Two arrested in brutal hammer beating in Seminole (Sanford, Fl.) (Time to ban guns and hammers)

[shadowrider]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by krispos42 (a host of the Gun Control & RKBA group).

(Note: Victim not expected to live)

--------------------

A tip to Crimeline has led to the arrests of two men in a brutal beating that occurred a week ago in the Midway community east of Sanford.

Julius Ricardo Bender, 18, and Yahaziel Isaac Israel, 19, face charges of attempted first-degree murder, burglary with assault or battery and armed burglary.

(SNIP)

A witness told deputies he heard someone screaming for help and saw two men pull the victim from his vehicle. He said he watched as one man held the victim and the other beat him in the head with a hammer.

After they dragged the victim into the woods, the men drove away in his sport utility vehicle, which was later found abandoned about a half-mile away on Garbo Jack Lane.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-02/news/os-two-arrested-seminole-beating-20120402_1_victim-arrest-affidavits-crimeline

Slightly off topic, but proving the point pro-gun people have been making. Lacking a gun, the bad guys will use anything.

[leveymg]

1. Ask Trayvon whether it made no difference if Zimmerman had a 9mm or a hammer. Ridiculous post.

[shadowrider]

2. Plenty of Trayvon threads. This is unrelated.

[leveymg]

5. Sure it is

[rrneck]

36. At the range Travon was shot

a knife would have worked just as well.

[spotbird]

3. Because hammers are just as lethal as hammers. nt

[petronius]

6. I suppose we could discuss the varying degrees of lethality between different

types of hammers in different situations, but perhaps you meant "firearms" for one of those nouns?

[HockeyMom]

4. Deadly force

Guns, knives,Black Belts, hammers, it really is all the same.

[Webster Green]

7. Comments at the article are blaming Obama.

Hoo-boy!

[Common Sense Party]

8. Is this now the hammergeon?

[baldguy]

9. The difference between hammers and guns, of course

Is that guns are designed for the sole purpose of killing people, while hammers are designed for the purpose of pounding nails.

[Starboard Tack]

10. Exactly. Shadowrider doesn't seem to understand that.

[baldguy]

16. It's a basic tenet of gun nut dogma that guns aren't designed to kill things

And handguns especially aren't designed to kill human beings quickly & easily.

That's like saying people shouldn't worry about the neutron bomb I have sitting on my desk because I use it as a paperweight, not a weapon of mass destruction.

[Starboard Tack]

21. I love the fire extinguisher equation. LOL

Like protecting our borders with nuclear warheads.

[ManiacJoe]

42. You are saying all the correct words, but you don't understand them.

> guns aren't designed to kill things

Correct. Guns are designed to fire bullets with repeatable accuracy. Most things (mechanical or living) do not react well to having holes punched in them. Some bullets cause more damage than others.

> And handguns especially aren't designed to kill human beings quickly & easily.

Also correct. Handguns are notoriously bad man stoppers. However, most folks are willing to trade the stopping ability for ease of carrying since the chances of needing to shoot someone are quite low. If you know you are going to be in a gun fight, and are foolish enough to show up, you are bringing a rifle or shotgun.

[spin]

12. Gee. I must be doing something wrong ...

I own a lot of handguns, a rifle and a shotgun. I have never killed anything with my weapons. I have just punched holes in paper targets, tin cans and plastic milk jugs.

[petronius]

13. And for pulling nails, breaking rock, forging metal, fitting parts,

and even crunching your armored enemies:



In fact, hammers are designed for delivering a blunt impact, which can have many different uses. A firearm is designed to propel a small projectile, which can have many different uses. You are confusing purpose and use, and although I know why you did it, the statement "guns are designed for the sole purpose of killing people" is nonsense...

[PavePusher]

25. Oh... Really... Care to place a small wager on that?

Naw, I don't want to take your money, too easy. "Not very sporting".

https://www.google.com/search?q=war+hammer,+image&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=CZJ7T8W7LOOLsQLYg9ibBw&ved=0CCQQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=869







Short version: Hammers have been instruments of violence for millenia. Vast numbers of them have been designed for nothing as innocuous as striking nails.

[baldguy]

27. The fact that you're posting pics of specialized tools designed to kill sort of proves my point.

Guns are specialized tools designed to kill. A common carpenters hammer is not.

[PavePusher]

28. "...while hammers are designed..."

Move goal-posts, much?

But, if you want to play that game, there are lots of guns not "designed to kill people with". Sure, they can do so, if applied to that purpose.... just like that "common carpenters hammer" can, designed or not.

First Rule of Holes, my friend.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

30. At least you have moderated your silly position somewhat

[friendly_iconoclast]

44. Not unless those killed with guns are deader than those killed with hammers. Dead is dead.

And as those familiar with the demise of Leon Trotsky might point out, hammers will certainly do the job.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

29. Yet another false statement

My guns have not killed anyone...though I dispatched another snake this morning with one. Others hunt, target shoot, etc.

There are also hammers like these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_hammer

[Clames]

37. The real difference...

....is that you and your buddy completely missed the point of this thread. Not even in the same country really. Is that all guns? My guns have only put holes in paper, wood, and fruit. I used an entirely different set of guns to attach door and base trim in a bathroom and yet another gun to attach a wood support to a concrete block today though. Seems you narrow definition has some problems, get to work on that if you please.

[rrneck]

38. Sole purpose of killing who? nt

[Starboard Tack]

11. Why don't you carry a concealed hammer instead of banning them?

[spin]

15. In Florida I can carry a concealed hammer for self defense...

I have a Concealed Weapons Permit which allows me to carry a variety of weapons concealed while I am in Florida unlike the carry permits in many states which only allows a person to carry a firearm.

3)(a) “Concealed weapon” means any dirk, metallic knuckles, slungshot, billie, tear gas gun, chemical weapon or device, or other deadly weapon carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the weapon from the ordinary sight of another person.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.001.html

[Hoyt]

14. Still trying to deflect attention from Zimmerman murdering Martin with a gun and SYG law.

Just because you believe in carrying guns in public, the rest of us might feel differently about it.

[spin]

17. In this case, I feel the victim could have used a legally concealed firearm ...

for legitimate self defense under the "Stand Your Ground" law.

If he had merely showed the thugs that he was armed, the thugs might have decided to run. However if the thugs called the police before he did, he might have been charged with brandishing a weapon.

Florida's Stand Your Ground Law Explained

As you have undoubtedly heard in the news, 17 year old Trayvon Martin was shot and killed by George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch crime captain in Sanford, Florida. Zimmerman claims that Trayvon Martin attacked him, forcing him to protect himself by shooting the teenager. If he is eventually charged, and we at the South Florida Criminal Defense Firm of Berman & Tsombanakis LLC believe he eventually will be, Zimmerman may try to use Florida's Stand Your Ground Law as his defense. As more information comes to light though, Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law may not even apply given the facts of this case. This controversial law has drawn a great deal of criticism throughout the nation though it is somewhat misunderstood by the public. A full reading and review of the actual text of the law and the other laws it cites to (Florida Statutes 776.012, 776.013, 776.031) is needed to fully understand it.

Essentially, the law is designed to protect those from criminal prosecution when they are acting in self-defense. It further expands on the self-defense laws by eliminating the duty to retreat in some situations. Under Florida's stand your ground law, a person is immune from criminal prosecution when using justifiable force to protect oneself from another persons use of imminent unlawful force against them. The key here is that the force used to defend yourself must be "justifiable". This means that the force must be reasonable in relation to the threatened force. For instance, if someone attacks you with non-deadly force, such as their fists, you may not defend yourself with deadly force. On the other hand, if someone threatens you with deadly force or great bodily harm, such as a gun or a knife, you can use deadly force in response if you believe it is "reasonably" necessary. However, this law does not allow someone to act in self-defense to a law enforcement officer.

Another situation in which "stand your ground" is applied is in someone's home or car. A person is presumed to have a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm if there is an unlawful and forceful entering of a home or occupied vehicle. In this situation a person may use defensive force to protect themselves from the unlawful and forceful entry. emphasis added
http://www.southfloridacriminallawyer-blog.com/2012/03/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-explained.html

[ProgressiveProfessor]

31. The good news is that you are in a shrinking minority

[Hoyt]

34. Gun wielders have long tried to trample the unarmed.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

35. Legal gun owners or thugs?

I know you can parse the difference if you really try

[Hoyt]

40. People who use guns to intimidate.

That includes illegal and legal gun wielders. I actually think latter is a bigger threat. The Zimmerman's are the biggest threat for most -- yet, some want us to coddle them..

[ProgressiveProfessor]

41. Really? Any stats to bear that out?

Legal CCW holders are more of a threat than armed street thugs...classic Hoyt. I will add it to my class slides.

No one I know is coddling Zimmerman...but many are smart enough to put the blame were it belongs, on Zimmerman, vice inanimate objects or anything else.

[friendly_iconoclast]

43. You *do* realize you're asking a True Believer for statistics?

You can expect about the same result you'd get asking a Regent University professor how many peer-reviewed papers on paleontology
they've published...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

45. Indeed I do

but he continues to be so willing to embarrass himself, who am I to deny him an audience?

[ileus]

18. It's more honorable to die than use a firearm to defend yourself.

besides you're 300^76 more likely to kill yourself and eat your children if you're a rude baser toter using Advil.

[petronius]

19. ...but not necessarily in that order. (Although I guess "kill yourself" could

be followed by zombiefication, which would allow children-eating to come later...)

[pneutin]

20. If you yell for help, no one will help you

That is for damn sure and the only hard and fast conclusion I have come to lately.

[TheCowsCameHome]

22. Go build something useful with a gun.

Show us how that works.

[PavePusher]

26. Steaks are useful.

YMMV

[ProgressiveProfessor]

32. Fill your larder with food for the winter with a hammer

[ileus]

39. I've built a lot of great friendships around the firearm.

I have dozens of hunting friends.

I have several friends that love shooting matches.

My wife and I have a two of couples we shoot skeet with.

Of course there's my friends at work that all have a general interest in all things firearms.

And last but not least there's dozens of people scattered across 5 or 6 firearm forums (including this one) I like to call friends.

[niyad]

23. the rest of you can talk about hammers vs guns. there is a point in the article that nobody

else is mentioning:



A tip to Crimeline has led to the arrests of two men in a brutal beating that occurred a week ago in the Midway community east of Sanford.

Julius Ricardo Bender, 18, and Yahaziel Isaac Israel, 19, face charges of attempted first-degree murder, burglary with assault or battery and armed burglary.

(SNIP)

A witness told deputies he heard someone screaming for help and saw two men pull the victim from his vehicle. He said he watched as one man held the victim and the other beat him in the head with a hammer.

After they dragged the victim into the woods, the men drove away in his sport utility vehicle, which was later found abandoned about a half-mile away on Garbo Jack Lane.



there was an eye-witness to this horrendous event and that person did not call the police immediately. (no, I would not expect that person to try to intervene, but why in the HELL were the police not called immediately? a week later an anonymous tip is called in. A WEEK LATER????? what the HELL is the matter with people?

[petronius]

24. I don't think that's referring to just one person - it sounds like the witness called

immediately and police found the victim. The Crimeline tip giving the name came from someone else - perhaps who heard them boasting or otherwise learned of the event - and then the name allowed police to go back to the first witness with photos...

[niyad]

33. yes, you are correct. I should have read the whole article.

[krispos42]

46. Locking.

A bit too slightly off topic.

Regards,
Krispos42, Gungeon Host

[petronius]

47. Wrong locking message. It's "Stop!!

"Hammer time!"

[krispos42]

48. Shit. I probably should press the lock button, shouldn't I?