Three U.S. citizens killed in Mexico attacks

[burf]

MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - Three U.S. citizens were among those killed when gunmen attacked buses in the eastern Mexican state of Veracruz, said a U.S. State Department official said on Saturday.

http://news.yahoo.com/three-u-citizens-killed-mexico-attacks-084334837.html

In related news:

16 killed in violence in Mexican state

l laVERACRUZ, Mexico (AP) — A group of gunmen attacked three passenger buses in Mexico's Gulf coast state of Veracruz on Thursday, killing seven passengers in what authorities said appeared to be a violent robbery spree.

The Defense Department said in a statement that soldiers chased the five assailants and returned fire whey they were "attacked," killing all of the gunmen.

The army said the gunmen, who were carrying rifles, started the attacks in the pre-dawn hours of Thursday, killing three people who were loading vegetables into a truck in the town of El Higo, in northern Veracruz. In the same town, they tossed a grenade that killed another person.



There is also information reported the entire municipal police force of Veracruz was fired because of corruption.

I wonder how many of the bad guys guns are associated with with Fast and Furious or the State Department weapons sales programs. Either that or the grenade show loophole is wide open again.

[ileus]

1. Time to renew the AWB in America.

[Dr_Scholl]

2. No.

I'd rather not cater my laws around another country, thank you very much.

[BiggJawn]

3. And American gun owners are responsible for this *HOW*???

Oh, my yes, it's those straw purchases of crates of grenades at the local gun show over at the armoury last Saturday, that must be it.

And the gunmen were "carrying rifles"... Let me guess, some $79 Mosin-Nagants or $299 Yugoslavian Mausers? The "Assault Rifles" of the 19th Century?

[burf]

4. Where have I accused any American gun owner

of being responsible for these attacks? I guess I gotta start using the sarcasm tag for the "grenade show loophole" again.

The question I would like an answer to is: Did any of the guns recovered come from Holder's Fast and Furious Gun and Pawn or the United States State Department Military Surplus Enporium?

Banning chocolate ice cream would be as effective as banning guns here in stopping drug cartel violence in Mexico and the US.

[spin]

5. The legalization of some drugs would do far more good than another AWB...

The War on Drugs was lost years ago. If we don't wise up soon, the violence in Mexico will spread to the U.S.

[ellisonz]

9. You mean...

...you're not for the legalization of *all* drugs!

But making me go to the pharmacist or doctor for pseudoephedrine is a restriction of my rights that I cannot abide!

"the violence in Mexico will spread to the U.S."

The violence already has spread to the U.S. - you just don't read about it in the papers so much...

[spin]

10. The restictions on pseudoephedrine have caused an increase in smuggling of...

meth from Mexico.

Mexican drug gangs boost meth sales with new methods
By Mica Rosenberg


MEXICO CITY | Fri Nov 5, 2010 11:13pm IST

(Reuters) - Mexican drug cartels are sidestepping laws that target the production of methamphetamines by importing new kinds of input chemicals, a blow to U.S. and Mexican efforts to halt the thriving trade.

***snip***

It is also bad news for anti-drug efforts in the United States, where officials hailed a temporary decline in meth availability after Mexico outlawed pseudoephedrine, a chief input chemical used to make the drug, in 2007.

Meth flooded back onto U.S. streets in 2009, at even lower prices, U.S. officials say, as innovating Mexican cartels made their meth with harder-to-detect common chemicals like phenylacetic acid, used in food flavorings and perfumes.

Meth flooded back onto U.S. streets in 2009, at even lower prices, U.S. officials say, as innovating Mexican cartels made their meth with harder-to-detect common chemicals like phenylacetic acid, used in food flavorings and perfumes.
http://in.reuters.com/article/2010/11/05/idINIndia-52704920101105

And Mexican meth is stronger and more addictive than that made in mom and pop labs in the United States.

Meth purity, potency up
Written by Clayton R. Norman
Sunday, 17 April 2011 17:38

Methamphetamine produced in Mexico is now more pure and more potent than it has been in a decade, the DEA reported last week.

Meth-producing drug cartels in Mexico have refined techniques for producing the drug, said Angela Walker, Senior Forensic Chemist at the DEA's South Central Laboratory, resulting in meth that may be almost 96 percent pure. And not only is the meth coming out of Mexico more pure, Walker told a group of drug and epidemiology researchers gathered in Scottsdale last week, the product is also stronger than it has been in ten years.

***snip***

Tombstone Marshal Billy Cloud, who has worked as an undercover narcotics detective, said the rising purity and strength of meth is a concern because of the drug's highly addictive qualities.

Besides the drug's long-term physical effects on users, which can include psychosis, heart problems and rotting teeth, Cloud said, it is also associated with burglaries, thefts and assaults.
http://www.theepitaph.com/news/9-crime/558-meth-purity-potency-up

Consequently making you go to a doctor or pharmacist to get cold medicine that actually works did little to stop the meth problem.

I agree that the violence in Mexico has spread into the U.S. I predict it will increase dramatically in the near future.

[ellisonz]

11. So what drugs should...

...remain illegal? What restrictions should we have?

This is my problem with the libertarian dream, it results in anarchy. Legalizing wouldn't mean the cartels would necessarily stop, in fact, they could just become more violent.

I think start with pot and that's it.

[spin]

13. Marijuana would definitely be my first choice for legalization...

It's everywhere and easy to obtain. In my opinion it should be been legalized years ago.

I don't claim to be an expert on drugs since I have avoided them throughout my life. I even dislike taking pain killers and even with a bad back and hip I have to be in some real pain before I break down and take some. (Yes, I did some experimentation with marijuana but that was 40 years ago. I wasn't all that impressed with the results.)

I remember my grandmother used a drug called Paregoric (camphorated tincture of opium) which my father felt she was addicted to. She said it calmed her nerves and her stomach and at her age of 90+, the drug may have helped her far more than it harmed her. She died in the late 50s and nobody was sure just how old she was. Since she was born somewhere around 1860, I would imagine that in her lifetime she had used many drugs that are currently illegal. If so, they had little effect on her as she was very spry and mentally was as sharp as a tack. She fell and broke her hip and never was able to recover. A broken hip was a death sentence back in those days as hip replacement surgery was just in its infancy.

I suspect the legal drugs we get from doctors today cause as much or more problems than the illegal drugs. I've seen numerous people who are addicted to prescription pain killers which is why I avoid taking them. I suspect these pain drugs are legal because they make bundles of money for the drug industry whereas the illegal drugs would not be as profitable. However, the currently illegal drugs might be as good as or better than the legal ones at reducing pain or emotional distress if used properly.

So since I have little knowledge of the drawbacks of some illegal drugs, I am hesitant to say which ones should be legalized. I'm not all that interested in the subject to bone up on it.

You may be right. Perhaps we should just legalize pot and stop at that point. It would take a lot of profit away from the drug smugglers and the money we waste attempting to stop the flow of this drug could be better used to combat the more dangerous drugs.

[ellisonz]

15. I can tell you plain as day...

...Meth, heroin, cocaine, PCP, and ecstasy ruin lives and kill with ease. I have no desire to see them legalized. Meth in particular has done great damage to my extended family. I have a friend who died from a heroin overdose, who I never pegged as a user. I have had a friend overdose from prescription sleep medications. I think as a country we are generally over-medicated and believe marijuana can be a healthy alternative. I think the medical community should have a large say in drug policy, after all when we say legalize and promote rehabilitation, they are the community we expect to bear this burden of "treatment." I don't think the doctors are going to suggest any of those be legalized.

The libertarian dream of total drug legalization is nonsense: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_medicine

I would love to see marijuana replace narcotic painkillers when possible as a prescribed treatment. I've read reliable reports from patients and people with various disorders that suggest it is an exceedingly safe medication when compared to many narcotics and anti-depressants.

[burf]

12. Violence and property crimes are going to increase no

matter if drugs are legalized or not. How is Joey the addict going to afford his fix no matter who the dealer is? He is so strung out he can't hold down a job. I live in the boondocks. There have been 3 meth labs busted within 5 miles of my house. On more than one occassion, there have been vehicles come up my driveway, almost a quarter mile off a dirt township road, at a slow rate of speed. The "puppy" barked to warn us. When the 3 million candlepower light comes on, they haul ass. If they don't the next light they see is gonna be either red or green, depending on which pistol I grab. I suspiciously had one of the dogs poisoned just over a year ago. Coincidence? maybe. You be the judge.

What they are looking for is an easy mark. Theft is a big problem around here. They take whatever ain't bolted down. Everything from chain saws to hand tools. to calves. Some around here say "just give 'em what they want". What happens when there's nothing left, or what I got ain't enough? Not to mention, I have worked hard for what we've got.


I have heard that we will legalize drugs, tax the hell out of them and the proceeds will be used to rehab addicts and ensure there is a clean supply for those who choose to use. What is the difference paying Uncle Sam the dealer or the Sinola cartel? You think the Mexican cartels are gonna take this laying down and just go away? They will just go into different lines of work, like the gangs did after prohibition. How about the prolieferation of the bath salts? There was a place downstate that got bipped the other day and they had over $200k worth the stuff. If the outlaws can make the stuff cheap enough, it makes no difference to the average user. They will buy the illegal, cause that's what they can afford and they get high off it.

ellisonz. you mentioned on a post a while back why would someone in a rural area need an assault rifle or the like. I hope this answers your question.

[spin]

14. Sorry to hear about your dog...

I would suspect it was no coincidence.

If I move into a more rural area, I will also buy an assault rifle for home defense.

[burf]

17. I neglected to mention that

shortly after he died, I just happened to find some meat wrappers in the front field.

RIP Luke-a-pup.

[ellisonz]

16. "you mentioned on a post a while back why would someone in a rural area need an assault rifle"

I never said exactly that at all. I've said I don't know why you need half-a-dozen of them, or why everybody needs one. I also don't think you couldn't mount the same sort of defense with other weapons. You need to understand where we in the city are coming from with our objections to the current system...

The drug cartels are not going to stop. All we can do is hope to inhibit their growth at this point, legalizing all drugs won't stop the flow. Legalizing just marijuana will make it more expensive for them to conduct the rest of their business and allow our enforcement to be more effective. Marijuana is a complete different category of substance from most of the others - no one has ever died from marijuana, most people don't steal to support their marijuana habit.

You also need to realize that our weapons are going South into illegal hands, that's what Fast and Furious was trying to stop. There's a difference between our current system of gun control and a more restrictive and flexible system like most other Westernized states have that allow for exceptions to the rule.

[beevul]

19. "that's what Fast and Furious was trying to stop."

You also need to realize that our weapons are going South into illegal hands, that's what Fast and Furious was trying to stop."

Fast and furious was trying to stop weapons going out of American jurisdiction, by letting weapons go out of American jurisdiction?

Without the knowledge or permission or assistance of the authorities in Mexico?

Without a means or mechanism to track them?

M'kay.

Has anyone mentioned to you, that the inspector generals investigation of fast and furious isn't finished and and already exceeds the investigation into the assassination of President Kennedy, in terms of how long its taking?

I have yet to see one explanation for F&F by any one on the pro control side that wasn't hokey and full of holes.

Maybe you'll be the first to provide one.

I have also yet to see anyone on the pro-control side even touch on the DCS (direct Commecrial Sales) angle, which is very definitely connected to guns being used for violence in Mexico.

Maybe you'll be the first, on the pro-control side, to examine that as well.

I HAVE seen lots of calls for laws aimed at civilian firearms in America, and the American people those laws would certainly effect.


Predictably.

[burf]

22. Good post!

You type alot faster than this old person does!

[ellisonz]

23. I'm not defending it...

I'm just stating what they've said they thought they were doing.

You may kindly calm the heck down.

[burf]

20. As you said, MJ isn't the big problem.

But legalizing it is not going to stop the use of meth, cocaine, bath salts, heroin, or anything else. There was a program a while back on Current TV about the use of oxycontin. The addicts to oxy were going to heroin cause it was a better high and cheaper. How did they pay for their habits? Most of them stole from family. What happens when the family throws you out? You gotta steal from someone else.

So, what do you do then? We are back to square one, with the exception we don't treat MJ users like criminals.

As far as Fast and Furious, I have to disagree with your analysis. Where was the tracking mechanism for the guns that went to the cartels? Why weren't the Mexican Authorities notified of the program? ATF supervisors watched on CCTV guns being sold to suspicious individuals and let the weapons walk? The whole deal does not pass the smell test. A simple question: What did the President and the AG know and when did they know it. The Presidents national security advisor was recieving information on the program and he didn't brief the boss? Really?

How about the story of the State Department ok'ing the sale of millions of dollars in military weapons to the Mexican government, of which how many of the weapons wound up in the hands of the cartels due to corruption in the system?

I remember when the news on F&F broke the story line said it was all the fault of the US firearms dealers and that our gun laws needed to be tightened. The when the particulars came out, the reporting all but dried up except for Sheryl Attkinson of CBS and FOX News. There's that damned coincidence thing again!

[ellisonz]

24. I didn't say it would...

"The drug cartels are not going to stop. All we can do is hope to inhibit their growth at this point, legalizing all drugs won't stop the flow. Legalizing just marijuana will make it more expensive for them to conduct the rest of their business and allow our enforcement to be more effective."

I would add that taxing MJ can pay for treatment and interdiction.

I'm not the total answers man, I take a progressive approach - stand for some basic principles, see what works.

I'm not going to even get into our flawed approach to Mexico. I just stated what they thought they were doing. You both see red when there is none in my statement other than known fact.

The President is a very busy man, until you can prove he was briefed about it you're just blowing hot air. Asking for Holder to resign just gives ammo to the Republicans, do you want the GOP to win in November?

[oneshooter]

18. Last year we found 3 cooking meth labs on the deer lease

inside some box stands. Called DPS and Fish&Game to get them out. They watched untill the "cooks" came back, busted two and followed one. Had to burn all three stands.

Oneshooter

[burf]

21. They use some pretty nasty stuff making that crap.

A person has to be pretty screwed up to put that stuff in their body.

[BiggJawn]

6. I forgot to use the sarcasm tag, too.

I caught the grenade show loophole part.

[thumpandclunk]

7. Completely impossible!

Mexico is a gun control paradise-firearms are strictly controlled and civilians aren't even allowed to own military caliber weapons. Those must have been 50 BMG rounds returning from low earth orbit after being fired at a range 800 miles away! Ban sub-orbital kinetic kill weapons for the children and tourists!

[burf]

8. Or maybe.........

Zombies! I was wondering why all of a sudden a post comes up, seemingly out of nowhere, about ammo to dispatch Zombies. There is no way you can convince me this is a mere coincidence (cause I don't believe in them any way!).

Bartender, another root beer!!!!!!

//end of sarcasm// for those who need it.