Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumGiving Gun Reform a Shot
Trayvon Martins killing and the subsequent arrest of George Zimmerman clearly reveal the stereotyping issues that still pervade modern society. Yet while much of the press has been covering the galvanizing story of this young boy, the larger issue of gun rights has seldom been mentioned. Indeed, the shooting of Trayvon Martin proves that legislation surrounding gun rights is outdated and must be seriously reconsidered.
The issue with gun legislation begins with the very process required to obtain a gun. In almost every state, according to an article in the The New Yorker by Jill Lepore, one must simply take a one-day, ninety-nine-dollar safety seminar to purchase a firearm. This alone does not seem like enough training to be able to manage a gun, but gun laws moreover have numerous loopholes. According to Arizona Republic reporter Max Jarman, over forty percent of all guns purchased can be bought without any requirements from private sellers at gun shows or through classified ads.
Moreover, 49 states have laws allowing concealed-carry firearms in the United States. The main problem with this fact is that a majority of states only require a single test to demonstrate proficiency with a gun before giving a concealed-carry permit. George Zimmerman, the man accused of murdering Trayvon Martin, had in fact taken such a class on how to conceal firearms in order to better equip himself as a community volunteer. Yet even as a watchman, what business did Zimmerman have with a concealed firearm? His job was, by explicit definition, to simply be aware of any potential threats and report them to police. But by Florida legislation, he was able to get both a gun and a concealed weapons permit.
So who is to blame for these laws? While the state of Florida has come under attack, the National Rifle Association is also an object of criticism. At some point, people have got to stand their ground against the NRA, says Philip Cook, a sociologist who studies gun policy and crime at Duke University, in Durham, N.C. I think otherwise the NRA will continue to push for a broader interpretation of their understanding of what the Second Amendment right is to the point where everybody pretty much can carry a gun-- concealed or openly-- all the time in any circumstance, and do with it what they want. Indeed, we should allow this to happen.
http://thenews.choate.edu/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1353:giving-gun-reform-a-shot&catid=4:nationworld&Itemid=3
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)Last edited Tue May 1, 2012, 02:05 PM - Edit history (1)
Are you joking? One from a New England prep school at that.
That said, now that I read the article and looked up the school, young Master Minor did an OK job for a high school Junior. I have seen as good or better from public schools. Private schools are over rated.
DonP
(6,185 posts)All the feel good laws don't seem to have any measurable impact on crime, the mentally challenged or criminals using them.
Somehow the idea that you can control crime and violence by disarming the law abiding doesn't seem to work very well in the real world.
This latest typical over reach by gun control fanatics will peter out like all the rest have in a few weeks.
safeinOhio
(32,522 posts)Registration of all handguns would make it more difficult for law breakers to purchase and carry handguns. On the other hand, all law abiding citizens would retain the right to purchase and carry handguns.
A great example of how well this works is the registration and licensing of all full automatic guns we now have. It is rare for crimes committed with full autos. It is very hard for criminals to obtain them. It is working.
DonP
(6,185 posts)It's never had enough votes to even get out of committee let along win a floor vote in both houses.
And with CCW in every state but one (so far) good luck going that route state by state.
hack89
(39,171 posts)even if your scheme was put into effect, there would be tens of millions of unregistered guns in circulation.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)gejohnston
(17,502 posts)machine gun crimes were very rare then as well. Most of them were committed by the mob if not only the mob. You really can't compare machine guns then to pistols today because:
Thompson's and BARs were very expensive. A Thompson was half the price of a new car. A BAR was the price of a new car. That is a lot of money for a toy in pre minimum wage America. The mob and some security companies had a few. The two used in the St. Valentines Day Massacre were used in other mob hits in Detroit and NYC.
The high profile robbers in the 1930s like Dillinger was more of a case of lax security at police and National Guard armories. Dillinger's were stolen from police stations.
There is a greater penalty in US for using a machine gun than a pistol. In the UK, both are banned. Both bring the same price on the black market. Full autos are used more there than here.
http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13664
http://www.journaltimes.com/news/local/article_d95027e5-8576-5f82-92a8-a7d25393dd70.html
The outrage over the St. Valentines Day Massacre resulted in three things:
A greater push to repeal Prohibition
Push NFA passage
and pushed the mob to create the "commission" and be more low key about dealing with their "business disputes". Since full autos are more accessible on the black market today (wider selection) this is probably the major reason why machine gun crimes were rare.
safeinOhio
(32,522 posts)people will smuggle cheap ones into the country, people will just make them in the garage and they will just steal them. Full auto AKs are pretty cheap overseas.
Like I said, it is working with autos.
As for the other question about all of those millions of handguns that won't get registered. Well, I'd guess most would get registered. You can't legally use it for self defense, you can't sell them and you would be at great risk just taking it to the range. Over time, an unregistered handgun would become almost be useless.
On the plus side, if someone commits a felony, they'd know if they owned any handguns, Straw purchases would become to dangerous for family and girlfriends to do. It would be very easy to trace and return stolen handguns because crooks couldn't just take them to an out of state gun show and sell them.
I know most here hate the idea, however it would make it more difficult for criminals get them, either on the street or from a straw purchase. Everyone agrees here that law abiding citizen should be able to purchase a handgun for sport, hunting and self defense. Law abiding citizen are not the problem.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)Like I said, it is working with autos.
safeinOhio
(32,522 posts)in Switzerland.
You don't address how it might effect straw sales.
Pointless theater? It would reduce the availability of handguns to criminals, how much, it would remain to be seen. If a handgun that I own is ever stolen, I'd like to get it back if recovered by the police. Registration would do nothing to restrict law abiding citizens from buying and possessing a handgun. It would only effect criminals. I'm all for getting illegal handguns off the street and out of the hands of criminals. Anything that reduces the need to be armed on the street is a good idea.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)and there are police departments that won't return your guns to you. If there is a before/after comparison you can point to showed registration beneficial, it is theater.
safeinOhio
(32,522 posts)VPC statistics show that in Hawaii, household gun ownership is estimated at 9.7 percent, lower than any other state. The reduced number of guns translates directly into a gunfire death rate of only 2.2 per 100,000 residents. Stated differently, fewer guns on the street mean fewer people being killed by gunfire every year.
This conclusion is contrary to the position of the National Rifle Association (NRA) which has for years contended that more, not fewer, guns should be in circulation to "ensure the safety of law-abiding citizens."
The most dangerous state is Louisiana, where an estimated 45.6 percent of households have at least one firearm. The death rate there per 100,000 is an astounding 19.04-almost ten times higher than the rate in Hawaii. Other states with high rates of gun ownership and corresponding high gunfire death rates include Alaska, Montana, Tennessee and Alabama.
Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/2006028
All guns must be registered within 72 hrs. of entering the state. As long guns are used in less than 15% of gun crimes, I would suggest not registering long guns. This takes away the government is coming to take away your gun argument.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)Does Hawaii have an organized crime and drug problem?
compare USVI, which has strict licensing and a low gun ownership rate , has a homicide rate is the highest in the US. It makes DC look like Japan. Neighboring Jamaica has UK style laws and has the same problem. USVI's other neighbor on the other hand, British Virgin Islands, is much lower.
Now compare El Paso with Thunder Bay, Ontario. El Paso's murder rate is 0.8 and Thunder Bay's is 4.5. El Paso's murder rate is even lower than Vancouver's.
VPC, Really?
NewMoonTherian
(883 posts)was committing crimes with automatics before the registry. The law is a superfluous intrusion on individual rights and is not effective. It's my hope to see that garbage reversed, the way concealed carry and now open carry are being restored.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Hope you continue.
DonP
(6,185 posts)discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,470 posts)The first of which is that laws regarding the intrastate activity of the people and the sale and purchase of private property are the pervue the states.
Full autos are not used often in crime simply because the intentions of most criminals are efficiently accomplished by a combination of concealed arms, surprise and fear. Full autos generally become an advantage only during a prolonged gunfight/battle and even then mostly among combatants of limited training. The proof of this is seen among the exploits of the Rhodesian Light Infantry "the Saints". The RLI found that firing 20 rounds semi-auto was more effective than firing 30 rounds on full-auto. There is also the added difficulty of carrying several 30 round mags while maintaining a low profile on your approach to and departure from the crime scene.
To the point of your post, (I think you can control crime by disarming non-law abiding citizens.) I am rather certain that this is already being done most places. When an individual is arrested, any firearms in their possession are retained by law enforcement. Generally, their residences are then searched and evidence, contraband and other illegal items removed.
Meiko
(1,076 posts)Good grief,the author of that piece of crap calls himself a writer?
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)he graduates from high school in 2013. It is from a prep boarding school newspaper. I'm guessing his parents are not among the 99 percent.
http://www.choate.edu/index.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choate_Rosemary_Hall
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)The author should have his First Amendment Permit revoked for incompetence, or lying, neither of which is covered by the First.
And "charged with a violent crime"? How about "convicted"? Or is that simply too high a bar for the author?
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)have to cut the kid some slack.
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,282 posts)Tuition Payment Schedule 2012-2013
Day Tuition and Fees
$37,840.00
Boarding Tuition and Fees
$48,890.00
http://www.choate.edu/admission/financial_tuitioninfo.aspx
Too bad they don't teach Journalism.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)kind of reminds me of A Seperate Peace and the movie "Dead Poets Society"
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,470 posts)Dead Poets Society was filmed at St. Andrew's School; 350 Noxontown Road, Middletown, Delaware, USA.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,470 posts)I wouldn't say strange, just limited. I'd guess those windows have an area of about Pi*r^2/25, where r is the distance to the windows.
Or about say 1% of the area of a sphere of the same radius.
Callisto32
(2,997 posts)all it got him was abandonment issues.
I've heard plenty of first-hand accounts from the insides of elite, boarding high schools. They sound pretty damn miserable, actually.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)It was a military boarding school.
There seemed to be three types of kids there. All had rich parents.
Kids whose families were having some sort of temporary issue that would be resolved in a year or two and then the kid would be back with his parents. They did OK but didn't really like the place.
A few kids wanted military careers and saw the school as a first step. There were very few of those. They did very well.
Most were kids that didn't fit in with their parents life-style. They dumped their kids on the school. They hated the school with a passion.
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,282 posts)Ok, so maybe they're not that different from public high schools.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Having to go to an expensive prep school newspaper to find support? That kid is really isolated from the real world.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Over 50% of the subjects had criminal records. Many of them were gang members or drug dealers. The study was rigged to try to make one think that guns are bullet magnets.
DonP
(6,185 posts)Sounds like they used the same technique.
Find an area with a concentrated criminal population to study, to skew the results. Treat the sample as representative of the entire universe. Extrapolate results to get the numbers you want and that the Joyce Foundations will pay you for. Publish in a journal that sounds official but most people won't recognize as not peer reviewed.
Yup, works every time.
ileus
(15,396 posts)I'm sure he CC'd at all times were allowed by law.
I remember what a pain in the ass it was in the 90's to get your CHP. You had to prove a need (most made up and excuse) in front of a judge before getting issued your permit. Plus 8 hours training or whatever it was....I took the training but never got off my lazy ass to head to the courthouse.
Then I moved in 2007 to Virginia, we bought a house in November and once I had a fixed address I went to the CH filled out the application, had my fingerprints scanned and waited for my CHP to arrive in the mail. A few weeks before it come in I bought my first CC firearm.
Atypical Liberal
(5,412 posts)I'd be annoyed if I had to take any classes or pay any fees to buy a firearm. In Alabama, and before when I lived in Georgia, I don't have to pay any fees or take any classes to buy firearms.
"Moreover, 49 states have laws allowing concealed-carry firearms in the United States. The main problem with this fact is that a majority of states only require a single test to demonstrate proficiency with a gun before giving a concealed-carry permit."
Again, not here in Alabama. Pay $10 and get your license. $20 if you want your picture on it.
Since CCW permit holders are hardly ever involved in crime, and hardly ever have their permits revoked, I don't see what the big deal is here.
"When you examine life in America today, the Second Amendment is simply outdated. When was the last time you had to defend your liberty with a loaded gun?"
Anyone who makes statements like this obviously believe that the government of the United States is the pinnacle of representative government and will forevermore be benign and beholden to the interests of the people.
"On the reform front, for starters, anyone who has been charged with a violent crimesuch as George Zimmerman, who was charged with battery of law enforcement officershould not be allowed to legally own a firearm, much less a concealed-carry permit. This is common sense: we dont want to be giving people with a tendency to resort to violence the ability to enact wider-spread violence."
OK, so the author here is advocating the nullification of a Constitutional right without due process of law. Instead of having to be convicted of a crime, it is sufficient for the author to merely be charged with a crime.
Uh, no thanks.
"Furthermore, concealing weapons should not be an acceptable practice. A study by the University of Pennsylvania shows that people with concealed weapons are four times more likely to be in a violent altercation than those who go about their day unarmed or with a visible weapon. Thus, if we want to reduce violence in society, we can start by capping the number of concealed carry permits given out by states. "
But we also know that people with CCW permits are hardly ever involved in crime and hardly ever have their permits revoked. There simply is no pervasive crime problem associated with concealed carry.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Deliverance and lynchings come to mind.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)Vermont and Wyoming are too much like Mayberry to bother.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)gejohnston
(17,502 posts)New York and New Jersey South. Most of the people where I live are from Queens, Brooklyn, and Long Island. Very few actual southerners. Wait, I avoid New York and New Jersey, carry on.
Atypical Liberal
(5,412 posts)All us scientists out there talking about purty mouths and stuff all the time, doncha know.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Spent a whole lot of time there. My late wife was from Huntsville and I all but lived there for several years while her parents were sick. Was even married up the road in Fay-ed-ville (that's how they pronounce it), Tenn.
So, except for the guns, you are OK.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)man credit for taking a stab at it.
I think he needs some encouragement after this beating
do you even hang around after you post?
or is this a hit and run?
Callisto32
(2,997 posts)Perhaps unsurprisingly, given the age of the writer, there is not.
I was going to write a nice letter, explaining why his views are out of line with American jurisprudence, complete with nice words and citations to places he can go to learn more.
However, there is no way to do this. You'd think for law grad-school level tuition, they would be able to afford to pay the journalism teaching staff to spend a little time reading and screening email, and passing along criticism and suggestions to the student journalists. Dealing with the public, and the myriad ways the react to your writing, is a big part of journalism, and if a school is going to claim itself "elite" status, you'd think they would actually try to do a better job of preparing their students for "real life" than my piss-poor public school in the middle of nowhere, where one cabinet manufacturer employes 30% of the working age males in the county, and chickens outnumber the people.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)they are paying for networking "with the right kind of people" and not have to pay for a nanny once the kid hits the teens.
Simo 1939_1940
(768 posts)Two or three shots and we'll have to deal with intoxicated gun reform - and we know what how obnoxious GR will be then!!