Warriors and sportsmen

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

One of my favorite stories in the world of shooting is from the 1912 Olympics. That year a young lieutenant from the US Army finished fifth in the first Olympic modern pentathlon. His name was George S. Patton.


The pentathlon included: Pistol shooting, 300 meter freestyle swimming, Fencing, Equestrian cross-country steeplechase and a Four kilometer cross-country foot race. Patton placed 21st in pistol shooting, sixth in swimming, and third in each of the other events. If not for the poor placement in shooting, Patton may have won the gold. His shooting score was probably an error. Out of 20 scored shots, more than half were bulls-eyes. The remaining shots were between 7 and 9 out of a possible 10 except for two. One of Patton's four groupings was so tight that two shots were ruled as complete misses. I feel that's highly unlikely.


Patton's reaction after the event:

"...the high spirit of sportsmanship and generosity manifested throughout speaks volumes for the character of the officers of the present day.

There was not a single incident of a protest or any unsportsmanlike quibbling or fighting for points which I regret to say marred some of the other civilian competitions at the Olympic Games.

Each man did his best and took what fortune sent like a true soldier, and at the end we all felt more like good friends and comrades than rivals in a severe competition, yet this spirit of friendship in no manner detracted from the zeal with which all strove for success."

Today, 100 years later, another man revealed his character in what he didn't say. Mitt Romney failed to correct some demented individual when she accused President Obama of treason. Both of these men are definitely characters, but only one actually had any character.

[oneshooter]

1. How about this one, from the 1921 National Matches.

http://www.bobrohrer.com/sea_stories/end_of_an_era.pdf

The story of 62yr old George R. Farr, and a 1000yd match.

Oneshooter

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

2. A great story :)

[oneshooter]

30. He set a record that hasn't been tied, much less broken.

All at the age of 62, using a issue rifle and issue ammunition. With half of a set of opera glasses(4X) as a spotting scope.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

35. Don't forget...

...iron sights and not in especially good light.

Again, a great story!

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

15. I picked up the name...

...Frankford Arsenal during my second read. It was located in my home town of Philadelphia. After the Frankford Arsenal closed the property was repurposed. It leases space to schools and businesses. My daughters went to school there.

[ellisonz]

3. So are the majority of gun nuts going to turn out for Mitt Romney?

[TheCowsCameHome]

4. Sure. He's lifetime NRA, dontcha know?

And he's a (R) on top of that.

[ellisonz]

8. What does that say about their character? n/t

[spin]

12. He got his lifetime membership in 2006 ...

As he was considering his first presidential run in 2006, Romney signed up for a lifetime NRA membership.
http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2012/04/13/romney-and-the-nra/

[TheCowsCameHome]

26. That's correct.

And I doubt if he knows which end of a gun to hold.

He's a shameless, pandering whore.......

[spin]

36. He actually has admitted that what you posted is right ...

Wooing Southerners,Monday Mitt Romney praises grits but admits he’s not much of a hunter
March 12th, 2012

by: CHARLES BABINGTON , Associated Press

MOBILE, Ala. – Wealthy New Englander Mitt Romney is trying to woo Southern voters with a mix of regional references that sometimes show self-deprecating humor, and sometimes are just plain awkward.

The GOP presidential contender admits that campaigning in Alabama, Mississippi and other Southern states is “a bit of an away game” for him. Unlike Kansas, however, he’s campaigning hard in those states, hoping essentially to tie or even steal a victory from more conservative rivals Rick Santorum and Newt Gingrich.

***snip***

Moments later, he showed good-natured self-awareness, saying he hoped to go hunting with an Alabama friend who “can actually show me which end of the rifle to point.” The audience, crammed under an awning for protection from the storm, laughed with appreciation.emphasis added

The former Massachusetts governor was mocked during his 2008 presidential bid for claiming he sometimes hunts “small varmints.” GOP candidates rarely refer to firearms without extolling the need to protect gun-owners’ rights.
http://www.firearmstoday.com/2012/03/12/wooing-southerners-mitt-romney-praises-grits-but-admits-hes-not-much-of-a-hunter/

[spin]

11. Why would any gun owner believe that Romney was more pro-gun than Obama?

Political positions of Mitt Romney

***snip***

Gun ownership

Romney has said "I support the right of individuals to keep and bear arms as guaranteed under the U.S. Constitution,"[181] though in past campaigns he has described himself as a proponent of gun control, and he fully supports a ban on assault weapons.[182]

Romney made several statements in his 2008 campaign regarding his proficiency with and support for firearms:

"I've hunted a number of times, of various types of small rodents."[187][citation needed]

"Shooting rabbits single shot 22 is pretty hard."[188]

"I have a gun of my own. I go hunting myself. I'm a member of the NRA and believe firmly in the right to bear arms. In our state . . . there are a series of laws restricting gun ownership in various ways. Over the past four years, I've worked very closely with the Gun Owners' Action League here, which is an affiliate of the NRA, and we've made some changes which I think they feel have been positive steps. And so you are going to see that, I think, hopefully, in other states as well, as they make progress, perhaps further than Massachusetts has."[183]

"So I'm a hunter and believe in Second Amendment rights, but I also believe that assault weapons are not needed in the public population."[189]

Romney later clarified that he did not 'own' a gun and said that one of his sons keeps two guns at the family vacation home in Utah.[185]

The Associated Press reported in April 2007 that Romney never sought a hunting license in any of the four states where he has resided. Romney replied by saying that he mainly hunts small game in Utah, which does not require a license.[190]emphasis added
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Mitt_Romney#Gun_ownership

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

17. The Saturday before elections...

...the Gun Nut Gazette notifies all gun nuts who to vote for and whether to even vote at all. We just do whatever we're told by management.

[Hoyt]

5. Patton was a racist - who cares how good he supposedly was at target shooting?

[Meiko]

10. Really

I didn't know that.

[Hoyt]

14. Check it out -- Google is your friend, as they tell me.

[Meiko]

40. I will

Thanks

[Meiko]

42. Interesting

http://www.wikipedia.org/

Seems to me he hated everyone.

Attitudes on race and nationality
Patton's attitude toward minorities varied depending on time and circumstance, with military necessity being of particular importance.
On black soldiers: "Individually they were good soldiers, but I expressed my belief at the time, and have never found the necessity of changing it, that a colored soldier cannot think fast enough to fight in armor."[111]


Patton stated that performance was more important than race or religious affiliation:[112] "I don't give a damn who the man is. He can be a nigger or a Jew, but if he has the stuff and does his duty, he can have anything I've got. By God! I love him."[112][113]
Later, Patton addressed a group of African-American tankers, saying:

Men, you're the first Negro tankers to ever fight in the American Army. I would never have asked for you if you weren't good. I have nothing but the best in my Army. I don't care what color you are as long as you go up there and kill those Kraut sons of bitches. Everyone has their eyes on you and is expecting great things from you. Most of all your race is looking forward to you. Don't let them down and damn you, don't let me down![114]
Patton also insisted on the assignment of some black officers as judges in military tribunals involving black defendants,[112] and he spent more time with his African-American aide, Sergeant Meeks, than with nearly anyone else while in Europe,[112] developing a relationship of mutual respect that transcended that of a general with his valet.


Patton disliked the British,[112] but appreciated Montgomery's organizational abilities more than either Eisenhower or Bradley did.[112]
Patton was horrified at what he found when his Third Army liberated Buchenwald concentration camp. Local German citizens claimed that they didn't know what was going on, though at least a few admitted to knowing of the atrocities but insisted they had been powerless to stop it. He ordered American troops to round up the approximately 2,000 local Germans and march them through the camps so they could see the atrocities firsthand.


Though many of his attitudes were common in his day, as with all of his opinions, he was often exceptionally blunt in his expression of them. He once wrote:
The difficulty in understanding the Russian is that we do not take cognizance of the fact that he is not a European, but an Asiatic, and therefore thinks deviously. We can no more understand a Russian than a Chinese or a Japanese, and from what I have seen of them, I have no particular desire to understand them except to ascertain how much lead or iron it takes to kill them. In addition to his other amiable characteristics, the Russian has no regard for human life and they are all out sons-of-bitches, barbarians, and chronic drunks.[115]


After reading the Koran and observing North Africans, he wrote to his wife, "Just finished reading the Koran – a good book and interesting." Patton had a keen eye for native customs and methods, wrote knowingly of local architecture, even rated the progress of word-of-mouth rumor in Arab country at 40–60 miles (64–97 km) a day. In spite of his regard for the Koran, he concluded, "To me it seems certain that the fatalistic teachings of Mohammad and the utter degradation of women is the outstanding cause for the arrested development of the Arab. . . . Here, I think, is a text for some eloquent sermon on the virtues of Christianity."[116][117]

[Hoyt]

45. "Patton hated everyone" - LOL. Come to think of it, assholes should be prohibited from owning guns.

I'd like to see some progressive Congressperson introduce legislation that assholes can't have guns. That would definitely get rid of a big chunk of gun owners.

We've found an interim step to removing guns in this country. Call it the "Patton Law."

[gejohnston]

47. Is there a rider that says

Ted Nugent and Don Trump have to give me theirs? Somebody else can have Cheney's and Wayne's.

[Clames]

51. So when are you turning in yours?

Of course that type of legislation is exactly the opposite of what a progressive person would ask for, I'm not surprised that you would champion it.

[Glaug-Eldare]

13. And of course we're all free of moribund prejudices

We've finally reached that stage of perfection where none of our attitudes will ever be regarded as naive, bigoted, baseless, or just plain dumb. LBJ was a racist, too, so we should probably get rid of the tainted Civil Rights Act, Voting Rights Act, and all of the viciously racist Great Society programs. First amendment was passed by a bunch of slave-owners, so let's ditch that, same with the Fourth and Fifth... Time for an audit to get rid of everything that was accomplished before we became perfect. Wait...

[Hoyt]

16. He was just another guy who might have been a Zimmerman w/o war.

[sarisataka]

19. Nope

He held them at gunpoint until everything was sorted out. No one was shot.

I will leave it to you and google to find the rest of the story.

[Rittermeister]

20. He's also supposed to have

strapped dead Mexicans to the side of his field car, an act which supposedly shocked Black Jack Pershing, his superior at the time. When talking about Patton, it's kind of important to remember that he was born in the 1880s, and raised by exiled southern aristocrats. He was very 19th century in his outlook, in ways good and bad. On the other hand, if we judge every historical figure, nobody born before 1900 is going to come up looking great. Thomas Jefferson owned slaves, Lincoln had some racist tendencies, Marx and Engels had some seriously whacko ideas on history and biology, etc.

[Lurks Often]

41. And yet again you show your ignorance

Sgt. William George Meeks was George Patton's personal orderly all through WWII and was one of the pallbearers at Patton's funeral. Every time Patton received a promotion, Sgt Meeks did as well, ending up as a Master Sergeant, the highest NCO rank in the US Army during that time period. M/Sgt Meeks went everywhere with Patton, including on leave and probably spent as much, if not more, time with Patton then anybody else during WWII. M/Sgt Meeks was African-American.

Sgt Thue P. Lee was Patton's personal cook from the time Patton landed in North Africa until Patton's death, Sgt Lee was Chinese-American

If Patton was such a racist, why did he allow these men to serve directly under him? As a general he could have easily had them transferred and certainly his wife would never had allowed M/Sgt Meeks to serve as a pallbearer if race was an issue to Patton.

Patton's views on race seemed to be consistent with society's views at the time and I base this on 20+ years of studying Patton and reading more then a dozen books about him.

[oneshooter]

43. Hoyt excels at showing both his ignorance and his biases.

[Clames]

52. Excels at it?

He soaks in it like it's a hot tub with a massage chair....

[Simo 1939_1940]

53. I've always been fascinated by the personality type

that lives to flaunt their ignorance. A relatively rare breed, but certainly a most amusing one.

[ileus]

6. Who didn't love Patton, what a great American hero.

The fact that he was a good target shooter is cream on top of it all.

[ellisonz]

7. Allied High Command

Clearly, someone was not paying attention during the movie!

[Rittermeister]

9. Probably had a few screws loose

Somewhat overrated. The movie was pretty blatant hagiography. His personal beliefs were about a century out of date: rejecting mental illness as cowardice, views on race and religion, etc. Pretty decent field commander.

FYI, I have it on fairly good authority that after the slapping incidents got out, there was some talk of jumping Patton if he came to a certain hospital.

[sarisataka]

22. Patton was a complete

Prima Donna and probably had more than a few loose screws.

His personal beliefs however were fairly standard for the time. Racism was rampant in the military; if anything Patton was more progressive than his contemporaries in regards to race.

After the incidents with shell shocked soldiers, Patton took it upon himself to learn about the issue. Later in the war his command had some of the best treatment of soldiers who suffered from mental issues.

As for overrated- Eisenhower listed Patton as the third best American General ranked low only due to Ike's views on Patton's operational planning ability

"George Patton was the most brilliant commander of an army in the open field that our or any other service produced. But his army was part of a whole organization and his operations part of a great campaign."

or

In an interview conducted for Stars and Stripes just after his capture, Field Marshal Gerd von Rundstedt summed up the predominant German view of the American general: "Patton," Rundstedt concluded simply, "he is your best."

[oneshooter]

25. "Patton was a complete Prima Donna and probably had more than a few loose screws."

No more of a prima donna than Montgomery was. And some would argue that both had a "few loose screws". Both excelled in what they did, and neither liked the other very much.
There was a basic difference in style. Monty would gather a huge amount of men and material before launching an overwhelming attack. Patton was a hack and slash commander. Able to hit the enemy where he was weakest and roll over him with armored forces.

Both worked well.

Oneshooter

[PavePusher]

27. Patton was cavalry, and Montgomery was infantry, in philosphy.

Or at least that's what I've come to believe.

[Rittermeister]

29. The British also had a wholly different set of problems

By the time Montgomery really got into power, the word was out from the British government to minimize casualties at all costs. They'd already lost a lot, even by '43. There's also been some conjecture that a number of the troops, who had been fighting since 1940, were showing signs of PTSD. Veteran British armored units performed somewhat listlessly in the Normandy campaign around Caen.

[jeepnstein]

31. Reminds me of a story...

an old vet told me once. He was in the Normandy invasion but in one of the later waves. He said that the British troops were "off" as he put it. As an example he described in great detail an atrocity a group of them committed against a German prisoner because their tea kettle got blown up. They built their fire on top of a bit of unexploded ordnance. He said the British men were already spent by the time they got to Normandy and everything they did took longer because of it. By comparison the Americans hadn't really experienced war the way the British had and seemed more eager. His observation was that once the British made it to the fight they were merciless in ways that kind of shocked him at times.

[Rittermeister]

32. Squares with my understanding

400,000 dead is a fair bit bigger chunk out of a nation of 40,000,000 than a nation of 130,000,000.

[jeepnstein]

33. Old Jim said...

it was all the bombing. Even when they were in their rear area they were at war. They were losing family members, homes, and were under the cloud of invasion. Then along came the Americans with their "can do" attitude and this really pissed them off quite a bit.

[Rittermeister]

34. I'm supposed to be going to talk to a local fellow

Was in it from Torch through Italy before he got hit. Supposedly had some readjustment problems - couldn't sleep in the same bed with his wife because he kept waking up in the middle of the night and thinking she was trying to kill him.

[sarisataka]

38. Don't get me going on Monty

Although I have discovered he and Patton had mutual respect for the others abilities. Their personal rivalry never let them admit it to each other.

Their styles of warfare are still debated today. Which is better, attrition until you can launch an overwhelming attack or the blitzkrieg thrust before your opponent can muster a defense. The answer I think is whatever works in the particular situation. American style warfare relying on high tech and mechanized mobility, even in WW2, tends to favor the fast offensive.

[Rittermeister]

28. He made a comment in his diary after the war

when he was military governor of Bavaria? Something like that? Anyway, it was in regards to displaced persons - refugees and ex-concentration camp prisoners, Jews, etc.

Others might “believe that the Displaced Person is a human being,” Patton wrote, but he knew “he is not.” In particular, he whispered to his diary, the Jews “are lower than animals.”

[sarisataka]

39. I find some of that difficult to believe

He did seem to have some anti-Semitic tendencies but,

Patton was horrified at what he found when his Third Army liberated Buchenwald concentration camp. Local German citizens claimed that they didn't know what was going on, though at least a few admitted to knowing of the atrocities but insisted they had been powerless to stop it. He ordered American troops to round up the approximately 2,000 local Germans and march them through the camps so they could see the atrocities firsthand.

He also faced criticism for opposing denazification and advocating dealing with the Soviets as a new enemy instead of ally.

Post war he did show signs of depression and erratic behavior. It is questioned if he was suffering from traumatic brain injury, though I have not found a reference to when/how he received a head injury.

[Rittermeister]

46. He wouldn't be the first consummate soldier to flounder in peacetime

That's at least partially how the Nazis got into power - tons of unemployed soldiers on the streets, unable to transition back to civilian life. As I recall, the second-highest ace of WWI ended up running half the Luftwaffe under Goering.

[sarisataka]

48. Agreement there

Patton had the political savvy of an irritated badger but without the same restraint. He also had the filter between his brain and mouth removed

Nevertheless, he was exactly the General that was needed for that war. If it wasn't for him at the Bulge, the war in Europe could have been extended for six months to a year and it is very doubtful anyone else could have pivoted an entire amry to change the axis of attack like he did.

[GreenStormCloud]

37. It would have been blowhards talking.

Nobody would have tried it for real.

[oneshooter]

44. well you have to admit the German High Command had no love for him either.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

18. The that the high command...

...didn't like him is just another good reason to like him.

[Callisto32]

21. Patton was an authoritarian asshole...

willing to shoot "his own men" for having that gall to demand that the .gov actually keep its contracts.

I don't care what he had to say about character as he proved his own to be brutish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army

[Lurks Often]

54. Only he wasn't in charge

Hoover gave the order to MacArthur, who gave the order to Patton's commanding officer, who gave the order to the troops under his command (3rd Cavalry Regt).

Blame should be placed on Hoover and MacArthur, although the troops were only called in when the police could not longer control the crowds and the protests turned violent.

[era veteran]

23. He gave my old man a ticket in N Africa for no necktie.

The racist stuff is bullshit. Damn near all white people were racists then. They just did not know it.
He was a great field commander with vision and drive. His abilities shortened the war, kept American (and German) deaths down and had a pragmatic sense of the immediate future politic.
As a tanker and the son of one I am glad he was on our side.

[sarisataka]

24. I take it your old man was an officer?

Patton was notoriously strict on the appearance of his officers and very lenient in the treatment of front line enlisted

[era veteran]

49. Yes, went to OCS in '39 or '40

Left a horse cav unit at Ft Riley.
Lots of changes in a couple of generations.
Dad never bitched about it, he was proud of it. He was wounded soon after. Went to England to get ready for the invasion and recuperate.

[Rittermeister]

50. Real horse soldier, huh?

My great granddad was in WWI in the Meuse-Argonne. Only member of my family to ever almost lose a thumb in a bayonet fight. . .yet.

[era veteran]

55. LOL, yet

Kept a log book on horses the same as done on all vehicles.
The old man lived through N Africa, Hedgerows, Hurtgen Forrest but the worst was 25 November 1950.