...

you won't even have to leave the couch!

[Atypical Liberal]

41. Just goes to show gun control is a lost cause.

Do you think this is a healthy thing for democracy?

I think it's a healthy thing for democracy, but most importantly a healthy thing for freedom. Since ancient times arms have been the province of the free. In ancient Rome and Britain bearing arms was a mark of a free man.

A man with a weapon can resist oppression much more easily than a man without one. So an armed society is definitely a good thing.

Do you think people are right to be afraid?
What are they afraid of that is spurring this panic?

Firstly, we need to define what people are supposedly afraid of.

I think more than anything people are afraid of more gun control. Especially if President Obama wins a second term in which he then has nothing to lose anymore and can thus enact unpopular legislation without fear of reprisal for himself at the ballot box. Are they right to be afraid? Well, President Obama does not have a good track record on the second amendment, and he did campaign on re-instating the Assault Weapons Ban. He has been very friendly to second amendment rights so far, but I believe this is because of political expediency not because of a change of heart.

But I don't think fear is really driving sales. I think people just like guns and shooting. I probably own close to 20 firearms. Only one of them did I buy out of fear - fear of civil unrest. All the rest I bought simply because I enjoy hunting and shooting.

In short, nearly all of my firearms were given to me or purchased by me for pleasure. Hunting and shooting is fun!

Do you think everyone should be trained to possess and operate a firearm?

Yes. Kind of like I think everyone ought to know how to drive a stick-shift. You never know when that skill set might come in handy. Personally I think school children should be taught firearm safety in grade school. Even if it does not include any actual safe handling or shooting safety, a program like Eddie Eagle that teaches kids to don't touch, walk away, and tell an adult is crucial in a society where children are likely to come across firearms, either at home or in the home of a friend.

Do you think these due diligence for ensuring that legal firearms purchases are not being diverted for criminal purpose?

I'm not sure what you are asking here. If you are asking do I think these purchases are straw purchases, I'm sure some are. It is trivial to walk into a gun store and lie on the form and simply say you are buying the gun for yourself, and then sell it to someone else privately the next day.

But I don't think straw buying is really that big of an issue. Why? Because if a criminal is willing to pay above retail to buy a firearm (the price of the gun, plus a cut to the straw buyer), and risk breaking the law, why not just open your local Penny Saver or go online to gunbroker.com and find a local private seller of a firearm and buy it legally, cash on the barrel head, no questions asked?

There's really no reason to buy through a straw buyer, unless you just have to have a brand-new firearm. Somehow I doubt this is a big priority for most criminals looking to buy a firearm. Frankly I doubt most criminals are going to buy firearms at market prices anyway. They are going to buy stolen goods on the black market.

[SteveW]

42. The big uptick in Democratic/Democratic-leaning is interesting...

Gallup reports that those who consider themselves Democratic Party members or who are Democratic-leaning have experienced a .33% increase in gun-ownership.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/self-reported-gun-ownership-highest-1993.aspx

Perhaps they have been thoroughly disabused of the notion that gun-control is a "liberal issue," or they appreciate a genuine threat coming from the Far Right (the dominant political force in this country), or they miss-perceive the violent crime rate as being higher than it is. Or perhaps they are just curious, wanting to see what that taboo "thing" is all about (prohibition's universal conceit).

Unsure if the "healthy thing" you reference is "fear" or the increase in gun-ownership. The former: Who knows? The latter: No.

I don't know if they are "right" to be afraid, but if the fear is justified, I'm not concerned over it's rightness. If there is a "panic," I rather suspect it is the result of RW gas-passing about "Second Amendment remedies."

I don't know about "due diligence" at "ensuring that legal firearms purchases are not being diverted for criminal purpose," since our own BATF and State Department have for some reason encouraged just the opposite.

[SteveW]

47. Addition to my last post...

I forgot a question about should everyone be trained to use a gun, or something similar.

All people educated in this society would be wise to get instruction on safe firearms use. I would not require an individual (who's parents objected) to take the course, but it should be one offered. And of course, no one is required to own a gun, though the statutes governing militia do in most cases require that one report for duty, presenting a suitable arm.

"We cannot but pity the boy who has never fired a gun." H. D. Thoreau, Walden

[one-eyed fat man]

81. 28 December 1911

100 years ago, (December 28th) the first 40 Colt M1911's were assembled. These 40 pistols were not shipped until Jan. 4, 1912, in a crate of 50 pistols to the Springfield Armory. To be technically correct, collectors typically use the shipping date as the 'born on date' for the pistol... and that is only a week away. I still think it is interesting and note worthy that 100 years ago, the first 40 pistols existed as assembled M1911 pistols waiting to be shipped. (These 40 pistols were the ONLY M1911 pistols assembled in 1911!)

[Union Scribe]

82. Interesting!

Good tidbit for range conversation, thanks.