fifth grader finds loaded pistol on playground

[gejohnston]

reports it to responsible adults to secure it. Nobody got shot. The owner of the NNA mini revolver is reading the paper saying "oh shit"

http://www.clevelandbanner.com/view/full_story/18662625/article-Fifth-grader-finds-loaded-gun-on-playground--follows-safety-procedure?instance=homethirdleft

A very well-informed fifth-grader at Oak Grove Elementary School reportedly followed procedure when he found a loaded gun on the playground at the school Friday.
Officials have not released the name of the student, but are planning on presenting a certificate to him Monday, according to Bob Gault, media relations coordinator for the Bradley County Sheriff’s Office.
Deputy Jay Lawson, the school’s Resource Officer teaches students throughout the year by using the “Eddie Eagle” safety program.
Lawson had taught the students at the school to recognize danger through a “GunSafe” presentation, documented in the Eddie Eagle program which is associated with the National Rifle Association.

Now compare that truth with the following bullshit:
Compare what happened with VPC hysteria comparing Eddie with Joe Camel

The primary goal of the National Rifle Association's Eddie Eagle program is not to safeguard children, but to protect the interests of the NRA and the firearms industry by making guns more acceptable to children and youth. The Eddie Eagle program employs strategies similar to those utilized by America's tobacco industry—from youth "educational" programs that are in fact marketing tools to the use of appealing cartoon characters that aim to put a friendly face on a hazardous product. The hoped-for result is new customers for the industry and new members for the NRA.

http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/eddiekey.htm
Would Joe Camel tell the kids to leave the smokes on the ground and call the teachers and cops?
Eddie does no such thing and they knew it. As usual, they made shit up and sent out press releases.
Eddie Eagle is based on "Billy Hook" gun safety program created by the New Zealand Mountain Safety Council (but ran by the police). While Eddie does not teach "guns and shooting sports are good and wholesome", Billy Hook does.

[TheCowsCameHome]

1. The kid is smarter than the gun owner.

That's a sad fact.

[gejohnston]

5. why I'm not a fan of mini revolvers like this one

it drops out, you don't notice it because it is lightweight.

Then are are big city cops.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/02/call_it_lavatory_larceny_--_bu.html

[tularetom]

9. Makes a fantastic "snake gun" though

It handles .22 magnum shot shells just fine, fits in your pocket, has no recoil to speak of. You can keep the hammer down on the notch between chambers so you can have all 5 chambers loaded.

I'm not a big NRA fan but I do support any program that educates kids in the safe use of firearms.

[Callisto32]

6. No.

It's not.

You don't know how that firearm came to be there, so maybe try reserving judgment for a time after the facts come out, next time.

I'm getting a little sick of all the summary "convictions" around here, lately.

[TheCowsCameHome]

7. Maybe it fell out of the sky.

Be sick all you want, the fact is some asshole owner evidently didn't secure it.

[gejohnston]

10. would you care to discuss the second part of the OP?

VPC's disgusting lie comparing Eddie with Joe the Camel? And their false claims that it is a marketing ploy and not a safety program? Or about the gun control movement's dishonesty in general?

[TheCowsCameHome]

12. What for?

I have no interest what the VPC (whatever/whomever they are) says or does.

I do have a problem with loaded guns winding up where kids play, however.

[gejohnston]

13. a gun conrol group that opposed Eddie Eagle

which taught the kid how to do the right thing. That is the very important part. The point about the OP was not so much about the pistol, it was about anti-gun groups being dishonest about the program. The kid finding the pistol illustrates the fact that EE is not remotely like Joe the Camel and exposes VPC and Brady propaganda as the dishonest bullshit that it is.

Neither one of us are big on loaded guns showing up on school playgrounds, but that was not the point of the OP.

[TheCowsCameHome]

14. Eddie Eagle is probably a good thing

Other than that, the NRA can kiss my ass.

[oneshooter]

15. So you want to drop the police training, range management courses, hunter training,

competition shooting(including the US Olympic shooting team) and other courses and training they provide?
What you don't like is not the NRA. It's the political arm, the NRA-ILA. Don't dump the baby with the bath water.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Hoyt]

17. Some of the worst people/entities have managed to do a few good things.

Although, I can't imagine the NRA showing children shot in the head, teenagers taking their gunsters dad's tricked out guns

to school, guns stolen from an over accumulator used in crime, dishonest gun store owners, gun carriers who NRA would defend as fine law-abiding gun culture members right up until they shoot unarmed teenagers (and more than a few who will still defend them), and more.

[Glaug-Eldare]

31. And the Human Rights Campaign won't show pictures of...

sexually abused kids and dying AIDS patients. Why? Because they don't support or do those things anymore than NRA shoots kids and fences stolen guns.

[Hoyt]

33. It's part of gun safety training, just like when I was young and they showed wrecked cars

with teenagers bleeding or burned to death, disfigured, families destroyed, etc.

I guess gun culture is afraid of truth, especially when the NRA, etc., have a vested (ie, invested) interest in selling guns no matter what they are used for.

[friendly_iconoclast]

38. When and where are gory pictures part of gun safety training? Cite, please...

And remember, 'Hoytal infallibility' doesn't actually apply, so you'll have to come up with an actual source- or this
will be written off as another one of your many clangers...

[mvccd1000]

39. Gory pics do have their place in safety training.

I don't remember a single other thing about handling liquid oxygen, but I remember not to allow hydrocarbons anywhere near it. The few frames of the poor guy with most of the skin burned off his body at the end of the Navy's liquid oxygen safety film has imprinted that precaution into my mind quite vividly - and it's been 25 years since I've seen that film.

[Callisto32]

22. Nice ad hominem.

Stay classy.


Based upon the information you have, it is not possible to say who is smarter than whom. You can say "owner failed to secure his weapon, which is irresponsible" Responsibility and intelligence are two distinct categories, so we can also add moving the goal posts.

Stay classier.

[TheCowsCameHome]

24. Nice dodge.

The owner/possessor - a classic failure - again.

The gun never should have been there.

[Callisto32]

27. Dodge my ass.

You made a comment about intelligence. You couldn't back it up. I called you on it. There was nothing in the story that could have told you anything about the owner's intelligence.

You simply do not know HOW that weapon got there. We can ASSUME it was by the irresponsibility of the owner, taking the gun somewhere s/he was probably (hell, wouldn't it be funny if this was a boot piece of an "only one" there to talk to the kids) not legally allowed to take it, and then losing it. But you cannot KNOW that based on the information given in the article above. The weapon could have been stolen, and reported, but the reports aren't in the system yet, some kid could have broken the cheesy lock on his parent's green gun locker, and took it to school to show some friends, and dropped it. Sound far fetched? Maybe, but weirder stories walk into our office on an almost daily basis.

You and I simply do not know how that firearm came to be there. If asking you to admit that you do not know what you do not know makes me "sick," so be it.

If you have more info (maybe there has been an update, I don't waste time following such things), please share. If there is more evidence available to establish some facts, I'll concede them.

[TheCowsCameHome]

28. Bottom line -

There evidently was an irresponsible gun owner / handler / carrier/ possessor.

The loaded gun should not have been there.

Care to deny that?

[Callisto32]

29. You say evidently.

But you have very little evidence.

There evidently was an irresponsible gun owner / handler / carrier/ possessor.

Or a thief, and an inefficient police department.

What you don't seem to understand is that I am not confirming or denying anything until there are facts that I can use to do so. We can play "clearly..." all day long and it doesn't amount to a shred of evidence, because, sometimes, weird shit happens.

Since you provided no additional facts, all the same possibilities of how that firearm got there are still on the table.

Start providing evidence, and I'll start removing options of how it got there.

Care to provide evidence?

[TheCowsCameHome]

32. See post #7

...or maybe just it grew out of ground. Surely no human placed it there.

PS - I recognize cop and lawyer talk when I see it.

[Glaug-Eldare]

2. As much as the NRA irks me, that's one program I wholeheartedly support

Though I'd really love for grassroots groups to get more involved in gun safety instead of leaving it up to the NRA.

[rfranklin]

3. Very touching , but the NRA is run by right wing assholes...

And they are pretty close to clinically insane--

Wayne LaPierre of the National Rifle Association uncovered a "massive Obama conspiracy" during his remarks at CPAC, explaining that the administration hasn't done anything on gun rights in the first term intentionally in order to lull gun owners in a false sense of security and keep them from voting so that he can win a second term and finally "destroy the Second Amendment"

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/category/organizations/nra

[oneshooter]

4. So you are saying that the "Eddie Eagle" program should be trashed because of that?

It is the most effective non political safety program around. And you hate the NRA so much that you would trash can it?
Your hatred of the NRA blinds you to the good programs, training, range management, safety, that they have.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[rfranklin]

11. Keep the program, ditch the NRA...

and I am all for it! They were originally a sensible organization promoting reasonable regulation of gun ownership. Now they are a right wing political group agitating against Democrats whether they propose any gun legislation or not.

[Hoyt]

18. Many of Non-NRAers could teach a gun safety course - you don't need to fuck with guns

would be a good starter for the young so maybe they grow up with a different view on where guns are appropriate, etc.

Sorry, replied to wrong poster.

[Glaug-Eldare]

19. I think it's a shame there isn't more cooperation on this point

Right-wing militiamen, sobbing hoplophobes, fence-sitters, everybody and their dog agrees that little kids need to be taught that guns can be dangerous, and they shouldn't play with them. Getting gun safety education away from the NRA monopoly is long overdue. I'm trying to encourage the local gun group to reach out to schools, scouting, and other youth groups to teach gun SAFETY, not marksmanship.

[Hoyt]

20. That makes a lot of sense. Good luck.

[DanM]

25. Marksmanship is a VERY important component of gun safety.

If you are not accurate when using a gun, you pose a greater safety risk to others.

Leaving marksmanship out of gun safety training is like omitting the parts about driving in one's own lane, handling intersections, changing lanes, etc. from driver safety training. You can't just teach potential drivers where their safety belts, turn signals, and hazard lights are and call their driver "safety" training complete.

Please reconsider your thought process which divorces marksmanship from gun safety. That thought process is incorrect.

[Glaug-Eldare]

30. I'd rather reach a larger audience

A lot of parents here absolutely don't want their kids touching guns, but won't object to learning safety, the four rules, what to do if you find a gun, or if somebody else is acting dangerously with one. Their parents might never sign a permission slip for their children to be in the same room with a firearm, let alone touch one, but they deserve instruction in safety as much as the hunter's son up in the mountains. By only teaching safety, you can reach that audience that may never touch a gun in their lives. Marksmanship training is good for shooters -- gun safety training is good for everybody.

As for the driver training comparison, even people who will never drive a car in their lives ought to look both ways before crossing the street.

[DanM]

34. I get what you are saying...

...about some parents not wanting to think about their little Jane or Dick touching guns, much less firing them, BUT:

Parents who have an "abstinence" approach to gun education are being as unrealistic as those having the same approach to sex education. In either case, the safe assumption is that Jane and Dick are GOING TO get other people's equipment in their hands, and something probably is going to go off. Therefore, teaching them about marksmanship is as important as teaching them about birth control.

[Glaug-Eldare]

35. I think you're still missing the idea

It's a fact of life that guns exist, there are bad people with guns, there are careless people with guns, there are curious kids who will find guns, there are children who will encounter guns, period. But you don't have to teach little kids "put your hands here and here, look through the sights like this..." for them to know how to safely deal with those situations. Safety around guns is not the same thing as the safe use of guns, and is appropriate for all children of almost any age or parental opinion. If gun safety is required to incorporate marksmanship, you've left out millions of kids who would benefit from instruction, but whose parents refuse (and are perfectly entitled to refuse) to allow their children to handle firearms. That's a parent's prerogative, and gun safety education has to accommodate it, not ignore it.

For example, if a kid finds an abandoned gun in a playground, I don't care whether he knows how to pick it up and use it. I care that he knows better than to touch it, and will tell an adult instead. If he finds my rifle at home, I don't care if he knows how to operate the bolt and zero the sights -- I care that he knows not to touch it without my permission and supervision.

EDIT: I'm referring to bringing gun safety education to places where it didn't exist before, not bringing kids who are interested in shooting to a special class. This is more in line with what was proposed here regarding mandatory safety education in public schools than with a group of scouts electing to learn rifle shooting.

[DanM]

36. Oh, I got your idea, I just don't think it's realistic...

...for parents to think Jane and Dick are never going to, for example, go with their friends on private property or to a gun range and handle and fire guns without Jane or Dick letting their parents know.

In a world where kids will tell their parents beforehand when they are going with their friends to fire guns recreationally, then the assumption that gun safety doesn't have to include marksmanship is valid. But that world doesn't exist, and I stand by my common-sense, prudent philosophy that youngsters should be equipped with as much education as you can give them on gun safety, to include marksmanship. Some parents may not like it that their Jane or Dick would do that without letting them know, but it is better that Jane or Dick come home safely without having injured themselves or others, or themselves getting injured, due to poor marksmanship.

Just as some parents may not like it that sex education should include education on birth control, but that is the common-sense and prudent thing to do. Most kids are not going to let their parents know beforehand, on many, many things they impulsively engage in. Wise parents are not closed-minded to the possibilities, and err on the side of more education rather than less education, even when the activity being educated about wouldn't be their personal cup of tea.

Parents who say "I refuse to allow my children to <insert whatever you want here>" may have the prerogative to say that, but the world is full of examples of pregnant children and children injured in recreational shooting, for want of education that was available and free or very inexpensive.

[jeepnstein]

26. We teach safety first then marksmanship in Scouting.

I just finished a range day where I taught several hundred Cub Scouts basic B.B. gun marksmanship. Most of them had never touched any firearm in their lives, and probably never will outside of Scouting. We stress that children should never handle a gun of any type without appropriate adult supervision. The reward for sitting through the lecture and complying with the rather strict range rules is they get to shoot.

Kids listen to adults a lot more than we think they do. I'm a real safety geek with firearms around them. And I demand that all my adult helpers stick to the rules as well. We keep it simple and direct.

They are also dangerously curious. A kid who has never been exposed to firearms, except on TV, doesn't really know anything. What do you think the first thing they do is when they pick up a gun for the first time? Yep, they pull the trigger. That's why Eddie Eagle is so important.

One of my boys recently had a school mate who was choking. He started the Heimlich maneuver and sent someone for help. The school staff was stunned when he told them he learned about doing it that way in Scouts. Yeah, they listen and will do it right if you teach them right.

[oneshooter]

37. Why don't you contact the VPC or Brady Inc. and ask them what safety programs

they have for kids.
Let us know what they tell you.

Good Luck

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[gejohnston]

8. I missed the clinicly insane

Not a big fan of LaPierre myself. When he isn't saying stupid shit, he says smart shit in a very stupid way.

BTW, Wayne is not the president of the NRA. He is just the second in charge and has the biggest mouth.

[Meiko]

16. Well

at least no kids were hurt.

[mvccd1000]

21. I wonder if they'll fire him?

Oh, wait... that only happens to County employees.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=39074

[DanM]

23. The VPC's lack of credibility isn't well-known?