"Judge, Jury and Executioner"

[TPaine7]

Put yourself in the position of a wheelchair-bound young man who lives with his mother. You work online and you make a pretty good living as a programmer. You live in a remote area, and you love the natural beauty, but police response times can be very long under the best of circumstances.

Dad is dead, and your siblings have moved away. But before dad died, he insisted that you learn to use a gun. He was adamant that you be very proficient, in spite of your hatred for guns, and eventually you became a crack shot.

Dad believed that you might need skill with a weapon someday, and while on his deathbed he made you swear to keep up your skills, keep a gun accessible whenever legal and keep a CCW permit if at all possible.

So when the local serial rapist, torturer and killer of women breaks in, you have a hidden gun nearby.

Thinking you are helpless, he calmly stands over your trembling mother, detailing his exploits with the poor women you have heard about on the news. He says your mom, while older than most of his conquests, is still pretty good looking, and he praises her physical assets. He says this will be the first time he's had an audience, and that that will make it especially fun. And after the show, you'll get to be the first man he's killed. He says you should be honored.

At this, you pull out your gun, prepared to use it just like dad taught you. He's momentarily shocked, but then recovers. "I don't think you have it in you," he sneers as he reaches down for Mom.

So what do you do? Do you reach for the phone and hope mom survives the next 30 - 45 minutes until the cops arrive or do you act as "judge, jury and executioner"?

[jpak]

1. Nice Fairy Tale

[TPaine7]

2. Denying realities that you don't like doesn't make them less real.

This scenario is no less possible than "imagine a man with a mohawk waves at you next Tuesday."

The fact that you deny it is irrelevant. You can't pretend the world into a safe place.

[orpupilofnature57]

4. Or shooting it into safer one either.

[TPaine7]

7. So shooting the man in my scenario WOULD NOT make the world—and especially your corner of it—safer?!

Really?

[orpupilofnature57]

26. Sure it would ,how often is your scenario

a Reality?

[TPaine7]

32. Probably once or never in the history of the world.

Unfortunately, the frequency of people being forced to watch their families tortured and raped is much higher and the frequency of defensive gun use in milder circumstances is higher still.

My exact scenario is irrelevant.

[jpak]

6. You made up your fantasy - it is not "real"

It is fantasy

De {Plane!

De Plane

[TPaine7]

10. The capacity for abstract thought is vital. Yes I made this exact scenario up.

But people have been compelled to watch their loved ones tortured, raped and killed.

I won't bother proving it to you, because it would still be "fantasy" to you—it's inconvenient to your worldview.

[jpak]

17. Thank you for sharing your Mommy Rape Big Gun Hero Fantasy

It shed much needed light on inner psyche of the Gun Culture crowd.

[TPaine7]

19. Why don't you shed a little light on the anti gun culture crowd. WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

Or is it against your anti-gun convictions to answer that simple question?

[jpak]

20. I would shut off that stupid TV movie - and have a sandwich.

[TPaine7]

27. Evasion is all you have when your position is untenable. I understand why you can't answer, jpak. nt

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

36. Denying realities...

...just makes you pro-control.

[Clames]

16. Much better tale...

...than the yarns you spin around here.






Yup.

[COLGATE4]

41. And not even a very good one

[GreenStormCloud]

57. Something similar actually happened to a DUer.

It has been a few years since the post, back on DU2. He wasn't a regular on the Guns forum and I don't remember his username. His wife was actually about to be raped in his own home until he was able to get a gun. He shot the rapist.

There was a self-defense shooting thread that I started a few months ago and I gave the newspaper link. A woman was about to be raped when she was able to get to her pistol and emptied it into the guy. He ran outside, collapsed, and died in her backyard. The link included the 911 tape.

There was another incident in which a wheelchair bound man was knocked over by home invaders as they kicked in the door. He had a .45 with him and killed on of the invaders.

People really do use guns for self-defense and defense of others, no matter how much you try to deny it.

[orpupilofnature57]

3. Like a son with a gun on a creep ,that

just told me he means to harm my mom and me , I become a minuscule percentage of the people that actually have to use a gun to Protect myself ,and worry about court Later. I don't own a gun, so your scenario is mute.

[TPaine7]

9. So low probability events are MOOT? (Not mute.)

Everyone already understands that shooting defensively in the home is a low probability event; I don't know anyone who has shot someone in their home. Yet these are some of the very scenarios where the "judge jury and executioner" language is used.

So the fact that events like the one I described are low probability are rare is neither here nor there. Of course they're low probability. But would you play judge jury and executioner or wait for the cops? Why dodge the question?

[orpupilofnature57]

29. Thanks for spelling Moot , but

I believe I did answer , he would be shot ,He was the jury when he told me of his intentions and in this cartoon judge and executioner are the same.

[TPaine7]

31. Low probability =| cartoon as I am sure people who have

been involved in "cartoons" would tell you.

[orpupilofnature57]

30. Because it's fun to shit on guns ,and

nobody can die ,for the sake of a lethal ( in most cases ) toy

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

38. re: "...shooting defensively in the home is a low probability event..."

Shooting defensively in the home is a NO probability event without a gun.

[WingDinger]

5. You carry a panic button, and a loud siren blares. depending on whether the freak has a weapon,

you tell him FREEZE mFer, or I will blow your fool head off. He runs like hell. I have done just that when I didnt have a gun. Unfortunately, they were stealing my roomates car and I ran outside nude. So, I hid. Peeked out just enough to identify them, and called police. They broke in, told me they had two in custody, and could I identify them. The cop drove like a madman, but kinda fun. This all occured in about two, maybe three minutes.

[TPaine7]

14. He's already called your "bluff" so telling him to FREEZE is pointless. n/t

[WingDinger]

21. OK, you have a dog, a tazer, a pepper spray canister. ? When you are home invaded, only a dog will

warn you in time, or stop it. Unless you sleep with your gun at hand, you WILL be surprised by home invasion. There is much more likelihood that you will be killed, if you try dealing with home invasion with a gun. Gun at hand, is why you even have concealed permit.

[TPaine7]

22. ????

Dealing with a home invasion with a gun makes you more likely to be killed? Cite one source, just one, that isn't an advocacy group or wasn't hired by one.

And CCW has nothing to do with home invasions or a gun in your home.

[WingDinger]

23. Home invasions are rarely one person. They stake out the property, then insure the element of surpri

surprise. They intend to surprise you, and so likely they will. UNLESS you have a dog.

[TPaine7]

24. I think you're misinformed, and you cite only your imagination.

I guess you think most folks won't hear a door being kicked in or glass breaking, and the invaders will be able to zero in on the bedroom before they can access a gun?

I also guess you think in this scenario, it is best to be unarmed?

You are entitled to your opinion; you are entitled to act accordingly.

[TPaine7]

25. Don't think I missed your evasion of my earlier point.

In the OP's scenario, yelling "FREEZE mFer" would be useless. To put it nicely.

[shadowrider]

42. Yelling "Freeze Mf'er" would be useless unless you escalate

and yell "Freeze Mf'er or I shall say Freeze Mf'er again in a sterner voice".

[Simo 1939_1940]

28. "Unless you sleep with your gun at hand, you WILL..........

.........be surprised by a home invasion."

Not if you've made your home a hard target - in which case you'll be alerted by noise.....most likely loud noise. Are you aware that there is synthetic film that can be applied to glass which makes it extremely difficult to punch through?

There is much more likelihood that you will be killed, if you try dealing with home invasion with a gun.

And your evidence for this is tucked away where? Data from the National Crime Victims Survey says the direct opposite. Of course, since Dr. Gary Kleck sifted through the data to prepare the following charts, they can be dismissed.....right?

http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/kleck.study.html

[Logical]

8. Easy answer, You kill him to stop him from raping your mother. Any sane person would. n-t

[TPaine7]

11. Then there are a lot of insane (or dishonest) antis,

who say inane things like "violence never solves anything."

[Logical]

18. I agree. These people obviously never have spent 5 minutes thinking of how bad....

things really happen in life.

Killing someone to prevent a rape is 100% a justifiable act. I have no respect for anyone who would let another person get raped because they didn't want to kill someone.

[doc03]

12. Myself he would have been dead the moment he entered my home and wouldn't

had time to make his little speech. n/t

[atreides1]

13. Simple

I would kill the fucker...and make sure that the only way to identify him is by his fingerprints!

Nice story by the way...

[Simo 1939_1940]

15. I act as J, J & E. NT

[ileus]

33. Never be rude to society...better to see your mom raped, tortured and murdered.

[orpupilofnature57]

34. No , appoint yourself God

[TPaine7]

35. So you would appoint yourself God?!!!

You said (post 29):

I believe I did answer , he would be shot

Now you imply that having the temerity to prevent your mother being tortured raped and killed is to "appoint yourself God."

So which is it? Are you saying that you would shoot even though it would be wrong?

[orpupilofnature57]

39. Yes , I've always have loved mom , and would

unload .Knowing people are anti-guns and constantly posing situations , that put them in a situation where they are diametrically opposed to themselves ,is getting a little childish though. Thanks again for the help with spelling.

[TPaine7]

43. "Knowing people are silly and constantly posing situations , that put them in a situation where

that silliness is apparent, even to the most rabid of them is designed to help them think more clearly about silly memes like 'judge, jury and executer.'"

(There, I fixed it for you.)

Naturally, many readers resent the question and attack it, as if that will repair the holes in their logic.

Others simply avoid the point, like toddlers hiding their eyes so that you can't see them.

The rare, intellectually honest and intelligent ones actually grapple with the inconvenient point and adjust their thinking accordingly.

But scold on; of course the scenario is childish. Your worldview is fine and needs no adjustment.

[orpupilofnature57]

44. Gotta say , Valid points

I get stupid around gun forums , my bigotry , your right to question.

[TPaine7]

45. I am in awe of your honesty. Kudos. n/t

[ileus]

37. My Jeep is god...I could never take it's place.

[orpupilofnature57]

40. Now some meme will tell

you , how your jeep is more dangerous that their ak47 .

[Hoyt]

46. How often - per day, week, or month - do you imagine yourself in that position?

[TPaine7]

47. The OP was the first and only time. I made it up to see how completely people like you believe in

the "judge, jury and executioner" meme.

Now that I've answered your question--with no ducking, dodging, or sidestepping--won't you answer mine?

What would you do?

[Hoyt]

48. I'd get some big friggin dogs, and quit living in fear of something rare.

[TPaine7]

49. Yeah, about what I expected. I understand, Hoyt. Really, I do. n/t

[Hoyt]

50. Just because guns are always the easy solution for you, hardly makes it good for society.

[TPaine7]

51. Guns are rarely the solution. Very rarely.

And while I readily admit that guns are rarely a solution for most people, I do not therefore deny that guns are sometimes the solution. And when guns are the solution, most--if not all--substitutes are useless.

Why is it that I can admit that guns are rarely the solution but you can't tell me whether you would be "judge, jury and executioner" in the OP's scenario?

[Hoyt]

52. I will never be in that situation. And the one guy who might in the next

20 years, ain't worth the problems guns cause. Besides, I'm not that against a few guns in home. I oppose packing in public, and am for restrictions on numbers and types of guns the obsessed buy.

[TPaine7]

53. There might only be one guy who hates guns, makes his living as a programmer and who is threatened

with having his mother raped and then the two of them killed while living in a remote beautiful area where police response times are typically over 30 minutes. And whose father pressured him to become proficient against his will. I'll give you that.

But surely even you don't believe that only one person has been forced to watch their loved ones abused and/or killed in the last 20 years, as convenient as that belief might be. Do you?!

Also, the guy in the OP is hardly obsessed with guns. He hates them.

Your attempted avoidance of the fact that being "judge jury and executioner" is sometimes the proper course of action is noted. I guess I should take comfort in the fact that even you can't admit that you would rather watch a loved one tortured raped and killed rather than be "judge, jury and executioner"--as the silly meme goes.

Oh well, I was pretty sure you would never give a straightforward answer, so I guess a partial dodge is the best possible outcome.

[Hoyt]

54. Why don't you try a rational, intelligent question?

[TPaine7]

55. LOL! That's right Hoyt; if you cover your eyes, we can't see you...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=34010

[AH1Apache]

56. Why don't you try a rational, intelligent question?

Coming from you Hoyt?
That's a hoot.
BTW, got those links yet?